Runes for WvW small scale fights

[Boh.4568]

I'm really undecided about which runes to use on a WvW reaper for small scale fights. I don't do much solo roaming and 50vs50 zergs are just "stay close to the commander".

In small scale such as max 10v10 I'd like to give good boon corruption and then spike damage when needed, that's why I'm trying to avoid the blood magic trait and go with reaper-soulreaping-spite, and so my survivability would rely on LF management, marauder gear and the armor runes.

Durability runes are a very solid choice, but I always feel slow with my limited mobility options, so I was considering Fireworks and Speed.

Fireworks is good for the damage spike, but I don't know if the flat 25% movement speed is noticeable when you are in combat and you move like a snail anyways.

Speed is what I want to try, but I don't use warhorn, and spectral walk has a really long CD. The speed of shadows trait on the other hand is perfect for the speed rune, but I'd have to give up on the unblockable marks on the staff, which is a big hit on my ranged pressure.

Is there a way to use speed rune+speed of shadows while maintaining the staff as an usable weapon even without soul marks?

Or if I'm missing any good rune feel free to discuss it here.

[Anchoku.8142]

If mobility is a concern, you can add Flesh Wurm and/or Spectral Walk, then practice rotating between front line and back line combat. 

Don't over extend yourself or you'll be bagged. You are part of a team so tag in and out.

[dank.3680]

Don't forget speed of rune has swift duration as well, which makes spectral walk CD pretty close to the amount of swift it gives. Then if you have any sort of boon stealing skills or traits, you'll likely get swift often. Of course you also get swift from teammates, so Speed rune comes into play a lot more then you might think.   I use them on both power Scourge and Reaper and it's a gamechanger for me. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by dank.3680

[KrHome.1920]

You have only one option.

 

Reaper is not viable without speed rune in smallscale.

Non speed rune reapers are my first targets and my first kills when I do smallscale.

 

/end of story

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[DeceiverX.8361]

18 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

You have only one option.

 

Reaper is not viable without speed rune in smallscale.

Non speed rune reapers are my first targets and my first kills when I do smallscale.

 

/end of story

 

 

It's absolutely doable without it but the hard requirement is either Speed and Speed of Shadows or run Signets of Suffering with SotL.

 

Both setups are good.  Speed of Shadows is probably better solo into the current meta especially with most thieves opting out of BT (I've never personally used it), but SotL is an extremely potent ability in small group combat acting as a frequent 5-7k heal and AoE boon corrupt, and is one of the sole reasons I've been able to 1vX encounters for a very long time, since operating on no source of swiftness massively improves your ability to shut down classes which punish swiftness or builds which operate around boon denial - scourge being a big threat there.

 

But yeah, without mobility investment you pretty much can't function.  I find myself not often needing wurm or walk unless specifically fighting 1v1 into a permastealth thief who decides to endlessly pester me and reset until I'm eventually out of LF, but I'm known for my non-shroud survival play, so YMMV depending on a lot of factors.

[Boh.4568]

Thanks for the input, I'll try a movespeed setup.

 

SotL sounds good because it corrupts boons and heals, but I'm not sure if it's worth adding the signet of suffering trait for a slight movespeed increase, while giving up on chill of death which is another useful max range AoE boon corrupt+chill.

Using SotL takes an important skill slot, so I'd use it with well of corruption/nothing can save you, and a stunbreak (spectral walk or armor).

I absolutely hate wurm because it's basically just a panic disengage button with nothing else added, while other classes can evade+teleport+buff+corrupt+kill with just one support skill. Spectral walk at least gives you stunbreak, swiftness and movement impairing clear.

 

Speed rune sounds great but there's still the fact that in order to trait speed of shadows I have to remove soul marks. Is the staff even usable without unblockable marks? Do speed+SoS users play with greatsword? I'd really prefer this build but I don't want to see a bunch of "miss" every time I place a mark.

[DeceiverX.8361]

6 hours ago, Boh.4568 said:

Thanks for the input, I'll try a movespeed setup.

 

SotL sounds good because it corrupts boons and heals, but I'm not sure if it's worth adding the signet of suffering trait for a slight movespeed increase, while giving up on chill of death which is another useful max range AoE boon corrupt+chill.

Using SotL takes an important skill slot, so I'd use it with well of corruption/nothing can save you, and a stunbreak (spectral walk or armor).

I absolutely hate wurm because it's basically just a panic disengage button with nothing else added, while other classes can evade+teleport+buff+corrupt+kill with just one support skill. Spectral walk at least gives you stunbreak, swiftness and movement impairing clear.

 

Speed rune sounds great but there's still the fact that in order to trait speed of shadows I have to remove soul marks. Is the staff even usable without unblockable marks? Do speed+SoS users play with greatsword? I'd really prefer this build but I don't want to see a bunch of "miss" every time I place a mark.

 

You need the trait because otherwise the signet does not apply while in shroud, which with RShroud being countered by mobility in the first place defeats the whole purpose.  Reaper is defined by its ability to deal lots of damage very quickly in shroud, rather than survive in it and chunk away at range like core necro and Scourge; if you can't keep up with your enemies to get up close and kill them that way, you're a walking loot bag because shroud is your primary offensive tool, not your primary defensive one.  If you can't catch up to your opponent, they more or less take 0 damage.

 

As I've mentioned since HoT came out when providing Reaper guides, the most important thing you need to do while playing Reaper is to cover your weaknesses as best as possible, rather than building into strengths.  Reaper has always had the raw stats to dominate melee but has a really hard time with range or highly mobile opponents; you have to make those sacrifices to keep up, otherwise you're just in for a bad time.  The synergy for max damage or whatever isn't as big of a deal because of how strong the spec is inherently for that express purpose on traits that are more or less obvious with low competition, such as Onslaught.  Because really, we can look at the reaper's bad matchups and realize all of them are the top roaming builds/specs; it's always high range or mobility with builds with awful sustain.  That's what inherently drives power in roaming and against the reaper's core mechanics.  You actively have to build to counter them to stand a chance.  But the good news is those options exist.

 

Wurm lets you catch up to thieves trying to disengage with Shadowstep/Infil Arrow which is why it's taken.  Point-and-click teleports are a major advantage in roaming and shadowsteps from thief is their primary tool of disengage and what has historically given the thief its advantage into Reaper.  Thief absolutely 100% cannot threaten you in melee range for more than a brief window before having to port out and stealth up, because there's not a single scenario where it out-damages or out-sustains reaper in an engagement when both classes are in combat range of one another.  You follow them, they die.

 

Staff is not a viable smallscale weapon and Soul Marks is a waste of a trait for anything outside of huge blobs.  It's arguably one of the worst weapons on reaper and always has been due to its poor LF generation, long cooldowns, GS4 field negation, and abysmal damage.  The only tangible benefit it has are the combo fields with condi reaper's Soul Spiral, but it's generally still better to just play scepter and GS utilit, because 99% of cases it's still better to just play condi Reaper as Dhuumfire with RO.  Even on my condi reaper which runs staff, I don't use Soul Marks.  The other options are just better outside of blob scenarios.

 

Your weapons should be GS + A/F or GS + A/D which is more or less a feel thing for you.  Unfortunately the rest of the core necro options are pretty terrible at the moment.  A/F is more damage and LF with better single target boon denial whereas A/D offers better control and condition management/AoE play.  Personally, I prefer A/D for the extra cleanse, but my style is a bit more unique with how I use certain skills and the scenarios I get myself into, and most people prefer and do better on A/F.

Edited July 5, 2021 by DeceiverX.8361

[Boh.4568]

11 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

You need the trait because otherwise the signet does not apply while in shroud.

But without SoS you still have the base signet effect of 25% movespeed even in shroud right? Or does shroud completely negate SotL unless you have SoS?

Quote

Staff is not a viable smallscale weapon and Soul Marks is a waste of a trait for anything outside of huge blobs

Your weapons should be GS + A/F or GS + A/D

I find staff useful for small scale because it keeps better pressure on smaller groups, who don't know which mark is which, and thus need to be cautious to avoid being chilled or slowed down and possibly waste a dodge or a cleanse if my teammates are pressuring them close to the marks.

On a large blob marks just get insta-cleansed by the billion of support characters around the commander.

 

This feels more like a solo roaming build, for which I agree GS is infinitely more useful than staff, and also for the wurm chase option. But I'm still quite new at WvW so I try to actively avoid being completely alone. If a good roamer catches me off-guard I will get smashed regardless of my build.

That's why I prefer some support around me, and at the same time I want to give some pressure in favor of my team, and wait for the right chance to get closer, drop boonrips at mid-range, maybe tank some hits aimed at the poor slow necro, stunbreak if needed, enter shroud, get stability and advance with my teammates.

But the skill slots are just 3, one is for stunbreak, one "should" be for teleport, there's just one slot left for boonrips. I like the NCSY!+CTTB! combo and the very low CD of NCSY!, but converting boons into vuln is not as good as corrupting them into condis. Other options are of course well of corruption, corrupt boon and SotL, having to decide is so hard and that's another reason I don't like wurm. I won't deny its usefulness in chasing and disengaging, but I just see it as a solo utility for duels.

[DeceiverX.8361]

11 hours ago, Boh.4568 said:

But without SoS you still have the base signet effect of 25% movespeed even in shroud right? Or does shroud completely negate SotL unless you have SoS?

I find staff useful for small scale because it keeps better pressure on smaller groups, who don't know which mark is which, and thus need to be cautious to avoid being chilled or slowed down and possibly waste a dodge or a cleanse if my teammates are pressuring them close to the marks.

On a large blob marks just get insta-cleansed by the billion of support characters around the commander.

 

This feels more like a solo roaming build, for which I agree GS is infinitely more useful than staff, and also for the wurm chase option. But I'm still quite new at WvW so I try to actively avoid being completely alone. If a good roamer catches me off-guard I will get smashed regardless of my build.

That's why I prefer some support around me, and at the same time I want to give some pressure in favor of my team, and wait for the right chance to get closer, drop boonrips at mid-range, maybe tank some hits aimed at the poor slow necro, stunbreak if needed, enter shroud, get stability and advance with my teammates.

But the skill slots are just 3, one is for stunbreak, one "should" be for teleport, there's just one slot left for boonrips. I like the NCSY!+CTTB! combo and the very low CD of NCSY!, but converting boons into vuln is not as good as corrupting them into condis. Other options are of course well of corruption, corrupt boon and SotL, having to decide is so hard and that's another reason I don't like wurm. I won't deny its usefulness in chasing and disengaging, but I just see it as a solo utility for duels.

 

Shroud negates all signet passives since all utility skills are disabled entirely while shroud is active, so without the trait you only get 25% while out of shroud, and nothing else.  The cooldown reduction is also no joke enough where I think this is where the utility and trait are worth taking - 10 seconds in shroud drops the cooldown by 40%, which if you're using the skill as a last-ditch effort to make a stand and eek out some sustain, can prove immensely useful while not punishing you for too long while it recharges to give you back the movespeed, since you lose signet passives after activation.  25% is also just not fast enough these days with permanent swiftness on everyone.  That slight difference means more than you'd think considering all it takes is a dodge roll + swiftness by the enemy to negate melee range strikes if you're stuck at 25%, and burning the roll offensively is almost never worthwhile.

 

Performant groups will honestly not care about the marks at all, blocked or not.  The weapon, as-is, is a trap for WvW and has been for a while (there are threads of me arguing this same point all the way back in 2015/2016).  They deal too little damage to influence anything more than maybe a 2v2 assuming no supports.  Something like SB + Pocket Heal Ele which is a super common combo can infinitely tank staff without going under like 90% HP on either player, meanwhile you need to kill that ranger within about 10 seconds or you just lose any given 2v2.  It lacks critical burst and boon denial to be of any real use while simultaneously also providing no real utility that another weapon combo can't offer already; in theory, staff is decent, but unless you're specifically building condi reaper (weak) to abuse poison fields (weak), you're sacrificing much-needed damage and utility for a weapon that really will not get you any value.

 

I think there might be a fundamental disconnect here if you're running wells into small groups.  When you say "Small groups," how many players are you referring to?  Usually this is understood in the WvW community as 2-5 (maybe 8ish absolute max) enemies.  More than that and you start getting into larger-scale stuff.  I'd also advise against thinking on making premeditated strategies or intend on depending on your allies if you're setting yourself up to flourish in this kind of context; you can't rely on anyone to negate incoming damage if two soulbeasts decide to combo you at the same time; a degree of self-sufficiency is necessary.  Necro is also a prime target to gank/1v1, so you need answers to respond to threats if you do die and have to respawn, and being versatile will help you help your allies rather than just shrugging when a thief comes by and kills the nearby mesmer.

 

 

With this, try not to think about it as optimizing your DPS/comboing and consider the original goals regarding covering your weaknesses.  NCSY is nice into some specific matchups thanks to unblockable, but you end up with too many vulnerabilities, especially into the more prominent smallscale classes; as you said, you only have three utility slots and at a minimum you need to devote at least one to mobility.  Pick the best cleanse (Suffer) and stunbreak/life force gain (Spectral Armor) and what's left is your desired choice of necessary mobility, unless you're looking to build around something totally different than the normal power reaper setup.  However, it's worth noting that such setups are rarely more effective in smallscale.

[Boh.4568]

I'll try the speed rune+speed of shadows build with GS and axe/focus, although I'll have to get used to the slowness of GS and actually learning to land GS5 in tricky situations. GS4 is great but trickier to use than let's say a well; WvW a lot of kiters keeping distance, especially if they see a big dumb slow power reaper fishing for melee with pulls+chills. GS3 feels only good after you land a GS5, and GS2 is just a slow spammable finisher for downed players.

 

My idea of small scale was around 5v5 max, kinda like a PvP team match without the scattering around nodes, and with actually using the gear you grinded for, rather than some template amulet and a wooden sword. And without the bots.

10v10+ without organized VC groups already feels like a dragged out ranged AoE spam for minutes, until one of the sides has the courage of actually going all in or they manage to pull enough players form the other side to punish them.

 

 

[Atticus.7194]

On 7/4/2021 at 4:58 AM, Boh.4568 said:

I'm really undecided about which runes to use on a WvW reaper for small scale fights. I don't do much solo roaming and 50vs50 zergs are just "stay close to the commander".

In small scale such as max 10v10 I'd like to give good boon corruption and then spike damage when needed, that's why I'm trying to avoid the blood magic trait and go with reaper-soulreaping-spite, and so my survivability would rely on LF management, marauder gear and the armor runes.

Durability runes are a very solid choice, but I always feel slow with my limited mobility options, so I was considering Fireworks and Speed.

Fireworks is good for the damage spike, but I don't know if the flat 25% movement speed is noticeable when you are in combat and you move like a snail anyways.

Speed is what I want to try, but I don't use warhorn, and spectral walk has a really long CD. The speed of shadows trait on the other hand is perfect for the speed rune, but I'd have to give up on the unblockable marks on the staff, which is a big hit on my ranged pressure.

Is there a way to use speed rune+speed of shadows while maintaining the staff as an usable weapon even without soul marks?

Or if I'm missing any good rune feel free to discuss it here.

Scholar, always scholar all the time for everything unless you're condi. As a necro you have absurd tankiness and condi removal built in so always always go more DPS, the class itself is babymode takes care of the rest. If you need movement just choose spectral walk or flesh wurm. 

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 7/8/2021 at 5:25 AM, Boh.4568 said:

I'll try the speed rune+speed of shadows build with GS and axe/focus, although I'll have to get used to the slowness of GS and actually learning to land GS5 in tricky situations. GS4 is great but trickier to use than let's say a well; WvW a lot of kiters keeping distance, especially if they see a big dumb slow power reaper fishing for melee with pulls+chills. GS3 feels only good after you land a GS5, and GS2 is just a slow spammable finisher for downed players.

 

My idea of small scale was around 5v5 max, kinda like a PvP team match without the scattering around nodes, and with actually using the gear you grinded for, rather than some template amulet and a wooden sword. And without the bots.

10v10+ without organized VC groups already feels like a dragged out ranged AoE spam for minutes, until one of the sides has the courage of actually going all in or they manage to pull enough players form the other side to punish them.

 

 

 

The only slow skills on GS are AA3 and Gravedigger, neither of which should be a focus of casting because AA1/AA2/3/4/5 are SO STRONG.  GS is more of a utility weapon than anything else with its great CC, life force gain, single-skill burst, and zone denial.  Gravedigger is hard nerfed for PvP/WvW and Death Spiral usually deals more damage with better range, anyways.  I only really use gravedigger to cleave downs if I have nothing better to do and there's threat of a stealth res.  If you work on animation cancelling for skills 3/4/5 the kit's actually pretty quick.  You should be swapping and shrouding when you can rather than trying to use all your skills on any given weapon before moving onto the next thing.  GS helps fuel your shroud, which is really how reaper plays for its damage.

 

At 5v5 yeah I'd recommend not taking the wells.  A lot of your foes will be ranger/thief and they'll mostly just run away since they'll already be trying to kite you and stay mobile.  If you run an organized group, there are way better support builds that do what wells do in terms of helping allies which should be played by an individual, or everyone in your group should be self-sufficient enough where it's not needed.

 

Disregard the poster above me - Scholar is only the rune setup if you opt for the Spite/SotL build.  Speed is generally considered the most superior setup for smallscale play on reaper so long as you maintain your swiftness well, and in a lot of cases, swiftness is so easily-accessed via your allies you'll likely have it permanently while in combat anyways, unless fighting against another necromancer hellbent on corrupting you of all people.  For this, Scourge is actually a matchup to be concerned about; if you have a ranger or thief in party, try to let them handle it while you pull away the others with GS5 or simply be there to absorb a bit of pressure if you have the DPS on other members as well.

Edited July 9, 2021 by DeceiverX.8361