Should Scrapper provid team Quickness?

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Yeah we're all just talking past one another and this point. Agree to disagree mates. I still think Anet won't full fill this particular wish though, it would create too much imbalance in PvP and WvW.

@"Lan Deathrider.5910"it's raw idea, if some numbers will be too strong in pvp/wvw, it can always be tuned to that game modeSame as thay can inspirate of that idea and create better desing that syngery much better, for now you got 3 mechnics to prevent that to be too strong in pvp/wvw1 is that you need land cc (not block/evade, not miss)2 is that Aplied force is only 50% effective to allys

3. low number of Quickness on cc, so if you got 0 boon duration, it's only 1s, in that time you can fart, and most stuns do almost 0dmg in pvp/wvw (expect of Hammer 5) so its not beneficial to take too much cc, only to run more Quckness by dps, prob as dps you will have max 1-2 stuns, more will result in giving up defensive/offensive skills

in pvp Quickness from cc can be decrested from 1s>0,5 by that logic, and aplied force stay on 3s, so it's still only 1,5s for allys evry 10s on wich you can't keep up might that often cuz on pvp no Concetration stats (only by runes) and boons last much shorter

That is balanced desing , all thx too ppl who gived thay opinion in that topic :)

I wished boons weren't in such abundance. Farting quickness/alacrity all around to be part of the optimal setups seem... hollow to me.

@"MrForz.1953"it's not only Quickness, you provid might, fury same as other boons that dps role have not much acces to it by itself

on top of that you providing stability so your dps person in party can use thay rotation, witchout being cc evry 1-2s by ennemy

You provid 2 burst healings with Suply Crate, and Medic Gyro, so you can help your healer in bad situations, or rotate your heal betwenn of thay cd

Scrapper on top of that offer to be mini tank and take agron on himself be rushing to mobs first, same as taking dmg from allys by bulwar gyro who is alternative to Aegis, that insted 1 stack, you provide 35% from whole duration of 4s same as defence field whos protect team from missiles

Thats main concept of "Support" is to like name tell Supporting team to make thay life eazier, somethink like angel who always look on you from back(Scrapper is bit of more agresive angel who stay in front)

In ShortDps -> looking on what boss do and put dmgHealer -> looking on players healt bars and fix dps errors in positioning after factSupport -> looking on what boss will do to harm team to defence team before fact

In perfect word ther culd be prob2dps1 offensive support providing Quickness/Alacirty, might, fury, swifness (Revenant/Mesmer/Thief)1 defensive support whos tanky providing Aegis/Protection, Stability, Vigor (Enginner/Guardian/Warior) having some acess to team heal burst1 Healer, providing regeneration, resistance (wher insted of blocking 100% it culd reduc condi dmg by 35-40% same as protection)(Necromancer/Ranger/Elementalist) Having strong heal and ress mechanics

but word isin't perfect

And you got situation wher Offensive Support is in same time a tank, (mesmer) in raid, closing role of evry defensive support

While Fractals don't need tanks or defensive class role and thers no agro to touchness mechanic, no boss do any bigger dmg to single target

[draxynnic.3719]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:And I actually never said that we should give

all boons to everyone

. But that everyone should be able to share one of the 3 main boons which matter for the group: alacrity, quickness, might.And you would push certain classes out entirely if you do so.

If all you care about is the absolute optimal team setup, that's unavoidable. Look at the Snowcrows raid guides, for instance. You won't find elementalists or engineers in ANY of their optimised team setups. Not one. There's a necromancer in Soulless Horror, but that's in there purely for Epidemic.

In practice, though, plenty of groups succeed without having the optimal team setup, since usually as long as you have the essential functions covered, your DPS is sufficient, and people know what they're doing, that's good

enough.

You're never going to finagle a situation where the optimal 10-man group is one of each profession and one extra. It's just not going to happen. What you can do, though, is make it so that if a bunch of players get together with a random set of professions, there's a good chance that they'll be able to find some way to make it work.

This is exactly why I think the "flavor" arguments for each spec/class fall flat. Some specs/classes are always "optimal." Guardian has always been in the optimal setups for high-end PvE. Not once has it been considered "bottom tier." Since HoT launched, Mesmer has always been in the optimal setups as well. Conversely, engineer, elementalist, and necromancer consistently fall into the "least optimal" rotations because we simply don't offer the kind of versatility or utility that these other professions do. Need proof?

Go here,

and check each of the raid bosses' "optimal composition." Two classes are not represented at all: Engineer and elementalist. Two classes are overrepresented: Guardian and Mesmer.

We're not asking to become

THE

primary source of these boons, but to have a chance to be let in when people aren't completely min-maxing. The trouble is that frequently groups get held up in LFG waiting for a specific build/class which is almost always chrono, healbrand/quickbrand, or alacren. This is a problem because it stymies the diversity @Lan Deathrider.5910 is arguing for. If I could show up in a group looking for a healbrand or alacren and say "I'm not this, but I can give you some quickness and/or alacrity," impatient groups would be willing to give me a shot.

Yeah, pretty much this. At the moment, we've got five professions that are in high demand, three that aren't, and thieves that can gimmick specific encounters and are about as welcome as the other three everywhere else. A large part of that is because there are two essential functions that each only have two professions that can fill them... and that includes one that fills both, so there are three professions in total that can operate in that space.

Consider the high-end PvE opportunities that someone who's mastered guardian, renegade, and mesmer has compared to someone who's mastered engineer, elementalist, and necromancer. The second person has, if anything, gone to more effort than the first (elementalist and engineer both have pretty high skill ceilings) but they're just not going to have the flexibility the first person has.

From what I can see, there are three possible ways to resolve this situation of haves and have-nots:

1) Kill alacrity and quickness altogether. It's not a satisfying option, certainly not one I'd recommend, but hey, it'd bring the oligopoly trinity (yep, I'm gonna call it that now) down to everyone else's level.

2) Create new functions, that are at least as desired as bannerslave and spirit ranger. I think this might be what @Lan Deathrider.5910 is trying to propose, but I think this is an approach that has its own problems. ArenaNet has taken steps in this direction in the past (giving most professions a unique ally stat buff trait, for instance), but this doesn't seem to have had the desired effect, since some of these buffs are more valued than others, and more recently they seem to have been backing away from professions having unique buffs and having them go back to using the same boons where practical (Grace of the Land, for instance). Best case scenario is that if you did manage to pull it off, you'd have the optimal 10-man squad being one of each profession with one extra... but in this situation you'd likely have each profession being stuck in a prescribed role that they're expected to fill, and in five-man content like high-end fractals people would just decide which functions are most important to fit into five players and go with that.

3) Share the current oligopolistic functions across more professions.

(Note that a combination of 2 and 3 is certainly possible.)

In the third case... yes, there is probably still going to be some optimal means of getting the quickness or alacrity you need, whether it's firebrigade, combining them into chrono, or something new. But, as pointed out above... having more professions who can fulfill those roles means that professions have more opportunities to contribute. A less elitist PUG might not care about specifically where their alacrity and quickness comes from, as long as it's there. A newly formed would-be static might find that they don't have anyone who's willing or able (at least in the short term) to bring a boon chrono or alacrigade, but they might be able to say "hey, Bob's been playing elementalist since release and there's that new alacrimentalist build, maybe he could try that out?"

@Noah Salazar.5430 said:

I'm not sure that's actually how the system works with hard CCs - soft CC conditions appear greyed out as you say, but I think hard CCs just don't register unless the defiance bar is blue.

@draxynnic.3719If it was true, evry time you use 5 hammer on immunite to cc target you wuld do 0dmg from that skillSame with prime light beam ult on Holo

Maybe daze,stun is not displayed on cc immune target, but on 100% is registered

I think you've missed my meaning.

The precedent with other "on stun" or "on CC" traits, from what I've seen, is that if the target is immune to the CC, the trait doesn't proc either. I'm not 100% sure, because I haven't had reason to pay that close attention to it, but I think that's how it works.

I'm still inclined to think it would be better for engineer to have a new support-oriented elite specialisation, though. I don't feel like there's really a strong link between CCs (especially failed CCs...) and granting party quickness.

cc maybe not sound best, but from desing perspective, combo the best with weapon of that elit spec, other traits, and Engineer/Scrapper have alot acess to cc, even some turrets overcharge and hit with cc as first shot

And thats only 2 small edits to make that all work and combo togheter

Until we not get idea for better desing, or change from "small edit" to completly rework how to put Quckness, i think cc mechanic syngergy the best for now

That's the thing, though - we know ArenaNet is working on an expansion (and technically speaking I think they hadn't ruled out elite specs with Icebrood Saga, but I suspect they've done so now that they've decided to do an expansion). That probably means new elite specs, and the potential to do an engineer support-oriented elite spec from the ground up rather than trying to attach one to scrapper. I understand that this doesn't really help fix things now, but I think it would be better in the long run.

(And I don't think there's much call to give engineer both party quickness AND party alacrity in the foreseeable future, even if they're on separate elite specialisations.)

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Kill alacrity and quickness altogether. It's not a satisfying option

@draxynnic.3719True, if Alacrity/Quckness wuld not be spreded perm, insted for like 6-8s aoe burst evry 25s ( lets say used for that time wher boss is stuned) than it culd be less punishing to take other sup, who insted offer dmg reduction or other mechanics benefiting team

(And I don't think there's much call to give engineer both party quickness AND party alacrity in the foreseeable future, even if they're on separate elite specialisations.)

i'm ok with that but only if Alacrity/Quickness duration on other class will be nerfed, boon itself will be weaker or by class you will provid similar value to comepnsate lack of it

until than best option is add what that class mising, or wait like you said to see what 3 elit spec will bring

than yes you will have Holo for pve/pvp, Scrapper for pvp/wvw, and xxx for support in pve/wvw

but it will not solve problem of boon supports whos lack that 2 boons to be inaf value for offmeta pick

I think at that point topic can be closed, until someone have some ideas to upgrade Quickness mechanic that we came up with or other solutions

[draxynnic.3719]

@"Noah Salazar.5430" said:i'm ok with that but only if Alacrity/Quickness duration on other class will be nerfed, boon itself will be weaker or by class you will provid similar value to comepnsate lack of it

Eh. I think it would be a pretty big ask to give every class access to both party alacrity and quickness in one expansion pack without losing profession distinction in the process.

I think it's reasonable to divide support roles into four basic categories of things people want:

• Healing
• Quickness
• Alacrity
• Profession-specific unique boons

There are, of course, other things like Might and Fury, but these usually come fairly easily in high-end PvE, so to simplify matters I'll assume that these are sorted one way or another.

If you look at the big 'haves' in high-end PvE, most of them have two of these:

• Mesmers have quickness and alacrity, but you can't really call a chronomancer a healer even if they're packing Minstrel's for tanking purposes.
• Firebrands have quickness and healing.
• Renegades have alacrity and healing.
• Druids have healing and spirits (Frost Spirit being the big one)

Warriors are pretty much limited to bannerslaving, so maybe they could have an additional function out of the four. Maybe alacrity, since renegade has already linked that to inspiring leadership, or maybe just healing... but I think I'd prefer the former. While shout warrior can sometimes be interesting, I'm a bit leery about making "healing warrior" ever become an actual thing. The biggest concern I'd have is that if bannerslaves ever become capable of maintaining permanent alacrity, that'd probably kick out other sources of alacrity from 5-man content at least, so any other support function warriors get should probably be set up in such a way that it's not practical to perform that function and have banners out at the same time.

As for the have-nots:

Engineers and elementalists pretty much just have healing. Scourges have shroud, fast ressing, and a bit of actual healing, so it kinda acts like a healer.

Thief... well, the Shadow Arts changes were a step in the right direction, but right now, thief basically just has Detonate Plasma on bosses that grant it. The boon daredevil isn't even much different from power daredevil, it just switches to boon duration gear and takes the traits needed to maximise the rate at which it can Detonate Plasma. Thief isn't doing that, Detonate Plasma is. But I guess it's kinda a precedent to giving quickness to a hypothetical future support thief?

I think the trend here is fairly clear. If you have two of the desired functions, you're in the club, especially if you also have the ability to contribute to a function without sacrificing too much personal DPS (this is why stacking guardians and mesmers is so popular). If you only have one... well, warrior gets to bannerslave, but everyone else is in the outgroup unless there's something specific about the boss that makes you particularly good for it.

There are some subtleties I'm glossing over here (for instance, one of the other reasons why druids are often the preferred healer is because they produce a lot of Might as they heal - while that's something that's often covered without much effort, it's nice to know it's covered), but I think it demonstrates the concept. Engineers don't need to have both alacrity and quickness (even if they're on different builds) to measure up. Give it one of those, plus healing, and it should be roughly on par with the current oligarchs. Give it both, and it would be ahead of them. (Heck, I could see a potential interaction arising where engineer becomes the preferred option for bosses where you want lots of condition damage if you can manage to fit Pinpoint Distribution in, while something else is preferred for bosses where power damage is better. Fitting Firearms into a support engineer build would involve making some sacrifices, though. But hey, similar to alacrigade and condi quickbrand, the hypothetical support engineer here might not need to be a healer as well to pull its weight. Just because it can doesn't mean it necessarily should if someone else has healing covered.)

[Noah Salazar.5430]

K ty for all your opinion, after some thinking, insted of small change, i decided to make whole rework of scrapper

i will create new topic wher you will can discuse that idea ther

and also closing that topic so don't write here anythink more