Spellbreaker/Core Warrior Balance Suggestions

[Vagrant.7206]

@Crossaber.8934 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Kaga.7629 said:I've been a war main since the very beginnings of gw2. i've seen the meta go thru many phases, but the witch hunt is approaching super kitten sayan levels here. The OVERNERFING being bleeted about here impacts core warrior traits and things that have ALREADY been adjusted pre-pof or have been this way

for years

. I mean people are still complaning about defy pain when it's already been nerfed to 2 seconds already ( with the corresponding trait also getting a 50% duration nerf) .... while signet of stone remained untouched ( and is STILL at 6 seconds. On both the auto AND the actual signet).

Wait, you're a war main since the beginnings of GW2, and you don't know the difference between

endure

pain and

defy

pain? Ok!

@Elegie.3620 said:Unfair, eh? It seems to me lots of people conveniently forget (if they ever knew about it) that a warrior does not have access to stealth and teleport, no access to aegis, has little access to blind (1 skill = bow #4), protection (1 skill = traited Full Counter), retaliation (1 trait = Spiked armor) and is mainly played at melee (Full Counter must be played at melee, not sure if many players have noticed what this implies). So yeah, warrior has a high HP pool and heavy armor, guess why... it's the only class that cannot break sight from the enemy and must take aggro head-on.

Warrior is also one of those classes that has access to numerous gap closers, CC's, evading attacks, blocks, and more.

The vision I see from ArenaNet is that, unlike guardian, warrior is supposed to be played aggressively to keep your opponent from dealing damage (an emphasis on disabling or interfering with your opponent, rather than relying on defensive abilities or buffs). The current state of skills like last stand, FC, and defy pain is the opposite -- they allow for much more passive/defensive play than what ArenaNet seems to have laid out for the warrior.

Warrior should be played actively with their slow and telegraphed attacks, and thats exactly why they have passive defense on the first place. When you are swing a big and slow weapon, easy interrupt and predictable, you are a big attractive damage sponge, it is where the passive defense come into play. The passive defense traits are there since day one because it is the idea of Anet to balance warrior.

It is okay to reduce some of warrior's passive, lets buff sword final thrust to teleport 450 with 1/4 cast time, arc divider replace arcing slice, undo shield bash nerf, rework axe so that it is not easily kited, hammer restore the former damage and a lot more etc....

I'm ok with buffing some of their active abilities if passive gets nerfed. Warrior has too many passives going on -- probably way more than any other class.

Also, you haven't played highly telegraphed skills til you've played necro or holosmith! Warrior attacks skills are fast by comparison.

[Elegie.3620]

@Shadowflare.2759 said:Guess what. Ele has basically every single weakness that you listed.

Are you actually saying that ele has no teleport, no blind, no protection, and can only be played melee? Last time I went there with my Fresh Air elem I did have access to all these, though.

dont have weapon swap

Yes, an elem does not swap weapon, and attune to elements instead. Attuning to an element triggers weapon-swap sigils. There are four attunements available, which give access to 20 different skills per weapon.

Warrior players take so many things for granted it's not even remotely funny.

What's not remotely funny is players not understanding that classes have been designed in different ways, each having strong and weak points, specific mechanics, offering different openings in group-based roles. This makes balance something slightly more complex than comparing skills/traits across classes.

To me, PoF is an exciting event. There are so many new things to learn, difficulties to overcome, and I spend the little time I have studying all that and making experiments. I get killed every day in a new fashion, and learn day by day (yesterday got one-shot at 25k by a deadeye, gotta investigate this).

I'm just a bit sad most players would rather rush and yell at balance without even trying. Analysis and practice is a strong part of any PvP spirit to me, but in GW2 it's more like if you think too much and don't spam, you ain't pro, and if you die too much, it's because of OP skills/traits.

[Loop.8106]

@Elegie.3620 said:I'm just a bit sad most players would rather rush and yell at balance without even trying.The expansion has been out for 6 weeks now. Warriors are disgustingly over-represented and are incredibly overperforming. Has nothing to do about not trying.

People that used to be top 150 on war suddenly jumped to top 10 with a 5/1 winratio.

[Emberheart.8426]

@Loop.8106 said:

@Elegie.3620 said:I'm just a bit sad most players would rather rush and yell at balance without even trying.The expansion has been out for 6 weeks now. Warriors are disgustingly over-represented and are incredibly overperforming. Has nothing to do about not trying.

People that used to be top 150 on war suddenly jumped to top 10 with a 5/1 winratio.

Also the representation of warriors in the top tier of ATs implies that it is not a skill issue. Unless the best players in the game are also unskilled and refuse to learn to counter spellbreaker.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/13166/monthly-at-class-representationBut yeah, ele is just fine compared to warrior, the strengths and weaknesses of these professions are very well balanced :p

[Kaga.7629]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Kaga.7629 said:I've been a war main since the very beginnings of gw2. i've seen the meta go thru many phases, but the witch hunt is approaching super kitten sayan levels here. The OVERNERFING being bleeted about here impacts core warrior traits and things that have ALREADY been adjusted pre-pof or have been this way

for years

. I mean people are still complaning about defy pain when it's already been nerfed to 2 seconds already ( with the corresponding trait also getting a 50% duration nerf) .... while signet of stone remained untouched ( and is STILL at 6 seconds. On both the auto AND the actual signet).

Wait, you're a war main since the beginnings of GW2, and you don't know the difference between

endure

pain and

defy

pain? Ok!

Wow. nitpick much ?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defy

Pain

(warrior_trait)

In gw1 the tanking war elite was also called Defy pain . The trait is actually named for it, even if the clicky button skill is ENDURE pain, a skill i've had on my bar since before seasons happened in spvp anyways. Potatoes. Everybody knows exactly what i was talking about here, and you're just trying to steer the conversation away from the meat of the matter here, that the lynching posse is going after skills and traits that have already been adjusted in core.

[Arheundel.6451]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:

@Hitman.5829 said:Hold your horse John Wayne, are you really advocating for a nerf/rework of: Last Stand and endure pain?Great Scott! This is heavy! Those are the only traits that make warrior a warrior and the only traits that give the warrior a fighting chance to be in the front line in WvW and you want them gone? Great Scott! You might as well put a bag icon on top of every warrior player! Your suggestion is absurd and its never going to be implemented.

Full counter is what is keeping us warrior alive in WvW serg fights. Anet finally does something good for the warrior to be competitive in WvW and you want it nerfed? Without full counter, warrior could die easily to the front line bomb because

endure pain is bugged

and it is not completely immune to damage. If you are in tier 1 where the fights in WvW get 60 vs 60 vs 60 you know what's like to be a front line warrior. I dare you to make a warrior and go to tier 1 fights without endure pain and Last Stand! I double dare you! Heck I will give you 100 gold if you make a video where you survive a bomb in tier 1 with out endure pain and Last stand.

Heck, I triple dare you John Wayne!

So, you're fine with the fact that even a mediocre warrior can win 2v1s because we get significant duration of near total CC immunity without having to take a utility skill, and a trait that is probably the most powerful auto save in the game. This wasn't as bad before because once they were used up the Warrior was defenseless but now every 6 seconds you get what amounts to a mini version of both that also includes an attack and resistance.

This is mostly from a PvP standpoint, because this is the PvP forum yet you're going on about WvW for some reason. I have a full set of ascended on my war and with the even less balanced rune and sigil options I bet you could even win 3v1. You also bring up the EP bug and yet I offered an option that will let you get bonus toughness and vitality in one use of Full Counter, bypassing the big altogether while not making it require 0 player input.

Sounds like you just want things easy, partner.

He always believes that Warrior is on the brink of being literally unplayable due to being too weak in every department. I mean hell he's made threads complaining about warrior mobility and honestly claimed necros had more mobility than war did.

Lmao

[Dreams.3128]

@Crossaber.8934 said:

@Shadowflare.2759 said:

@Elegie.3620 said:

@sinject.4607 said:Not to mention how unfair the advantage is of getting both the highest HP pool AND armor pool (which lets you take Demolisher's Amulet for free) along with traits like Spiked Armor and Thick Skin is.

Unfair, eh? It seems to me lots of people conveniently forget (if they ever knew about it) that a warrior does not have access to stealth and teleport, no access to aegis, has little access to blind (1 skill = bow #4), protection (1 skill = traited Full Counter), retaliation (1 trait = Spiked armor) and is mainly played at melee (Full Counter must be played at melee, not sure if many players have noticed what this implies). So yeah, warrior has a high HP pool and heavy armor, guess why... it's the only class that cannot break sight from the enemy and must take aggro head-on.

Sometimes I wonder whether you guys PvP experts really multiclass, having taken the time to learn and play spellbreaker, then having true problems facing them, or whether you just play a single class, never tried to roll out a warrior, and die without understanding why, blaming the first trait anyone throws out in the wild on the forum... :(

Guess what. Ele has basically every single weakness that you listed. Except we have the lowest armor and hp in game, dont have weapon swap (so we can't control range of engagement), no access to resistance, and before weaver came, we had extremely limited access to damage avoidance skills. Even with weaver, the spec we traded a good portion of sustain for, we have low access to stability and gets eaten alive by boon corrupt.

Warrior players take so many things for granted it's not even remotely funny.

And yet ele was able to dominant pvp for years since launch with so many FLAW until other classes are given powerful traits and removal of celetisal amulet, because classes are designed as a whole, with different strength and weakness in mind. The strong passive of warrior is a design choice to nullify the greatest weakenss of warrior being predictable and highly telegraphed attacks.

Try imagine how will you be able to not get inturrupted when casting those long pre cast skill without passive or pulsing stabilty? It is there for a purpose.

Here's your damn stop sign. Eles were only on top because of gimmicks. You call us a jack of all trades class, but we are heal bots. We have been mostly heal bots for like almost /four/ years now.

Yes they overtuned because of the lack of tools in cele, but that was more of the amulet and lack of boon shred. Now, because of the whiners, we have a class that can /barely/ keep up and is considered subpar to Firebrand.

I'm not asking for this class to be super meta all the time, I'm just asking for one damn build outside of water. I can't even duel on the damn class. I can only practice how to bunker which, that, in itself is garbage

I repeat, we have been on top because of gimmicks and now look where we are. No, warriors are incredibly and ridiculous spoiled with how safe their class is. I could fuck up five times on that class, where on Ele I fuck up once and I'm back at spawn.

Now I know BDO is garbage and P2W, but you know what? Their caster class can duel their melee classes with a damn staff. We can barely fight melee classes with a dagger or scepter. That says something about their design.

[sinject.4607]

@Elegie.3620 said:

@sinject.4607 said:Not to mention how unfair the advantage is of getting both the highest HP pool AND armor pool (which lets you take Demolisher's Amulet for free) along with traits like Spiked Armor and Thick Skin is.

Unfair, eh? It seems to me lots of people conveniently forget (if they ever knew about it) that a warrior does not have access to stealth and teleport, no access to aegis, has little access to blind (1 skill = bow #4), protection (1 skill = traited Full Counter), retaliation (1 trait = Spiked armor) and is mainly played at melee (Full Counter must be played at melee, not sure if many players have noticed what this implies). So yeah, warrior has a high HP pool and heavy armor, guess why... it's the only class that cannot break sight from the enemy and must take aggro head-on.

Sometimes I wonder whether you guys PvP experts really multiclass, having taken the time to learn and play spellbreaker, then having true problems facing them, or whether you just play a single class, never tried to roll out a warrior, and die without understanding why, blaming the first trait anyone throws out in the wild on the forum... :(yeah Warrior is completely defenseless. Poor things only have the strongest passive condition removal/immunity, strongest non-menders passive healing, strongest passive stability, a frame 1 weapon evade on GS, 3-4 stunbreaks, multiple gap closers, passive retaliation, a block + reflect on x/Shield, next best endurance regen to Thief, and two different invulns that still let you capture points/attack. Yeah, you guys

definitely

need highest base HP and Armor, it's totally not giving you an artificial advantage when combined with the sheer amount of passive idiocy you guys have.

You're playing a very selective game of "what mechanics i choose to forget about" and it's very easy to pick apart, almost as easy as playing Warrior.

[Elegie.3620]

@sinject.4607 said:yeah Warrior is completely defenseless. Poor things only have the strongest passive condition removal/immunity, strongest non-menders passive healing, strongest passive stability, a frame 1 weapon evade on GS, 3-4 stunbreaks, multiple gap closers, passive retaliation, a block + reflect on x/Shield, next best endurance regen to Thief, and two different invulns that still let you capture points/attack. Yeah, you guys definitely need highest base HP and Armor, it's totally not giving you an artificial advantage when combined with the sheer amount of passive idiocy you guys have.

I did not say defenseless, I explained why they had that level of HP and armor, and others contributed interesting remarks later on. I'm not sure what to add, I think it was pretty clear initially. It's a simple consequence of the design choice of the warrior class. Actually, I believe you understood my point, since you proposed a list of some other things which, combined together, contribute to the defense of the warrior.

I don't know what to do with your list, however. Some elements in it are facts, some other are opinions, it's definitely a pretty list. I could write similar ones for other classes, though. Passive stability? Check. Might as well include passive counters to hard cc, right? Passive healing? Evade on weapons? Blocks, reflects, stun breaks, endurance, gap closers? Yup, not a problem too. Each class would have its own pretty list.

One thing you mentioned, which I wouldn't care if it were changed: that Endure Pain (and similar skills in other classes) prevents the capture of point. Not sure I'd want resistance to do the same though, but why not? I'd rather they rework and add more "depth" in conditions and boons (say, split the current conditions in many types, split the boons accordingly, create/change them so that they bring a richer game play than just the current mindless spam).

You're playing a very selective game of "what mechanics i choose to forget about" and it's very easy to pick apart, almost as easy as playing Warrior.

As you're aware, my point is that the very act of picking apart is foolish, because what makes a class sustain is a combination of lots of factors. Comparing these factors separately makes no sense at all. Therefore, when you singled out high HP and armor as being unfair to other classes, I figured I'd respond. FWIW, I was not mocking the frustration one can have facing certain mechanics in that game, and I'm quite interested in the next balance patch.

[Tristan.5678]

@Crossaber.8934 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Crossaber.8934 said:1) is about right, no oppose really.2) the whole point of FC is to make use of the skill to absorb damage and strike back, as long as it is trigger, there is no reason not allow a spellbreaker to gain benefit. But it is okay to remove resistance on revenge counter to me.3) resistance uptime is fine, unless condi spam is greatly reduced, otherwise it is hurting core warrior more.4) since wvw is also pvp, it is acceptable to me

Smart players already learned how to deal with spellbreaker no matter in pvp or wvw.The FC mechanic scales up with multiple opponents. Spellbreaker is actually stronger in a 1v2 than in a 1v1 as it is easier for him to land FC and become immune to stuns, soft cc, direct and condi damage for a very long amount of time while being able to burst like a thief. He can even ignore corruptions as reapplicating resistance is super easy for him.

I found myself losing fights against SBs which I slowly outrotated by avoiding 3 and more FCs, because a few seconds before he'd go down some other player came in and triggered FC which buffed the SB that he could kill both of us.

In its current state SB is like a thief that does not need to disengeage for at least 10 seconds while keeping up its pressure. And even after that time he has the tools to pull himself out of combat. Anyone who says this is balanced seriously needs to get good at the game.

So this does sound familiar,

__

class is overpowered, need to nerf

,

_, ___

and

.I am not saying i cannot beat it, actually i am able to beat this class by

and

__

, so i don't have this L2play issue. But since to beat this class, i need to work extra hard, so please nerf it so that i can beat it without extra effort.

While you know what, my reply actually agree that it is acceptable to nerf FC a bit, i just do not agree with every point you've said.

So god damn well said .......I done hundreds of fights 1vs1 with all classes I found players who were owning me without dropping a sweat .......but Other playewrs with same class were diding liek kittens ........Nerf Warriors because I don't want to put extra effort to counter them

[Vagrant.7206]

@Tristan.5678 said:

@Crossaber.8934 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Crossaber.8934 said:1) is about right, no oppose really.2) the whole point of FC is to make use of the skill to absorb damage and strike back, as long as it is trigger, there is no reason not allow a spellbreaker to gain benefit. But it is okay to remove resistance on revenge counter to me.3) resistance uptime is fine, unless condi spam is greatly reduced, otherwise it is hurting core warrior more.4) since wvw is also pvp, it is acceptable to me

Smart players already learned how to deal with spellbreaker no matter in pvp or wvw.The FC mechanic scales up with multiple opponents. Spellbreaker is actually stronger in a 1v2 than in a 1v1 as it is easier for him to land FC and become immune to stuns, soft cc, direct and condi damage for a very long amount of time while being able to burst like a thief. He can even ignore corruptions as reapplicating resistance is super easy for him.

I found myself losing fights against SBs which I slowly outrotated by avoiding 3 and more FCs, because a few seconds before he'd go down some other player came in and triggered FC which buffed the SB that he could kill both of us.

In its current state SB is like a thief that does not need to disengeage for at least 10 seconds while keeping up its pressure. And even after that time he has the tools to pull himself out of combat. Anyone who says this is balanced seriously needs to get good at the game.

So this does sound familiar,

__

class is overpowered, need to nerf

,

_, ___

and

.I am not saying i cannot beat it, actually i am able to beat this class by

and

__

, so i don't have this L2play issue. But since to beat this class, i need to work extra hard, so please nerf it so that i can beat it without extra effort.

While you know what, my reply actually agree that it is acceptable to nerf FC a bit, i just do not agree with every point you've said.

So god kitten well said .......I done hundreds of fights 1vs1 with all classes I found players who were owning me without dropping a sweat .......but Other playewrs with same class were diding liek kittens ........Nerf Warriors because I don't want to put extra effort to counter them

I almost always hear this from people who only play warriors. Play another class. Try weaver. Try holosmith. Try mirage. See how well you do against a spellbreaker. I'll tell you right now -- you'll have to be very good, and the enemy spellbreaker has to make numerous mistakes for you to win those fights.

Take a look at the class representation from the monthly AT: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/13166/monthly-at-class-representation

The representation is actually very good at identifying which classes are overpowered and which are underpowered. Notice necro and warrior at the top? Notice ele and revenant at the bottom? That's not coincidence -- scourge and SB are the most complained about classes right now. It's not a l2play issue. If the classes were roughly balanced (or rock-paper-scissors balanced) you'd expect to see around 10 of each. That's not what we see.

[Sismis.5390]

Ah that nostalgia from the old Berserker being op.

[Grimjack.8130]

I've been hoping that they nerf the way you can stack trait, upon trait, upon trait, just to make Full Counter broken, because it seems to have no downsides.Making Full Counter not act like a burst skill was one of my thoughts that I think could cut it down a good amount, no more Adrenal Health, no more 7% damage from Burst Mastery, and no more Cleansing Ire (not that most run it anyways.)

Slow Counter, Guard Counter, and No Escape should be all Adept/Major traits as well.