Gaining Weapon Parity

Alas, I've said it before and I'll say it again, but it's met with the same kittening argument every single time...

We can't buff D/x or x/P because it will make D/P even stronger.We can't nerf D/x or x/P because it will also weaken D/D, S/P, P/P.Even if we could nerf D/P to make it equal to the other sets, the Thief will be left with no viable weapons.

Yes, those are all true. I get it. But honestly, how viable is D/P right now anyway?As it stands, Thieves play D/P for a reason.If nothing changes, Thieves will still play D/P.If D/P is buffed, Thieves will play D/P.If D/P is nerfed, Thieves will lose viability, so there won't be Thieves.

Why is D/P used so much? Because of the versatility. It has power, poison, leap finisher, blind, ingress teleport, interrupt, smoke field, and stealth on demand.What is it lacking? No block, no reflect, no blast finisher, no egress/non-combat teleport, no movement-inhibiting conditions, no boons.

If the above arguments are true, then let's find the lesser of evils...Leaving D/P alone: EvilNerfing D/P also nerfing D/x and x/P builds as well as removing Thief viability: VERY EVILSlightly buffing D/P while also significantly buffing other D/x or x/P builds and Thief viability: Evil offset by Good

How do you accomplish the least of the evils? By adding something to D/x or x/P that D/P already does (mostly), but other sets need. That is, create redundancy in D/P.

What is another problem with the Thief? Reliance on the Shortbow for mobility. Especially with the nerf to Unhindered Combatant. That one, stupid skill (#5) makes the Shortbow nearly compulsory for PvP. It doesn't matter what primary combat set you use, Shortbow is in the secondary slot if you're going to be mobile.

Take the two problems, the Thief's reliance on D/P and Shortbow, and marry them to find the solution...

Take x/P #5 (Black Powder), and make it work like Shortbow #5 (Infiltrator's Arrow). Ground targeted teleport with blind (keeping the smoke field at end of teleport). Heck, give Shortbow #5 a smoke field also so it has (area) stealth on demand as well.

Why is this solution acceptable?

1. ALL x/P sets will have access to ingress/egress/non-combat teleports.
2. ALL x/P sets will no longer require the Shortbow for mobility, allowing a second combat set.
3. ALL non-x/P sets will be able to use ANY x/P set as a secondary combat set for mobility instead of the Shortbow.
4. D/P gains ONLY egress/non-combat teleports.
5. No weapon set is nerfed at all.
6. Thief diversity and combat weapon sets only gain viability and use.

What are the downsides?

1. D/P is slightly buffed.
2. Shortbow becomes redundant for mobility.

Yes, D/P will be buffed slightly with the new teleport capability. It already has an ingress teleport with #3 (Shadow Shot). It already requires a Shortbow for the mobility, leaving no possibility for other secondary weapons sets. The main gain to D/P is not getting stuck in escape mode for 10 seconds by switching weapons... as S/P and P/P also gain. However, because the Shortbow is no longer needed for mobility, two combat sets are now possible. Thief build diversity increases.

The end result is that YOU get to choose your weapon set of choice, then you have FOUR choices of secondary mobile sets instead of only ONE. That's 32 possible mobile combinations instead of 8.

I'm reading through it all again but it seems like in short you're saying, buff d/p a little more.

Alternative:

Make Deathblossom a skill shot the same way warrior's GS3 works. First, this reduces the spamability of condi D/D as you'd have to aim and not all strikes may hit if you don't line the skill up right. Second, it adds utility to power D/D. It could be used for repositioning, dodging, and escaping better.

The next thing could be to modify Dancing Dagger to be a single target skill that when it hits, you get a rollover skill that's an instant cast shadowstep to your target that deals no damage, but blinds the opponent. Now D/D has some ability to chase, and can do a CnD-Port or BS-Port outside of having steal off cool down. The most this does is give S/D a mildly redundant ability while vastly improving the mobility of D/D, and increases defense when stunned in a 1v1 with the instant cast blind, without being spammable.

Neither of these suggestions helps D/P.

as for me it will be to much buff for d/p thieves.I think better solution will be just to bull x/d maybe?cloak and dagger isnt to viable on pvp to gain stealth or atleast isnt it to easy to use and use it efficient but is enough on pvedancing dagger also isnt to good or even viable to use for damage because it have very low damage if you want use it for spammable on range. I think about to remake this and maybe add to this gap closer like we have in d/p #3 skill whiel also changing some this death blossom because on condi thieves it will be to sick with gap close skill on same weapon

I really dont want this buff to d/p just because to be able take other 2nd weapon than sb, d/p daredevils will be more annyoing/cancerous for pvp gameplay

and about this smoke combo fiend from pistol #5...even on p/p almost never any other skills are using than just unload spam because in p/p aouto attacks isnt to good to spam in compare to dagger so you dont want to waste your initiative from range for these utility skills as they are also very costly on p/p as you very need ini to use unlad (only viable skills on p/p tbh)

@kash.9213 said:I'm reading through it all again but it seems like in short you're saying, buff d/p a little more.

What I'm saying is that by buffing D/P a little more, the entire Thief gets a significant boost as a whole.

By making the Shortbow mobility redundant by buffing D/P, S/P, and P/P, then you open the flood gates of Thief diversity.

What is THE viable Thief build now? D/P-Shortbow.What happens if you give x/P mobility? D/P drops the Shortbow and takes a second combat set without losing what make the Thief viable: mobility.Other builds also become more viable by selecting an x/P set instead of Shortbow, giving more combat ability.

Again, the current D/P-Shortbow Thief has this already. It already has everything good about D/P along with the mobility of Shortbow #5. It does so at the expense of the other weapon sets because Shortbow #5 is THAT important. If x/P gains that mobility, is a D/P Thief going to take D/P as a secondary set also? No, it will take another weapon set. If it wants to keep the ranged utility, then it can keep Shortbow. But if it wants to be more effective in combat, it will take some other weapon set such as S/D for evasion or P/P for ranged damage.

D/P will only get buffed due to being a x/P set. S/P will also gain that vertical/non-combat mobility, especially after it lost the mobility from the jump-cast bug. P/P will gain the mobility as well as the evasiveness that comes with ground-targeted teleports. All of this with the benefit of having a second combat set instead of the Shortbow.

The intent is not to be Pro-D/P. It's to be Anti-Shortbow-reliance. It is directly Pro-x/P and indirectly Pro-non-x/P.

It is to increase the combat effectiveness of a Thief build by allowing more combat weapon sets to be used while not losing viability because of lack of mobility.

For example, if these are the following combat effective percentages...D/P = 90%S/P = 80%S/D = 75%Shortbow = 10%

What we have now is D/P + Shortbow which = 100% combat effectiveness.But the Thief would be more effective if it runs with D/P + S/D which = 165%Or even S/D + S/P which = 155%.

Again, those are just example numbers, but S/D and S/P are much more combat effective than Shortbow.

This could also be solved by making the Shortbow (or even just the #5 teleport and replace the skill on Shortbow) an F3 utility instead of an actual weapon without touching any other weapon set. That would allow two combat weapon sets along with the Shortbow's mobility. That's probably the best route, actually.

@Maugetarr.6823 said:Alternative:

Make Deathblossom a skill shot the same way warrior's GS3 works. First, this reduces the spamability of condi D/D as you'd have to aim and not all strikes may hit if you don't line the skill up right. Second, it adds utility to power D/D. It could be used for repositioning, dodging, and escaping better.

The next thing could be to modify Dancing Dagger to be a single target skill that when it hits, you get a rollover skill that's an instant cast shadowstep to your target that deals no damage, but blinds the opponent. Now D/D has some ability to chase, and can do a CnD-Port or BS-Port outside of having steal off cool down. The most this does is give S/D a mildly redundant ability while vastly improving the mobility of D/D, and increases defense when stunned in a 1v1 with the instant cast blind, without being spammable.

Neither of these suggestions helps D/P.

@Vertep.2498 said:as for me it will be to much buff for d/p thieves.I think better solution will be just to bull x/d maybe?cloak and dagger isnt to viable on pvp to gain stealth or atleast isnt it to easy to use and use it efficient but is enough on pvedancing dagger also isnt to good or even viable to use for damage because it have very low damage if you want use it for spammable on range. I think about to remake this and maybe add to this gap closer like we have in d/p #3 skill whiel also changing some this death blossom because on condi thieves it will be to sick with gap close skill on same weapon

I really dont want this buff to d/p just because to be able take other 2nd weapon than sb, d/p daredevils will be more annyoing/cancerous for pvp gameplay

and about this smoke combo fiend from pistol #5...even on p/p almost never any other skills are using than just unload spam because in p/p aouto attacks isnt to good to spam in compare to dagger so you dont want to waste your initiative from range for these utility skills as they are also very costly on p/p as you very need ini to use unlad (only viable skills on p/p tbh)

Anything that can improve non-D/P weapon sets is extremely welcome.I used to run S/D-D/D, and loved it. But after using the Shortbow, the vertical mobility can't really be replaced, unfortunately. I tried Acrobatics for swiftness. I tried Signet of Shadows/Runes of the Traveler for speed increase. But it can't really compare.

As I said above, if you put a ground-targeted teleport on F3 with a range of 900 that costs 6 initiative, then all of these problems get solved without touching any weapon set including D/P.

The only reason I say put the teleport on Black Powder is because the skill is already so similar to Infiltrator's Arrow. Both are #5 skills, both cost 6 initiative, both have a range of 900, both blind in a 120 radius. For all I care, put the ground-targeted teleport on x/D. Let's just give sustained non-combat/vertical mobility to the Thief outside of the Shortbow. Shadowstep is great, but it's cooldown is too long to be used for basic map traversal.

so basically you want the shortbow mobility without the shortbow.i play mostly without shortbow for quite a while now mainly WvW . i equip the bow shortly out of combat to use some shortcuts or to clear siege with cluster bomb. but i dont need it infight so i mostly dont use it. it is a choise to give up shortbow, i used to run d/p + p/p prior to pof cause of a suprise range burst and now running d/p next to rifle gives me the option to permanently stealth on DE without the need to drop SE and take more deceptions.but running with shortbow is also a choice.i fear a baseline shortbow mobility will cause other nerfs to thief to keep it in 'balance'. and i dont want nerfs to balance QoL changes cause thats what it is for me, might be diffrent in other game modes.

@MUDse.7623 said:so basically you want the shortbow mobility without the shortbow.

Yes, that's basically the goal.

@MUDse.7623 said:i fear a baseline shortbow mobility will cause other nerfs to thief to keep it in 'balance'. and i dont want nerfs to balance QoL changes cause thats what it is for me, might be diffrent in other game modes.

I understand the fear of nerfs for such a dramatic change. Unfortunately, the Shortbow is basically required in PvP because mobility is the only reason Thieves exist in that mode. That leaves them extremely handicapped and pigeonholed as far as combat builds and capability go.

Knowing Anet, they will nerf the Thief anyway, sadly. If they did actually implemented this change, it would be in order to balance the Thief, however. It makes no difference in PvE (mounts and such), and as you said, it's a QoL change for WvW because you can switch weapons on the fly. But in PvP, it would be game-changing (whether it's x/P #5 or an F3 utility). It wouldn't make the Thief hit any harder or any run any faster than it can now, but it would allow more sustainability and combat versatility. Sustainability is what the Thief needs, and versatility is what the Thief is all about.

What if we just buffed P/D instead

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:so basically you want the shortbow mobility without the shortbow.

@MUDse.7623 said:i fear a baseline shortbow mobility will cause other nerfs to thief to keep it in 'balance'. and i dont want nerfs to balance QoL changes cause thats what it is for me, might be diffrent in other game modes.

you do chose the bow cause the mobility is part of your job.

or lets say we get that f3, then i have already an idea for f4:on DE i use d/p mainly for stealth and some backstab on squishies. i can now say yes i need d/p for perma stealth without having to give up SE and another utility + heal and therefor i want an f4 that will give me the amount of stealth uptime for initative that BP+HS does. this will make for less counter play and i can be more versitilemaybe now an f5 for unblockable dmg + boon steal to be even more versatile.

you see were thats leading to? none of that would make the thief 'hit harder or run any faster than it can now, but it would allow more sustainability and combat versatility'but the versatility would be too strong.you want more sustainability ? drop the shortbow - maybe your team will drop you too for somemore that has even more sustainor take the bow and all the superior vertical mobility and provide something unique, that no other class can replace you with.( at least thats what it was before PoF dunno about now - mesmers look like they are fast)

1. Anet will never buff thieves unless it is some unused weapon set that nobody will use after buff anyway due to design weakness or/and thieves completely disappear from certain area of the game (e.g. s1/s2)
2. people don't understand one thing. Different weapon sets are meant for different things. D/P is used a lot because it is an utility+ some damage set which is mostly suited for decap/+1 pet playstyle. It does lack damage capability of other sets or mobility or other aspects. It is the reason why it is never used in pve for example - you don't really need utility that d/p offers in pve. When people wanted more selfish playstyle (and less team oriented) they ran staff or s/d (still do). Now in my opinion, the main problem why other sets are not used as much is becausea) Anet forces decap/+1 role on thieves by all means (see all the nerfs and trait/skill changes)b) pvp is about teamplay (your chances to win the game increase if you play as a team, simple as it is)c) other profs got so powercreeped over the time (see june patch, HOT, POF) that other thief weaponsets became rather weak and inadequate to deal with everything other classes offer. Think about it, if we were back in say hambow meta D/D for example wouldn't be have such issues as it is now because every class has so many boons/invuls/blocks etc. that straight forward damage like from d/d simply doesn't cut it anymore.

Personally i would prefer if Anet nerfed all HoT/PoF specs equally so we would be back to the times when CD management, timing etc. mattered and didn't promote mindless spam. Since it probably wouldn't happen i would focus on redesigning spells that are unique only to the weapon set (see db) and make new spec that would give thief different role (e.g. support).@all thieves that don't play d/p my message is: you have to realize that every weaponset is not meant to do the same thing. Staff was designed for frontal high (aoe) damage, d/d for high single target high dmg, d/p for utility + some damage support, s/d as dueler set vs targets with high boon uptime (sup bruisers) etc. Surely some of them could see some love but you cannot expect say d/d to do same thing as d/p, that is not what the set is meant for.

Was this just copy/pasted from years ago?

@MUDse.7623 said:you do chose the bow cause the mobility is part of your job.

or lets say we get that f3, then i have already an idea for f4:on DE i use d/p mainly for stealth and some backstab on squishies. i can now say yes i need d/p for perma stealth without having to give up SE and another utility + heal and therefor i want an f4 that will give me the amount of stealth uptime for initative that BP+HS does. this will make for less counter play and i can be more versitilemaybe now an f5 for unblockable dmg + boon steal to be even more versatile.

you see were thats leading to? none of that would make the thief 'hit harder or run any faster than it can now, but it would allow more sustainability and combat versatility'but the versatility would be too strong.you want more sustainability ? drop the shortbow - maybe your team will drop you too for somemore that has even more sustainor take the bow and all the superior vertical mobility and provide something unique, that no other class can replace you with.( at least thats what it was before PoF dunno about now - mesmers look like they are fast)

Indeed, I can see where buff upon buff would lead to. I'm not saying make the Thief the "win button." I'm saying give it more viable diversity. Isn't that what we've been asking for for years?

My suggestion centers around the one thing that makes the Thief viable in PvP: mobility. That is all.

The Thief is outclassed in combat. It's outclassed in both offense and defense. Mobility is the only reason whatsoever to take a Thief in PvP. Without Shortbow, the Thief does not have that mobility. Therefore, with no Shortbow, there is no Thief.

Yes, it's a choice. It's a choice because it's a forced choice. That doesn't mean it must or should be a forced choice.

As for balance, I don't see universal mobility tipping the scales to make the Thief so great. It would only help to balance it with other professions. If, say, a D/P-S/D Thief were so lethal/sustainable that it can overpower/outlast other professions, then we would see more of them now even without the mobility. But we don't because they can't compete in combat. And without mobility, there's no reason to take a second-class fighter.

As for other improvements to Thief, there is always room for discussion. Yes, I've made suggestions about making stealth more universal, making the Thief less reliant on D/P. I've made suggestions for making strikes unblockable through the Critical Strikes traitline. I've made suggestions about removing the weapon-swap delay for Thieves or to give each weapon set its own initiative pool. There are MANY possible ways to improve the Thief (having unique mechanics) without breaking it. However, this particular discussion is about making the weapon sets more equal or, at least, to give them more viable opportunities.

This isn't about breaking the Thief or making it superior. It's about giving it viable diversity in a combat-centered gametype. It's not about giving it new abilities, it's about giving its one viable ability redundancy.

The bottom line is that if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Thieves are still going to be forced into D/P-Shortbow in PvP. Thieves still won't be able to survive team fights, hold a point, or maintain pressure in 1v1.

The Thief needs a LOT of improvements, this is just one of them. It's similar to traitline parity. Why must a Thief be forced to "choose" Shortbow and Trickery? Yes, it's a choice, but it's not really a choice. It's poor design. And it needs to be fixed.

@Cynz.9437 said:

1. Anet will never buff thieves unless it is some unused weapon set that nobody will use after buff anyway due to design weakness or/and thieves completely disappear from certain area of the game (e.g. s1/s2)

Indeed, I fear that is the truth.

@Cynz.9437 said:@all thieves that don't play d/p my message is: you have to realize that every weaponset is not meant to do the same thing. Staff was designed for frontal high (aoe) damage, d/d for high single target high dmg, d/p for utility + some damage support, s/d as dueler set vs targets with high boon uptime (sup bruisers) etc. Surely some of them could see some love but you cannot expect say d/d to do same thing as d/p, that is not what the set is meant for.

That is also true. That's why I wish the Thief had more access to vertical mobility outside of Shortbow. Then it may be useful as more than just a "+1/decap pet" as you say.

A mobile D/P-S/D Thief may still not be able to 1v1 on point, but it would stand a better chance than a Thief with only D/P or S/D... while maintaining the ability to run and decap when needed.

The more I think about it, the worse it seems. To put the one weapon-based user-aimed teleport skill on a two-handed "tool" (let's face it, the Shortbow is more of a tool than a weapon) was either an oversight that hasn't been fixed or a slap in the face. At least put it on a one-handed weapon so we can have some choice of how to build. The off-hand Pistol is also more of a tool, but at least we can use it with three different main-hand weapons.

I don't know, maybe removing the weapon-swap delay or just refilling the initiative pool on weapon swap wouldn't be so controversial, but still help the Thief fight and survive enough to be a threat... even if we are stuck with the Shortbow. It may not help weapon-diversity, but it would at least be something. But alas, the entire Thief balance is so heavily intertwined with weapon skills, it can't be achieved properly without changing the entire profession. Still, something like the weapon-swap delay should be simple enough to remove without causing too much of a problem. The main problem would come if they ever wanted to add it back. But Anet's never cared about upsetting Thieves before (see 1-second Backstab delay, removal of Ricochet).