Quickness Support-Scrapper is a Novel Idea ... but a Fundamentally Flawed Approach

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

A Meta is a meta because it evolves around the most efficient way to play a game. In high level content, you want the most efficient builds in order to tackle said content. And if there are options that are just better, then there is no real variety in builds, it just makes one build objectively better than the other.

 

No, YOU might want the most efficient builds. There are players that simply want to play how they want ... and this game allows them to do so. That means there IS real variety in builds in this game, EVEN if there are builds that are optimal. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, YOU might want the most efficient builds. This game doesn't force you to play that way. The game IS designed to allow you to play how you want. 

Unless you have never played high level content in a group before, your comment seems incredibly out of touch. I already provided reasons, why an HFB is much more likely to get a place in groups than a support scrapper.

This isn't just me, no matter how much you want to attack me personally.

 

I repeat: If two classes try to fill the same role, but one does it's job better than the other, what do you think gets picked? It really isn't rocket science.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Imba.9451

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Imba.9451 said:

I repeat: If to classes try to fill the same role, but one does it's job better than the other, what do you think gets picked? It really isn't rocket science.

No it's not rocket science so you shouldn't be so rigid in your understanding. If you are getting 'picked' that's because of how you choose to play. This game allows people to play how they want and be successful. That has nothing to do with being 'picked'. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No it's not rocket science ... if you are getting 'picked' that's because of how you choose to play. This game allows people to play how they want and be successful. That has nothing to do with being 'picked'. 

Group searches for healer.

Group has everything covered except quickness and healer.

Group gets to choose between HFB and support scrapper.

 

What do you think will happen in most cases this scenario occurs?

Edited May 26, 2021 by Imba.9451

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Group searches for healer.

Group has everything covered except quickness and healer.

Griup gets to choose between HFB and support scrapper.

 

What do you think will happen in most cases this scenario occurs?

That's your choice if you play that way. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying if it does, that's not fixed by Anet, that's fixed by players making different choices.

 

Many people don't choose to 'search' and 'pick' players. They just play what they want, team with people that also play how they want and they are successful. Nothing you say will change that. It's how the game has worked since the beginning. 

 

It's no surprise someone thinks Quickness Support Scrapper is 'flawed' if they think being 'picked' by groups is what legitimizes how people should play. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's your choice if you play that way. Many people don't choose to 'search' and 'pick' players. They just play what they want, team with people that also play how they want and they are successful. Nothing you say will change that. It's how the game has worked since the beginning. 

You and I clearly have very different experiences with lfg.

I mean, I can also choose to play a support heal warrior. Yes, thats my choice. But with that being my choice, I also would have to accept the fact that, regarding the meta, I probably have a lot lower chances of getting into a group than the usual HFB.

 

What I CAN do and what provides most benefits for a group (and by extension, me) are two very different things. And like I said, this holds especially true with support builds. I'm perryt confident in saying that a very minor fraction of people use support build to roam open world. So while you could at least do that with suboptimal builds, this isn't a good option for support builds, because you will take forever to get anything done.

 

Also, the game has changed. You could do dungeons back then, wich were a simple matter of "get zerk equip and smash things". Thats not the case anymore for high level content. The content supports are actually needed.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Imba.9451

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

You and I clearly have very different experiences with lfg.

 

No we have had the same experiences ... I just choose a different way to play that allows me to play how I want, because that's important to me. And the same goes for lots of people. 

 

Hey, if not 'taking forever' is important to you, then you should be choosing to play meta. That's got NOTHING to do with the ability of non-meta builds to be successful in content or why Anet should buff them. Again, do not confuse choices you made in getting teams that want meta players to 'flaws' in how Anet designs classes. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No we have had the same experiences ... I just choose a different way to play that allows me to play how I want.

So you are in my head, can access my memories and compare them with your own?

Thats a talent I wouldn't waste on the gw2 forums if I were you.

 

Sarcasm aside, the experiences I made did prevent me from expermenting with off meta builds, because I do not want to wait for half an hour until an inexperienced group or a group that simply is desperate enough for any form of heal does accept me.

 

Thats the Meta. A Meta evolves from the design of the game. And many players stick to the meta. Nothing you say will change that.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Imba.9451

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Thats the Meta. A Meta evolves from the design of the game. And many players stick to the meta. Nothing you say will change that.

That's true ... but what is meta and how it comes about has nothing to do with how non-meta builds are successful in content or why Anet should buff them.

 

The fact remains that while the meta evolves from the game design, the game design does not result from what is meta. Therefore, something 'not being as good as meta' is not a reason to buff non-meta builds. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's true ... but it still has nothing to do with how non-meta builds are successful in content or why Anet should buff them.

Wrong. For the reasons I described about 3 or 4 times already: If one build performs objectively better than another, there is little incentive to use another build.

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

 

Hey, if not 'taking forever' is important to you, then you should be choosing to play meta. That's got NOTHING to do with the ability of non-meta builds to be successful in content or why Anet should buff them. Again, do not confuse choices you made in getting teams that want meta players to 'flaws' in how Anet designs classes. 

If arenanet designs a class that does not fulfil a role properly based on the outlines they provided, then their design is flawed. Either that of the class, or that of the meta. Because they created something that does not mesh well with the other thing they created.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Imba.9451

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Wrong. For the reasons I described about 3 or 4 times already: If one build performs objectively better than another, there is little incentive to use another build.

 

Again, for meta people, that's true. For lots of other people who choose different ways to play, it's not. So it's not wrong ... it's just the reality you limit yourself to based on your choices. Your limited experience and choices (and the limited experience and similar choices other meta people) is not a reason for Anet to buff non-meta builds ... because those builds already can be used successfully with people who don't limit themselves like you do. 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, for meta people, that's true. For lots of other people who choose different ways to play, it's not. So it's not wrong ... it's just the reality you limit yourself to based on your choices. Your limited experience and adherence to meta builds (and the limited experiences of all the other meta people) is not a reason for Anet to buff non-meta builds ... because those builds already can be used successfully with people who don't limit themselves like you do. 

Simple example: If Arenanet designs a class that performs objectively worse than any other class in any area, be it dps or support, then sure, you can probably do alot of stuff with it. But calling for buffs would not be unwaranted, because it should neither be in the players or Anets interest to have a class, that simply brings nothing to the tables that other wouldn't do better.

 

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Simple example: If Arenanet designs a class that performs objectively worse than any other class in any area, be it dps or support, then sure, you can probably do alot of stuff with it. But calling for buffs would not be unwaranted, because it should neither be in the players or Anets interest to have a class, that simply brings nothing to the tables that other wouldn't do better.

 

Except that doesn't make sense, because there are reasons that people play builds other than 'who does it best' ... and you would see that if you didn't choose to limit who you team with based on meta either. That's meta-think and it's not relevant in this game because the content doesn't require meta builds to be successful. 

 

I mean, don't tell me that just because another class 'does it better', that anything less than that brings nothing to the table. That's absurd. Now I know you're a meta pusher. 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except that doesn't make sense, because there are reasons that people play builds other than 'who does it best' ... and you would see that if you didn't choose to limit who you team with based on meta either. That's meta-think and it's not relevant in this game because the content doesn't require meta builds to be successful. 

 

 

It is not my choice who a team wants in their party. My only choice is what I want to play. Personally, I do not mind setting up a party of, say, heal nec, Quickness dps scrapper and alac mesmer.

Or going for the Meme with full Minion Master Necro stack.

However, the area influence I have is over what I do, not what others want from a team composition, unless I know them and can convince them to go for the memes.

 

Additionally, just because you like doing something that is objectively less efficient than other things, thats up to you. Thats your choice. But you do not get to dictate what others like to do. And you do not get to dictate what Arenanet tries to accomplish with their balancing. Balancing that, as I might add, always strifes to provide... well, "balance" between the classes, elevating underperforming and nerfing overperforming ones. (Ideally. How much they succed is up for debate, but their patchnotes pretty clearly convey this idea.)

The whole idea of balancing would become irrelevant if your logic would be applied in it's most consecuencial way.

 

Some game design choices define a Meta, no matter how aware the developer is or was during those choices. The resulting Meta is something a developer needs to take into account in order to create additional content, because if they don't, the new content can feel out of place and/or underwhelming quickly. So they either design the new content around that meta in a way that helps to shape it, or they try to change the meta (by balancing) in order to make the new content work in the way they want.

None of those exist in a seperate bubble.

 

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

I mean, don't tell me that just because another class 'does it better', that anything less than that brings nothing to the table. That's absurd. Now I know you're a meta pusher.

Stop strawmanning please.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Imba.9451

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Imba.9451 said:

It is not my choice who a team wants in their party.

It's your choice to play in that team. Again, you don't think I've had this conversation with people a few dozen times? (no joke, at LEAST that many). If you make the right choices, meta is irrelevant to how you play ... unless you choose meta to be your guide. 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

18 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's your choice to play in that team. 

Yes, and I can choose to either not play or play what is demanded. Or wait and hope that I get lucky enough to get picked.

 

Also, you simply choosing to cherry pick parts of my post to deliver one liners shows me, that you seem to argue for arguments sake. I consider this discussion concluded, we will never reach an agreement, and further discussion will only lead to me either presenting the same arguments (wich you choose to ignore) again and again in different wording or me getting baited into becoming hostile.

 

Hence, let's agree to disagree.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Imba.9451

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Yes, and I can choose to either not play or play what is demanded. Or wait and hope that I get lucky enough to get picked.

 

Also, you simply choosing to cherry picks parts of my post to deliver one liners shows me, that you seem to argue for arguments sake. I considers this discussion concluded, we will never reach an agreement, and further discussion will only lead to me either presenting the same arguments again and again in different wording or me getting baited into becoming hostile.

 

Hence, let's agree to disagree.

It's good we don't agree, because you are wrong. Non-meta builds don't need a buff just because they aren't meta. That's not debatable. If you choose to play what is demanded so you get 'picked', that's not a reason for Anet to change other builds so you can play them in within your restricted 'OK build to play so pick me' playing approach. If you choose to be a slave to the meta, you can't complain other builds aren't meta. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Noah Salazar.5430]

@Imba.9451

@Obtena.7952

You both right at same time

 

What Imba says, if team wuld chose hfb/hqcrap thay prob wuld prefer hfb

 

But

 

Also Obtena have some right, it's not that much problem atm

 

before to play heal scrap you must do pre-made squad by yourself 

 

Now it's no longer problem

 

you can say your hqcrap and team will not mind to replace hfb for you

 

My opinion is based on https://killproof.me/proof/GRNv/tokens

 

And by logs (when quickness was 2s) it's not look that bad

https://dps.report/16ya-20210524-211750_kc

https://dps.report/7YYJ-20210524-214744_xera

https://dps.report/Xg9P-20210524-195455_gors

https://dps.report/vwUT-20210524-221425_sam

https://dps.report/UAaO-20210524-194111_vg

 

What Scraper have is big swifness,vigor,superspeed uptime

I did close Quickness to Quick Brand

About fury if you look on logs, most classes have 50-60% self fury generation so runes of pack totaly cover that

Also ss+ tier condi cleases that can carry at https://dps.report/UbaH-20210524-203003_sloth

 

About aegis, insted you have x2 amount of healing to that point that if you spam 1, person on samarog that got cc will not die even if your squad is pepo about cc 

 

You can also tank vg, goros and some easier bosses only with minstriel weapons (witchout bigger problems)

 

now it's totaly easy to play it as you need only 60-80% boon dura insted of 100% and thats alowing you to skip alchemy and take firearms for pinpoint distribution (aoe 100 condi dmg)

 

as now stunbars  do "100% condi dmg" , and your uniqe buff is perm

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No we have had the same experiences ... I just choose a different way to play that allows me to play how I want, because that's important to me. And the same goes for lots of people. 

 

Hey, if not 'taking forever' is important to you, then you should be choosing to play meta. That's got NOTHING to do with the ability of non-meta builds to be successful in content or why Anet should buff them. Again, do not confuse choices you made in getting teams that want meta players to 'flaws' in how Anet designs classes. 

 

Social pressure is real, and has as much of an impact on your ability to play the game as any hard-coded elements.  It doesn't matter if quickness scrapper can complete all content in the game if nobody will let you.  The player base does not respect the PHIW mentality.  It is very much a "flaw" in how Anet designs classes if they completely disregard community standards and enforcement.  If Anet does that, then they're effectively making changes for a game that nobody plays.  

 

 What is also very real is profession favoritism, and limited playtime restricting the number of professions a player can have fully outfitted.  Players want to both be effective while playing their favorite profession, and to disregard this is to ignore human nature.  Due to community imposed expectations on performance, all professions are in competition with one another for the finite space afforded to most game modes.  The simple (in concept) solution is to make it so each spec has something that is either uniquely useful to contribute, or equal performance to another spec who performs the same actions.  So, if Anet puts in a new trait/ability/whatever that attempts do this but fails, then it is bad design.  If anything, it is an insult.

 

Tl;dr of this: Quit harassing people whenever they complain that profession design doesn't meet community standards.  It is a legitimate complaint.  

[Noah Salazar.5430]

 

Quote

 if nobody will let you.

 

like i told in up, it's no longer a problem

 

You can totaly go for raids/drms/fractals/strikes as hqcrap atm with 2,5s quickness buff (i not had problem even with 2s quickness)

 

My opinion is from eu servers, no one was agressive to me when i picked Heal Quick Scrapper even if team was looking on hfb 

 

Remeber only that if you join raids/strikes go ask did ppl are ok to replace hfb, don't be mean to force role and all ppl will be fine to you

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Obtena.7952]

 

1 hour ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

... if nobody will let you

Except people DO let you use non-meta builds, so that doesn't make sense. I mean, again, if people aren't letting you, it's because you choose the path to that. 

 

1 hour ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Tl;dr of this: Quit harassing people whenever they complain that profession design doesn't meet community standards.  It is a legitimate complaint.  

It's not harassment. It's a discussion about changing something on the class ... and dispelling any ridiculous reasons to do so. Sure, if something is deficient, buff it but not being meta is NOT a reason for that to happen. In fact, buffing something just because it's not the most efficient or best is not a reason to buff ANYTHING. Not everything needs to be most efficient or the best. It just needs to be a meaningful choice so players can enjoy it. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

 

Tl;dr of this: Quit harassing people whenever they complain that profession design doesn't meet community standards.  It is a legitimate complaint.  

So much this.

I do not know what I dislike more: Questionable design decisions that are objectively flawed, or the gatekeeping mentality that some people in forums of all games display when adressing those flaws.

It should be perfectly fine to put the spotlight on things that people take issue with, instead of trying to belittle their point of view.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Imba.9451

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

So much this.

I do not know what I dislike more: Questionable design decisions that are objectively flawed, or the gatekeeping mentality that some people in forums of all games display when adressing those flaws.

It should be perfectly fine to put the spotlight on things that people take issue with, instead of trying to belittle their point of view.

There isn't a problem with putting a spotlight on things ... but it's important that this spotlight is done in a way that's honest and real. This approach to quickness support scrapper is not fundamentally flawed  because people choose to play in a way that allows other players to restrict the builds they can play. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952