Tournament of Necros is what.....

[De Bourgogne.9642]

19 hours ago, Terrorsquad.2349 said:

I thought we were 2021? Other classes already do what you're saying while staying on a point mid teamfight.. Mesmer, DH, Ranger, Engi, ..

Doesn't mean its not fun to play against, it should be nerfed or removed lol. Thief rn is so easy to defeat. Talking competitively? Take a thief in your team to counter theirs. Issue solved.
Can't complain about stealth since they're not attacking you. Can't complain about mobility if thief decides to waste his shadowstep and/or ini to move, means he has cd's and can't engage. 

You can't compare Thief to other classes. It's purpose is like a Jungler in LoL or DOTA. To roam, +1 and decap.

Who loves playing the current meta with current powerdip? Without Thief, it will just get more boring and very slow rotations.

Did not say we're in condi meta, Im saying we're in a powerdip due to constant general nerfing instead of buffing and promoting builds. Which should be obvious all those years of nerfing, sooner or later it hits a ceiling and the game gets boring. Why do you think many previous champions/esports teams quit the game or just stream the game now and then and call the game kitten over and over? Everything got nerfed too much. And thinking of it: core game was good but it went all downhill with HoT and worse with PoF. Don't you find it weird the meta and PvP scene as a whole gets worse while it actually should improve over time? Whenever you start to realise it, you'll be dead and sad inside.

If enjoy current meta, good for you. And I hope you and many others do but Im afraid reality is different. And queue times and pvp population and the fact Anet introduced Legendary gear through PvP to pull PvE's into PvP says enough.

 

Yeah tell me how mesmer engieeer ranger have same amount of stealth and mobility as thief lmao. Nice entitlement to class of thief being the only one allowed to play certain role. They quit the game because there is no money in it or they got bored of it after so many years of a expansion and many other reasons one of them state of daredevil lol. Yeah I agree core was best then, HoT was worse and PoF even worse but you know why? Because of powercreep of new specs which current 'powerdip' is addressing so you are contradicting yourself. 

[De Bourgogne.9642]

5 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

necro needs more nerfs cause its used too much is = to every other class needs more boon duration and stack nerfs 

 

People seem to not see the realation between the main single boon hate class and  the 85% of  other professions which heavily depends upon boons to function effectively. There are 2 solutions

 

- Nerf boon stacks and duration which directly reduces the needs for necromancers 

- Make more classes that give up utility like, sustain, boons, mobility, breakstuns, or other things for boon removal increasing options to take necromancer's place

 

A few things 

Steal in general is not healthy its not just swipe. But i doubt anet can do much to change it that wouldn't out right crush thief its one few ways they have left to get an upper hand without stealth spamming.

 

Dont assume people will run high dps builds just because you nerf tanky ones

They wont they will just find what ever is the next tankiy unnerfed thing and go with that.

 

The only way to force people to play dps cannons is to limit via the amulet system which effectively kills alot of builds as a side result. Ideally there should be no amulet that offers more than 500 points of any defensive/supportive stat including vitality and healing power. There should also be no amulets that merge two or more of such stats together. 

 

If anet wants people to play zerker and make gameplay faster they dont need to nerf the classes they need to cut, rebuild, or regulate amulet choices. ESPECIALLY for 2v2 and 3v3 off seasons where balance is always an issue due to classes not being anywhere near adjusted for 2v2 or 3v3, during the off seasons for example there should be certain amulets that you are not allowed to queue with on any profession. Use runes and sigils + skill to sustain and support. 

 

Something I dont like much about gw2 right now is you end up fighting stats in alot of cases more so than a persons skill and class.

Boon duration and stacking has been nerfed in a wrong way to the point they are often meaningless already. Boons need to be changed a bit (remove pulsing, some skills have boons removed, some duration increased ect) but flat out nerfing them will just make them irrelevant part of the game. You don't really run necro for boonsteal/corruption that is just extra.

 

Running full glasscannons is not the same as not running bunkers. Amulet way of forcing meta is very lame. And bunkers should exist as long as they aren't overpowered as concept of a bunker is fundamentally flawed in conquest gamemode and is by itself a weak type of build it needs other characteristics to it to even work. Forget about 2v2 and 3v3 game modes that should never be balanced for. Those modes are boring compared to conquest anyways. 

 

If that is what you don't like about gw2 then idk what mmo you like since in most other mmos stats play much bigger role then in this game (considering most games already have not equal gear in pvp). 

Edited July 16, 2021 by McPero.3287

[Terrorsquad.2349]

4 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Yeah tell me how mesmer engieeer ranger have same amount of stealth and mobility as thief lmao. Nice entitlement to class of thief being the only one allowed to play certain role. They quit the game because there is no money in it or they got bored of it after so many years of a expansion and many other reasons one of them state of daredevil lol. Yeah I agree core was best then, HoT was worse and PoF even worse but you know why? Because of powercreep of new specs which current 'powerdip' is addressing so you are contradicting yourself. 

I was pointing out that other classes have same mechanics while being able to fight in teamfights as thief does. What I meant was that all mechanics thiefs have, is not only for thief but also accessible for others while able to remain in scrims sidenodes or teamfight with decent support for you. Engi, ranger and mesmer have access to stealth (skills or field combo; leap, elixir, weapon skill). Mobility; yes a thief has a bit more mobility but shortbow 5 requires 8 ini now, last time I checked. Steal helps but only within 600 range. Shadowstep helps but is anti-stun. With rev. lb ranger or DPS guard in team, that might not be best idea to waste it. Thief is unique that it needs to pick and burst on a target and disengage before it gets caught. Other classes in current meta don't need to be as careful as thieves need to, imo. Thieves dont have blocks or invulnerable as other classes do to kite. Because thieves need to be mobile, it's hard to support them unless, again, comms. I certainly agree it is pushed in a certain direction to play a specific role, which is not always fun in (un)ranked matches without comms. I very much like playing thief but it feels frustrating more than ever as the risk/reward not being balanced.

 

About the powerdip: I was talking about the February 2020 patch. Which was a damage nerf to all classes and specs across the board. So it doesn't really address as you say it does because otherwise it would've been only for the specs and not core. Therefore core-builds are out of the window while they were hardly viable to start with since HoT brought builds that brought more onboard. They were going in a powercreep for a while but next to damage, their utilities (and so the possibilities), generally, were better as well. 

Look, if they want to, they could balance per specialization by giving each spec its own stats once you trait to a specialization so they dont need to touch core. For example: thief changes to Dare Devil = less hp, less damage, more crit, less condi, more ini or mobility. That's just how I see it and is of course my opinion but that way you don't nerf the class across the board but just the specialization.

Im an advocate to spread the balance across the board but core classes still need to be viable in my opinion but due to having many too many classes and specs, it's just too hard now to do. There will never be decent balance because the meta (hopefully) changes the way ArenaNet wants to.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

19 minutes ago, Terrorsquad.2349 said:

I was pointing out that other classes have same mechanics while being able to fight in teamfights as thief does. What I meant was that all mechanics thiefs have, is not only for thief but also accessible for others while able to remain in scrims sidenodes or teamfight with decent support for you. Engi, ranger and mesmer have access to stealth (skills or field combo; leap, elixir, weapon skill). Mobility; yes a thief has a bit more mobility but shortbow 5 requires 8 ini now, last time I checked. Steal helps but only within 600 range. Shadowstep helps but is anti-stun. With rev. lb ranger or DPS guard in team, that might not be best idea to waste it. Thief is unique that it needs to pick and burst on a target and disengage before it gets caught. Other classes in current meta don't need to be as careful as thieves need to, imo. Thieves dont have blocks or invulnerable as other classes do to kite. Because thieves need to be mobile, it's hard to support them unless, again, comms. I certainly agree it is pushed in a certain direction to play a specific role, which is not always fun in (un)ranked matches without comms. I very much like playing thief but it feels frustrating more than ever as the risk/reward not being balanced.

 

About the powerdip: I was talking about the February 2020 patch. Which was a damage nerf to all classes and specs across the board. So it doesn't really address as you say it does because otherwise it would've been only for the specs and not core. Therefore core-builds are out of the window while they were hardly viable to start with since HoT brought builds that brought more onboard. They were going in a powercreep for a while but next to damage, their utilities (and so the possibilities), generally, were better as well. 

Look, if they want to, they could balance per specialization by giving each spec its own stats once you trait to a specialization so they dont need to touch core. For example: thief changes to Dare Devil = less hp, less damage, more crit, less condi, more ini or mobility. That's just how I see it and is of course my opinion but that way you don't nerf the class across the board but just the specialization.

Im an advocate to spread the balance across the board but core classes still need to be viable in my opinion but due to having many too many classes and specs, it's just too hard now to do. There will never be decent balance because the meta (hopefully) changes the way ArenaNet wants to.

Yeah you are very biased if you think thief needs to be more careful then mesmer engineer ranger roamer builds. Daredevil can choose to never die, no other spec can do that. 'Little bit more mobility?' tell me what mobility does nade holo have? It has a like 450 range leap on 15 seconds cd and 80% uptime on superspeed if it spams holo 2. Thief has unmatched mobility and there is no discussion needed to be had if you don't think so you've probably never played another class. Meta mesmer build has 3 seconds of stealth on 24 seconds cooldown. Engineer and ranger have a bit more because they can combo fields but they don't have nearly as much as daredevil. Thief doesn't needs invuns or blocks because stealth is almost invun in many cases. If you are struggling playing daredevil try playing a different class and you will see how safe daredevil. If you are good on daredevil you don't die ever in current meta,unless you greed/are forced into a fight because you otherwise lose the game. And no thief is not unique in regard it has to burst before it gets caught that goes for pretty much all roamers expect thief has the easiest way of not getting caught compared to others. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by McPero.3287

[ZDragon.3046]

25 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Boon duration and stacking has been nerfed in a wrong way to the point they are often meaningless already. Boons need to be changed a bit (remove pulsing, some skills have boons removed, some duration increased ect) but flat out nerfing them will just make them irrelevant part of the game. You don't really run necro for boonsteal/corruption that is just extra.

 

That does not change the fact tho. 

Quote

Running full glasscannons is not the same as not running bunkers. Amulet way of forcing meta is very lame. And bunkers should exist as long as they aren't overpowered as concept of a bunker is fundamentally flawed in conquest gamemode and is by itself a weak type of build it needs other characteristics to it to even work. Forget about 2v2 and 3v3 game modes that should never be balanced for. Those modes are boring compared to conquest anyways. 

So what do you want you want people to run glass but you expect them to do it on their own free will? Cause that will never happen. Ideally what you are then asking for are all sustain traits and builds to be nerfed which leaves no room to really use those amulets that those builds use anyways which is effectively the same as removing the amulet all you did was leave it there to be an "optional pick" that no one will ever use which is literally the same as just removing it in the first place. 

 

And while i agree professions should not be specifically nerfed for 2v2 and 3v3 a way to handle that would be by limited amulets for those modes only which is honestly fair enough. Never did I ever say balance classes for 2v2 or 3v3 cause it realistically wont happen and shouldnt happen but i do think certain amulets should be barred from use for those modes.

Quote

If that is what you don't like about gw2 then idk what mmo you like since in most other mmos stats play much bigger role then in this game (considering most games already have not equal gear in pvp). 

 

Sorry no alot of other mmo's generally know how to balance their classes to the point stats used are a minor thing. 

Gw2 is one of the few games where ive seen players too many times go "What amulet" instead of "What build?" or comment players on their play style. 

 

Fighting a build or play style = good

Fighting an amulet or specific rune (trapper) = bad 

Edited July 16, 2021 by ZDragon.3046

[De Bourgogne.9642]

11 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

 

That does not change the fact tho. 

So what do you want you want people to run glass but you expect them to do it on their own free will? Cause that will never happen. Ideally what you are then asking for are all sustain traits and builds to be nerfed which leaves no room to really use those amulets that those builds use anyways which is effectively the same as removing the amulet all you did was leave it there to be an "optional pick" that no one will ever use which is literally the same as just removing it in the first place. 

 

And while i agree professions should not be specifically nerfed for 2v2 and 3v3 a way to handle that would be by limited amulets for those modes only which is honestly fair enough. Never did I ever say balance classes for 2v2 or 3v3 cause it realistically wont happen and shouldnt happen but i do think certain amulets should be barred from use for those modes.

 

Sorry no alot of other mmo's generally know how to balance their classes to the point stats used are a minor thing. 

Gw2 is one of the few games where ive seen players too many times go "What amulet" instead of "What build?" or comment players on their play style. 

 

Fighting a build or play style = good

Fighting an amulet or specific rune (trapper) = bad 

Of course it does. Problem with necro is its too tanky with aoe spam not corrupting boons. Corrupting boons is part of necro identity that gives flavour to the mmo which is reason people like mmos over perfectly balanced chess. If you remove importance of boons this becomes less important and necro is less necro. 

 

I mean people have ran glasscannon and still do willing and because it is good, not sure where the idea comes that everyone is a coward wanting to play tanky bunkers. 

What I am getting is that you want guild wars 2 to be boring like other mmos in regards that certain class is forced into certain role/type of damage and there is no build variety to it? You play thief? Yeah you can only play berserker amulet. You play ele? Yeah you can only be a healer. You play necro? Yeah you can only play condi. Thats what wow did to 'balance' their game dumbed down and homogenised their classes and forced playstyles and it killed pvp in the game. They also balanced gearing where stats on your gear are mostly irrelevant and all it matters is item level which is really fun lmao. Nothing to think about just take highest item level perfect balance. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by McPero.3287

[Terrorsquad.2349]

1 minute ago, McPero.3287 said:

Yeah you are very biased if you think thief needs to be more careful then mesmer engineer ranger roamer builds. Daredevil can choose to never die, no other spec can do that. 'Little bit more mobility?' tell me what mobility does nade holo have? It has a like 450 range leap on 15 seconds cd and 80% uptime on superspeed if it spams holo 2. Thief has unmatched mobility and there is no discussion needed to be had if you don't think so you've probably never played another class. Meta mesmer build has 3 seconds of stealth on 24 seconds cooldown. Engineer and ranger have a bit more because they can combo fields but they don't have nearly as much as daredevil. Thief doesn't needs invuns or blocks because stealth is almost invun in many cases. If you are struggling playing daredevil try playing a different class and you will see how safe daredevil. If you are good on daredevil you don't die ever in current meta,unless you greed/are forced into a fight because you otherwise lose the game. 

I've played most games on thief, warr, ele and guard but I also played fair share of matches on other classes, except for Scourge, which I dont play because I dont really like playing Necro.

Now, I think you're a bit overreacting on my arguments. I did not say they are equal in mobility. I said they have to worry less about getting downed compared to a thief in a scenario where both are DPS'ing the target. Nade Holo can kite on and around a point to play duelist role vs 1 or sometimes even 2 enemies to keep them busy on and around a point (if they can kite). Can thief do that? Absolutely not and I dont want thief to do that and it's not meant to do that. Thief has stealth, yes, but Revealed is not uncommon in better ranked matches. What is a thief without stealth? All they can do is run if they still have the ini and shadowstep available. If not = gg. Stealth is not invuln. AoE certainly makes sure of that. Stealth is stealth, invuln is invuln, simple as that. A good daredevil doesn't just stealth and stay alive. It does its job by engaging and disengaging when it needs to without dying. Btw, nr1 rule overal in PvP for all classes: try do not die. Everyone should try to stay alive and kite by their own means. Stealth or teleport are the easiest ways at the cost of not being able to play revealed or spam 111111 while being visible in a fight while other classes are exact able to do that because it's meant that way.

 

Look I think we both want the best for PvP but discussing about stealth on a thief and compare it with other classes is getting us nowhere. Apples and oranges.. Can't compare. Game is not balanced and never will be.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

1 minute ago, Terrorsquad.2349 said:

I've played most games on thief, warr, ele and guard but I also played fair share of matches on other classes, except for Scourge, which I dont play because I dont really like playing Necro.

Now, I think you're a bit overreacting on my arguments. I did not say they are equal in mobility. I said they have to worry less about getting downed compared to a thief in a scenario where both are DPS'ing the target. Nade Holo can kite on and around a point to play duelist role vs 1 or sometimes even 2 enemies to keep them busy on and around a point (if they can kite). Can thief do that? Absolutely not and I dont want thief to do that and it's not meant to do that. Thief has stealth, yes, but Revealed is not uncommon in better ranked matches. What is a thief without stealth? All they can do is run if they still have the ini and shadowstep available. If not = gg. Stealth is not invuln. AoE certainly makes sure of that. Stealth is stealth, invuln is invuln, simple as that. A good daredevil doesn't just stealth and stay alive. It does its job by engaging and disengaging when it needs to without dying. Btw, nr1 rule overal in PvP for all classes: try do not die. Everyone should try to stay alive and kite by their own means. Stealth or teleport are the easiest ways at the cost of not being able to play revealed or spam 111111 while being visible in a fight while other classes are exact able to do that because it's meant that way.

 

Look I think we both want the best for PvP but discussing about stealth on a thief and compare it with other classes is getting us nowhere. Apples and oranges.. Can't compare. Game is not balanced and never will be.

Not what you said but you are right no point in arguing if your thief bias is so strong. 

[Terrorsquad.2349]

Just now, McPero.3287 said:

Not what you said but you are right no point in arguing if your thief bias is so strong. 

Or if your anti-thief bias is so strong. Let's agree to disagree.

[ZDragon.3046]

4 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

I mean people have ran glasscannon and still do willing and because it is good, not sure where the idea comes that everyone is a coward wanting to play tanky bunkers. 

Not sure where the idea of you brining up nerfing sustain builds leading to people playing glass comes from then.

Realistically if the majority of players were playing glass you would have had no reason to bring that statement to the table here or am I incorrect in my assumption. 

 

Either you said it for no reason or people are not playing glass on their own free will meaning you felt the need to mention  nerfing those specific things. 

 

Yes I am aware that some people play glass willingly (i am one of them who often runs assassin stats)

However I am also aware of just how many people DO NOT and will happily run the most tanky sustain heavy things they can find because if they cant out skill a player with similar glass stats the next option is to just out sustain them especially if you have to fight them on a tiny point get the victory. 

 

4 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

What I am getting is that you want guild wars 2 to be boring like other mmos in regards that certain class is forced into certain role/type of damage and there is no build variety to it?

Thats not what I said. 

I dont care what type of damage you are doing be it condition or power damage. Condition and power damage should be equally optional on all classes. Im not saying lock each class to its own set of amulets. I'm saying to limit amulet choices for everyone generally. This is not a case of one class can use assassin stats and another cannot. 

The removal of amulets that provide too much sustain and support have nothing to do with the type of damage you deal where is this coming from???? 

I think you are are placing words in my mouth ever so slightly no offense to you. 

4 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

You play thief? Yeah you can only play berserker amulet. You play ele? Yeah you can only be a healer. You play necro? Yeah you can only play condi. Thats what wow did to 'balance' their game dumbed down and homogenised their classes and forced playstyles and it killed pvp in the game. 

Yes this confirms that you did not understand my statement 

 

what im saying is that amulets like rabid should not provide as much toughness in pvp

Amulets like carrion should not provide as much vitality in pvp

Aumlets that provide a combo of vitality and toughness or healing power should probably not exist in pvp.

 

IF you readjust what type of amulets exist you can encourage people to play more risky glassier builds even when they are supporting.

 

[De Bourgogne.9642]

10 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Not sure where the idea of you brining up nerfing sustain builds leading to people playing glass comes from then.

Realistically if the majority of players were playing glass you would have had no reason to bring that statement to the table here or am I incorrect in my assumption. 

 

Either you said it for no reason or people are not playing glass on their own free will meaning you felt the need to mention  nerfing those specific things. 

 

Yes I am aware that some people play glass willingly (i am one of them who often runs assassin stats)

However I am also aware of just how many people DO NOT and will happily run the most tanky sustain heavy things they can find because if they cant out skill a player with similar glass stats the next option is to just out sustain them especially if you have to fight them on a tiny point get the victory. 

 

Thats not what I said. 

I dont care what type of damage you are doing be it condition or power damage. Condition and power damage should be equally optional on all classes. Im not saying lock each class to its own set of amulets. I'm saying to limit amulet choices for everyone generally. This is not a case of one class can use assassin stats and another cannot. 

The removal of amulets that provide too much sustain and support have nothing to do with the type of damage you deal where is this coming from???? 

I think you are are placing words in my mouth ever so slightly no offense to you. 

Yes this confirms that you did not understand my statement 

 

what im saying is that amulets like rabid should not provide as much toughness in pvp

Amulets like carrion should not provide as much vitality in pvp

Aumlets that provide a combo of vitality and toughness or healing power should probably not exist in pvp.

 

IF you readjust what type of amulets exist you can encourage people to play more risky glassier builds even when they are supporting.

 

There is nothing wrong with carrion, and damage on rabid is pretty bad it sees almost no use. The only amulet with toughness and vitality is paladin which is also used for maybe 2 builds? And it has 200 less stats then other amulet as penalty. Vitality + healing power amulets are essential for elementalist else this class just cant function if you only gave it healing power. I  misunderstood you yes. But I still believe removing amulets further would be really bad because there is no problematic amulets atm. If you look at amulets played rn in the meta comp it is double berserker, 1 demolishers, 2 avatar. Once scourge is nerfed and out of meta that is likely to be replaced by another damage heavy amulet such as carrion. Carrion by no means is a problematic amulet outside of core necro maybe but if you remove it core necro doesn't have many good options left. Not sure at what level you play pvp so that could explain why you think people run tanky amulets mostly. And btw assassins amulet is pretty bad for most builds. I don't really understand what you are talking about in first part of the message but yes glass builds are meta, good and played a lot in ranked and competitive. You dont need to force people to play them by removing paladin amulet which nobody uses lol. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by McPero.3287

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, McPero.3287 said:

Nice entitlement to class of thief being the only one allowed to play certain role. 

 

This is funny because decap roamer is the only role thief is allowed to play. The moment they encroach on anything that resembles node defense or teamfight they are swiftly sent back to their corner with nerfs.

 

And then the corner gets made smaller because people then turn around and go "why are thieves allowed to be so mobile/why are thieves allowed to run from -absolutely everything-", while needing exactly one of them to decap their opponents nodes when they wipe at mid. But not two of them because they can only play one role and having two roamers makes the team weak. 

 

They have no builds for anything outside of roaming in the PVP/WVW scene. That's their only thing. You want thieves to do something other than roam/share the roamer role? Give them literally any other build style to play. 

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[ThrakathNar.4537]

1 hour ago, McPero.3287 said:

Prot holo actually runs demolisher over avatar because of different reasons, coefficient is completely comparable to other classes heals. Its heal base value is already really good when you consider its cooldown (same thing for ranger troll urgent). It also has insane condi cleanse meaning the main threat is power damage and toughness from amulet will actually give it more 'healing' in form of damage reduction then having healing power. The other reason which is bigger part it is more damage. If prot holo would heal a lot and play avatar to have very low damage it would be just a bad water weaver. Reason why prot holo is so good is it actually bullies other sidenoders off node with its power damage pressure while also being immune to condis and having permanent improved protection and toughness from demo vs power damage. At same time it also has decap potential with instant knockback on shield 4. It is a complete build in terms of sidenoding. The only build that can kill prot holo 1v1 is a great strength warrior until it gets swiped from stealth and spammed by heartseaker (daredevil just decap bot no damage btw). 

 

If what you say is correct that playing bunker that can sustain on node is more value then a sidenoder with damage then why is water weaver not played? Sage amulet, rune of the weaver quad stances the barrier on stance trait and you are face tanking and evading two people on node. It has more evades then prot holo it has a 3s invun permanent vigor insane healing ect.

 

Reality is at high end competitive bunkers have only really worked when they were completely unkillable (not the case right now), had good damage at same time, had mobility to match thief and could semi support teamfight (old druid) or decap builds that don't need someone to win them node but they can push a node and slowly get it for themselves. For example if you play full bunker comp the second you lose nodes you lost the game. 

Coefficient on the heal isn't the only relevant thing - holo gets a lot of passive sustain from heat therapy and compounding chemicals, neither of which have high coefficients, resulting in toughness giving higher effective health per second than healing power does. Apart from Spb, LR does also have a chance at killing it due to lack of stability.

 

Regarding water weaver, fire weaver can do most of that. It has the evasion and invuln from sword focus, it has the barrier from stance trait still, it still takes sage amulet, and signet. Additionally, it's not as if fire doesn't provide support - it does. The cleanse from auras and transmuting is powerful, and you're not in short supply of them either, with leaps, skills, and fire attunement. Because this cleanse comes mainly from fire, it gives you support when you're being most agressive, as compared to water which bunches up your sustain towards one attunement (not many sources of regen for cleanse outside water). The constant might application also helps protect your more valuable boons from removal. I will admit that water provides a lot more healing than fire does. However, since Mender's was removed and weaver barrier has been absolutely gutted, water weaver can't survive indefinitely 1v2 on node (assuming the opponents have brains and have damage of their own). If damage was reduced on certain classes (which was what the original person I was replying to suggested to "make PvP more fast paced") then it would only make water weaver more attractive as an option.

 

[De Bourgogne.9642]

4 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

This is funny because decap roamer is the only role thief is allowed to play. The moment they encroach on anything that resembles node defense or teamfight they are swiftly sent back to their corner with nerfs.

 

And then the corner gets made smaller because people then turn around and go "why are thieves allowed to be so mobile/why are thieves allowed to run from -absolutely everything-", while needing them to decap their opponents nodes when they wipe at mid. 

 

They have no builds for anything outside of roaming in the PVP/WVW scene. That's their only thing. You want thieves to do something other than roam/share the roamer role? Give them literally any other build style to play. 

 

I mean decap roamer is a very boring role don't you think? The issue was while thief was effective teamfighter it retained decap role which made it overpowered don't you think?

 

You think sidenode perma evade staff daredevil was an interactive build? I wouldnt mind thief having a sidenoder role just it cant be broken or dumb to play against. Staff was design to be a duelist weapon.

 

I think thief should be reworked where it has less stealth and mobility but more damage to be more relevant in teamfights. It can still have most and best mobility just currently it is much higher then the other roamers.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

4 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Coefficient on the heal isn't the only relevant thing - holo gets a lot of passive sustain from heat therapy and compounding chemicals, neither of which have high coefficients, resulting in toughness giving higher effective health per second than healing power does. Apart from Spb, LR does also have a chance at killing it due to lack of stability.

 

Regarding water weaver, fire weaver can do most of that. It has the evasion and invuln from sword focus, it has the barrier from stance trait still, it still takes sage amulet, and signet. Additionally, it's not as if fire doesn't provide support - it does. The cleanse from auras and transmuting is powerful, and you're not in short supply of them either, with leaps, skills, and fire attunement. Because this cleanse comes mainly from fire, it gives you support when you're being most agressive, as compared to water which bunches up your sustain towards one attunement (not many sources of regen for cleanse outside water). The constant might application also helps protect your more valuable boons from removal. I will admit that water provides a lot more healing than fire does. However, since Mender's was removed and weaver barrier has been absolutely gutted, water weaver can't survive indefinitely 1v2 on node (assuming the opponents have brains and have damage of their own). If damage was reduced on certain classes (which was what the original person I was replying to suggested to "make PvP more fast paced") then it would only make water weaver more attractive as an option.

 

You don't have aura share on fire weaver so yes fire is 0 support. But yeah water weaver is kitten especially when fire has almost same suitability while also having good node pressure. 

No the original person was saying daredevil +1 without counterplay makes people play tanky stuff not that less damage would make game more fast paced.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

16 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

You don't have aura share on fire weaver so yes fire is 0 support. But yeah water weaver is kitten especially when fire has almost same suitability while also having good node pressure. 

No the original person was saying daredevil +1 without counterplay makes people play tanky stuff not that less damage would make game more fast paced.

I was only thinking about self-sustain, water is definitely much more value for group oriented support (although some support tempest builds will run both fire and water instead of water and earth).

 

On the original quote though:

"When the only thing to counter a class is playing the exact same class and hope he's a better player is not a counter. Having a class that can never die, is not healthy. Swipe is not healthy. 

 

You would need to hit a few other outliers too though, namely holo, scourge and jalis.

 

Nerfing these classes would result in people running builds with higher dps and would make PvP more fast paced. The reason people run tanky side-noders is because thief currently one shots the squishy ones."

 

Unless I'm misinterpreting it (or it's poorly phrased) then it's suggesting that nerfing holo scourge and jalis would make people run builds with higher DPS (unless it's talking about nerfing their sustain, but it's really not clear if that was the meaning).

I might be reading it incorrectly though, in which case, my mistake.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

11 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

I was only thinking about self-sustain, water is definitely much more value for group oriented support (although some support tempest builds will run both fire and water instead of water and earth).

 

On the original quote though:

"When the only thing to counter a class is playing the exact same class and hope he's a better player is not a counter. Having a class that can never die, is not healthy. Swipe is not healthy. 

 

You would need to hit a few other outliers too though, namely holo, scourge and jalis.

 

Nerfing these classes would result in people running builds with higher dps and would make PvP more fast paced. The reason people run tanky side-noders is because thief currently one shots the squishy ones."

 

Unless I'm misinterpreting it (or it's poorly phrased) then it's suggesting that nerfing holo scourge and jalis would make people run builds with higher DPS (unless it's talking about nerfing their sustain, but it's really not clear if that was the meaning).

I might be reading it incorrectly though, in which case, my mistake.

Support has nothing to do with self sustain. Support means helping others. So that makes no sense.

 

Every roamer does more damage then a thief but people don't die to them as much as to thief plus. Why because they are usually able to see them coming allowing them to kite on no port spots or LoS ect, original poster also explained that.  He means that nerfing protection holo not nade holo i believe, scourge, jalis and daredevil (or rather changing daredevil) would lead to a meta with higher DPS builds. So 3 of those builds are actually problematic because of their defenses and daredevil is just altogether unhealthy.

Edited July 16, 2021 by McPero.3287

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

46 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

I mean decap roamer is a very boring role don't you think?

 

No, otherwise people wouldn't be upset Thief is the best at decap roaming. It is low action, sure; but node flipping is someone's thing I bet. 

 

Quote

The issue was while thief was effective teamfighter it retained decap role which made it overpowered don't you think?

This is my point. Not that it was overpowered, but that it is perceived that way despite not being stealth reliant, or perceived as mobile even when it isn't. 

 

Staff Staff Thief was the least mobile, least stealthed thief could be and it was nerfed to nonexistence anyway. Chain evades is annoying, but I certainly think the balancing could have been more measured to allow Staff to remain a viable pick for contesting nodes while still giving them windows to take damage. 

 

46 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

You think sidenode perma evade staff daredevil was an interactive build? I wouldnt mind thief having a sidenoder role just it cant be broken or dumb to play against. Staff was design to be a duelist weapon.

 

Perma evade staff daredevil was particularly egregious in its obnoxiousness, granted; but the same balancing direction that butchered it was applied to sword mainhand, acrobatics, sword/pistol (and Sword/Dagger), and every other low stealth build that allowed thieves a measure of success contesting node. 

 

Most people that say they want thief to have a low stealth sidenoder or teamfight role don't actually want that in practice, they just want thieves to be less obnoxious with (insert whatever build theyre currently doing here) without observing that almost every build they've had requires them to be obnoxious to be effective, and ended up nerfed for that reason.

 

 

Quote

I think thief should be reworked where it has less stealth and mobility but more damage to be more relevant in teamfights. It can still have most and best mobility just currently it is much higher then the other roamers.

 

I'd love less stealth for more damage/sustain, but let's face the situation here. As long as shortbow exists, or thief is relatively more mobile than other classes, no combination of skills or traits that amount to anything but +1/roaming will ever be acceptable to people who think thief is overperforming now. If you reduce the mobility to the point that other classes can compete, thief vanishes from viability, because that mobility is the only thing keeping people from not just dropping something more usable in other situations into that slot. This is a pipe dream, and it's a lot of work from the skills team to do what is effectively a roundabout nerf. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[ThrakathNar.4537]

2 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Support has nothing to do with self sustain. Support means helping others. So that makes no sense.

Then why did you mention aura share in the first place?

[De Bourgogne.9642]

Just now, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Then why did you mention aura share in the first place?

 

39 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Additionally, it's not as if fire doesn't provide support - it does. The cleanse from auras and transmuting is powerful, and you're not in short supply of them either, with leaps, skills, and fire attunement. Because this cleanse comes mainly from fire, it gives you support when you're being most agressive, as compared to water which bunches up your sustain towards one attunement (not many sources of regen for cleanse outside water).

 

 

[ThrakathNar.4537]

1 minute ago, McPero.3287 said:

 

 

 

Is this because I used the word "support" instead of "sustain"? Because what I meant was stuff that improved your survivability (hence the phrase "it gives you support", implying benefits towards yourself).

[ZDragon.3046]

1 hour ago, McPero.3287 said:

There is nothing wrong with carrion, and damage on rabid is pretty bad it sees almost no use. The only amulet with toughness and vitality is paladin which is also used for maybe 2 builds? And it has 200 less stats then other amulet as penalty. Vitality + healing power amulets are essential for elementalist else this class just cant function if you only gave it healing power. I  misunderstood you yes. But I still believe removing amulets further would be really bad because there is no problematic amulets atm. If you look at amulets played rn in the meta comp it is double berserker, 1 demolishers, 2 avatar. Once scourge is nerfed and out of meta that is likely to be replaced by another damage heavy amulet such as carrion. Carrion by no means is a problematic amulet outside of core necro maybe but if you remove it core necro doesn't have many good options left. Not sure at what level you play pvp so that could explain why you think people run tanky amulets mostly. And btw assassins amulet is pretty bad for most builds. I don't really understand what you are talking about in first part of the message but yes glass builds are meta, good and played a lot in ranked and competitive. You dont need to force people to play them by removing paladin amulet which nobody uses lol. 

I cant understand how you can come to a forum and write about how certain builds need to effectively have their sustain reduced when the amulets provide the ability for most of that sustain then say there is nothing wrong with x amulet or y amulet. 

 

I also cant understand why you would bring up the need of making gameplay faster if according to you everything is FINE  cause META is glass cannon and its all everyone uses. WHY bring up the statement in the first place. This is what im trying to understand. I really need your help on this one and im not even being sarcastic. 

 

I cant comprehend the process of making a statement that x thing needs to be nerfed  for the sake of speeding up game play then doubling back on it 2 post later by saying "people dont play META like that so what you are saying makes no sense." 

 

Ele is poorly designed in a since that it requires both those stats to work which is why every time healing power amulets take a kick they get thrown out of the meta and every time healing stats amulets get a boost  they become too annoying and op for most people to handle apparently. 🤷‍♂️

I think fixing the amulet system would be a good start before going in to adjust any class or its traits for sustain. 

 

If scourge is the problem now it either still will be after the changes unless you gut it into an unusable state or people will move on to the next best thing which you might find to be equally annoying once you start seeing it every match 24/7

I personally think scourge is of poor design because its forced to play bunker to make up for what it lost with a very simple shroud mechanic that core and reaper both have. 

 

Anet removed a critical part of what makes necromancer function properly from an offensive and defensive aspect and replaced it with barrier+zone control which is not nearly as defensive as the shrouds are realistically. On top of this the utility scourge  gets does not make up for the lack of a shroud most of it is overloaded with boon hate instead of utility for the scourge.

 

As i told someone else do not include minion master scourge in this as minion master of any type is particularly problematic for a lot of builds/player and the issue with minion master lies within the minion traits themselves not particularly scourge traits.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

5 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

No, otherwise people wouldn't be upset Thief is the best at decap roaming. It is low action, sure; but node flipping is someone's thing I bet. 

 

 

Staff Staff Thief was the least mobile, least stealthed thief could be and it was nerfed to nonexistence anyway. Chain evades is annoying, but I certainly think the balancing could have been more measured to allow Staff to remain a viable pick for contesting nodes while still giving them windows to take damage. 

 

 

Perma evade staff daredevil was particularly egregious in its obnoxiousness, granted; but the same balancing direction that butchered it was applied to sword mainhand, acrobatics, sword/pistol (and Sword/Dagger), and every other low stealth build that allowed thieves a measure of success contesting node. 

 

Most people that say they want thief to have a sidenoder or teamfight role don't actually want that in practice, they just want thieves to be less obnoxious with (insert whatever build theyre currently doing here) without observing that almost every build they've had requires them to be obnoxious to be effective, and ended up nerfed for that reason.

 

 

I'd love less stealth for more damage/sustain, but let's face the situation here. As long as shortbow exists, or thief is relatively more mobile than other classes, no combination of skills or traits that amount to anything but +1/roaming will ever be acceptable to people who think thief is overperforming now. If you reduce the mobility to the point that other classes can compete, thief vanishes from viability, because that mobility is the only thing keeping people from not just dropping something more usable in other situations into that slot. This is a pipe dream, and it's a lot of work from the skills team to do what is effectively a roundabout nerf. 

Why do you bring up staff staff thief when I said that strong teamfight + unmatched decap roamer is overpowered state of thief?

 

Well if everyone found those thief builds so obnoxious the were probably onto something? Maybe they were? I don't mind thief having a sidenode build as long as its not obnoxious pretty simple concept, same as I don't want any other class to have obnoxious sidenode builds.

 

I agree that reworking thief would be very hard to do and I don't expect it to happen, so I stand by the idea if something is not a good design and can't be balanced nerf it into irrelevance.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

3 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Is this because I used the word "support" instead of "sustain"? Because what I meant was stuff that improved your survivability (hence the phrase "it gives you support", implying benefits towards yourself).

Well support is just wrong word for what you were talking about. I'm not nitpicking words here.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

3 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

Well support is just wrong word for what you were talking about. I'm not nitpicking words here.

I really don't want to waste more time over an argument around this, so it's best if we move on and accept that sustain was the word that I meant to use.