Should Scrapper provid team Quickness?

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Hi what you think? Schold Scrapper provid team Quickness boon?What are your ideas to make Scrapper more popular/playable as dps/sup/heal role?Any other Ideas to put Quckness in other mechanics?Or maybe alacrity?

(maybe pass turrets as yeh thay miss 50-75% hp buff or rework)

[edited part]Here is my idea :https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Applied_Force

Quckness 3s->4sShare 50% of Quickness to allys in 360 rangeinvterval is still 10sStack Treshold 10->15

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Expert_Examinationaoe Quckness 1s-> Stuning, Dazing, knocking, or lauching enemy

Here is picture with 100% boon duration

[end of edit]

that change have in mind to make scrapper more playable in roles :

A) Sup role : Pover Scrapper with amulet+earnings (diviner)

b) DPS role : full pover scrapper providing nice (but not top) dps with some Quckness to close gap of 10-20%

c) Heal role : gyro healer with protection, 2 stab abilitis (Defense Field+Toss Elixir B) (now Elixir B make more sense as you can use it to keep up might for team Quckness) Bulwark gyro to take dmg of team on yourself with block, and nice 90% Quckness up time (might can be provided by alacren/sup)

How that change meta?

a) prob Scrapper can be nice alternative to qfb/hfb, as same will provid Quckness and heal good with providing tons stab to team as full healer

b) prob fractal comp culd be qfb+scrapper+alac+dps+bs

qfb and scrapper will heal togheter and togheter provid 11-12 might with combo of Empover+Blast Gryo and stab togheter so ther can be no need for hfb, as scrapper is good in term of team heal even as full dps or sup

What you think? have you any other ideas to make that class more love?

As right now you can see scrapper only in wvw and open word, sometimes in pvp

[Kodama.6453]

Nope, it shouldn't. Simply because of the fact that scrapper is not supposed to be a primary support spec in the first place.They are supposed to be a bruiser/tank.

Scrapper's actual problem is not the spec itself, but the content created by Anet. And it is not the only one.Daredevil and spellbreaker, for example, are also bruiser elite specs designed to give their classes more lockdown and better personal defense.But these 3 e-specs had to migrate into different playstyles, because this game simply has no use for an actual tank.

Strike missions and fractals have no use for a dedicated tank, the only roles which matter are supports and dps.Raids use tanks, but mostly just 1 in a team of 10 and most people will simply take chronomancer for that, a spec which isn't even supposed to be a bruiser in the first place.

Scrapper's gyros provide some supportive value and core engineer just has 2 support specialisations, inventions and alchemy. So scrapper migrated into the support playstyle, since engineer doesn't have a dedicated support elite spec yet (hopefully this comes with the next expansion) and can avoid the competition with holosmith there, which is engineer's dps e-spec.

Daredevil and thief as a whole can't realistically support on a competitive level, so daredevil had to migrate into the dps playstyle. Daredevil and deadeye will therefore compete for the same niche here: damage.

Spellbreaker and warrior are the same, there is no real dedicated support build for them, so spellbreaker has to play the dps role. It competes with berserker and is outshined in that role, hence why berserker builds are way more common in PvE. In WvW, spellbreaker has some use because it has the most powrful boon removal in the game, tho.

Fixing that problem doesn't require to add support aspects to these elites. Anet needs to create content which requires some of the party members to go for personal defense and CC. I have to stress the personal defense here, we need mechanics which disable the tanks to get survivability from other sources (barrier from scourge or healing from druid/hfb/etc), that you really need to bring a tank spec instead of the same dps filled team with some support sprinkled in to keep the squishies all alive.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Nope, it shouldn't. Simply because of the fact that scrapper is not supposed to be a primary support spec in the first place.They are supposed to be a bruiser/tank.

@Kodama.6453 i strong disagree

usualy supports shold be tanky as thay most valuable in team, cuz once your support die you lose all boons that this role provide, scrapper in that term is perfect for support role as tank/bruser with posibility to buff hight might, protection, furry, regeneration and even other boons same can take other dmg on himself what is support mechanic

with Quickness boon you will push it to support role what will be more playable and solve problem you mentioned in all game modes insted of one raid with havy cc/condi or 1 mistlock in fractal

same it will open expermients on tank role in raids as well, cuz with Quickness Scrapper will be more valuable to team, and maybe insted of mesmer you will can put alacren+Scrapper with Minstriel gear as alternative thx to it

Same in term of cc, Scrapper have tons of it (hammer 5, big oil bomb, glue bomb, blast gyro, Supply Crate what spawn net turret as well, Spare capacitor (if you using Shred gyro for more dps)

If it's not a perefct desing for support with 1 missing puzzle that i don't know what it is

avoid the competition with holosmith there

it will not as scrapper you do 31k dps, holo do around 38k or morethink is if you chose scrapper, your team will have bonus stab and Quickness, that can compensate bad sups, or sups with 80% boons up time, same add some healing and survability to team

As Healer role, now when Scrapper will have Quciness you will can play it as alternative or synergy with qfb/hfb in raids/fracs or even in wvw zerg

Or even open for Scrapper+Necro healer combo as both class have aoe ress mechanicin that situaition Scrapper will be secound healer with Quickness

Daredevil and thief as a whole can't realistically support on a competitive level, so daredevil had to migrate into the dps playstyle. Daredevil and deadeye will therefore compete for the same niche here: damage.

Spellbreaker and warrior are the same, there is no real dedicated support build for them, so spellbreaker has to play the dps role. It competes with berserker and is outshined in that role, hence why berserker builds are way more common in PvE. In WvW, spellbreaker has some use because it has the most powrful boon removal in the game, tho.

i'm not main of that class, prob other players that main them, can provid better feedback how to make that spec more welcome

but as main of scrapper i can feedback how make scrapper more helpfull to team with 1 simple change witchout any bigger rework

[Kodama.6453]

with Quickness boon you will push it to support role what will be more playable and solve problem you mentioned in all game modes insted of one raid with havy cc/condi or 1 mistlock in fractal

And that is what I disagree with. You want to push scrapper further into the support role, something that scrapper is not supposed to represent in the first place.

Look at proper support elite specs like firebrand, druid, tempest, scourgeTheir entire specs are built around supporting their allies. Scrapper is not like them, the only supportive value scrapper has comes from their gyros.

Neither scrapper's hammer, nor their traits provide real team support.The hammer is about personal defense (block just for yourself, reflec, evade) and CC. Your traits don't have any meaningful support besides superspeed and that's actually it.

Because they are not built for that. Scrapper is built to be a frontline tank and survive alot of damage for their allies. Scrapper is actually the closest e-spec we have to the classic trinity tank. There is nothing wrong with having dedicated tanks in the game, especially since anet already created more than just one of these specs. But they have to follow up on these designs and provide stuff where tanks are actually needed.

And here comes the second big problem with your "fix". While it would help out scrapper to become more viable, it does not help bruiser specs in total.Like I mentioned, scrapper is not the only bruiser spec they made. Daredevil and spellbreaker share the same problem scrapper has, they have the tank identity in a game that does not require tanks.

Instead of reworking all these specs into something they are not supposed to be, I wish from Anet that they make them relevant. And I don't mean just adding 1 fractal or raid in which they are useful. I mean that all the high end content they are creating in the future should have all 3 roles in mind: dps, tank, support.This would actually make these classes have an actual use and not force them to play a role they were not designed for.

You want to force scrapper into a new identity that hasn't been the intention of the e-spec.I want to preserve scrapper's identity and make it relevant.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

And that is what I disagree with. You want to push scrapper further into the support role, something that scrapper is not supposed to represent in the first place.Look at proper support elite specs like firebrand, druid, tempest, scourgeTheir entire specs are built around supporting their allies. Scrapper is not like them, the only supportive value scrapper has comes from their gyros.Neither scrapper's hammer, nor their traits provide real team support.

@"Kodama.6453" i disagreewhole inventions tree is dedicated to a team

other trees can not looks like supporting your team in first pleace but thay actualy do

TOOLSSoothing Detonation -> more heal from spaming Bandage Self https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandage_Self and spaming other tool belt skill more often->Kinetic battery -> you spam with your heal more offten->Pover wreht -> Supply Crate more often, that mean cc and condi cleanse as well more heal to teamAlchemywell i think i no need tell anythink heremore heal to team, more boons durations that you provide, more condi cleanse, you can run, HGC to provid more might to youreslef, so with quickness change you can have 10 might with Elixir B ;) or change condi to boonsBomber-> evry explosion provid vulabirity on boss or ennemy = your team do more dmg-> Blass shield compensate barier that you can't get much when your full healer-> Big boomer -> heal yourself while healing gyro is on cd, heal 50% of it to team

Overall that 3-4 spec have more sense when you look on them all togheter in same time

But i also agree that some improvments can be make, if Scrapper will be stabile as support role, other that that Scrapper provid good support just by his tools and spells

And adding quickness will make a direction wher that class will go insted stucking to role wher as you said Anet not doing content tho

Neither scrapper's hammer, nor their traits provide real team support

Disagree as well

Bulwar gyro+Hammer block = support block dmgReconstruction Field+Hammer 3 = support heal teamReconstruction Field+Hammer 2 = support team projectile healHammer 1 = might to provid 10 stacs = Quickness to team ;) in same time vulnerability so your team do more dmg to boss/mobsand 5 is aoe cc that with what make vulabirity field as well

Instead of reworking all these specs into something they are not supposed to be

bro, thats why i proposed only 1 change to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Applied_Force, it's not reworking class at all, only improving it

same in solo play as you will have more Quickness = more tankier brusher you will be

You want to force scrapper into a new identity that hasn't been the intention of the e-spec.I want to preserve scrapper's identity and make it relevant.

And here comes the second big problem with your "fix". While it would help out scrapper to become more viable, it does not help bruiser specs in total.

Not rly, you will still rush in to 5-10 mobs before your team, so all mobs hit you, and your team can focus on dps them insted doding and trying survive, insted now you will give YOUR Quickness you actualy HAVE right now to TEAM, and with 8s interval insted 10s, you will keep your tanknes more effective

thats why in beggining i mentioned 3 roles as well

dps,sup,heal

as tanks are not played

you can still be tank but as role of healer or sup or even a tanky dps

Why tanky dps is balanced?

cuz it do less dps than holo by 6-8k(or even more), but insted provid somethink to team and you can die less often compare to glass cannon

(Don't forget also about team Superspeed who is ingored by most ppl, but it make huge diference in positioning or doding red circles on floor)

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

So, do we balance a class based around a theoretical game that may or may not exist in the future, or around the game as it sits now?

Personally I have found scrapper's tankiness to be useful from time to time. If I'm in fractals with a bad group, or if I am in dungeons solo/with a bad group, I've found it far easier to use Scrapper instead of Holosmith. I "support" by charging forward, drawing aggro, and then using a combination of blinds/blocks/barrier to absorb the damage that my teammates can't handle. While the self-barrier is pretty useless in PVP, in PVE against a group of veterans I am effectively immortal while doing the burst rotation. Alternating between DPS Burst, Flash Shell, and then Bulwark + Shock Shield can keep enemies occupied long enough for me or my team to kill them. I also use the function gyro to rez people, as intended.

The balance philosophy at Anet isn't always the same as the players. We're used to the narrow rules and restricted views that other MMOs have. Anet tries to emphasize personal choice and options, albeit in strange and alternate ways. When it comes to these tank builds, for small-scale content they're meant to be used in place of a healer. Yes, it is not the safest or most efficient option, but the whole point is to make it an option. The Scrapper already has a unique support role in the game, via group superspeed, so I'm not sure that you'll be able to convince Anet to make scrappers an even better support.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493"True, i got similar experience as you

Holo do much more dmg, but need team much more to survive and boons to do that big dmg

scrapper is more multi-task, and have highter survability and for that pay tax with 1/4 dps but insted of that 1/4 adionatly provide aoe ress and some stuff

thx that scrapper can in same time by dps and tanky sup/heal and his stay as balanced

The balance philosophy at Anet isn't always the same as the players. We're used to the narrow rules and restricted views that other MMOs have. Anet tries to emphasize personal choice and options, albeit in strange and alternate ways. When it comes to these tank builds, for small-scale content they're meant to be used in place of a healer. Yes, it is not the safest or most efficient option, but the whole point is to make it an option. The Scrapper already has a unique support role in the game, via group superspeed, so I'm not sure that you'll be able to convince Anet to make scrappers an even better support.

Yep, thats why i'm pround from what i was figured out

as change i propose

a) is not a reworkb) not change any animationsc) is eazy to implementd)edit only 1 trait that actualy exist https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Applied_Force and is good to a theme what Scrapper (sup) actualy is and not changing function of ite) not adding any new mechanics whos not exist

All that think give highter chance to be noticed and be implemented for testand maybe will open door for future changes to that direction as well :)

like just imagine how many that small litle edit will help scrapper to be chosed as healer, dps or even sup in raid/fractals more often

[Fueki.4753]

No, they shouldn't bring Quickness to raids.Don't make Chronomancer's one niche even smaller.

[wasss.1208]

@Kodama.6453 is right about scrapper traits and hammer not giving any support, every support ability they have comes from the gyros (except for two traits giving superspeed, and one a single stack of stability). If you look at the traitline itself, it focuses on three things: personal barrier, crowd control effects , and personal damage boost. Currently it does around 31k, which is close to scourge and reaper, the other specs with built in defensive ability. That is the reason it is ~7k behind holo.

Also, your proposed change would break WvW, where bomb scrapper (using that trait) was meta in february, and it is still considered good. Imagine if it spew AoE quickness around. You could split this trait for competitive modes, but as splitting works now, it would still give 1 second of quickness to teammates, so the balance team would probably reduce personal quickness, or the bonus power, as a tradeoff. And with that, scrappers personal damage potential would drop.

For scrapper to be viable as a PvE support, it would need to cover at least one of these, while doing either good damage, or healing numbers: 25 might on 10 people, alacrity on 5, or quickness on 5. (And if it covers only one of these, it would be still behind the other supports, which all has their side gimmick: heal FB vomits boons everywhere, qFB does good damage, chrono has ala+quickness on 5, boon thief gives almost every boon, rev has 10 person ala, tempest is a hardcarry, scourge is a ressbot, druid is... well, it is druid.) You can achieve this by bloating the scrapper line, or make a completely new line, completely focusing around support, with traits, weapon, and utilities centered around that theme.

[Wolfb.7025]

@Kodama.6453 said:

with Quickness boon you will push it to support role what will be more playable and solve problem you mentioned in all game modes insted of one raid with havy cc/condi or 1 mistlock in fractal

And that is what I disagree with. You want to push scrapper further into the support role, something that scrapper is not supposed to represent in the first place.

Look at proper support elite specs like firebrand, druid, tempest, scourgeTheir entire specs are built around supporting their allies. Scrapper is not like them, the only supportive value scrapper has comes from their gyros.

Firebrand is a Strong condi DPS class.Scourge is another heavy condi dps class, support scourges are only used to either mitigate and neglect mechanics on one or two raid bosses or to carry noobies. There is even a meta WvW power build for scourges that deals a lot of damage and provides with high boon corruption.Tempest has one of the highest power DPS benchmarks right now.

Scrapper however, is a crappy dps, the benchmark is basically a meme, 5 of his 6 skills are based around supporting other players and his function gyro that has 3/4 of its function as support.

Scrapper is a bad pve support, but its a godlike on WvW with all the condi cleanse spam and damage mitigation it provides. It would be the best candidate to replace the do-it-all blue class Firebrand if they're given a source of quickness (an probably more Might sources for the party).

[draxynnic.3719]

I'm inclined to agree with Kodama. Scrapper isn't intended as a support specialisation. It's used as such because after Alchemy and Inventions, there isn't really anything better. Gyros do offer some team support, after all, and survivability helps a support remain alive to, well, support (although the assumption that a scrapper will be dealing power damage in order to self-barrier does hurt in that regard).

I'm not opposed to engineers having access to party quickness in general (stimpacks?), but shoehorning it into scrapper doesn't seem like the best option.

@Fueki.4753 said:No, they shouldn't bring Quickness to raids.Don't make Chronomancer's one niche even smaller.

Professions shouldn't need a monopoly to be viable.

Boon chrono is still used even with firebrigade as an alternative - it does provide quickness and alacrity in a single package, after all. Power chrono is pretty decent DPS, so it's not like boon chrono is chrono's only niche for raids (there's a couple of bosses where power chrono is considered the optimal DPS choice, in fact) and condition mirage also has pretty high (if somewhat situational) potential DPS. Mesmer is in a pretty good place when it comes to raids.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

is right about scrapper traits and hammer not giving any support, every support ability they have comes from the gyros

Yes, support not come alone from hammer, but thx to hammer you can provid support with gyros, thats how it work :D

If you look at the traitline itself, it focuses on three things: personal barrier, crowd control effects , and personal damage boost

@Kodama.6453-> yes, more dmg = more barier you have and with Quickness now stacking up might have more purpouse-> barier you can use to take enemy dmg on you so your glassy cannon dps friends that do 8k+ more than you can dps in peace, i think you will agree thats a support trait-> CC is used be other dps, but cuz Scrapper have alot of it, it's can be taken as solo stun-break boss, so your dps can take skills to dps, insted of cc

I'm inclined to agree with Kodama. Scrapper isn't intended as a support specialisation. It's used as such because after Alchemy and Inventions, there isn't really anything better. Gyros do offer some team support, after all, and survivability helps a support remain alive to, well, support (although the assumption that a scrapper will be dealing power damage in order to self-barrier does hurt in that regard).

@"draxynnic.3719"game support mele stack combat, maybe thers only 1 raid boss wher you stay as ranged, but you no need much survability on it, other that that, i explained in up

Also, your proposed change would break WvW, where bomb scrapper (using that trait) was meta in february, and it is still considered good. Imagine if it spew AoE quickness around. You could split this trait for competitive modes, but as splitting works now, it would still give 1 second of quickness to teammates, so the balance team would probably reduce personal quickness, or the bonus power, as a tradeoff. And with that, scrappers personal damage potential would drop.

i don't think so, in order to do it you will need 2 pover bomb scrappers or 1 boon healer scrapperDon't forget to do so, scrapper need have 10 might on himself provided by team or himselfSo boon coruption will hight impact on it

It's more concept, but if that change will be too strong you can always add balance like "that trait is 50% less efective in pvp/wvw" so insted of 3,5s you have 1,75sother that that other classes can provid Quickness as well

For scrapper to be viable as a PvE support, it would need to cover at least one of these, while doing either good damage, or healing numbers: 25 might on 10 people, alacrity on 5, or quickness on 5

@Wolfb.7025yep, it can provid 25 might in pve, but don't have alacrity/quckness

thats why i want add quckness to scrapper, so it can be played as alternative supporti not mean to make that class instantly super op mega broken meta, but to change think, that at last that class will be can taken if you can't find main meta roles

(an probably more Might sources for the party).

i tested might, and i did well 22-25 stacs in pve with help of turrets (or witchout them only with blasts)in pvp/wvw it's balanced more as i culd do 11-13 cuz it's not static fight

You can achieve this by bloating the scrapper line, or make a completely new line, completely focusing around support, with traits, weapon, and utilities centered around that theme

thats why i think that one little edit inaf, ofc ther can be better ways to put qucness to that class but that one edit, looks like best and simplest option right now, thats why i asked did anyone have any better ideas

Scrapper however, is a crappy dps, the benchmark is basically a meme, 5 of his 6 skills are based around supporting other players and his function gyro that has 3/4 of its function as support.

Scrapper have nice support kit, but in my opinion cuz it not provide alacrity/quickness, his support kit is complitly ignored, or not even taken to count

[draxynnic.3719]

@Noah Salazar.5430 said:

is right about scrapper traits and hammer not giving any support, every support ability they have comes from the gyros

Yes, support not come alone from hammer, but thx to hammer you can provid support with gyros, thats how it work :D

If you look at the traitline itself, it focuses on three things: personal barrier, crowd control effects , and personal damage boost

@Kodama.6453-> yes, more dmg = more barier you have and with Quickness now stacking up might have more purpouse-> barier you can use to take enemy dmg on you so your glassy cannon dps friends that do 8k+ more than you can dps in peace, i think you will agree thats a support trait-> CC is used be other dps, but cuz Scrapper have alot of it, it's can be taken as solo stun-break boss, so your dps can take skills to dps, insted of cc

I'm inclined to agree with Kodama. Scrapper isn't intended as a support specialisation. It's used as such because after Alchemy and Inventions, there isn't really anything better. Gyros do offer some team support, after all, and survivability helps a support remain alive to, well, support (although the assumption that a scrapper will be dealing power damage in order to self-barrier does hurt in that regard).

@draxynnic.3719game support melee stack combat, maybe there's only 1 raid boss where you stay as ranged, but you no need much survivability on it, other that that, i explained in up

Which is pretty much just repeating something I've already acknowledged. Survivability helps a support build, because you can't support if you're dead, and it's usually more important that your supports stay standing while you can generally afford to lose a DPS or two. Scrapper still isn't support-oriented, though, although it does have support options.

Sure, you can squeeze some support utility out of it, but it's no druid, or firebrand, or tempest, or either revenant elite, or even scourge or chronomancer - elite specialisations that are designed to facilitate support builds. Instead, it's more like dragonhunter and soulbeast - there are aspects of it that can be used to complement a support build, but it's really not what it's designed to do. You just don't see people trying to make support builds out of dragonhunters and soulbeasts because firebrands and druids exist (and back in the day before firebrands existed, druids and heal tempests still existed and clearly outperformed any support build you could make out of dragonhunter). Scrapper heal now is in about the same position guardian support was pre-PoF - traits and skills are there in core that are obviously pointing in that direction, but just lacking that extra oomph to bring it all together.

That could come by buffing core support options or through bringing in an elite specialisation for engineer that's designed for it, but I don't think scrapper is likely to get there without a substantial rework of the traitline - you'd probably want one major trait from each column to have some party support, and for the minors to be a little less oriented towards power DPS.

[Dadnir.5038]

Maybe you should look at things from a different perspective. How would you react if reaper had reaper's onslaught additionally grant it's quickness to up to 5 allies? I'm pretty sure all other professions would be against it.

In itself quickness isn't a thematic boon of the scrapper/engineer, just like quickness isn't a thematic boon of the reaper/necromancer. It doesn't make sense for those e-specs to share this boon. On another hand, sharing quickness is firmly ingrained into the mesmer and guardian core profession which is why they got e-specs (chrono/FB) revolving around this concept.

PvE end game is very limited by it's design. A lot of conditions are half as effective (if not totally ineffective) on boss mobs and some mechanic on which some professions rely are also severly limited in effectivness by design against. On top of that, the encounters are designed around generics mechanism that are more widely seen across all professions, leaving the more "unique" mechanisms to rot outside of the fight unless they are surprisingly effective in which case they see themself nerfed in a gifi, labelled as "exploit".

[Taril.8619]

Should Scrapper provide team Quickness?

Probably not. It could have significant ramifications on balance, most notably in WvW where Scrapper is already very strong due to their affinity for AoE cleansing/healing through Blast finisher spam.

Could Scrapper provide team Quickness?

Sure. Quickness is thematic of Scrapper alongside Superspeed and Stability. Scrapper also has some theme for providing stuff to allies via its Blast finisher focus.

As such, Scrapper granting AoE Quickness makes thematic sense. Just like it can provide AoE Superspeed (Gyroscopic Acceleration + Speed of Synergy) and AoE Stability (Mass Momentum)

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Which is pretty much just repeating something I've already acknowledged. Survivability helps a support build, because you can't support if you're dead, and it's usually more important that your supports stay standing while you can generally afford to lose a DPS or two. Scrapper still isn't support-oriented, though, although it does have support options.

@draxynnic.3719yep, thats why i want add quickness, witchout it you have not inaf vaule to be taken as support

You just don't see people trying to make support builds out of dragonhunters and soulbeasts because firebrands and druids exist (and back in the day before firebrands existed, druids and heal tempests still existed and clearly outperformed any support build you could make out of dragonhunter).

Yep, by this change i not mean to make Scrapper best support, but only to achive a option for it witchout huge lose to a team

In itself quickness isn't a thematic boon of the scrapper/engineer,

@Dadnir.5038i respect your opinion, but i can't agree with that

Quckness is thematic boon, as Scrapper provide swifness, superspeed, and trait i proposed to edit match it up, same got alot acces to it but only as self-QucknessThis change will make Scrapper support elite spec, but ofc it will not be meta, and will be overperfom by other supports, but at last will allow Scrapper to play as off-meta

Uniqe boon that enginner providing is 100 condi dmg

Support whos providing 22-25might, fury, protetion, superspeed, swifness, retaliation, stability, vigor, and regeneration (missing only Aegis and Alracity) and now QucknessAlso moving combo fields, Healing and Tanknes with mechanic that takes dmg on you from allys by bulwark gyro and hammer block

@"Taril.8619"

Should Scrapper provide team Quickness?

Probably not. It could have significant ramifications on balance, most notably in WvW where Scrapper is already very strong due to their affinity for AoE cleansing/healing through Blast finisher spam.

Yep like i told, it's more of concept, if that boon will be too strong in pvp/wvw, can be make with note "that trait is share 50% less boon duration on team" or somethink like that

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

We have discussed this already in your other thread. Scrapper Feedback

[Noah Salazar.5430]

@HnRkLnXqZ.1870 yeh but here i more asked about opinon, and focus of topic is did Scrapper Schold be Support elit spec and buff Quickness to team, and ideas how culd it do in diferent ways

Ther you have feedback and topic stricle to that mechanic ratcher than open question

[draxynnic.3719]

@Noah Salazar.5430 said:

Which is pretty much just repeating something I've already acknowledged. Survivability helps a support build, because you can't support if you're dead, and it's usually more important that your supports stay standing while you can generally afford to lose a DPS or two. Scrapper still isn't support-oriented, though, although it does have support options.

@draxynnic.3719yep, thats why i want add quickness, witchout it you have not inaf vaule to be taken as support

sigh

Missing the point. Scrapper still isn't designed to be support. You're just trying to slap on something that's OP as a bandaid to close the gap.

And yes, I've been pondering it from a balance perspective and, yes, it would be OP.

Chronos and firebrands can achieve permanent party quickness, yes, but it requires a fair amount of investment to pull off. Multiple traits, skills, and a significant part of the rotation goes into that maintenance, either directly or supporting the skills and traits that generate quickness. Your proposal would create close to perma-quickness (any guardian or mesmer could cover the gap with Feel my Wrath or Time Warp) from having a single scrapper with boon duration, or just having two scrappers which are otherwise built for pure DPS (given that Applied Force is already the DPS-oriented grandmaster for scrapper). The only requirement would be to be able to maintain ten stacks of Might. That's pretty much assumed in any high-end PvE.

Seriously, you're looking at over 40% uptime from a trait with no other investment. ArenaNet just nerfed Feel My Wrath (from a group perspective, anyway) because getting around 15% party uptime from an elite skill with no other investment was considered too good, so I don't think you're getting that. Boon chrono dedicates one of its weapon slots and most of its utilities either to generating quickness directly or speeding the recharge of skills that generate quickness. Firebrands and quickbrands dedicate two major traits and 2-3 slots of the right-hand side of their bar to pulling it off.

I'm not opposed to engineer supports getting quickness as a thing, but... it should require proper investment. Not simply one overbuffed trait which acts without input from the player and which is doing the work of half an elite specialisation on its own.

Having some party quickness being available to core engineer would be fine, because that would be similar to guardian Feel My Wrath and mesmer Time Warp, and would be something that could be built on with an elite specialisation later to make a full quickness build. ArenaNet's balance team possibly disagrees, though, since quickness used to be on Toss Elixir U and got replaced by superspeed (and the patch notes make it clear that 'it was giving too much quickness' was the reason).

Support engineer should be something that grows naturally out of core - with elite specialisations being the icing on the cake if taken - or something that has an elite specialisation that's designed for it. Not something that relies on a single overpowered trait to function.

[Taril.8619]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:Chronos and firebrands can achieve permanent party quickness, yes, but it requires a fair amount of investment to pull off.

Firebrand doesn't need "A fair amount of investment" to pull of 100% party quickness.

They just switch out, 2 traits, 2 utilities and 1 sigil. That's it. They don't need Conc gear, they don't need to do much different and the traits they swap from aren't even that high impact (Legendary Lore provides very little given that Radiant Fire + Runes of Balthazar provide 70% burn duration and the rest of their gear + food provides the remaining 30% burn duration. Meaning that LL just provides Regen/Prot on F2/F3 which are not major concerns and Unrelenting Criticism is also not high impact due to not working when using Scepter, Books or OH skills in addition to having low Bleeding duration due to not stacking Expertise)

That said, if Scrapper were to get party Quickness, I definitely wouldn't put it on Applied Force, since that's the personal DPS trait which doesn't make sense to stick party buffing on. Instead I'd say having Adaptive Armor/Kinetic Stabilizers changed into a trait that makes your Function Gyro apply Quickness to allies and increases the target cap of Function Gyro (With reduced recharge penalty for additional targets) so that the GM traits offer a choice between personal DPS with Applied Force for bonus power and personal Quickness (Possibly also reduce CD/increase duration of the proc to make it more useful) or this other choice for party support (With synergy with other party support traits like Mass Momentum and Gyroscopic Acceleration)

Could maybe even try and move either Mass Momentum or Gyroscopic Acceleration onto Master tier allowing a trifecta of support traits to be picked up to provide all 3 Scrapper themed effects to allies.

As far as Core Engie getting ally Quickness... Would make sense on Toss Elixir U given that Elixir U provides self Quickness, wouldn't be too odd to have the toss also give Quickness (Especially since it is still thematically speeding allies up with the Superspeed it currently gives)

[Vagrant.7206]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Noah Salazar.5430" said:Which is pretty much just repeating something I've already acknowledged. Survivability helps a support build, because you can't support if you're dead, and it's usually more important that your supports stay standing while you can generally afford to lose a DPS or two. Scrapper still isn't support-oriented, though, although it does have support options.

sigh

Missing the point. Scrapper still isn't designed to be support. You're just trying to slap on something that's OP as a bandaid to close the gap.

And yes, I've been pondering it from a balance perspective and, yes, it would be OP.

Just because it isn't designed to be support, doesn't mean it doesn't work well that way. Scrapper simply doesn't have a place in high-end PvE aside from being a great healer and cleanser with nothing else to show. Healbrand (Quickness), Alacrity Renegade (Alacrity), and Druid (Fury) occupy unique positions that everybody else wants in their high-end PvE supports, so it would make sense to give scrapper access to team support through quickness or alacrity, as those fit the theme of Scrapper.

I personally lean towards adding alacrity in to scrapper's skillset (such as part of the F-Gyro) or traits (Damage Dampener and Kinetic Stabilizers are not useful as-is) for the reason that alacrity isn't as much of a balancing problem in competitive game modes when compared to quickness. However, quickness might be an interesting addition instead, but it would have to be far more limited. There would have to be game mode differences as well to compensate.

To put it simply -- very few people play scrapper in PvE. Even fewer play it in high-end PvE, and almost nobody seeks out a scrapper healer, even though it's a solid choice. It simply doesn't have a place in PvE, and could use one.

[Kodama.6453]

@Vagrant.7206 said:To put it simply -- very few people play scrapper in PvE. Even fewer play it in high-end PvE, and almost nobody seeks out a scrapper healer, even though it's a solid choice. It simply doesn't have a place in PvE, and could use one.

Scrapper isn't played for one simple reason: it is a tank spec in a game that doesn't need tanks.Hence why people are using the spec for support builds instead, even if the big majority of traits in scrapper's trait line doesn't provide anything for that playstyle.

Spellbreaker shares the same problem, but worse since warrior/spellbreaker can't support realistically. Meaning that the only role available for spellbreaker would be dps and it gets outperformed by berserker in that role.

What we need to fix scrapper in PvE is an actual reason to bring tank specs instead of forcing these specs into playstyles they were not intended for.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Taril.8619 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:Chronos and firebrands can achieve permanent party quickness, yes, but it requires a fair amount of investment to pull off.

Firebrand doesn't need "A fair amount of investment" to pull of 100% party quickness.

They just switch out, 2 traits, 2 utilities and 1 sigil. That's it. They don't need Conc gear, they don't need to do much different and the traits they swap from aren't even that high impact (Legendary Lore provides very little given that Radiant Fire + Runes of Balthazar provide 70% burn duration and the rest of their gear + food provides the remaining 30% burn duration. Meaning that LL just provides Regen/Prot on F2/F3 which are not major concerns and Unrelenting Criticism is also not high impact due to not working when using Scepter, Books or OH skills in addition to having low Bleeding duration due to not stacking Expertise)

That's half of their sigils, half of their utilities, and two thirds of their Firebrand majors. The difference between a condi quickbrand and a full DPS condi firebrand is about 4K dps on the benchmarks. The player also has to activate their mantras on a reasonably precise schedule to maximise uptime, including activating their heal skill specifically to trigger Liberator's Vow, which might make it unavailable at a circumstance where it's needed for actual healing.

I'd call that "A fair amount of investment". I'm not saying that party quickness is the only thing it provides. Obviously, that's not the case - condi quickbrand provides some DPS (albeit less than a pure DPS firebrand), healbrand provides healing, and chronomancer provides alacrity. But it's still a good portion of the build. Not simply taking a trait and passively providing high uptime as long as the low bar of having 10 might (which engineer can maintain on itself) is met.

That said, if Scrapper were to get party Quickness, I definitely wouldn't put it on Applied Force, since that's the personal DPS trait which doesn't make sense to stick party buffing on. Instead I'd say having Adaptive Armor/Kinetic Stabilizers changed into a trait that makes your Function Gyro apply Quickness to allies and increases the target cap of Function Gyro (With reduced recharge penalty for additional targets) so that the GM traits offer a choice between personal DPS with Applied Force for bonus power and personal Quickness (Possibly also reduce CD/increase duration of the proc to make it more useful) or this other choice for party support (With synergy with other party support traits like Mass Momentum and Gyroscopic Acceleration)

Could maybe even try and move either Mass Momentum or Gyroscopic Acceleration onto Master tier allowing a trifecta of support traits to be picked up to provide all 3 Scrapper themed effects to allies.

As far as Core Engie getting ally Quickness... Would make sense on Toss Elixir U given that Elixir U provides self Quickness, wouldn't be too odd to have the toss also give Quickness (Especially since it is still thematically speeding allies up with the Superspeed it currently gives)

Could do it that way, but if it was done that way, it'd probably be closer to being an equivalent of Feel My Wrath rather than being a means of sustaining party quickness on its own. It'd help, but I think a full support-oriented elite spec would be more satisfying in the long run.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

hmh good point

what you think about spliting it to two than :

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Applied_Force

Self Quckness 3s->4sAdd number of Target 5Share 50% of Quickness to allys ( i mean 50% from that trait not overall 50% from scrapper)invterval is still 10sStack Treshold 10->15

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Expert_Examinationaoe Quckness 1s-> Stuning, Dazing, knocking, or lauching enemy

i base more on quckness as right now it's builded in scrapper but only self and is more theme of it togheter with swfiness and superspeed

So overall with 100% boon duration it is :

4s+2s evry stun/daze

prob best option culd be https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personal_Battering_Ram

Price you pay isa) you need keep up15 stack treshold or you not get Qucknessb) -15% dmg cuz you not taking https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Object_in_Motionc) you need wast stuns to keep up Qucknessd) you need have 90%-100% boon duration gear for effectivly share Qucknesse) you need land stun, if you not hit it or miss in pve/pvp thay yeh, you not geting Quickness

If full pover dps decicde to use it it will be 2s+1s so you need 3-5dps Scrappers to keep it up perm (asumming thay hit all stunes) (hammer stun is 20s)or 2 Scrappers but only to both of them, and ratcher dificulity and cd will not allow to perm stack it

@Vagrant.7206@draxynnic.3719@Kodama.6453@Taril.8619@Blood Red Arachnid.2493

what you think?

[draxynnic.3719]

Hrrrmn. Two main concerns, although I reserve the right to add more if I think on them, and one ancillary concern:

The first is that this would impact on existing solo builds using Applied Force. Getting and maintaining 10 might solo isn't too hard for an engineer, which is probably part of the reason a trait like that exists in the first place.

The second is that I think something like "group quickness" should really have some player agency involved in activating it. You can see this in the existing traits that grant group quickness all requiring the player to do something to trigger them - using a heal skill (Liberator's Vow), using a skill that grants aegis or stability (Stalwart Speed) or using a shatter (Seize the Moment) - and in both the firebrand and chrono, a big part of it is also skills that grant quickness directly such as Well of Action, Tides of Time, and Mantra of Potence. This isn't just a "the player should have to do something" thing - if for whatever reason you're not managing perma-quickness, there may be times when it's worthwhile saving the quickness for something specific like a burn phase rather than just activating it on recharge.

Technically speaking, quickness-on-CC would achieve this, but that rolls into my ancillary concern: this relies on having a CC-able target. Many bosses can't be CC'd, can only be CC'd at certain intervals, or can only be CC'd at specific times. This would make the benefit of the trait inaccessible during these periods.

If, hypothetically, I was to try to make scrapper into a quickness bot, what I'd probably do is make a "When you grant superspeed, also grant quickness" trait. You'd then have Speed of Synergy, Gyroscopic Acceleration, Bypass Coating, and Toss Elixir U all serving as possible vectors to grant party quickness, but you're not getting it all out of a single trait, and you still have to activate skills to get it. 2-3 seconds would probably be reasonable (by my calculation, going full gyros with one of them being Blast Gyro would get pretty close to 100% uptime with base boon duration at 3 seconds base Quickness, but going full gyro is a pretty significant investment. The Snowcrows heal scrapper with +100% boon duration would get about 65% uptime without making any change to the build apart from taking the trait, and swapping Elixir R for Blast Gyro would bump it up to 1.09%. Higher with alacrity, of course.)

Mind you, such a trait might well compete with the current Applied Force.

I do think, though, that a new elite specialisation for support would still be a more elegant solution, since that could be built from the ground up to work well as a support specialisation rather than trying to hook new functionality onto existing mechanics. Including having skills that grant quickness directly rather than through trait interactions (I don't think any of the existing gyros would fit for that, neither do I think any of them should be made into a quickness gyro).