Is there anything immune to Kralkatorrik's corruption?

[Rognik.2579]

Konig Des Todes.2086The Nightmare Court didn't know about Mordremoth. Nor did they create the Nightmare - Faolain was the first to encounter the Nightmare, and the first Courtiers (willingly?) succumbed to it.I'm not sure about this. Some of the dialogue from Season 2 Episode 7 seemed to hint at the formation of the Nightmare Court, with Faolain being quite interested in their "meeting" and bringing friends along to go meet the centaurs. Faolain was certainly the eldest of the Nightmare Court, which is probably how she gained her position in the Court. It hinted that the Nightmare was already whispering in their proverbial ears.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The

White Stag

actually proves that the Dream has nothing to do with Mordremoth. Moreso,

the player character gets a Wyld Hunt to kill Mordremoth

, so why would Mordremoth give the Pact Commander the task of killing himself?

If you look at the sequence of events, Mord is not supposed to wake yet but Scarlet believes that it's time and took it upon herself to wake him and because of what she did, Mord became a priority for the Pact. In all the Elder Dragons, he's the one who has not been active. Even the water dragon showed movement if that certain cinematic is to be believed.

How does the Pact's priority at all be relevant to the Wyld Hunts a sylvari receive? You're trying to detract from the topic.

When the PC Sylvari spoke to the Pale Tree, she directs the PC to kill Zaithan. Why would she do that? Why not kill Mord first? See, this Wyld Hunt is a ruse by Mord to task the Sylvaris to kill the other Elder Dragons first. These whole killing the Elder Dragon started with Thrahearne's Wyld Hunt and amplified if the Commander is a Sylvari. By the time the Commander face Mordremoth, he would have absorbed the other Dragons' power and would have been unstoppable. In a way, we can thank Scarlet for waking Mord and took him out next.

Nothing about the Dream or Nightmare imply they're someone's consciousness - or subconsciousness. I think you're taking their names too literally.

Right. They just like to call it "Dream" and "Nightmare" for whatever reason without any representation of what it really is. I highly doubt that.

The Nightmare Court didn't know about Mordremoth. Nor did they create the Nightmare - Faolain was the first to encounter the Nightmare, and the first Courtiers (willingly?) succumbed to it.

Here's what the wiki has to say;"Within the Dream is a nightmare, tugging at the heart of each sylvari. Some sylvari are more susceptible than others, and those who have succumbed to the nightmare have formed the Nightmare Court, established by Secondborn Cadeyrn and led by the Firstborn Faolain."

So yes, they are aware the existence of the nightmare thus they named their organization after it. Later we found out from Caithe that the nightmare is Mordremoth's influence.

That wiki line (which, btw, is fan written) doesn't talk about the origins of the Dream. It talks about the origin of Sylvari. Same with Caithe's line. Nothing about the Dream's origin in either part.

Caithe's line was from the game, not some "fan written."

Laranthir never mentions corruption. That only furthers my argument and harms yours.

Other Sylvaris simply attacked other Pact member without being corrupted? Really now?

Zhaitan did corrupt the living - Necromancer Rissa and Corporal Kellach were both alive and corrupted. He also corrupts plants. While the Elder Dragons show a clear preference of what they want to corrupt and how, they also show that they can corrupt anything equally. Even Mordremoth corrupts animals and corpses himself. Even Jormag corrupts corpses. Even Primordus corrupts the living.

Kellach corruption was due to an artifact was given to him by a pirate witch. He was cursed, not corrupted, not yet at least, and more than likely complete the process by dying. I'm not sure about Rissa's kind of corruption, but she might also possess a curse artifact of Zhaitan.

Sylvari were resistant to all dragon corruption. We never once see anything resist any dragon's corruption. The only resisting we see is Jora ignoring the whispering temptations of Drakkar (not corruption). Zhaitan corrupts plants, so why would he be unable to corrupt sylvari if the only thing that kept them from being corrupted was their plant nature? That makes no sense.

Again from the wiki;"Sylvari cannot be corrupted by most Elder Dragons, but simply die instead. This has been revealed to be the Pale Tree's doing. Ogden Stonehealer hinted that this was caused by their ties to the Dream of Dreams. The only exception to this immunity is the influence of Mordremoth, the Elder Dragon of plants and mind, whose corrupting influence transforms a sylvari into a Mordrem Guard."

You seem to have an incapability to understand that I was meaning "suffering from dragon corruption". "Corrupt" in of itself has many definitions. And you're strawmaning here, using a completely different definition of the word in an attempt to make me seem inept.

The Dragon's corruption is no different than Scarlet reprogramming the Watchknights. Glint's escape from corruption is no different than restoring the Watchknights original programming. Where's the strawman?

The Blighting Pale Tree itself is Caithe's fear - her fear of how sylvari would be if they succumb in whole to Mordremoth. The BPT's words are not temptation, they are a reflection of Caithe's fear of the Pale Tree becoming blighted; the words exchanged by the Blighted Pale Tree is how Caithe believes the Pale Tree would act were it taken by Mordremoth.

And I would guess that you also believe that the Blighted Canach is his fear. That's hard to believe since he mocks that creation by saying;Canach: Is this a joke? My will has always been my own. I seek no master and never have. I am no one's servant.

When Kralkatorrik first took flight, there were no clouds. Yet the wings still blocked out the sky.

In the end of Path of Fire, you can see him flying covered with clouds and lightning. He's features are mostly shadows.

Given EoD's description, Glint grew between GW1 and GW2 as well (her wingspan the size of her outer sanctum, her claw as large as an asura). But I fail to see what that has to do with Jennah creating a smaller-than-actual-size illusion.

There's no point to make a small one if Kral is not even that big.

The Mordrem Pods/Blighting Pods are used to house the living and dead so that completely separate minions can be formed off of the body being used as a template. The Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls have the actual body as part of themselves. They are corrupted corpses. Hell, we even had a developer (Scott McGough) outright said such:

Mordremoth’s corruption is analogous to weeds and moss invading a garden and totally taking it over. The invader (for the purposes of this analogy, the weeds and moss) claims the nutrients and resources that would otherwise go to the existing plants, surrounds and envelops the native plants and digests them/converts them into more raw material it can use to grow, and then spreads outward, colonizing as it goes. The invader continues to get stronger and expand while the native plants are choked out/starved/digested and wither away. This sort of overwhelming growth/colonization can also be seen in the bodies of its minions like the Mordrem Wolf or Mordrem Troll (who were originally something else before they became Mordremoth minions—I’d call out an analogy to Alan Moore’s excellent classic Swamp Thing story, “The Anatomy Lesson,” where the creature’s original body is slowly replaced by plant material until you have essentially a plant version of the original that has the same general form but not necessarily the same function); there are also things like the Mordrem Vine Crawlers and Tendril Roots, which Mordy basically crafted from scratch using the plant material at hand.

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/2#post6175329

Mordrem were created using either corrupted plant material (the vast majority) or corrupted corpses (Wolves and Trolls, maybe a few others unclear to us).

It seems that they failed to put that in game. Especially those wolves, they are pure plants. As for the Troll, this one is different because it is a combination of Zhaitan's and Mord's powers. Those trolls are dead trolls risen from the dead.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:This is actually proof that Almorra is an unreliable narrator, in fact.

Here is the reason why

. We go to the spot where Almorra's warband was corrupted. It's a hero challenge.

And it is on the edge of the Dragonbrand.

That Hero Point is surrounded by brands.

Edit: Reference:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Lowland_Burns_map.jpg

The edge of the brand is not even five feet from the commune point. Unless you're saying they were all dogpiling on top of each other, if that commune point was the center of the warband, then Almorra could have easily been standing to the side.

Alternatively, Almora could have been in the enclave there. Edge of Destiny makes it a point of Destiny's Edge dodging Kralkatorrik's corruption by dodging into niches and enclaves.

Nah, that point is where Almorra was standing.

[Pax.3548]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Here's what the wiki has to say;"Within the Dream is a nightmare, tugging at the heart of each sylvari. Some sylvari are more susceptible than others, and those who have succumbed to the nightmare have formed the Nightmare Court, established by Secondborn Cadeyrn and led by the Firstborn Faolain."

So yes, they are aware the existence of the nightmare thus they named their organization after it. Later we found out from Caithe that the nightmare is Mordremoth's influence.

I think you're confusing the sylvari nightmare with mordremoth's influence. So far we haven't learn if the nightmare comes from mordremoth somehow, all we know is that he took advantage of the dream and got to corrupt both "good" sylvaris and the one from the nightmare court. Besides the nightmare existed even before mordremoth awoke from slumber. Even more, some members of the nightmare court opposed mordy, if the nightmare truly came from him, they would worship him instead of fighting him.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Rognik.2579 said:

Konig Des Todes.2086The Nightmare Court didn't know about Mordremoth. Nor did they create the Nightmare - Faolain was the first to encounter the Nightmare, and the first Courtiers (willingly?) succumbed to it.I'm not sure about this. Some of the dialogue from Season 2 Episode 7 seemed to hint at the formation of the Nightmare Court, with Faolain being quite interested in their "meeting" and bringing friends along to go meet the centaurs. Faolain was certainly the eldest of the Nightmare Court, which is probably how she gained her position in the Court. It hinted that the Nightmare was already whispering in their proverbial ears.

Originally, Cadeyrn was just wanting to be free from Ventari's teachings. This devolved into succumbing to Nightmare. What we saw was indeed the formation of the Nightmare Court before it was called such, and also before they were succumbed to the Nightmare. Cadeyrn's persona differs pretty greatly between pre and post-Nightmare Court creation. As do some other sylvari who fall to Nightmare differ greatly from their original personality.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:When the PC Sylvari spoke to the Pale Tree, she directs the PC to kill Zaithan. Why would she do that? Why not kill Mord first? See, this Wyld Hunt is a ruse by Mord to task the Sylvaris to kill the other Elder Dragons first. These whole killing the Elder Dragon started with Thrahearne's Wyld Hunt and amplified if the Commander is a Sylvari. By the time the Commander face Mordremoth, he would have absorbed the other Dragons' power and would have been unstoppable. In a way, we can thank Scarlet for waking Mord and took him out next.

The Pale Tree was not the one to direct the PC to kill Zhaitan. She merely confirmed the PC's question. The first one to posture the Shadow of the Dragon representing an Elder Dragon was in fact the PC themselves, confirmed first by Mender Serimon at the end of the sylvari tutorial. The Pale Tree does not create any Wyld Hunt, the Dream does. Mender Serimon, Caithe, and the Pale Tree all say the same thing, with Serimon being first. And when the PC kills Zhaitan, they feel their Wyld Hunt end.

Also, Trahearne's Wyld Hunt never dealt with killing an Elder Dragon. It was Caithe who had the shared Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan (and she, too, mentions her Wyld Hunt being over).

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Right. They just like to call it "Dream" and "Nightmare" for whatever reason without any representation of what it really is. I highly doubt that.

Given that to the sylvari, they call being born "awakening", any relation to the Dream of Dreams and actual dreaming would be the sylvari dreaming, not Mordremoth.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

The Nightmare Court didn't know about Mordremoth. Nor did they create the Nightmare - Faolain was the first to encounter the Nightmare, and the first Courtiers (willingly?) succumbed to it.

Here's what the wiki has to say;"Within the Dream is a nightmare, tugging at the heart of each sylvari. Some sylvari are more susceptible than others, and those who have succumbed to the nightmare have formed the Nightmare Court, established by Secondborn Cadeyrn and led by the Firstborn Faolain."

So yes, they are aware the existence of the nightmare thus they named their organization after it. Later we found out from Caithe that the nightmare is Mordremoth's influence.

They knew about the Nightmare. They did not know about Mordremoth. The entire point of killing Wynne was to prevent Faolain and others from knowing about Mordremoth.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

That wiki line (which, btw, is fan written) doesn't talk about the origins of the Dream. It talks about the origin of Sylvari. Same with Caithe's line. Nothing about the Dream's origin in either part.

Caithe's line was from the game, not some "fan written."

The line which I said was fan written wasn't the quote of Caithe but the one before it. Besides which, Caithe doesn't talk about the origin of Nightmare there, like you proclaim she does.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Other Sylvaris simply attacked other Pact member without being corrupted? Really now?

Yes, as I explained practically ten times over.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Kellach corruption was due to an artifact was given to him by a pirate witch. He was cursed, not corrupted, not yet at least, and more than likely complete the process by dying. I'm not sure about Rissa's kind of corruption, but she might also possess a curse artifact of Zhaitan.

He was corrupted. Otherwise risen wouldn't be following her around. Rissa is outright stated to be corrupted by multiple NPCs.

The "cursed artifacts" all lead to corruption. That's their so-called curse. We even see more of them in Ossuary of Unquiet Dead, slowly corrupting corpses.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Sylvari were resistant to all dragon corruption. We never once see anything resist any dragon's corruption. The only resisting we see is Jora ignoring the whispering temptations of Drakkar (not corruption).

Zhaitan corrupts plants,

so why would he be unable to corrupt sylvari if the only thing that kept them from being corrupted was their plant nature? That makes no sense.

Again from the wiki;"Sylvari cannot be corrupted by most Elder Dragons, but simply die instead. This has been revealed to be the Pale Tree's doing. Ogden Stonehealer hinted that this was caused by their ties to the Dream of Dreams. The only exception to this immunity is the influence of Mordremoth, the Elder Dragon of plants and mind, whose corrupting influence transforms a sylvari into a Mordrem Guard."

You realize that only supports me, not you with your claims of "Zhaitan couldn't corrupt sylvari because they were plants".

I outright stated, several times over, that the sylvari's protection came via the Pale Tree. Hell, I quoted ArenaNet saying that.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The Dragon's corruption is no different than Scarlet reprogramming the Watchknights. Glint's escape from corruption is no different than restoring the Watchknights original programming. Where's the strawman?

It's cmpletely different. Watchknights, from the get go, do not have free will. Reprogramming Watchknights does not physically change their metal into a completely different compositional element. Dragon corruption both enslaves one's will, overriding it with the Elder Dragon's, and turn their flesh into something else. Or in the case of corruption of landscape, just turns it into something else (such as crystal, ice, stone, plant, or lava).

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:And I would guess that you also believe that the Blighted Canach is his fear. That's hard to believe since he mocks that creation by saying;Canach: Is this a joke? My will has always been my own. I seek no master and never have. I am no one's servant.

Yes, it is his fear. But Canach is presented as too strong willed to be hindered by his own fear.

And that sure as hell isn't temptation.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

When Kralkatorrik first took flight, there were no clouds. Yet the wings still blocked out the sky.

In the end of Path of Fire, you can see him flying covered with clouds and lightning. He's features are mostly shadows.

That has no relevance to the description in Edge of Destiny. Besides which, at the beginning of the cinematic we can see Kralkatorrik's wings clear as day (minus the intentional blurriness of shadow to keep Kralkatorrik's full appearance a mystery) because there's no clouds around him when he begins taking flight.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:There's no point to make a small one if Kral is not even that big.

Yes it is. Do you not know how illusions of depth and distance work? Never taken an art class, I see.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:It seems that they failed to put that in game. Especially those wolves, they are pure plants. As for the Troll, this one is different because it is a combination of Zhaitan's and Mord's powers. Those trolls are dead trolls risen from the dead.

Wolves are pure plant? You never looked at the Mordrem Wolves model. Look at its legs, tail, and underbelly.

That's called fur and flesh.

And corrupting corpses is not unique to Zhaitan, despite people constantly claiming so. Even if it were, that doesn't change the fact that Mordrem Trolls are not plants like you claimed.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Nah, that point is where Almorra was standing.

Says nothing but your ass.

[Athrenn.9468]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Nah, that point is where Almorra was standing.

Says nothing but your kitten.

Excuse me, sir. I'll have you know that my kitten is an indispensable source of lore knowledge.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Pax.3548 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Here's what the wiki has to say;"Within the Dream is a nightmare, tugging at the heart of each sylvari. Some sylvari are more susceptible than others, and those who have succumbed to the nightmare have formed the Nightmare Court, established by Secondborn Cadeyrn and led by the Firstborn Faolain."

So yes, they are aware the existence of the nightmare thus they named their organization after it. Later we found out from Caithe that the nightmare is Mordremoth's influence.

I think you're confusing the sylvari nightmare with mordremoth's influence. So far we haven't learn if the nightmare comes from mordremoth somehow, all we know is that he took advantage of the dream and got to corrupt both "good" sylvaris and the one from the nightmare court.

Not a confusion but simply adding the evidence so far;

• New PC Sylvari fought the Shadow of the Dragon in the Dream during Fighting the Nightmare
• Caithe confirmed the Sylvari's connection to Mordremoth
• Fighting the Nightmare is all about severing the connection to Mord
• The Priory has a book that described the Shadow of the Dragon as Mord's Champion
• Fighting Mord's champion is Fighting the Nightmare
• The same dragon champion attacked the Grove that weakened the Pale Tree

Besides the nightmare existed even before mordremoth awoke from slumber.

Not sure about that.

Even more, some members of the nightmare court opposed mordy, if the nightmare truly came from him, they would worship him instead of fighting him.

Not every follower stays once they've learned the truth of what they are following.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Not a confusion but simply adding the evidence so far;

• New PC Sylvari fought the Shadow of the Dragon in the Dream during Fighting the Nightmare
• Caithe confirmed the Sylvari's connection to Mordremoth
• Fighting the Nightmare is all about severing the connection to Mord
• The Priory has a book that described the Shadow of the Dragon as Mord's Champion
• Fighting Mord's champion is Fighting the Nightmare
• The same dragon champion attacked the Grove that weakened the Pale Tree

A Treatise on the Shadow of the Dragon is clearly written post-The World Summit (or around then), as the line states that the Shadow of the Dragon has been seen in the world. This means that they only connected it to Mordremoth after Mordremoth's rise.

That, in turn, means that Mordremoth might have seen something in the Dream and decided to copy it, rather than the Shadow of the Dragon having always been Mordremoth's influence. And if that's not the case, then we might never had had Nightmare in the tutorial - Caithe could have lied to us, and the title be misleading to further that lie for the eventual sylvari reveal.

The fact that Nightmare Courtiers are enthralled to the Nightmare, but they are actively fighting Mordremoth's enthrallment is proof that the Nightmare is not Mordremoth's influence, even if the two are close enough to be confused for one another.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Besides the nightmare existed even before mordremoth awoke from slumber.

Not sure about that.

Not sure about it? There's no denying it. The Nightmare existed long before 1319 AE. Mordremoth woke up in 1326 AE. Even if you want to argue that Mordremoth created it when Scarlet roused him, she did so in 1320/1321 AE, over a year after Faolain was already Grand Duchess of the Nightmare Court.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Even more, some members of the nightmare court opposed mordy, if the nightmare truly came from him, they would worship him instead of fighting him.

Not every follower stays once they've learned the truth of what they are following.

Duchess Chrysanthea: (laugh) Until then, see you in your nightmares.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Duchess_Chrysanthea

The Nightmare Court still follow the Nightmare, even after the events of Heart of Thorns. But they're fighting Mordremoth.

You cannot serve and fight something at the same time.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Not a confusion but simply adding the evidence so far;

• New PC Sylvari fought the Shadow of the Dragon in the Dream during Fighting the Nightmare
• Caithe confirmed the Sylvari's connection to Mordremoth
• Fighting the Nightmare is all about severing the connection to Mord
• The Priory has a book that described the Shadow of the Dragon as Mord's Champion
• Fighting Mord's champion is Fighting the Nightmare
• The same dragon champion attacked the Grove that weakened the Pale Tree

A Treatise on the Shadow of the Dragon

is clearly written post-The World Summit (or around then), as the line states that the Shadow of the Dragon has been seen in the world. This means that they only connected it to Mordremoth

after Mordremoth's rise

.

That, in turn, means that Mordremoth might have seen something in the Dream and decided to copy it, rather than the Shadow of the Dragon having always been Mordremoth's influence. And if that's not the case, then we might never had had Nightmare in the tutorial - Caithe could have lied to us, and the title be misleading to further that lie for the eventual sylvari reveal.

The fact that Nightmare Courtiers are enthralled to the Nightmare, but they are actively fighting Mordremoth's enthrallment is proof that the Nightmare is not Mordremoth's influence, even if the two are close enough to be confused for one another.

In the PC Sylvari dream;Caithe: I must speak with you. The Dream is in great jeopardy.Caithe: Be brave, sapling. There is a darkness here, a poison intruding on the Dream. You must show courage, and be a beacon in the darkness.Caithe: This poison spreads hatred and anger. We must fight it.PC: Who caused has this?Caithe: An evil group called the Nightmare Court.PC: Why attack the Dream?Caithe: Because the Dream shapes us all before we awaken, just as it is now shaping you. A darkness within it takes root in our own hearts and becomes a lasting shadow there.

Then we see the Shadow of the Dragon -- which Dragon? Mordremoth.

Caithe calls the Shadow as nightmare;Caithe: Destroy the nightmare before it takes root.

Then killing the dragons becomes the PC's Wyld Hunt. It's all too convenient.

• From Point of Interest 18;"Scott and Bobby recommend a playthrough of the story as a sylvari to experience the full psychological horror of Mordremoth’s power. The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations ... Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence."

Not sure about it? There's no denying it. The Nightmare existed long before 1319 AE. Mordremoth woke up in 1326 AE. Even if you want to argue that Mordremoth created it when Scarlet roused him, she did so in 1320/1321 AE, over a year after Faolain was already Grand Duchess of the Nightmare Court.

Just because Mordremoth is physically sleeping doesn't mean his mind does. We've witnessed that he can control his body and mind independently. While his dragon form fights the Pact, the Commander is fighting his mind.

Elder Dragons suspected to have existed even before 10,000 BE.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

Even more, some members of the nightmare court opposed mordy, if the nightmare truly came from him, they would worship him instead of fighting him.

Not every follower stays once they've learned the truth of what they are following.

Duchess Chrysanthea: (laugh) Until then, see you in your nightmares.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Duchess_Chrysanthea

The Nightmare Court still follow the Nightmare, even after the events of Heart of Thorns. But they're fighting Mordremoth.

You cannot serve and fight something at the same time.

Here's the full exchange;Duchess Chrysanthea: You fought well. We should do this sort of thing more often.Commander: Thanks, but I'm going to need a minute before we take on another dragon.Duchess Chrysanthea: (laugh) Until then, see you in your nightmares.

Just because she mentioned "nightmares" doesn't necessarily means she's still following the Nightmare or better yet, that the Nightmare Court still exists.

The way she laughs before speaking makes her words a mockery of the Commander's pain and suffering. She's implying that the Commander's nightmares are the Elder Dragons.

As far as we can tell, the Nightmare Court is in total disarray after working with Scarlet and what happened to Faolin.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

In the PC Sylvari dream;-snip rest-

You're failing to acknowledge that Caithe was intentionally hiding knowledge about Mordremoth. This makes her words untrustworthy. It's called Unreliable Narrator, a tactic that ArenaNet utilizes a lot. The narrator is unreliable, either because they're wrong or they're intentionally lying. In this case, it's the latter. Other strong examples of the Unreliable Narrator includes Thrulnn the Lost in Hoelbrak and the Priest of Abaddon in Siren's Landing.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Then killing the dragons becomes the PC's Wyld Hunt. It's all too convenient.

Yeah, convenient because ArenaNet needed a clear reason to push the sylvari PC to fight Zhaitan. The Wyld Hunt WAS to kill Zhaitan, by the way:

Caithe: Congratulations, Commander. Our shared Wyld Hunt started together, so it's fitting that we end it together. We've more to do, but for now, rejoice: this victory will become part of the Dream.PC: Let's hope it inspires the next generation of sylvari.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Victory_or_Death#Fort_Trinity_4

However, it then became to kill Mordremoth:

Trahearne: The things we see in our Dream have a way of coming around. Your wyld hunt... Do you feel the call yet?PC: I haven't for some time, but I feel it now. Is this a new one?Trahearne: It is the same one. You helped to destroy Zhaitan, but that did not complete your wyld hunt. The next phase is beginning.PC: The Elder Dragons...Mordremoth.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_World_Summit#Dialogue

The PC's Wyld Hunt is to kill Zhaitan, then to kill Mordremoth. Likely to kill all Elder Dragons.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Just because Mordremoth is physically sleeping doesn't mean his mind does. We've witnessed that he can control his body and mind independently. While his dragon form fights the Pact, the Commander is fighting his mind.

Which I had brought up. There's nothing to hint that Mordremoth's mind was active before Scarlet had touched it - that was the "waking of the mind" point. And that still happened years after the Nightmare was discovered by sylvari.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Here's the full exchange;Duchess Chrysanthea: You fought well. We should do this sort of thing more often.Commander: Thanks, but I'm going to need a minute before we take on another dragon.Duchess Chrysanthea: (laugh) Until then, see you in your nightmares.

Just because she mentioned "nightmares" doesn't necessarily means she's still following the Nightmare or better yet, that the Nightmare Court still exists.

The way she laughs before speaking makes her words a mockery of the Commander's pain and suffering. She's implying that the Commander's nightmares are the Elder Dragons.

As far as we can tell, the Nightmare Court is in total disarray after working with Scarlet and what happened to Faolin.

That is one bizarre as hell interpretation. So what, Chrysanthea has become leader of a group that ceased to be? Chrysanthea will see the commander in the Elder Dragons? I'm confused as to what your argument is. The fact is that she is a Nightmare Courtier, still follows her beliefs, and fights Mordremoth.

Only a small faction worked with Scarlet, by the way. The Court wouldn't be in disarray because of that. And given how early Faolain's leaving was, it's pretty clear they weren't from that either.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Everything is unreliable narration. A pointless discussion then.

[Rognik.2579]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Everything is unreliable narration. A pointless discussion then.That's not quite the point. What it means is that you need to examine all the information on a certain topic, rather than any single bit of information in isolation. We know Caithe has been lying up until the end of Season 2, when her deep secret gets revealed. Scarlet Briar even alludes to knowing her secret during the Aetherblade path, which is clearly the murder of Wynne. Knowing that she lies means we know that not everything Caithe says isn't reliable. Lore on Mordremoth released before HoT is less reliable than what we learn afterwards. Knowing who is the unreliable narrator and who isn't is not an easy thing to do.That said, I think it's pretty safe to assume the Nightmare Court is still operational despite Mordremoth being killed. I'd like to know more of what their new goal is, if any, but for now, they are still looking for freedom from the Pale Tree and the teaching of Ventari's tablet, so that they don't feel so restricted in what they can do.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Rognik.2579 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Everything is unreliable narration. A pointless discussion then.That's not quite the point. What it means is that you need to examine all the information on a certain topic, rather than any single bit of information in isolation. We know Caithe has been lying up until the end of Season 2, when her deep secret gets revealed. Scarlet Briar even alludes to knowing her secret during the Aetherblade path, which is clearly the murder of Wynne. Knowing that she lies means we know that not everything Caithe says isn't reliable. Lore on Mordremoth released before HoT is less reliable than what we learn afterwards. Knowing who is the unreliable narrator and who isn't is not an easy thing to do.That said, I think it's pretty safe to assume the Nightmare Court is still operational despite Mordremoth being killed. I'd like to know more of what their new goal is, if any, but for now, they are still looking for freedom from the Pale Tree and the teaching of Ventari's tablet, so that they don't feel so restricted in what they can do.

If Caithe is unreliable then so as the Dream. The Dream showed the PC Sylvari an attack by a Shadow of the Dragon that looks exactly as Mordremoth's Champion who spawns Nightmare Hounds under the quest title Fighting the Nightmare. So Caithe saying that the Nightmare Court is attacking Sylvari in the Dream is not an unreliable narration. Why? Because I can see it myself.

Now dreaming about Modremoth's Champion attacking the dream suggests that I should go out and kill Zhaitan?!? -- something about that doesn't make sense. Why would the Pale Mother suggest to kill Zhaitan when Mordremoth is the one attacking the Dream? It comes down to motive. We learned that killing dragon empowers other dragons, thus Mordremoth manipulating the Wyld Hunt so that the Pale Mother will send the PC Sylvari to kill Zhaitan is plausible -- it makes him more powerful.

Scarlet saw all these somehow and poured cold water on Mordremoth. Waking him up made the Pact change their plan to attack Kral, and went to the jungle instead. If Scarlet didn't do what she did, the Pact would have killed Kral. Taimi has a device to kill both Primo and Jormag at the same time. This leaves Mordremoth with all the dragon powers. This is Mordremoth's ultimate plan. To convince the Sylvari to kill all the dragons while Mordremoth slumbers absorbing all Dragon energy.

Why did Faolin and the Nightmare Courtier go to the jungle? We don't have a concrete explanation about this, but I suspect that they went to worship or serve Mordremoth. Only to find out that what the Dragon's offer is not freedom but slavery. Faolin's response when we found her trapped with Eir suggests as much. She sounds like someone who purchased an expensive car due to the influence of the salesman then when she found out the truth, she's having a buyer's remorse episode.

If I am wrong to rely on unreliable narration, then I am wrong. At least, it was a fun ride.

[Crinn.7864]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game.

You can't really use in-game scale as a measurement though, at least as far as geography is concerned.

All in-game geography is much more condensed than what it is canonically. For example the Human intro cut scene implies that Shaemoor is some distance from Divinity's Reach, yet in game Shaemoor is literally in the shadow of DR's gate. Not to mention that in-game you could easily traverse the width of Kryta in a single day of RP-walk speed, yet based on NPC's talking about traveling and trade, Kryta is obviously bigger than that.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game.

You can't really use in-game scale as a measurement though, at least as far as geography is concerned.

All in-game geography is much more condensed than what it is canonically. For example the Human intro cut scene implies that Shaemoor is some distance from Divinity's Reach, yet in game Shaemoor is literally in the shadow of DR's gate. Not to mention that in-game you could easily traverse the width of Kryta in a single day of RP-walk speed, yet based on NPC's talking about traveling and trade, Kryta is obviously bigger than that.

Not even using in-game geography. I was using Edge of Destiny's description of Kralkatorrik and the perspective of Kralkatorrik from Ebonhawke as it flew over.

It was able to block out the sky from the perspective of Ebonhawke, while creating the Dragonbrand to the west of it.

[Crinn.7864]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game.

You can't really use in-game scale as a measurement though, at least as far as geography is concerned.

All in-game geography is much more condensed than what it is canonically. For example the Human intro cut scene implies that Shaemoor is some distance from Divinity's Reach, yet in game Shaemoor is literally in the shadow of DR's gate. Not to mention that in-game you could easily traverse the width of Kryta in a single day of RP-walk speed, yet based on NPC's talking about traveling and trade, Kryta is obviously bigger than that.

Not even using in-game geography. I was using Edge of Destiny's description of Kralkatorrik and the perspective of Kralkatorrik from Ebonhawke as it flew over.

It was able to block out the sky from the perspective of Ebonhawke, while creating the Dragonbrand to the west of it.

Your comment about "in-game models" implied that you where comparing in-game things for scale.

Also you can block the sun without being overhead as long as it isn't noon.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game.

You can't really use in-game scale as a measurement though, at least as far as geography is concerned.

All in-game geography is much more condensed than what it is canonically. For example the Human intro cut scene implies that Shaemoor is some distance from Divinity's Reach, yet in game Shaemoor is literally in the shadow of DR's gate. Not to mention that in-game you could easily traverse the width of Kryta in a single day of RP-walk speed, yet based on NPC's talking about traveling and trade, Kryta is obviously bigger than that.

Not even using in-game geography. I was using Edge of Destiny's description of Kralkatorrik and the perspective of Kralkatorrik from Ebonhawke as it flew over.

It was able to block out the sky from the perspective of Ebonhawke, while creating the Dragonbrand to the west of it.

Your comment about "in-game models" implied that you where comparing in-game things for scale.

Also you can block the sun without being overhead as long as it isn't noon.

I was also using in-game models, yes. But not solely, which is what I was getting at there.

And block the sun, you're correct. But block the sky? No.

[PopeUrban.2578]

80% of the contents of etsy.com probably.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

So, as far as the differences in how the Brand was created go between Edge of Destiny and Ghosts of Ascalon, I'm inclined to believe that was due to artistic license in Edge of Destiny. Every single description we have of the creation of the brand (including now an in-game cutscene) is consistent except one: Edge of Destiny.

Since everything else agrees that it was only due to Kralkatorrik flying over and not due to his breath, that is what we should be going with.

Is there anything immune to Kralkatorrik's corruption? Minions of another dragon. He could fly over Orr and all the Risen would still be shambling about. This is also why Sylvari couldn't become corrupted by Zhaitan: they were dragon minions already.

[vandrefalk.6823]

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Ok I look this up and according to the wiki, Almorra was surrounded by Branded;

"Soulkeeper waited for her warsiblings to tear each other apart, before stepping in and dispatching the survivors. When she was done, she looked before and behind herself and saw that every part of the land that had passed beneath the dragon had been twisted in this same way."

She's there, dead center.

A bit selective on your highlighting there...

The paragraphs before and after this one states she dealt with the corrupted Harthog and then waited while the rest of her warband went crazy and killed each other, before she stepped in to dispatch the survivors. The paragraph after suggests "the grass shattered under my feet as I walked on it grinding it into sand", and this observation comes from finally stepping in the Dragonbrand; we don't see this observation earlier, presumeably because she was indeed at the edge of the Dragonbrand as it corrupted the land and thus she was luckily spared while her warband, standing just inside, were not.

[Athrenn.9468]

@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:So, as far as the differences in how the Brand was created go between Edge of Destiny and Ghosts of Ascalon, I'm inclined to believe that was due to artistic license in Edge of Destiny. Every single description we have of the creation of the brand (including now an in-game cutscene) is consistent except one: Edge of Destiny.

Since everything else agrees that it was only due to Kralkatorrik flying over and not due to his breath, that is what we should be going with.

I agree with the first point about artistic license, but I'm also just going to point out that there is one single reference to Kralkatorrik's breath in game and it comes from Crusader Arevir Soulhammer of the Vigil:

Her warband succumbed to the dragon's breath, becoming Branded. She alone survived, which meant she had to make the painful decision to kill the creatures who moments before had been her comrades.

Of course, since Almorra was the sole survivor of the event and no one was there to witness her massacre, I can see there being multiple versions of the tale from Almorra being caught in the dragon's breath to escaping it by a hair's breadth. As far as any member of Tyrian society would be concerned (and therefore, what any roleplay character would know) Almorra's survival would be like an untelevised moon landing: something that shouldn't have been able to happen, but it did, and now it's up to your character to decide whether to believe her.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Is there anything immune to Kralkatorrik's corruption? Minions of another dragon. He could fly over Orr and all the Risen would still be shambling about. This is also why Sylvari couldn't become corrupted by Zhaitan: they were dragon minions already.

Not necessarily. We know that multicorruption is possible, which means it's possible that Kralkatorrik could brand a Risen if he wanted to.

We've never seen an Elder Dragon corrupt another dragon's minion directly, but we really don't know if that's because they can't, because they choose not to, or simply if it's something that does happen but we just haven't seen it.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Dondarrion.2748 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Ok I look this up and according to the wiki, Almorra was surrounded by Branded;

"Soulkeeper

waited for her warsiblings to tear each other apart, before stepping in

and dispatching the survivors. When she was done, she looked before and behind herself and saw that every part of the land that had passed beneath the dragon had been twisted in this same way."

She's there, dead center.

A bit selective on your highlighting there...

The paragraphs before and after this one states she dealt with the corrupted Harthog and then waited while the rest of her warband went crazy and killed each other, before she stepped in to dispatch the survivors. The paragraph after suggests "the grass shattered under my feet as I walked on it grinding it into sand", and this observation comes from finally stepping in the Dragonbrand; we don't see this observation earlier, presumeably because she was indeed at the edge of the Dragonbrand as it corrupted the land and thus she was luckily spared while her warband, standing just inside, were not.

If you did read the sentence before that, you would have found this;

"...while she reached out to and grabbed her friend by the shoulders to shake the fear from him. As she did, Harthog began to transform into a Branded."

She's lucky because...

"Despite her proximity to her warband, she was able to escape becoming Branded."

She touched Harthog's shoulder as he transforms into a Branded -- she's that close. And this;

"And at her back, she could feel a pressure as Kralkatorrik passed overhead and created the Dragonbrand."

From this account;

• They are patrolling heading South when suddenly Harthog was lagging behind
• Harthog turned around facing the mountains where Kral is coming from which is to the North
• She turned around and went to him to see what's scaring her bravest bandmate leaving the rest of the warband behind her
• The rest of the warband turned around looking at the same direction as Harthog
• He turned into branded as Kral passes overhead
• She killed him
• She turned around to see the rest of the warband, which are now branded, killing each other
• She then finished off the survivors
• She looked around and stepped on crystal grass as she tries to move away

All these add up. What doesn't add up is the idea that she's standing outside the branded -- which doesn't make sense.

Now back to my main point. She resisted the corruption and it might have something to do with her mental state. If she turned out of having in possession of a powerful artifact like the orb that repels Zhaitan's corruption, then I stand corrected.