Recommendations for making Deadeye Meta!

[Zlater.6789]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I want to use this for trash but the long cooldown, short duration, and small area makes the skill not worth the utility slot. As for damage, SF deals 395 DPS in my build so for 5 ticks, that's 1975 total damage. Since there's no slow down mechanic like cripple to keep targets within the AoE, the target will walk out of the AoE after 2 ticks -- that's only 790 total damage (1185 for 3 ticks). Now compare this to Caltrops using the same build, it applies 2 stacks of bleed for 5 seconds with a total damage of 220. So after 5 ticks, if my calculation is correct, Caltrops have dealt over 3000 damage after 5 seconds -- or 600 DPS. This damage is applied to every enemy within the AoE, not just on the marked target. If the target is not marked, SF deals less damage to them, thus it's not a good skill for AoE-ing trash mobs.I can agree with it lasting 10s and I think that might be better. But I'm going to critizicise your math, you understand that both condition damage and condition duration are calculated in the tool tip, however critical strike chance and critical damage modifiers and the plethora or +% damage modifiers are not included in the tooltip? Thieves do 100% crit with a 240% crit modifier, then add all of the other modifiers and add standard party buffs if you want, also don't forget to include the 7% bonus per malice, you will find that shadow flare easily outperforms Caltrops when there is no condition damage.If the goal is to balance DE with DD, then it will take more than changing M7. The first problem they need to solve is; why DE is using D/x or P/P instead of Rifle? Then there's the issue of mobility and survivability. Maybe the damage issue can be solved by making the Rifle bullets piercing and/or unblockable. M7 can reduce the initiative cost of the skills by 2. One in the Chamber can reduce Cantrip cooldown by 20%. My point is, DE requires a lot of tweaks to improve its performance in combat. I really want to see changes more than what you're suggesting -- not just for one trait, but overall change. As it stands, I still prefer DD only because of the 3rd dodge and the GM traits. In my opinion, these traits should swap with Acrobatics and give Acro 3rd dodge.I'm just touching on psychology here, for example no one thinks about the added cd to backstab anymore, why?We could discuss the clunky nature of Shadow retreat, and I would agree with you, but the devs would not because that was at some point a deliberate design decision. But they would never be able to discern if we don't like it because actually rifle is a bad weapon overall or if it is actually seriously getting viable negative feedback? So are we upset because rifle is trash, or is it actually legitimately an annoyance?This is the reason why I didn't talk about the tiny changes, its because it is impossible to know how our perspective will change based on a prior balance change.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Zlater.6789 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I want to use this for trash but the long cooldown, short duration, and small area makes the skill not worth the utility slot. As for damage, SF deals 395 DPS in my build so for 5 ticks, that's 1975 total damage. Since there's no slow down mechanic like cripple to keep targets within the AoE, the target will walk out of the AoE after 2 ticks -- that's only 790 total damage (1185 for 3 ticks). Now compare this to Caltrops using the same build, it applies 2 stacks of bleed for 5 seconds with a total damage of 220. So after 5 ticks, if my calculation is correct, Caltrops have dealt over 3000 damage after 5 seconds -- or 600 DPS. This damage is applied to every enemy within the AoE, not just on the marked target. If the target is not marked, SF deals less damage to them, thus it's not a good skill for AoE-ing trash mobs.I can agree with it lasting 10s and I think that might be better. But I'm going to critizicise your math, you understand that both condition damage and condition duration are calculated in the tool tip, however critical strike chance and critical damage modifiers and the plethora or +% damage modifiers are not included in the tooltip? Thieves do 100% crit with a 240% crit modifier, then add all of the other modifiers and add standard party buffs if you want, also don't forget to include the 7% bonus per malice, you will find that shadow flare easily outperforms Caltrops when there is no condition damage.

Side note: Caltrops deals 1240 total damage with 2 stacks of bleed for 5 seconds in a condition damage gear compared to 220 total damage in a non-condition damage gear. All numbers are estimated.

My point is, without anything to slow down the target, the full potential damage of SF will not be dealt since they can simply walk out of the small AoE in a couple of ticks. I know that my Math is off, but that's beside the point. Also, the Caltrops damage I use is based on the same gear set Berserker. Caltrops deals more than 600 DPS on a condition damage gear within that 5 seconds span -- Caltrops lasts 10 seconds also. The 7% damage boost only applies to the marked target, all other targets within the AoE receive non-buffed damage. So even with my non-condition gear, due to Caltrops cripple effect and long duration, Caltrops deals higher total damage than SF. And that is pretty sad coming from an Elite spec.

If the goal is to balance DE with DD, then it will take more than changing M7. The first problem they need to solve is; why DE is using D/x or P/P instead of Rifle? Then there's the issue of mobility and survivability. Maybe the damage issue can be solved by making the Rifle bullets piercing and/or unblockable. M7 can reduce the initiative cost of the skills by 2. One in the Chamber can reduce Cantrip cooldown by 20%. My point is, DE requires a lot of tweaks to improve its performance in combat. I really want to see changes more than what you're suggesting -- not just for one trait, but overall change. As it stands, I still prefer DD only because of the 3rd dodge and the GM traits. In my opinion, these traits should swap with Acrobatics and give Acro 3rd dodge.I'm just touching on psychology here, for example no one thinks about the added cd to backstab anymore, why?

It was a non-issue to begin with that others are blowing out of proportions.

We could discuss the clunky nature of Shadow retreat, and I would agree with you, but the devs would not because that was at some point a deliberate design decision. But they would never be able to discern if we don't like it because actually rifle is a bad weapon overall or if it is actually seriously getting viable negative feedback? So are we upset because rifle is trash, or is it actually legitimately an annoyance?

Rifle is not trash. The implementation of the Kneel mechanic is. I have suggested that Kneel can be a Stance buff rather than physical state. Of course, some cost reduction on skills is also needed, thus Shadow Retreat should cost 3 given how unreliable it is due to shadowstep issues.

This is the reason why I didn't talk about the tiny changes, its because it is impossible to know how our perspective will change based on a prior balance change.

DE's skills and traits need to be optimized to improve playstyle. If they intended that the DE Sniper will be dead when discovered, then mission accomplished. However, if their intention is to give DE a fighting chance, then they have work to do.

They have made several mistakes when they made Daredevil that is now resonating to the Deadeye -- for example, 3rd dodge. This 3rd dodge was in Acrobatics in a form of Feline Grace and because of the decision to move this to Daredevil, Deadeye now suffers from the lack of survivability and mobility. Thus to improve the playing experience of Deadeye, they first need to admit that they messed up. They also need to apologize to the Thief players by solidifying the Core traits so they don't have to deal with the same issue every expansion -- the can start by returning the 3rd dodge to Acrobatics. There are other issues by that's it for now.

[cyberwolf.5830]

they just need to give steal back and add mark and new abilities as F3/F4, share same CD so you could choose to steal or mark

[Zacchary.6183]

@cyberwolf.5830 said:they just need to give steal back and add mark and new abilities as F3/F4, share same CD so you could choose to steal or mark

They are on the same CD but Renewing Gaze is what recharges mark.

[Raiff.6742]

Here's my suggestion: more education to players of the game on how the spec is supposed to work.

[Grimheart.2853]

2: While it could be used as a crude plug to just shoehorn deadeye into a raid comp, it's literally nothing more than that.

Unique DPS modifiers are the plague of PvE diversity, not the cure.

[Zlater.6789]

@Grimheart.2853 said:2: While it could be used as a crude plug to just shoehorn deadeye into a raid comp, it's literally nothing more than that.

Unique DPS modifiers are the plague of PvE diversity, not the cure.Oh, why do you think that? I would have thought with the addition of even more new buffs in PoF, maybe it might be nice if thief had something too; because lets be honest, do you really see them ever removing all of the unique modifiers?

[Grimheart.2853]

@Zlater.6789 said:

@Grimheart.2853 said:2: While it could be used as a crude plug to just shoehorn deadeye into a raid comp, it's literally nothing more than that.

Unique DPS modifiers are the plague of PvE diversity, not the cure.Oh, why do you think that? I would have thought with the addition of even more new buffs in PoF, maybe it might be nice if thief had something too; because lets be honest, do you really see them ever removing all of the unique modifiers?

I don't know if I see them doing that, but I am for sure convinced it would be the right course of action designwise. Besides, it's not like they're not trying at all, the alacrity is already being shared with rev, instead of being monopolized by chrono.

Unique buffs don't create squad composition diversity, they expand the amount of checkboxes in forced quotas. You don't give an opportunity for different classes to fill different roles, you create a scenario where they fill a token slot, contributing to the stiff meta, instead of improving it.

As I already said in my previous post, while a unique modifier may help forcefully push a class into the raid composition, it is lazy and low quality balance. Which is why I feel that if we are going to put effort into making suggestions for better balance, maybe we should put some more effort to actually suggest better balance, instead of asking for more lazy plugs.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Elxdark.9702 said:Deadeye will never be viable in PvP unless they change the mark and malice mechanic.

It doesn't really matter if you buff rifle to do 12312312 more damage or improve traits or whatever, the fact that mark is stupidly inferior to steal it's enough for deadeye to be out the meta.Malice is the opposite of thief goal, thief needs to be fast, killing targets quickly move and jump into another fight as soon as you can, you can't do that with malice because you need to wait to actually do damage.You can also add kneel which is horribly bad designed for pvp.

Conclusion : Deadeye is not going to be viable or at least playable in top tier unless they change its mechanics (mark/malice/kneel).

You must suck in PvP with deadeye then. Deadeye slams players and can be an absolute bastard when defending points. "Just walk behind a wall and Deadeye is useless?" There are normally no walls on the point. You want that point you gotta survive getting gunned down.

Most of the bad ones I've been seeing have been relying on the fact that Daredevil had so much mobility that they forgot how to move around and take opportunities when they can. That, or they don't understand that their utilities are meant to be used. Can't tell you how quickly "Binding Shadow" became my number one cantrip. The only sign of it coming is the thief raising his hand up into the air, which can be for a number of things. If you can count that small delay, you can ruin them before they recover, as well as get a massive spike of damage from your runes for disables and knock downs.