Please save this class that has been nerfed to the ground in pve contents

[Xeon.5768]

As the title suggests, how does it make sense to nerf the class dps to the ground (and yes it is ground and no arguments), while still not giving it any other benefits?

 

The point of this may 11th patch to me is to mega-buff all the condi classes in pve contents, with special attention on their performance in fractals with the presence of exposed state. I do agree this is a good change to have more players try condi classes in this 5 man content. On the other hand, you decided to nerf the dps potential of pwr-based builds, slb/DH/weaver/holosmith/berserker, to limit their peak dmg output again in the 5 man intense contents. Your decisions to nerf pwr classes and buff condi classes in general is fine to me, until I tested multiple classes on my own recently, I got very upset about the soulbeast' performance.

 

The power soulbeast build in particular, has been nerf-ed to the ground, which outputs even lower than a power reaper, a class that is very self-sufficient in boons, has 25 might, quickness, and 100% crit chance when entering shroud, and very tanky because of life force. After the patch, the pwr soulbeast, as tested by the recent golem benchmark, can only hit at 34k/sec (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6aovVhudV8), while many other pwr classes can get 37k+/sec (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LnPqIaS5vA), with a few classes can maintain 39k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj7qTCXPpx8) or higher. How does it make sense to nerf a class to the ground, whose skills are so easy to get interrupted (i.e. barrage and whirling defense, the highest dmg weapon skills), and squashy in a lot of encounters, also lack of sustain such as invul, stab, or cleanse? 

 

Lets talk about condition soulbeast. Condition soulbeast has been nerfed due to the change of one wolf pack. The change of torment does not affect it because it doesnt have that condition as its main dmg source. How does it make sense you nerf this class build to a 35k benchmark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr-gJuN3ECA&t=9s), while a vast majority of the condi classes got buffed to reach 40k/sec golem benchmark?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDCPeqmRnPQ

Let alone you make the condi Deadeye 46k benchmark come into being.

Beside, condi slb even underperforms condition sourge now, a class that is almost braindead to play and skip many mechanics (e.g. insane barrier which is useful in many raid encounters, epi sorrows to skip CC like in fractal CM100)

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gw2+condition+scourge&sp=EgIIAw%3D%3D

Do you actually know a 8 scourge comp to win many raid/strike bosses safely that have been populating in raid selling communities? I have no problem in these sales, nor did I hate scourge, but a class deserves the balance between dps and sustain, not everything altogether. It is fine you make a beginner-friendly class but it doesn't make sense to make it as rewarding as other classes that is more difficult to rotate and require more adaptive thinking and knowledge of encounters (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmY0VOU8cK4&t=12s).

 

You literally kill this class in raids or any other competitive pve contents. If you hate Sic-Em, you can nerf it as you did, but please consider improving its sustained dps, to the same level as other classes. Consider improving soulbeast attributes from 150 to 400, or Furious strength from 10% to 15% at least. Also consider adding some torments to its condi build to have the class benefit from your changes. 

 

Thank you!

@Fire Attunement.9835

 

1st Edit:

"Looking into deeper, pwr slb is a meta class in fractals, similar to pwr Ren,  is almost always used in every speed clear benchmarked by SC/DT members inside fractals.  This is not only because slb has great personal burst potential with sic em and one wolf pack, but what’s really busted is the stance sharing through Leader of the Pack. Many of the speed kills are simply impossible if you decide to disable or reduce the effects of stance sharing (e.g. increasing the follow-up attack interval from 0.25 sec to 1 sec for allies), while still keeping sic em and one wolf pack for slb player as is. That being said, as Lizardguard suggested, it would make more sense to me to have a LIGHT touch on soulbeast's PERSONAL burst potential, while applying the nerf to stance sharing which slb grants to allies. This is the most effective way to prevent speed clear like 30 sec mama or 17 sec siax"

 

It is meta not mainly because of its personal burst, but strongly because of the unique and strong party buff it can bring to the party (i.e. one wolf pack sharing through leader of the pack, frost spirit). Otherwise, pwr holosmith (which has a raw non-precasting 110k opener on skorv prepatch, for example) should also be meta.

 

In addition, pre-patch pwr soulbeast underperforms pwr weaver/DH/holosmith so sustained DPS wise one should not take slb over weaver/DH/holosmith, if not considering the buff it can bring.  This is particularly true in less organized pugs that phase longer.

 

If pwr soulbeast being meta is a mistake, then Anet should nerf the reasons that make it meta, which is obviously the capability of stance sharing, instead of heavily touching its personal dps, which is again already underperforming other listed classes (weaver/DH) prepatch.

 

If the nerf is focused on bringing down personal dps, then it would make more sense that the degree of nerf should be prioritized on the class based on the personal DPS ranking. If the nerf is focused on the elimination of speed clears, then nerfing stance sharing is the most effective way, when it comes to soulbeast. All the nerf attempts (i.e. Sic Em nerf, CD change of the one wolf pack) by this patch just failed to address these issues it created for a long time in the past.

 

For completeness, some pre-patch record logs are attached here from Discretize/SC members to support the opinions above. **

https://dps.report/0yPy-20210203-162202_skor

https://dps.report/XF28-20200929-184832_arriv

https://dps.report/q7ef-20210302-234653_arkk

 

In addition, a pre-patch pug video and the associated log by Ryan (with the standard  hb/alac/dps/bs comp) *

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVQwi0zfCdI

https://dps.report/txoQ-20210105-193707_arkk

 

* disclaimer: this is only to show the capability of DH in pug conditions, not meaning the soulbeast in this video was performing perfectly well, nor saying the dps gap between the soulbeast and DH should be at that much. But I reckon many ppl who play soulbeast at a good standard know how hard to hit the number achieved by the DH in this video, in daily pug condition.

 

 

2nd edit:

** A follow-up clarification: all the record logs above indicate much DPS of the DHs (about 12-18% as shown in the logs) is attributed to OWP stance sharing, which demonstrates nerfing stance sharing will be as effective as aforementioned.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Infusion.7149]

While I think One Wolf Pack should be reverted , your chrono claim is untrue because it relies on slow and thief runes cannot be fully relied upon if you use phantasms (it's really a ~36K build with drawbacks such as clones dying , the sword phantasm flanking half the time, and the delay on phantasms respawning). Ultimately I don't think staff mirage or condi deadeye will exist in their initial post-patch state very long but I can see condi scourge staying in its buffed state ~36K DPS vs stationary targets (running blood magic drops damage).

In instanced content, power soulbeast provides spotter and one wolf pack as well so it would be picked over another DPS class if it were merely the same damage. In a group setting the only thing reaper provides is boon rip as part of its normal skill rotation and the life force you mention is a major weakness when it is deprived due to lack of adds or high incoming damage.

 

Likewise claiming condi soulbeast has no sustain is also untrue because on Cairn it was meta-pre-patch specifically due to Predator's cunning.

 

Regardless, druid is still meta for 10 man content mainly due to spirits and might.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Xeon.5768]

9 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

While I think One Wolf Pack should be reverted , your chrono claim is untrue because it relies on slow and thief runes cannot be fully relied upon if you use phantasms (it's really a ~36K build with drawbacks such as clones dying , the sword phantasm flanking half the time, and the delay on phantasms respawning). Ultimately I don't think staff mirage or condi deadeye will exist in their initial post-patch state very long but I can see condi scourge staying in its buffed state ~36K DPS vs stationary targets (running blood magic drops damage).

In instanced content, power soulbeast provides spotter and one wolf pack as well so it would be picked over another DPS class if it were merely the same damage. In a group setting the only thing reaper provides is boon rip as part of its normal skill rotation and the life force you mention is a major weakness when it is deprived due to lack of adds or high incoming damage.

 

Likewise claiming condi soulbeast has no sustain is also untrue because on Cairn it was meta-pre-patch specifically due to Predator's cunning.

 

Regardless, druid is still meta for 10 man content mainly due to spirits and might.

I will reply to you point to point.

1. About chrono, if you check the SC boss pre-patch benchmark (it is class-specific boss benchmark, not only golem benchmark), you will see power chrono is either meta/good for almost all the bosses across w1-7, except a tiny few. For those tiny few, you can switch to condition mirage (even pre patch). For twin largos, condi chrono/mirage are specially strong, keeping a far distance in performance from any other classes. Secondly, I did not mention chrono is braindead to play, but rather it is also a class that requires knowledge of encounters to get good numbers. I only mentioned reaper/scourge because those are indeed the braindead builds to play.

 

2. "In instanced content, power soulbeast provides spotter and one wolf pack as well so it would be picked over another DPS class if it were merely the same damage."  Yes, the soulbeast can ultimately become a spotter and stance sharing bot, or even a spirits sharing bot, when needed. But why would you put it in that position, given it shouldve done far more than that. On the contrary, the bane signet sharing of guardian classes do not lose much personal dps, while still providing party wide pwr buff. If you are talking about banner slave (34k bench post-patch) compared to full dps berserker (37.7k bench post-patch), this is also more superior to pwr soulbeast, given how viable warrior can be in all the raid wings.

 

3. As already explained, talking about a class that is literally entering shroud pressing skill 4 once and skill 1 seven or eight times, plus a few more presses from 1-5 buttons in order, I won't call it a proper rotation. And the fun fact is, even if you do this, without weapon swap, you will not hit a very low number, compared to its benchmark. This is also why I call it a beginner class. Another thing is if you happen to be in a 10-man squad or 5-man party that provides bad boons, you can also use reaper due to its ability to self-sustaining 20-25 might + quickness + crit chance. Again, a class should be balanced between dps and sustain. There is no point creating a class doing big deeps (meaning taking dps gears, not concentration gears) while still keeping max amount of boons and insane survivability.

 

4. You can do some statistics how many bosses are stationary for how long in percentage during an encounter, in an instanced environment (like raids and fractals), and I think you will reach a conclusion (e.g. CM100 dark AI, 3 condi scourge + hb+ren, leading to 38-40K+ dps per scourge, and yes it is still not optimal due to the presence of hb). For open world champ/leg mobs, it is beyond the scope of my discussion, because it is not considered as competitive pve content. You can simply solo many of them (only except a few leg mobs that have self-heal abilities or require multiple players to do mechanics) using plaguedoctor stats gears on multiple condi class builds.

 

5. Condition soulbeast on Cairn is an outlier situation and it is one of the only situations making it being meta in that scenario. I am not sure what you wanna elaborate here by showing this single example. And I can also tell you that even in this case, condition soulbeast can only top dps with that specific mega slb comp. If you are in a pug or any other comps where you get condi ren, condi fb, or just a lot of other condi classes, condi slb's dps will not be top among them, even in Cairn.

 

6. condi DE will be fixed. Condi mirage might be tuned down a bit, but by how much Idk because it is clear that dev wants to encourage the play of mirage than chrono, which I think is the right direction. Again, I was calling them to improve condi slb to the same benchmark as other general condi classes (e.g. cfb virtue 39.7k postpatch, condi ren 41k postpatch). I dont think there is anything wrong with it.

 

7. Druid is still meta, but I am not talking about druid at all in my statement. I am only focusing on DPS builds. However, with the presence of 10 man alac 25 might mirage, i dont think druid will be longlasting if they dont make changes to mirage. You may talk about spirits, but those can be shared by slb, as you already pointed out, leading to a higher dps comp. For heal, there are so many other builds that can provide great heal, barrier, blocks and stab, to ensure you have survivability without druid, while still doing a lot of dmg.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Infusion.7149]

21 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

I will reply to you point to point.

1. About chrono, if you check the SC boss pre-patch benchmark (it is class-specific boss benchmark, not only golem benchmark), you will see power chrono is either meta/good for almost all the bosses across w1-7, except a tiny few. For those tiny few, you can switch to condition mirage (even pre patch). For twin largos, condi chrono/mirage are specially strong, keeping a far distance in performance from any other classes. Secondly, I did not mention chrono is braindead to play, but rather it is also a class that requires knowledge of encounters to get good numbers. I only mentioned reaper/scourge because those are indeed the braindead builds to play.

 

2. "In instanced content, power soulbeast provides spotter and one wolf pack as well so it would be picked over another DPS class if it were merely the same damage."  Yes, the soulbeast can ultimately become a spotter and stance sharing bot, or even a spirits sharing bot, when needed. But why would you put it in that position, given it shouldve done far more than that. On the contrary, the bane signet sharing of guardian classes do not lose much personal dps, while still providing party wide pwr buff. If you are talking about banner slave (34k bench post-patch) compared to full dps berserker (37.7k bench post-patch), this is also more superior to pwr soulbeast, given how viable warrior can be in all the raid wings.

 

3. As already explained, talking about a class that is literally entering shroud pressing skill 4 once and skill 1 seven or eight times, plus a few more presses from 1-5 buttons in order, I won't call it a proper rotation. And the fun fact is, even if you do this, without weapon swap, you will not hit a very low number, compared to its benchmark. This is also why I call it a beginner class. Another thing is if you happen to be in a 10-man squad or 5-man party that provides bad boons, you can also use reaper due to its ability to self-sustaining 20-25 might + quickness + crit chance. Again, a class should be balanced between dps and sustain. There is no point creating a class doing big deeps (meaning taking dps gears, not concentration gears) while still keeping max amount of boons and insane survivability.

 

4. You can do some statistics how many bosses are stationary for how long in percentage during an encounter, in an instanced environment (like raids and fractals), and I think you will reach a conclusion (e.g. CM100 dark AI, 3 condi scourge + hb+ren, leading to 38-40K+ dps per scourge, and yes it is still not optimal due to the presence of hb). For open world champ/leg mobs, it is beyond the scope of my discussion, because it is not considered as competitive pve content. You can simply solo many of them (only except a few leg mobs that have self-heal abilities or require multiple players to do mechanics) using plaguedoctor stats gears on multiple condi class builds.

 

4. Condition soulbeast on Cairn is an outlier situation and it is one of the only situations making it being meta in that scenario. I am not sure what you wanna elaborate here by showing this single example. And I can also tell you that even in this case, condition soulbeast can only top dps with that specific mega slb comp. If you are in a pug or any other comps where you get condi ren, condi fb, or just a lot of other condi classes, condi slb's dps will not be top among them, even in Cairn.

 

5. condi DE will be fixed. Condi mirage might be tuned down a bit, but by how much Idk because it is clear that dev wants to encourage the play of mirage than chrono, which I think is the right direction. Again, I was calling them to improve condi slb to the same benchmark as other classes. I dont think there is anything wrong with it.

 

6. Druid is still meta, but I am not talking about druid at all in my statement. I am only focusing on DPS builds. However, with the presence of 10 man alac 25 might mirage, i dont think druid will be longlasting if they dont make changes to mirage. You may talk about spirits, but those can be shared by slb, as you already pointed out, leading to a higher dps comp. For heal, there are so many other builds that can provide great heal, barrier, blocks and stab, to ensure you have survivability without druid, while still doing a lot of dmg.

1. They're stacking chronos. That's not something that is a normal comp by any imagination ; both Time Warp and Danger Time were nerfed. Back when chrono + druid was meta even in 5 man content, people had trouble finding chronos and that hasn't changed. You forgot SH by the way, that's where confusion is strong besides TL , staff mirage pulls high numbers there.
2. What you want is not what Arenanet wants clearly. Ironic that you mention bane signet guardians as they do 33-35K DPS prepatch unless you mean when you can rely on aegis not being stripped and abusing the 20% damage bonus from Unscathed Contender in Virtues. Given that spotter is mentioned on every raid guide and every raid site , you cannot compare it as a buff with Bane Signet which doesn't even have 100% uptime . On top of that Bane Signet sharing means you lose the crit chance from retalation/ resolution after patch so it would not be run in 10 man content , only in fractals where you get precision from potions. P.S. Warrior was nerfed too.
3. What you feel is a "beginner class" is meaningless. By that logic condi weaver should be the highest DPS. It still doesn't change the situation where reaper damage drops significantly when life force deprived.
4. Post patch I've seen condi scourge, staff mirage, and condi renegade all pull similar numbers in real scenarios. The player matters more than the build oftentimes. Using plaguedoctor stats means you have zero power or expertise, which means the damage is far lower ; that's a similar rationale of blood magic dropping damage on viper stats (i.e. plaguedoctor scourge was ~22K prepatch , blood magic viper condi was ~26K).
4b. (since you numbered wrong?) By that rationale just because it is not top DPS it is "nerfed to the ground" when it is not even nerfed except for One Wolf Pack? Chrono was nerfed far harder if you look at the patchnotes. Considering I've been doing a great deal of edits on the wiki for most of the balance patches for the past couple years I would know.
5. If a group is not using a druid and decides to run a soulbeast instead, that is still a ranger (i.e. still that class). Your title says "this class that has been nerfed to the ground" which is utterly sensationalized , almost as bad as "delete ele and people won't notice".


 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Xeon.5768]

17 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

1. They're stacking chronos. That's not something that is a normal comp by any imagination. Back when chrono + druid was meta even in 5 man content, people had trouble finding chronos and that hasn't changed. You forgot SH by the way, that's where confusion is strong besides TL , staff mirage pulls high numbers there.
2. What you want is not what Arenanet wants clearly. Ironic that you mention bane signet guardians as they do 33-35K DPS prepatch unless you mean when you can rely on aegis not being stripped and abusing the 20% damage bonus from Unscathed Contender in Virtues.
3. What you feel is a "beginner class" is meaningless. By that logic condi weaver should be the highest DPS.
4. Post patch I've seen condi scourge, staff mirage, and condi renegade all pull similar numbers in real scenarios. The player matters more than the build oftentimes. Using plaguedoctor stats means you have zero power or expertise, which means the damage is far lower ; that's a similar rationale of blood magic dropping damage on viper stats.
4b. (since you numbered wrong?) By that rationale just because it is not top DPS it is "nerfed to the ground" when it is not even nerfed except for One Wolf Pack? Chrono was nerfed far harder if you look at the patchnotes. Considering I've been doing a great deal of edits on the wiki for most of the balance patches for the past couple years I would know.
5. If a group is not using a druid and decides to run a soulbeast instead, that is still a ranger (i.e. still that class). Your title says "this class that has been nerfed to the ground" which is utterly sensationalized , almost as bad as "delete ele and people won't notice".


 

1. Stacking chronos is optimal, but 2-3 chronos are still on a good level in pugs. I didn't forget SH, given that how strong mirage can be. I already said you can play pwr chrono for most bosses and switch to condi for a tiny few. My point here is you can play this single class, without swapping toons for all the raid encounters, and ensure yourself not to be k1cked due to low dps.

 

2. You are talking about virtue guardian, and yes it is ez to lose aegis in many encounters, and this is why DH rediance or cfb is more viable than core guardian. I am talking about the bane signet sharing vesus slb sharing LoTP while losing 10% dps. I didn't touch the difficulty level of maintaining aegis because i know it is hard to maintain. DH can top dps in almost all the bosses in CM98 and 99, in high end groups, due to its high consistent dmg. Again, this is off topic so I dont want to waste time here. My point is to pin point to sacrifice from signet sharing vs stance sharing.

 

3. I did not say beginner class is meaningless, but it is a way to attract players to try these game modes. Yes, I call the class should be rewarding according to its diffulty level, because I feel thats the way to encourage ppl to try more builds. If a simple build is OP, a lot of ppl will select that easiest one. Because why not? Btw, condi engi should be top in that scenario from my opinion.

 

4. Plaguedoctor is only used to solo counter open world champ/leg mobs. Solo means you will need some survivability a lot of times. I already made it clear.

 

4b. I still hold an view that it is nerf to the "ground", like the real ground if you are looking at the benchmark. Both pwr slb/condi slb are bottom dps benchmark now. I already listed them in the original post, so I will not do again for simplicity. You can find far more on youtube from the recent week. The thing that makes this high difference is slb is nerf-ed while others are buffed. 

 

5. The popular builds of this class has been destroyed by this patch in pve contents. One may add "pve" to the title but thats all (just added btw).

Edited May 18, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Infusion.7149]

20 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

1. Stacking chronos is optimal, but 2-3 chronos are still on a good level in pugs. I didn't forget SH, given that how strong mirage can be. I already said you can play pwr chrono for most bosses and switch to condi for a tiny few. My point here is you can play this single class, without swapping toons for all the raid encounters, and ensure yourself not to be k1cked due to low dps.

 

2. You are talking about virtue guardian, and yes it is ez to lose aegis in many encounters, and this is why DH rediance or cfb is more viable than core guardian. I am talking about the bane signet sharing vesus slb sharing LoTP while losing 10% dps. I didn't touch the difficulty level of maintaining aegis because i know it is hard to maintain. DH can top dps in almost all the bosses in CM98 and 99, in high end groups, due to its high consistent dmg. Again, this is off topic so I dont want to waste time here. My point is to pin point to sacrifice from signet sharing vs stance sharing.

 

3. I did not say beginner class is meaningless, but it is a way to attract players to try these game modes. Yes, I call the class should be rewarding according to its diffulty level, because I feel thats the way to encourage ppl to try more builds. If a simple build is OP, a lot of ppl will select that easiest one. Because why not? Btw, condi engi should be top in that scenario from my opinion.

 

4. Plaguedoctor is only used to solo counter open world champ/leg mobs. Solo means you will need some survivability a lot of times. I already made it clear.

 

4b. I still hold an view that it is nerf to the "ground", like the real ground if you are looking at the benchmark. Both pwr slb/condi slb are bottom dps benchmark now. I already listed them in the original post, so I will not do again for simplicity. You can find far more on youtube from the recent week. The thing that makes this high difference is slb is nerf-ed while others are buffed. 

 

5. The popular builds of this class has been destroyed by this patch in pve contents. One may add "pve" to the title but thats all (just added btw).

1. Ironic. Play druid. Or is responsibility besides DPS too complicated despite asking for so-called more complicated things to be more rewarding?
2. Bane signet sharing requires giving up crit chance to the tune of 25%. If you have an issue with it in fractals that's more a problem of pre-casting at mistlock.
3. How many years have people in necro forum been complaining they "can't raid" in power-oriented encounters? It's a meme at this point. Ranger isn't truly at the bottom and you make such a sensationalized thread. Plus people on discetize routinely ridicule PUG rangers for not being able to use OWP combos "it's literally two buttons" , so please don't think ranger is a difficult class to play and before patch had one of the highest autoattacks while merged (i.e. nearly half the damage).
4. So your issue is with torment. There's no guarantee torment scaling won't be changed , there's a patch incoming May 25.
4b. It hasn't even been more than a week, they're likely going to gather more data before touching anything. It costs them resources and developer time to adjust things and they already preemptively hit FB+renegade.
5. ? It hasn't been destroyed just nerfed.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Xeon.5768]

1. Please clarify what your opinion in this aspect. I was talking about dps-rewarding while I didn't deny the fact other support roles may be doing harder jobs which requires more knowledge of the encounters sometimes. Like I simply think scourge is so broken to the point where you can use a mega scourge comp to skip many mechanics both in raids and fractals. Why would one design these mechanics if they can be skipped with playing a specific class? I dont think this is something ppl want to see.

 

2. Regarding bane signet sharing, it is not used everywhere. Ofc one has to be smart to assess its pros and cons w.r.t the specific enounters, when using it, with special attention on how significant it can scale up the dps curve, like with the presence of exposed state or unnatural signet and the like . In fractals, it is never a problem because bane signet should always be used in high end groups. Crit chance is not a problem with high AR. (one simple example by SC member  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlDEEnhNMV0&t=1s)

 

3. While reaper is suboptimal on bosses, but scourge is always good in pugs. In fact, a lot of groups nowadays still accept reaper, because a lot of commander look at cleave dps, not on-target dps. Playing reaper means you cleave a lot of adds with the nature of having large cleave radius skills, leading to high dps when there are a lot of adds, like sloths and xera. In this regard, the statement "cant raid" maybe true to some extent, but not rly the case in pug conditions. Back to my original post, I did not say they should nerf necro, but I was calling they improve slb. Please dont get confused.

 

4. Torment is part of the issue I indicated. Meanwhile, again back to my original post, pwr slb is the main thing that I call received the significant nerf, compared to other pwr classes. For example, Adina phase 1, slb can now be beaten by guardians due to the sic-em nerf. The low sustained dps also makes it no way to win other classes in a encounters with longer phase. One wolf pack change may not affect as much in fractals, especially in pugs, because the phase time can usually have OWP back in the 2nd or at least the 3rd phase. The problem here is, pre patch, slb can shine in short encounters due to its good burst, but in longer fight, it still loses to cfb or DH. Ironically, with the May 11th patch, with the nerf received, slb cannot shine both in short encounters and long encounters. In short encounters it can even sometimes lose to a full zerk renegade or pwr holosmith which has far better sustained dps. In my original post, I was calling them to improve its sustained dps to other classes' level. I dont think there is any issue with my claim.

 

5. It is destroyed because now in fractals, homogenous comp cfb in CM98+99 can create 120k burning tick in my test. While in CM100, condi scourge/mirage is the new way, given that not too long ago DT has released the CRGB comp being meta for CM100. In raids, it is in a very bad situation now. Looking at the difference brought by this patch, it is correct to say it is destroyed, because its benchmark is already lower than other classes before the patch. Lastly, I am not saying slb should always be meta, again I am just calling them to improve its dps to the same level as others in golem benchmark. If you have a reason why they should not do this, please clarify it.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

1. Please clarify what your opinion in this aspect. I was talking about dps-rewarding while I didn't deny the fact other support roles may be doing harder jobs which requires more knowledge of the encounters sometimes. Like I simply think scourge is so broken to the point where you can use a mega scourge comp to skip many mechanics both in raids and fractals. Why would one design these mechanics if they can be skipped with playing a specific class? I dont think this is something ppl want to see.

 

2. Regarding bane signet sharing, it is not used everywhere. Ofc one has to be smart to assess its pros and cons w.r.t the specific enounters, when using it, with special attention on how significant it can scale up the dps curve, like with the presence of exposed state or unnatural signet and the like . In fractals, it is never a problem because bane signet should always be used in high end groups. Crit chance is not a problem with high AR. (one simple example by SC member  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlDEEnhNMV0&t=1s)

 

3. While reaper is suboptimal on bosses, but scourge is always good in pugs. In fact, a lot of groups nowadays still accept reaper, because a lot of commander look at cleave dps, not on-target dps. Playing reaper means you cleave a lot of adds with the nature of having large cleave radius skills, leading to high dps when there are a lot of adds, like sloths and xera. In this regard, the statement "cant raid" maybe true to some extent, but not rly the case in pug conditions. Back to my original post, I did not say they should nerf necro, but I was calling they improve slb. Please dont get confused.

 

4. Torment is part of the issue I indicated. Meanwhile, again back to my original post, pwr slb is the main thing that I call received the significant nerf, compared to other pwr classes. For example, Adina phase 1, slb can now be beaten by guardians due to the sic-em nerf. The low sustained dps also makes it no way to win other classes in a encounters with longer phase. One wolf pack change may not affect as much in fractals, especially in pugs, because the phase time can usually have OWP back in the 2nd or at least the 3rd phase. The problem here is, pre patch, slb can shine in short encounters due to its good burst, but in longer fight, it still loses to cfb or DH. Ironically, with the May 11th patch, with the nerf received, slb cannot shine both in short encounters and long encounters. In short encounters it can even sometimes lose to a full zerk renegade or pwr holosmith which has far better sustained dps. In my original post, I was calling them to improve its sustained dps to other classes' level. I dont think there is any issue with my claim.

 

5. It is destroyed because now in fractals, homogenous comp cfb in CM98+99 can create 120k burning tick in my test. While in CM100, condi scourge/mirage is the new way, given that not too long ago DT has released the CRGB comp being meta for CM100. In raids, it is in a very bad situation now. Looking at the difference brought by this patch, it is correct to say it is destroyed, because its benchmark is already lower than other classes before the patch. Lastly, I am not saying slb should always be meta, again I am just calling them to improve its dps to the same level as others in golem benchmark. If you have a reason why they should not do this, please clarify it.

1. You said you wanted to play a class relevant on every boss, you already can (it's ranger , ironic isn't it).

2. Balancing based off of a grinded speedclear comp in niche content with little room for error is a pointless exercise. The average player doesn't care if they take 3 minutes more if they don't wipe , see HB requests in T4s. I regularly outpdps players on alacrity renegade to the point that HB players complain about DPS players (sometimes 2-3x), so yeah I am speaking from experience.

3. Seems you have an issue with grouping, maybe get a static instead if the DPS is such a problem for you. Why should they improve soulbeast? Because you say so? That's terrible logic and Furious Strength was already buffed slightly. More likely that torment is rebalanced : it had already been done preemptively before the patch actually hit.

4. Again you are being dramatic about "low DPS". Again, why would they waste resources just because you complained, they hadn't when many necro players complained for years (victim syndrome when nobody forces anyone to play only one class , that's why you have multiple character slots on account creation). Get with the program and play another class if you think it is stronger unless you are one of those one class players (ugh) which is why people say looking for multi-class players. Unlike for T4 fractals (you can get exotic armor for T3), it's very easy to get exotics for raiding. Full berserker renegade isn't even a common thing ; they already did slightly buff soulbeast sustained damage preemptively in the patch with the change to Furious Strength.

5. CFB was nerfed , ashes only ticks once per second , eternal armory doesn't stack burning on sword of justice, and Chapter 2 only hits one stack of burning on its own. Once more why do you think they should "improve the DPS to the same as others in the golem benchmark" when it has profession specific buffs? If you're balancing off golem benchmarks (with every common boon, which is what you were complaining about with respect to reaper) CFB isn't overpowering. Buffing everything just leads to powercreep which is why mirage + deadeye are so busted in this patch. We even see this with scrapper, where it is completely busted in WvW because the quickness wasn't split yet due to lack of might and fury output it won't replace CQB in PVE.

[Xeon.5768]

1. I never focused on talking about support classes. I was talking about dps in my entire discussion. I know it has the capability, vut why do you force ranger players to play support class across all the wing?

 

2. "Balancing based off of a grinded speedclear comp in niche content with little room for error is a pointless exercise." You better talk this to Anet becasue I agree with your statement, but the action they took is like looking at their elitist players to decide nerfing Sic Em while not knowing the fact even before patch, pwr slb already lost to cfb in many pug situations (e.g. 90k cfb opener on skrov phase 1, with mediocre CC speed). You may argue the 1sec ICD of ashes of the just after the patch is the nerf, but the 100% exposed state bonus is all you need to output even more than pre-patch (120k burning tick as I already mentioned).

 

3. Why not? Can you provide a solid evidence of saying no? Logs or benchmarks on golems, or specific bosses? They are all available across the youtube. I don't have problems in grouping, in fact I have all the CM titles across the raids and fractals. I play all the so-defined meta classes and I just call them to reach some balance in dps. Ofc if they didnt do this to ranger eventually, I can just hop on another meta class. Do you rly think I only play ranger and I am gonna delete my account after the patch lmao? I am just calling for balance dps wise because I really think slb is a beautiful class to have, especially pwr slb given the exciting numbers it can pull out pre patch.

 

4. DPS is all I raised in the discussion. Why would you prevent a player from expressing its thoughts? I am not a decision maker but I think this is the way to express opinions, similar to ppl complaining in necro forum. Full zerk ren is just a simple example to showcase how significant the nerf is that slb received. You are talking about "3%" and calling it a buff... Well I rly think you should look at the benchmark first before even arguing with me.

 

5. with the change of ICD of AotJ, cFB is nerf-ed somehow in burst potential, BUT the exposed bonus simply brings it back to the top. In raids, cFB virtue outputs close to 40k sustained golem dps, as I tested in gorse and Sab for example, it is much stronger than before with the page traits. Again regarding slb, why would you think they should keep it as is? Now this class simply doesnt meet the right standard as a dps class. And yes you can play druid as you mentioned, but it is not everyone's desire.

 

All in all, I think you just missed my main points of raising the discussion, by calling it up a lot of irrelevant information. I suggest you look at the benchmark, or find a group to try on this class on your clears and compare it to other classes, before replying it to me saying it doesnt deserve a balance. I will not reply further because it is a waste of time to me to argue with a person who has difficulty in interpretation and is unwilling to look at the actual benchmarks.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, Xeon.5768 said:

Ofc if they didnt do this to ranger eventually, I can just hop on another meta class.

Then do so and don't expect massive buffs to soulbeast.

edit: P.S. Hybrid soulbeast 36-37K so the entire premise of this thread is basically moot.

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Xeon.5768]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Then do so and don't expect massive buffs to soulbeast.

edit: P.S. Hybrid soulbeast 36-37K so the entire premise of this thread is basically moot.

 

 

It is a good move that you actually start looking at benchmarks. However, again, you basically need to improve your understanding of the class performance and the patch notes.

 

Just a quick glance for hybrid soulbeast (which is actually not in my main discussion, although it has also been nerfed),

 

Pre patch hybrid soulbeast, done by lederr who actually happened to provide rotation guide at that time for my guildies,

 

 

 

post patch - nerf-ed soulbeast - 37k as you indicated

 

Lets look at other classes,

To name a few,

 

Pre-patch condi renegade, stolen from SC

 

 

 

Post-patch renegade

 

 

 

Pre-patch condi firebrand (the class that does not rely on torment but still got buffed) - stolen from SC

 

 

 

Post-patch firebrand - and this has not been pushed to the extreme as indicated by the author

 

 

 

I don't want to waste time listing the pre/post patch comparison for all the other classes like condition mirage or condition scourge. But again I don't wanna be arrogant by seeming to educate you again and again, but you just seriously need to dig into more in this before making the statement "so the entire premise of this thread is basically moot."

[Xeon.5768]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Then do so and don't expect massive buffs to soulbeast.

edit: P.S. Hybrid soulbeast 36-37K so the entire premise of this thread is basically moot.

 

In addition, according to our experience in raids and fractals, there is almost no encounters that this hybrid set can shine, except quite a few such as dhuum where you are running mega-hybrid soulbeast comp. For pwr-based encounters such as KC or VG, pwr classes are still better, for condi-based encounters such as Cairn or Matthias, pure condi is still better. You may say it is great in MO, well it is simply a dps golem.

 

In fractals, it is just bad, either in longer phase or shorter phase.

 

I don't really know the point of you bringing up a build that receives little attention in the communities and cannot be used in most fights to counter against my main points here. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Infusion.7149]

So your point is 1K DPS loss is worth making a thread? It is more likely outliers will be nerfed. That is historically the case.

[Xeon.5768]

11 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

So your point is 1K DPS loss is worth making a thread? It is more likely outliers will be nerfed. That is historically the case.

My point is what is your goal of bringing up a build that is not used in most situations? What do you want to demonstrate here? I don't want to be rude but better improve your understanding of all my statements. You didn't see the popularity of hybrid builds in many other classes simply due to the design of this instance contents meaning almost no hybrid builds can be top tier.

 

Ppl won't even care about it because it is nearly not being used anyway. Like if you are talking about Sic Em still staying at 40% bonus to pets, meaning core ranger is not nerf-ed in this case. But who cares about core ranger in raids?

 

Imagine creating a build that grants 1000% dmg bonus to players when players are not attacking the boss. What is the point of doing that? There has been almost no real situations. Your reaction is like oh that dmg bonus is insane and lets nerf its base attributes to bring it down....without looking at what is being used in the real encounters. 

[Infusion.7149]

22 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

My point is what is your goal of bringing up a build that is not used in most situations? What do you want to demonstrate here? I don't want to be rude but better improve your understanding of all my statements. You didn't see the popularity of hybrid builds in many other classes simply due to the design of this instance contents meaning almost no hybrid builds can be top tier.

 

Ppl won't even care about it because it is nearly not being used anyway. Like if you are talking about Sic Em still staying at 40% bonus to pets, meaning core ranger is not nerf-ed in this case. But who cares about core ranger in raids?

 

Imagine creating a build that grants 1000% dmg bonus to players when players are not attacking the boss. What is the point of doing that? There has been almost no real situations. Your reaction is like oh that dmg bonus is insane and lets nerf its base attributes to bring it down....without looking at what is being used in the real encounters. 

Does that warrant "please save this class that has been nerfed to the ground in pve contents"? I replied similarly to an ele thread so it isn't exclusive to your post at all, I just find sensationalism less than two weeks after the patch to be ridiculous.
 

A level headed person not operating on obviously biased reflex would evaluate the situation thus far as follows:

* You yourself listed 34K for power soulbeast and that is not the final conclusion by benchmarkers because we are only one week in. Might I remind you scepter non-virtues DH was 33K pre-patch and reaper , banner warrior of both types, + thief were ~34-35K. Unless you're playing with elitist players or doing some speedclear team it is therefore still usable , unless you are claiming reaper and thief are also unusable pre-patch. Kind of funny the scourge you call braindead was at 28K pre-patch as well.

* Only Sic Em had a major change mechanically for soulbeast in this patch, OWP was only a cooldown change. Restoring OWP is the logical solution because from a software development point of view they want to minimize skill splits between modes both for code reasons and user-friendliness especially with an impending Steam launch. It makes zero sense to split a skill 3 ways when it could function the same in all modes. In addition, restoring OWP would raise the DPS back a bit (considering they did adjust Furious Strength) without introducing new issues.

* Condi was underperforming per Arenanet so they buffed it.
** If torment scaling is changed,  the condi renegade , staff mirage (which will be nerfed surely), and scourges that you love to hate will be scaled back.
** They nerfed CFB but people made a new CFB build, so the logical conclusion is that the new build will also be toned down. The build you linked is pure condi and without quickness output so it is a DPS build.
** Condi deadeye wasn't a ridiculous build before this patch. Clearly it will be detuned as it is overperforming.
** Condi staff mirage will most likely be detuned if torment isn't. I'd be surprised if it wasn't.

If they start buffing things that weren't even changed in the patch you end up with powercreep everywhere, especially if it something passive that you get just from merging (still reeling at your suggestion of +400...) or having a readily available boon. Soulbeast merged bonuses were scaled back for a reason. The far better approach would be to scale back anything unintentionally buffed to an extreme amount because just as in an experiment (which is basically what this patch is, an experiment to see what would make people play condi over power) , you don't change the control you change the variables.

If you want to use the words "nerfed to the ground" that would be more applicable to boon thief (half targets and only useful in a handful of raids and nowhere else) or StM chrono (from what I've seen it has gone to 18K which is a massive decrease of ~40%).
 

[Xeon.5768]

see below

Edited May 19, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Xeon.5768]

Regarding the "+400" value I mentioned in the original post, this is a rough estimate. Considering base soulbeast has about 3100 pwr with food and util, with 25 might = 750 pwr, making it close to 3.9k pwr. The change from 150 to 400 will lift it up by 250 attributes, which converts to roughly 6% base dmg modifier. This is a rough estimation, but it can help restore its sustained dps from 34k hopefully back to 36.5k, making it close to other pwr classes such as pwr weaver or pwr holo which have roughly 37k benchmark postpatch

[Xeon.5768]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Does that warrant "please save this class that has been nerfed to the ground in pve contents"? I replied similarly to an ele thread so it isn't exclusive to your post at all, I just find sensationalism less than two weeks after the patch to be ridiculous.
 

A level headed person not operating on obviously biased reflex would evaluate the situation thus far as follows:

* You yourself listed 34K for power soulbeast and that is not the final conclusion by benchmarkers because we are only one week in. Might I remind you scepter non-virtues DH was 33K pre-patch and reaper , banner warrior of both types, + thief were ~34-35K. Unless you're playing with elitist players or doing some speedclear team it is therefore still usable , unless you are claiming reaper and thief are also unusable pre-patch. Kind of funny the scourge you call braindead was at 28K pre-patch as well.

* Only Sic Em had a major change mechanically for soulbeast in this patch, OWP was only a cooldown change. Restoring OWP is the logical solution because from a software development point of view they want to minimize skill splits between modes both for code reasons and user-friendliness especially with an impending Steam launch. It makes zero sense to split a skill 3 ways when it could function the same in all modes. In addition, restoring OWP would raise the DPS back a bit (considering they did adjust Furious Strength) without introducing new issues.

* Condi was underperforming per Arenanet so they buffed it.
** If torment scaling is changed,  the condi renegade , staff mirage (which will be nerfed surely), and scourges that you love to hate will be scaled back.
** They nerfed CFB but people made a new CFB build, so the logical conclusion is that the new build will also be toned down. The build you linked is pure condi and without quickness output so it is a DPS build.
** Condi deadeye wasn't a ridiculous build before this patch. Clearly it will be detuned as it is overperforming.
** Condi staff mirage will most likely be detuned if torment isn't. I'd be surprised if it wasn't.

If they start buffing things that weren't even changed in the patch you end up with powercreep everywhere, especially if it something passive that you get just from merging (still reeling at your suggestion of +400...) or having a readily available boon. Soulbeast merged bonuses were scaled back for a reason. The far better approach would be to scale back anything unintentionally buffed to an extreme amount because just as in an experiment (which is basically what this patch is, an experiment to see what would make people play condi over power) , you don't change the control you change the variables.

If you want to use the words "nerfed to the ground" that would be more applicable to boon thief (half targets and only useful in a handful of raids and nowhere else) or StM chrono (from what I've seen it has gone to 18K which is a massive decrease of ~40%).
 

It is good that you start listing these benchmarks, which promotes my interests in going back to the original dps discussion.

 

*The word "ground" describes the current state of the soulbeast dps. Similarly, reaper also had "ground" on-target dps pre-patch, which I never denied. I personally don't have many problems with it given that how self-sufficient it is with its boon generation. Like I used to solo t2 aetherblade farm with reaper and it simply achieves 25 might quick and 100% crit on its own.  DH' benchmark was about 34-35k at that time, but it was never considered as "ground" as reaper because it can actually top dps in many situations in fractals. In raids, there are multiple variants of its build including core guardian or virtue traitline for different encounters, so it is not considered as ground, unlike reaper. Full dps berserker has 37k dps, taking the banners somehow reduces its potential, so it makes sense to me. Theif was a bit sad I admit, except some uses in Q1 and QTP.  But again, I am calling them to improve soulbeast benchmark, to the same level as other classes. I don't care about what happened pre-patch now because we already had complaints at that time as well.

The statement of scourge and reaper is braindead is always true to me, in the pve contents. You can list anything here that you think significantly prevents you from hitting a good number when playing them. (btw I am attaching a new daily pug video here for scourge and reaper, braindead as always, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uIRw3WXTuQ).

There are some other videos on youtube that you can easily find online. In short, condition scourge can easily hit 40k+ dps in CM100 dark AI, at the current state, in a reasonably good group, even in the presence of hb, which has been recognized as the main issue to hinder the total dmg in pugs. Without hb, it should hit 45k+. Given how braindead this class is, I wouldn't call the change being a wise decision to encourage more builds or traitlines to be used as stated by Anet. Similarly, reaper, for example in the video, can have a 80k opener on mama now, which brings it close to a non-precasting pwr weaver/slb burst pre-patch, beating slb at the current patch. Given how tanky and braindead the rotation this class has, compared to slb, a class that has many high dmg skills (such as barrage and whirling defense) that root the players in place meaning easy interruption without aegis or stab, I don't think this is a right move. Again, you can list all of the factors that make you think necro is not braindead in these instanced pve contents.

 

 

* The change of Sic Em is so significant to a bursty class that can only output the same amount of dmg as other classes with a large contribution from that 10-sec frame. As the general trend of this patch is to tone down the burst potential of multiple classes in general, I did not call them to restore Sic Em, but instead to buff its sustained dps to the same level as other classes. Maybe restoring OWP is useful in some situations but it doesn't really solve the fundamental issues of the fractals. You can refer to what I discussed with AlexndrTheGreat.8310 who I think made a good summary in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/94879-ranger-patch-changes/page/4/

For speedclear less than 30 sec the CD change of OWP doesn't really matter that much. Also for pug situations such as arts, or siax, either its 60 sec or 80 sec original CD would make OWP ready for phase 3, with no problem. For skorv, it is not an issue at all. And yes restoring the CD of OWP can help restore some dps, in raids or longer fights, but it is minimal to bring it up to other classes' level.

 

 

* As you mentioned Anet might consider reworking or adjusting some of these modifiers or base functionalities of conditions, if I understand you correctly, you are basically assuming Anet will tone down a lot of these condi classes, and likely bring them close to condi soulbeast at the current state. If that is the case, then there will be no problem, as long as it is balanced dps wise. It is just the fact that right now there is no place soulbeast can actually be played as a good tier, not even top, regardless of its pwr or condi variants. The use of "nerfed to the ground" is w.r.t its original state pre-patch, where both its pwr and condi are meta for fractal contents (https://discretize.eu/). The nerf is indeed significant because it brings it from meta to bottom dps pick. 

 

Lastly, as far as it may sound like, I want to make it clear that I do not hate scourge because I truly think these beginner friendly classes should exist to allow players to try these game modes. Especially for raids, the content mechanics sometimes may be overwhelming for beginners, having a beginner class like that can make them focus more on learning mechanics, but less on their dps rotation (because in that case bad rotation can still achieve a reasonably good number). My point is, the classes that require more efforts to play well should be more rewarding when one masters it, which I know is not the case even pre-patch. Scourge benchmark can be very high, but should also be further complicated for its use to defend its position. Currently as I said, apart from the raid selling communities, scourge is broken in almost every single aspect, breaking the mechanics that players usually have to commit to during a normal gameplay.

 

Regarding your last paragraph, again any support-based classes are beyond the scope of my original discussion. I do feel there are significant changes to BT or stm, but one can make a separate thread for them if needed. I didn't mention them at all because they are not dps classes and therefore will not top dps anyway, either its pre or post patch. Off-topic.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Xeon.5768 said:

It is good that you start listing these benchmarks, which promotes my interests in going back to the original dps discussion.

 

*The word "ground" describes the current state of the soulbeast dps. Similarly, reaper also had "ground" on-target dps pre-patch, which I never denied. I personally don't have many problems with it given that how self-sufficient it is with its boon generation. Like I used to solo t2 aetherblade farm with reaper and it simply achieves 25 might quick and 100% crit on its own.  DH' benchmark was about 34-35k at that time, but it was never considered as "ground" as reaper because it can actually top dps in many situations in fractals. In raids, there are multiple variants of its build including core guardian or virtue traitline for different encounters, so it is not considered as ground, unlike reaper. Full dps berserker has 37k dps, taking the banners somehow reduces its potential, so it makes sense to me. Theif was a bit sad I admit, except some uses in Q1 and QTP.  But again, I am calling them to improve soulbeast benchmark, to the same level as other classes. I don't care about what happened pre-patch now because we already had complaints at that time as well.

The statement of scourge and reaper is braindead is always true to me, in the pve contents. You can list anything here that you think significantly prevents you from hitting a good number when playing them. (btw I am attaching a new daily pug video here for scourge and reaper, braindead as always, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uIRw3WXTuQ).

There are some other videos on youtube that you can easily find online. In short, condition scourge can easily hit 40k+ dps in CM100 dark AI, at the current state, in a reasonably good group, even in the presence of hb, which has been recognized as the main issue to hinder the total dmg in pugs. Without hb, it should hit 45k+. Given how braindead this class is, I wouldn't call the change being a wise decision to encourage more builds or traitlines to be used as stated by Anet. Similarly, reaper, for example in the video, can have a 80k opener on mama now, which brings it close to a non-precasting pwr weaver/slb burst pre-patch, beating slb at the current patch. Given how tanky and braindead the rotation this class has, compared to slb, a class that has many high dmg skills (such as barrage and whirling defense) that root the players in place meaning easy interruption without aegis or stab, I don't think this is a right move. Again, you can list all of the factors that make you think necro is not braindead in these instanced pve contents.

 

 

* The change of Sic Em is so significant to a bursty class that can only output the same amount of dmg as other classes with a large contribution from that 10-sec frame. As the general trend of this patch is to tone down the burst potential of multiple classes in general, I did not call them to restore Sic Em, but instead to buff its sustained dps to the same level as other classes. Maybe restoring OWP is useful in some situations but it doesn't really solve the fundamental issues of the fractals. You can refer to what I discussed with AlexndrTheGreat.8310 who I think made a good summary in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/94879-ranger-patch-changes/page/4/

For speedclear less than 30 sec the CD change of OWP doesn't really matter that much. Also for pug situations such as arts, or siax, either its 60 sec or 80 sec original CD would make OWP ready for phase 3, with no problem. For skorv, it is not an issue at all. And yes restoring the CD of OWP can help restore some dps, in raids or longer fights, but it is minimal to bring it up to other classes' level.

 

 

* As you mentioned Anet might consider reworking or adjusting some of these modifiers or base functionalities of conditions, if I understand you correctly, you are basically assuming Anet will tone down a lot of these condi classes, and likely bring them close to condi soulbeast at the current state. If that is the case, then there will be no problem, as long as it is balanced dps wise. It is just the fact that right now there is no place soulbeast can actually be played as a good tier, not even top, regardless of its pwr or condi variants. The use of "nerfed to the ground" is w.r.t its original state pre-patch, where both its pwr and condi are meta for fractal contents (https://discretize.eu/). The nerf is indeed significant because it brings it from meta to bottom dps pick. 

 

Lastly, as far as it may sound like, I want to make it clear that I do not hate scourge because I truly think these beginner friendly classes should exist to allow players to try these game modes. Especially for raids, the content mechanics sometimes may be overwhelming for beginners, having a beginner class like that can make them focus more on learning mechanics, but less on their dps rotation (because in that case bad rotation can still achieve a reasonably good number). My point is, the classes that require more efforts to play well should be more rewarding when one masters it, which I know is not the case even pre-patch. Scourge benchmark can be very high, but should also be further complicated for its use to defend its position. Currently as I said, apart from the raid selling communities, scourge is broken in almost every single aspect, breaking the mechanics that players usually have to commit to during a normal gameplay.

 

Regarding your last paragraph, again any support-based classes are beyond the scope of my original discussion. I do feel there are significant changes to BT or stm, but one can make a separate thread for them if needed. I didn't mention them at all because they are not dps classes and therefore will not top dps anyway, either its pre or post patch. Off-topic.

You'd have way more traction if the suggestion was for Furious Strength to affect both condi + power damage as that is a change that has been implemented for other classes. In addition, that would benefit condi variants more (P.S. Condi soulbeast's current "rough ungrinded bench" 35.9K rounds to 36K not 35K), which was the overarching goal in this patch to begin with. Similarly, a slight cooldown reduction for a skill such as double arc (which is uncommon in most non-CM fractals due to lack of cleave on dagger) or even Frost trap (which is semi-useless in WVW so it would not need to be split but it unlikely this sees changes since it's not condi oriented) would achieve similar improvements in sustained damage rather than adding more passive stats that were nerfed in the past (key point) in multiple modes. Calling a different class braindead (I've seen you write that about multiple classes by now and not just necros) is not going to win you any favor regarding balance.  AlexndrTheGreat.8310 wrote what I wrote actually, he said that OWP did not need to be nerfed if Sic Em was nerfed if you read his whole post... Arenanet's intentions were very explicit in nerfing burst exclusively.

Pre-patch a lazy build was condi shortbow soulbeast (~33K) by the way , so that "easy to play" stigma doesn't make sense.

I can't understand the ranting about berserker being 37K because unless soulbeast can lose spotter (because frost spirit is optional typically) for its highest power DPS output in the raid scenario (which is what it seems the thread is about) it is pointless to compare it to a full DPS berserker, really. Also berserker was nerfed as I mentioned before (they halved banners to 5 targets untraited and also the bonus from Doubled Standards) and most of what I've seen post-patch requires Greatsword to attain similar numbers (i.e. no CC from maces). You're having a double standard (no pun intended) just because it is soulbeast, which is unhealthy.

You're better off suggesting a rebalance to torment skills as it would be more effective in the overall scheme of things , if not a slight torment duration then adjustment to the stacked torment on some classes (see the preemptive changes on condi rev). It was changed in this patch so it's fair game to be rebalanced since it was never tweaked before. Condi scourge is ~40% torment post-patch and people in PVP are also complaining about it right now. If you've been playing since day 1 you would know that changes often are overlooked sometimes, but the meta always changes. People complained about chrono + druid and now we have firebrand + rev.

If this were a control system you could say Arenanet overshot the target (making condi DPS viable) and has yet to bring it to equilibrium (i.e. "balance").

The reason why I mentioned support classes is because that is what truly means to be nerfed to the ground and borderline unplayable by the general playerbase that actually cares about their performance : losing 40 or 50% effectiveness in one patch and not having anything to go to (druid is always a fallback for rangers for the time being).

----

@ Sinclair.3407

Discretize's site recommends condi soulbeast with stance sharing for condi. Since the only thing that was touched on soulbeast with respect to condi SB was OWP, reverting it is the best course of action. That accomplishes two things: merging it between modes and shoring up the condi variant without breaking anything. Even if it's a condi Soulbeast it would share bleed/poison on attacks , which has added value on renegades due to mult-hit on the legends and Citadel Bombardment. CFB is overperforming and I have long held the belief that it should be toned down further unless mantra of solace aegis is far less often , even in chrono heyday the distortion required utilities and between the signet heal and the distortion shatter it was far more than 12 base cooldown.
 

20 minutes ago, Sinclair.3407 said:

I think everyone agrees power chrono benchmark would see a dip in a real fight where slow uptime might be an issue or flanking might be hard from inconvenient positioning, etc..  Another drawback of power chrono lies in the fact it is barely used in fractals due to its slow ramp-up dmg output, and benefits the least from the exposed window. With the new patch change on the exposed state, in a power-based group, it may potentially get improved in its dmg contribution to the group because of the the reduced dmg buff on exposed state leading to a longer phase time, making it possible for it to execute its rotation longer.

 

On the other hand, soulbeast seems a niche choice now, because stance sharing will not be that useful for the new daily condition-based group such as 4 FB + renegade comp. Frost spirit is also not useful to the cFB. Sun spirit might be somehow beneficial but I doubt if that little party-wide buff would outperform another cFB. In a speed clear power-based comp, soulbeast should still be used as a source of stance sharing. Overall this patch so far is a big rip for soulbeast mainly owing to the class-defined burst potential being drastically truncated, making its original meta spot quickly diminish at both burst (short phase) and sustain (long phase).

Edited May 19, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Sinclair.3407]

20 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

While I think One Wolf Pack should be reverted , your chrono claim is untrue because it relies on slow and thief runes cannot be fully relied upon if you use phantasms (it's really a ~36K build with drawbacks such as clones dying , the sword phantasm flanking half the time, and the delay on phantasms respawning). Ultimately I don't think staff mirage or condi deadeye will exist in their initial post-patch state very long but I can see condi scourge staying in its buffed state ~36K DPS vs stationary targets (running blood magic drops damage).

In instanced content, power soulbeast provides spotter and one wolf pack as well so it would be picked over another DPS class if it were merely the same damage. In a group setting the only thing reaper provides is boon rip as part of its normal skill rotation and the life force you mention is a major weakness when it is deprived due to lack of adds or high incoming damage.

 

Likewise claiming condi soulbeast has no sustain is also untrue because on Cairn it was meta-pre-patch specifically due to Predator's cunning.

 

Regardless, druid is still meta for 10 man content mainly due to spirits and might.

I think everyone agrees power chrono benchmark would see a dip in a real fight where slow uptime might be an issue or flanking might be hard from inconvenient positioning, etc..  Another drawback of power chrono lies in the fact it is barely used in fractals due to its slow ramp-up dmg output, and benefits the least from the exposed window. With the new patch change on the exposed state, in a power-based group, it may potentially get improved in its dmg contribution to the group because of the the reduced dmg buff on exposed state leading to a longer phase time, making it possible for it to execute its rotation longer.

 

On the other hand, soulbeast seems a niche choice now, because stance sharing will not be that useful for the new daily condition-based group such as 4 FB + renegade comp. Frost spirit is also not useful to the cFB. Sun spirit might be somehow beneficial but I doubt if that little party-wide buff would outperform another cFB. In a speed clear power-based comp, soulbeast should still be used as a source of stance sharing. Overall this patch so far is a big rip for soulbeast mainly owing to the class-defined burst potential being drastically truncated, making its original meta spot quickly diminish at both burst (short phase) and sustain (long phase).

[Xeon.5768]

27 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You'd have way more traction if the suggestion was for Furious Strength to affect both condi + power damage as that is a change that has been implemented for other classes. In addition, that would benefit condi variants more, which was the overarching goal in this patch to begin with. Similarly, a slight cooldown reduction for a skill such as double arc (which is uncommon in most non-CM fractals due to lack of cleave on dagger) or even Frost trap (which is semi-useless in WVW so it would not need to be split but it unlikely this sees changes since it's not condi oriented) would achieve similar improvements in sustained damage rather than adding more passive stats that were nerfed in the past (key point) in multiple modes. Calling a different class braindead (I've seen you write that about multiple classes by now and not just necros) is not going to win you any favor regarding balance.  AlexndrTheGreat.8310 wrote what I wrote actually, he said that OWP did not need to be nerfed if Sic Em was nerfed if you read his whole post... Arenanet's intentions were very explicit in nerfing burst exclusively.

I can't understand the ranting about berserker being 37K because unless soulbeast can lose spotter (because frost spirit is optional typically) for its highest power DPS output in the raid scenario (which is what it seems the thread is about) it is pointless to compare it to a full DPS berserker, really. Also berserker was nerfed as I mentioned before (they halved banners to 5 targets untraited and also the bonus from Doubled Standards) and most of what I've seen post-patch requires Greatsword to attain similar numbers (i.e. no CC from maces). You're having a double standard (no pun intended) just because it is soulbeast, which is unhealthy.

You're better off suggesting a rebalance to torment skills as it would be more effective in the overall scheme of things , if not a slight torment duration then adjustment to the stacked torment on some classes (see the preemptive changes on condi rev). It was changed in this patch so it's fair game to be rebalanced since it was never tweaked before. Condi scourge is ~40% torment post-patch and people in PVP are also complaining about it right now. If you've been playing since day 1 you would know that changes often are overlooked sometimes, but the meta always changes. People complained about chrono + druid and now we have firebrand + rev.

If this were a control system you could say Arenanet overshot the target (making condi DPS viable) and has yet to bring it to equilibrium (i.e. "balance").

The reason why I mentioned support classes is because that is what truly means to be nerfed to the ground and borderline unplayable by the general playerbase that actually cares about their performance : losing 40 or 50% effectiveness in one patch and not having anything to go to (druid is always a fallback for rangers for the time being).

You may suggest improvement of furious strength, instead of base attributes, as long as it can lift up the sustained dps. I call the classes braindead based on my own experience with these classes in its rotation during real encounters. Ofc if we are talking about golem or MO, most classes will be braindead to me. So far the braindead class as far as I figured out in real encounters is power reaper, cFB, c scourge, and c renegade. Pwr berserker or condi slb have have one of the easiest rotation in the game, but they require flanking due to thief rune or trait, so I wouldn't call them braindead because the positioning in the actual encounter is dynamic (they are still relatively simple however). This is a general claim, but they may vary a bit in different fights. Another factor I consider as braindead is how significant one mistake would impact the overall dps curve. Pwr Soulbeast or pwr holosmith for example, if you happen to have one skill interrupted, or accidentally overheated if running ECSU trait, the dps will be drastically reduced, as counter-examples, most condi classes do not have this issue. Again, this is just my own experience and criteria used to assess whether it is braindead or not. I agree everyone may have different feelings and standards to assess a class difficulty level. You can defend necro is not braindead, by showing some solid examples.

 

You claim pwr slb should be compared to a banners berserker. By saying this, you basically categorize slb into a support-based class, or at least a partial support-based class group. I don't agree on this because it did not work in that way pre patch. Druid will be sharing spirits most of the time, and pwr slb should only share LoTP in some specifc fights such as KC, deimos, Adina, etc where the stance sharing can actually be scaled up significantly to the subgroups. This is not double standard, because berserker is far more viable than soulbeast across all the wings. It can switch between a full DPS build and an 85% dps build (banners), while having insane CC utilities when needed, or even might carry through FGJ, in a speed clear groups. And the spb dps build variant is particularly effective for bosses like Q1. One simple method to realize the versatility of warrior is to go to SC website and just simply count the number of bosses on which warrior being meta/good, with that of slb, you will reach a conclusion. And these are exactly the factors being considered to nerf the banners. Meanwhile, the dps aspect of warrior is not significantly nerf-ed, at least still acceptable compared to other pwr classes. On the other hand in fractal CMs, pre-patch banners berserker can outdps soulbeast in multiple bosses even pre patch (only not in skorv or arkk sometimes). Again you can find videos about this on youtube. I am not sure why you would feel I am biased on soulbeast, given that all these facts have been clearly examined over the years.

 

No response to your 3rd and 4th paragraph.

 

I agree with these support classes change being significant as I already mentioned in an earlier post. I wish website like SC can create some metrics to quantify the effectiveness of support classes. Clearly they only have benchmark numbers listed so it is hard to quantitatively assess by how much these support classes lose.

[Sinclair.3407]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You'd have way more traction if the suggestion was for Furious Strength to affect both condi + power damage as that is a change that has been implemented for other classes. In addition, that would benefit condi variants more (P.S. Condi soulbeast's current "rough ungrinded bench" 35.9K rounds to 36K not 35K), which was the overarching goal in this patch to begin with. Similarly, a slight cooldown reduction for a skill such as double arc (which is uncommon in most non-CM fractals due to lack of cleave on dagger) or even Frost trap (which is semi-useless in WVW so it would not need to be split but it unlikely this sees changes since it's not condi oriented) would achieve similar improvements in sustained damage rather than adding more passive stats that were nerfed in the past (key point) in multiple modes. Calling a different class braindead (I've seen you write that about multiple classes by now and not just necros) is not going to win you any favor regarding balance.  AlexndrTheGreat.8310 wrote what I wrote actually, he said that OWP did not need to be nerfed if Sic Em was nerfed if you read his whole post... Arenanet's intentions were very explicit in nerfing burst exclusively.

Pre-patch a lazy build was condi shortbow soulbeast (~33K) by the way , so that "easy to play" stigma doesn't make sense.

I can't understand the ranting about berserker being 37K because unless soulbeast can lose spotter (because frost spirit is optional typically) for its highest power DPS output in the raid scenario (which is what it seems the thread is about) it is pointless to compare it to a full DPS berserker, really. Also berserker was nerfed as I mentioned before (they halved banners to 5 targets untraited and also the bonus from Doubled Standards) and most of what I've seen post-patch requires Greatsword to attain similar numbers (i.e. no CC from maces). You're having a double standard (no pun intended) just because it is soulbeast, which is unhealthy.

You're better off suggesting a rebalance to torment skills as it would be more effective in the overall scheme of things , if not a slight torment duration then adjustment to the stacked torment on some classes (see the preemptive changes on condi rev). It was changed in this patch so it's fair game to be rebalanced since it was never tweaked before. Condi scourge is ~40% torment post-patch and people in PVP are also complaining about it right now. If you've been playing since day 1 you would know that changes often are overlooked sometimes, but the meta always changes. People complained about chrono + druid and now we have firebrand + rev.

If this were a control system you could say Arenanet overshot the target (making condi DPS viable) and has yet to bring it to equilibrium (i.e. "balance").

The reason why I mentioned support classes is because that is what truly means to be nerfed to the ground and borderline unplayable by the general playerbase that actually cares about their performance : losing 40 or 50% effectiveness in one patch and not having anything to go to (druid is always a fallback for rangers for the time being).

----

@ Sinclair.3407

Discretize's site recommends condi soulbeast with stance sharing for condi. Since the only thing that was touched on soulbeast with respect to condi SB was OWP, reverting it is the best course of action. That accomplishes two things: merging it between modes and shoring up the condi variant without breaking anything. Even if it's a condi Soulbeast it would share bleed/poison on attacks , which has added value on renegades due to mult-hit on the legends and Citadel Bombardment. CFB is overperforming and I have long held the belief that it should be toned down further unless mantra of solace aegis is far less often , even in chrono heyday the distortion required utilities and between the signet heal and the distortion shatter it was far more than 12 base cooldown.
 

Well yea would be happy to see the rework of OWP. I even hope they could add some inflicted condition on the follow-up strikes by OWP like "sharpened edges" trait causing bleeding on crit hits. I agree the benefits of OWP is obvious in CM100, but in CM98 and 99 I will have to see after several follow-up balances (hopefully), because neither power nor condi slb is a promising choice now for CM98 99, compared to other classes. 

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, Xeon.5768 said:

You may suggest improvement of furious strength, instead of base attributes, as long as it can lift up the sustained dps. I call the classes braindead based on my own experience with these classes in its rotation during real encounters. Ofc if we are talking about golem or MO, most classes will be braindead to me. So far the braindead class as far as I figured out in real encounters is power reaper, cFB, c scourge, and c renegade. Pwr berserker or condi slb have have one of the easiest rotation in the game, but they require flanking due to thief rune or trait, so I wouldn't call them braindead because the positioning in the actual encounter is dynamic (they are still relatively simple however). This is a general claim, but they may vary a bit  in different fights. Another factor I consider as braindead is how significant one mistake would impact the overall dps curve. Pwr Soulbeast or pwr holosmith for example, if you happen to have one skill interrupted, or accidentally overheated if running ECSU trait, the dps will be drastically reduced, as counter-examples, most condi classes do not have this issue. Again, this is just my own experience and criteria used to assess whether it is braindead or not. I agree everyone may have different feelings and standards to assess a class difficulty level. You can defend necro is not braindead, by showing some solid examples.

 

You claim pwr slb should be compared to a banners berserker. By saying this, you basically categorize slb into a support-based class, or at least a partial support-based class group. I don't agree on this because it did not work in that way pre patch. Druid will be sharing spirits most of the time, and pwr slb should only share LoTP in some specifc fights such as KC, deimos, Adina, etc where the stance sharing can actually be scaled up significantly to the subgroups. This is not double standard, because berserker is far more viable than soulbeast across all the wings. It can switch between a full DPS build and an 85% dps build (banners), while having insane CC utilities when needed, or even might carry through FGJ, in a speed clear groups. And the spb dps build variant is particularly effective for bosses like Q1. One simple method to realize the versatility of warrior is to go to SC website and just simply count the number of bosses on which warrior being meta/good, with that of slb, you will reach a conclusion. And these are exactly the factors being considered to nerf the banners. Meanwhile, the dps aspect of warrior is not significantly nerf-ed, at least still acceptable compared to other pwr classes. On the other hand in fractal CMs, pre-patch banners berserker can outdps soulbeast in multiple bosses even pre patch (only not in skorv or arkk sometimes). Again you can find videos about this on youtube. I am not sure why you would feel I am biased on soulbeast, given that all these facts have been clearly examined over the years.

 

No response to your 3rd and 4th paragraph.

 

I agree with these support classes change being significant as I already mentioned in an earlier post. I wish website like SC can create some metrics to quantify the effectiveness of support classes. Clearly they only have benchmark numbers listed so it is hard to quantitatively assess by how much these support classes lose.

That's exactly what I mean by bias.
Lucky noobs' difficulty rating:

• condi scourge = 2/5  (2/5 on snowcrows)
• boon herald = 2/5 (1/5 on snowcrows)
• power reaper = 2/5 , in actuality with incoming damage life force is a problem  (2/5 on snowcrows)
• pBS / power berserker = 2/5 (decapitate spam)  yet you consider it harder
• cQB /cFB / HB = 2/5 ... should be even lower with mantra changes  (2/5 on snowcrows)
• power DH = 2/5 (2/5 on snowcrows)
• power scrapper = 2/5
• condi soulbeast = 2/5 <--- 2/5 on snowcrows too
• power soulbeast = 2/5 <--- 3/5 on snowcrows
• power alac = 2/5 (3/5 on snowcrows)
• power daredevil = 3/5  (3/5 on snowcrows)
• condi renegade = 3/5 (3/5 on snowcrows)
• power holo = 3/5 (2/5 on snowcrows)
• condi chrono = 3/5 (2/5 on snowcrows)
• cBS = 4/5 (2/5 on snowcrows) ... snowcrows is biased against cBS difficulty although there is a warning about alacrity
• condi axe mirage = 4/5 (3/5 on snowcrows)
• condi RR = 4/5
• power chrono = 4/5 (2/5 on snowcrows) ... snowcrows is biased against chrono difficulty
• power weaver = 4/5 (3/5 on snowcrows with a warning label)
• power tempest = 4/5  (3/5 on snowcrows)
• condi holo = 5/5
• condi weaver = 5/5 (4/5 on snowcrows with a warning label)
• condi StM chrono = 5/5 (2/5 on snowcrows lol) ... snowcrows is biased against chrono difficulty
• StM chrono = 5/5 (2/5 with boon duration warning label)
   
• Considering I play every class (including holo and power soulbeast) I don't see the point in defending necros. I only point out obvious anomalies.
   

Even the site used by elementalist players to claim their class is weak shows a similar story.
For your specific mentioned bosses, none of which I have ever seen class discrimination against soulbeasts for:
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/kc
KC median soulbeast = 16.6K , max 27K , upper quartile 20.7K  ; with pre-patch median 22.7K and upper quartile = 25.8K

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/adina
Adina median soulbeast = 10.67K , upper quartile = 12.2K , max 13K ; pre-patch median = 12.2K , upper quartile =14K , max = 18.88K

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/dei
Deimos doesn't seem to favor soulbeast in their dataset even with burst into unnatural signet, the dataset probably includes hand kite so I don't think it counts DPS right (2K for a DPS seems too low for non handkite). Excluding supports it shows 14K median Pre-patch soulbeast ~8K median , 17K upper quartile including supports while excluding supports it yields ~16.5K median and 21.6K upper quartile.

Speaking of which, hand kite soulbeast is a non DPS role besides druid that is used in that fight which means 2 of 10 spots.

---
There's a difference between asking for straight stat boost just for being alive versus skill cooldown reductions. While Furious Strength affecting condi makes sense since the patch's goal was to promote condi and it was done for both rev and necro traits, making it a larger stat boost is ill-advised because it just requires fury. Soulbeast already stacks modifiers heavily which is why the merged bonus was repeatedly nerfed in the first place.

 

If current bench ungrinded is 35.9K , making the trait affect condi could push it to 39K (the log says 30K is condi). Because condi soulbeast doesn't provide spotter and only vulture stance + OWP that's a far more reasonable expectation.

If you mean power soulbeast , the same drawback as banner warrior should exist where utilities need to do or add damage , which is why I think a slight adjustment to frost trap would be the best way to set apart one running full DPS versus bringing spirits or other utilities. Giving it free stats isn't the way to go , especially when OWP has far more usefulness in power oriented scenarios.

-----------

@ Sinclair I meant that the stance sharing applies to Bear stance if you run into a condi instability , along with moa stance if you precast and the Vulture Stance you be running regardless.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Xeon.5768]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That's exactly what I mean by bias.
Lucky noobs' difficulty rating:

• condi scourge = 2/5  (2/5 on snowcrows)
• boon herald = 2/5 (1/5 on snowcrows)
• power reaper = 2/5 , in actuality with incoming damage life force is a problem  (2/5 on snowcrows)
• pBS / power berserker = 2/5 (decapitate spam)  yet you consider it harder
• cQB /cFB / HB = 2/5 ... should be even lower with mantra changes  (2/5 on snowcrows)
• power DH = 2/5 (2/5 on snowcrows)
• power scrapper = 2/5
• condi soulbeast = 2/5 <--- 2/5 on snowcrows too
• power soulbeast = 2/5 <--- 3/5 on snowcrows
• power alac = 2/5 (3/5 on snowcrows)
• power daredevil = 3/5  (3/5 on snowcrows)
• condi renegade = 3/5 (3/5 on snowcrows)
• power holo = 3/5 (2/5 on snowcrows)
• condi chrono = 3/5 (2/5 on snowcrows)
• cBS = 4/5 (2/5 on snowcrows) ... snowcrows is biased against cBS difficulty although there is a warning about alacrity
• condi axe mirage = 4/5 (3/5 on snowcrows)
• condi RR = 4/5
• power chrono = 4/5 (2/5 on snowcrows) ... snowcrows is biased against chrono difficulty
• power weaver = 4/5 (3/5 on snowcrows with a warning label)
• power tempest = 4/5  (3/5 on snowcrows)
• condi holo = 5/5
• condi weaver = 5/5 (4/5 on snowcrows with a warning label)
• condi StM chrono = 5/5 (2/5 on snowcrows lol) ... snowcrows is biased against chrono difficulty
• StM chrono = 5/5 (2/5 with boon duration warning label)
   
• Considering I play every class (including holo and power soulbeast) I don't see the point in defending necros. I only point out obvious anomalies.
   

Even the site used by elementalist players to claim their class is weak shows a similar story.
For your specific mentioned bosses, none of which I have ever seen class discrimination against soulbeasts for:
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/kc
KC median soulbeast = 16.6K , max 27K , upper quartile 20.7K  ; with pre-patch median 22.7K and upper quartile = 25.8K

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/adina
Adina median soulbeast = 10.67K , upper quartile = 12.2K , max 13K ; pre-patch median = 12.2K , upper quartile =14K , max = 18.88K

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/dei
Deimos doesn't seem to favor soulbeast in their dataset even with burst into unnatural signet, the dataset probably includes hand kite so I don't think it counts DPS right (2K for a DPS seems too low for non handkite). Excluding supports it shows 14K median Pre-patch soulbeast ~8K median , 17K upper quartile including supports while excluding supports it yields ~16.5K median and 21.6K upper quartile.

Speaking of which, hand kite soulbeast is a non DPS role besides druid that is used in that fight which means 2 of 10 spots.

---
There's a difference between asking for straight stat boost just for being alive versus skill cooldown reductions. While Furious Strength affecting condi makes sense since the patch's goal was to promote condi and it was done for both rev and necro traits, making it a larger stat boost is ill-advised because it just requires fury. Soulbeast already stacks modifiers heavily which is why the merged bonus was repeatedly nerfed in the first place.

 

If current bench ungrinded is 35.9K , making the trait affect condi could push it to 39K (the log says 30K is condi).

-----------

@ Sinclair I meant that the stance sharing applies to Bear stance if you run into a condi instability , along with moa stance if you precast and the Vulture Stance you be running regardless.

 

Following your logic, I am biased on multiple classes based on my own experience, not only on soulbeast. I already made it clear I have my own criteria to assess how diffcult to play a specific class in an acutal encounters. Luck noob is one of the youtuber I have been following and I respect the efforts it has made to come up with these ratings. And I believe s/he also has some criteria according to its gameplay. You have this feeling me being only biased on soulbeast because the whole discussion is about raising the concerns about the current position of soulbeast as a dps class. If I made a post one day when holosmith for example were nerfed to the ground like 33k dps (from 38k) or so, you would also reckon I am being biased on holosmith.

 

Since you are unwilling to defend necro, I have no further comments on this. I have my own experience with this class in raids and fractals. I have my own opinions which you think is biased, while you are not sharing your opinions or any poin-to-point comparion of this class to any other classes in its difficult level,  I mean the real encounter showcase in your own experience, instead of an overall rating from a player or website.

 

Class discrimination? lol.  Saying a class is braindead based on my own experience is class discrimination? Well if you mean something else, lemme know. It should be noted that whenever I command a squad, I never reject reaper or condi scourge as DPS class pre-patch, as long as they are not pulling significantly low number (like less than 5k or so). I am not that kind of commander who strategically look for pruple classes like in largos, while most condi classes are actually more than enough to pass the fight. Ironically, many condi chrono/mirage are quite bad, not even beating cfb or c slb sometimes...  That being said, I only tryhard in my static, where we try different comp when we want to grind, both in raids and fractals.

About the wingman website, I already stopped looking at this site long time ago, because it is pointless to me. Reasons as follow, the median or dispersion value is computed based on a wide varity of groups, including the groups that actually fail the fight. I specially emphasize on this because there is no point in comparing a benchmark that is obtained by averaging over some players who actually do not even master the mechanics of bosses. Not entirely sure if these charts take into account a lot of random "gg" in the encounter when some mechanics failed (i think they do because thats still part of failure cases, similar to arcdps logs which record all the failure cases).  Taking KC as an example, pwr stacking chrono is meta in high end groups, where not much orb pushing is required to phase the boss because everyone is able to hit high base dps number. However, in general pugs where the base dps is much lower than high end groups, the druid needs to push orbs through much more times in order to have high enough stacks to phase the boss, and in this case, classes like pwr soulbeast or pwr holo is still better than chrono, due to their insane burst nature scaled up even further when KC is exposed. 

 

I agree with your suggestions on the change of furious strength trait, as long as it achieves the ultimate goal, which is uplifting the slb dps to other classes's level.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Armen.1483]

While I think Sic Em nerf was needed, SLB definitely needs some passive trait to compensate the damage loss. Patch notes said that they are buffing the overall damage, but that compensation buff was so miniscule that it is not even worth mentioning.

OWP nerf though was what triggers me the most. In fractals soulbeast is still performing quite well, ofc not broken as before, but still quite strong and funnily enough OWP nerf doesn't feel much in Fractal CMs, because of the phases. So if they wanted to nerf OWP  in fractals, they failed, because OWP still does the exact same thing in fractals. Example: I was using OWP on prestack, 1st and 3rd phase on Skorvald before the patch and after the patch, with a good group you weren't able to cast it on phase 2 anyway, so cd nerf didn't affect it. Same goes to some other fractal bosses especially in CMs, you just change the time you use it.

However it is quite a different story in raids, in raids you feel the difference quite well. Wasn't the nerf supposed to do the opposite ? I hope devs will find a solution in the next patch. If you don't like the high burst of soulbeast, it's fine, but give him some sustain damage.