LB 4 improvement

LB is a strong weapon but because of this it is used very often from new players. Most often it occurs that LB 4 will be used of CD and it shoots the target out of melee range for otger players while the ranger is sitting waaay back behind them.My proposal is simple.At close range point blank shot should trigger the knockback with its current distance it has.At mid and long range it should just knock down. This would make LB rangers less infuriating for other players and you cant accidently shoot a target out of range.

This would just be a nice QoL change for rangers, their reputation and for other players playing together with LB rangers.

Any opinions?

Heck no. that knock back is essential for PVP/wvw. PVP for decaps and keeping people at distance especially since lbs damage drops of at close range.

Sides it's satisfing as fuck to use. Just tell the new players hey don't that, just like Nero's will fear people out aoes and guards will Sheild bubble

@Eleazar.9478 said:Heck no. that knock back is essential for PVP/wvw. PVP for decaps and keeping people at distance especially since lbs damage drops of at close range.

Sides it's satisfing as kitten to use. Just tell the new players hey don't that, just like Nero's will fear people out aoes and guards will Sheild bubble

They could make it a split between PvE and PvP.I have seen veteran players that just shoot this skill on mobs away from melee players.Also the knockback would stay at minimum range witch is still 500 range.

The issue I see with that is they said they can't/won't change the functionality of the skill for different game times, they can only split the dps numbers/CDs among different game modes

@Eleazar.9478 said:The issue I see with that is they said they can't/won't change the functionality of the skill for different game times, they can only split the dps numbers/CDs among different game modes

Well we havent seen a change in this direction thats true. But maybe it could be techbically possible.They could just reduce the knockback distance for mid to long range to minimal range, so it has no impact on melee range for other players.

@Eleazar.9478 said:The issue I see with that is they said they can't/won't change the functionality of the skill for different game times, they can only split the dps numbers/CDs among different game modes

Indeed they said it on the thief subforum I think. They are dead against fonctionnality change in the split balance, they are ok with numbers change but no fonctionnality.

This doesn't change that I agree with the OP idea, a knockdown in PvE instead of a knockback would be a very good change. In PvP/WvW thought it's fine as it is and it would even be a bad thing if they were to change it.

The fact is new player will not always new in a game. They will learn and adapt, plain and sample. Who don’t push skill on CD when they were flesh in game anyway.

@Crossaber.8934 said:The fact is new player will not always new in a game. They will learn and adapt, plain and sample. Who don’t push skill on CD when they were flesh in game anyway.

As i said i have seen veteran players with over 12K achievemnt points that still do this.

Indeed they said it on the thief subforum I think. They are dead against fonctionnality change in the split balance, they are ok with numbers change but no fonctionnality.

Interesting to know.But as i said they can just basically nulify the push distance in mid and long range to make it more PvE friendly.

Here is the quote:

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:... (snip)2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

-SnB

@Dadnir.5038 said:Here is the quote:

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:... (snip)

2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?

First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

-SnB

Thx for the source. Interesting to know.

I'll be honest here, I catch myself pressing #4 quite a few times when I shouldn't. I'm pretty fresh on ranger, but still. For some reason this skill is so hard not to press and idk why. I think I'm probably wishing for another usefull skill on LB to fill the space between CDs. #3 is completely useless in PvE as far as I've seen so far.

Oh good lord no, please don't change LB4. It's probably my favourite skill in the game. :0

~ Kovu

ANet could just as easily add breakbars to every enemy (in which breaking generates that "stun state").

It's not like rangers are the only class with CC that causes movement (mesmer gs5, engineer rifle 4 and big ol bomb, and etc etc etc).

Why put out a convoluted fix to an extremely specific gameplay scenario that doesn't actually keep that scenario from occurring when you could apply a blanket fix to every situation in which that situation could occur?

Edit: I wanted to make this edit just to say I don't mean to come off as rude or hostile if this is carrying any tone of the sort. I'm not trying to undermine the OP or any ideas suggested or dismiss the issue if it seemed I did. I'm just saying easier solutions exist, and that we don't need more complexity when less would be a better solution, if that makes sense. After all, the more exceptions you make to a rule, the more it proves the rule itself is what needs the changes.

@jcbroe.4329 said:ANet could just as easily add breakbars to every enemy (in which breaking generates that "stun state").

It's not like rangers are the only class with CC that causes movement (mesmer gs5, engineer rifle 4 and big ol bomb, and etc etc etc).

Why put out a convoluted fix to an extremely specific gameplay scenario that doesn't actually keep that scenario from occurring when you could apply a blanket fix to every situation in which that situation could occur?^ Please make it happen.

@serialkicker.5274 said:I'll be honest here, I catch myself pressing #4 quite a few times when I shouldn't. I'm pretty fresh on ranger, but still. For some reason this skill is so hard not to press and idk why. I think I'm probably wishing for another usefull skill on LB to fill the space between CDs. #3 is completely useless in PvE as far as I've seen so far.

Learn how to play and don't complain about skills. Even in PVE if you are solo or targeted by a Veteran/legendary mob/boss, #3 is your escape/lose agro etc ... don't talk nonsense that #3 is useless in PVE. In the same time in sPVP and W3 is a very powerful skill for us, rangers!

@InsaneQR.7412 said:LB is a strong weapon but because of this it is used very often from new players. Most often it occurs that LB 4 will be used of CD and it shoots the target out of melee range for otger players while the ranger is sitting waaay back behind them.My proposal is simple.At close range point blank shot should trigger the knockback with its current distance it has.At mid and long range it should just knock down. This would make LB rangers less infuriating for other players and you cant accidently shoot a target out of range.@InsaneQR.7412 said:Well we havent seen a change in this direction thats true. But maybe it could be techbically possible.They could just reduce the knockback distance for mid to long range to minimal range, so it has no impact on melee range for other players.

I didn't see till now something more stupid than this. Do you mind to tell us what class do you play? Please?!Do you realise that you ask something like: delete all skills of necro, mesmer, guardian, engi, warrior etc which causes movement of mobs?! If some (even they are many) players didn't know how to use proper a skill, doesn't mean Anet should change it !I'm waiting to tell use what class do you play.Thank you!

@serialkicker.5274 said:I'll be honest here, I catch myself pressing #4 quite a few times when I shouldn't. I'm pretty fresh on ranger, but still. For some reason this skill is so hard not to press and idk why. I think I'm probably wishing for another usefull skill on LB to fill the space between CDs. #3 is completely useless in PvE as far as I've seen so far.

I'm pretty sure you use it like other use it without thinking because it's an instant cast and it feel good to have a reactive skill on a weapon full of channeled skill or casted skills.

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:I didn't see till now something more stupid than this. Do you mind to tell us what class do you play? Please?!Do you realise that you ask something like: delete all skills of necro, mesmer, guardian, engi, warrior etc which causes movement of mobs?! If some (even they are many) players didn't know how to use proper a skill, doesn't mean Anet should change it !I'm waiting to tell use what class do you play.Thank you!

lol... I'm pretty sure I've seen InsaneQR active on the ranger's subforum since the early days of gw2. He probably got way more hours played on it's ranger than you have on yours.

LB#4 have been a hot topic that help to warm up the long winter night since the first year of the game. Some hope that it's transformed into a knockdown while other are dead against this. Originally, the ranger had a very bad reputation in dungeon due to this skill and while everyone agreed that it shouldn't be used in group play and only bad player use it, the reality is that up to now a large part of the ranger community still abuse this skill. Even if they want to say that it's the mesmer that did it.

@Dadnir.5038 said:lol... I'm pretty sure I've seen InsaneQR active on the ranger's subforum since the early days of gw2. He probably got way more hours played on it's ranger than you have on yours.

I play ranger since beta, so I don't think he played more hours than me, even this is not relevant. Maybe he played more on PVE , and again this is not relevent either. I play most of the time in wvw and sPVP, and since the begining #4 was, is and will be one of the best thing on LB.When a player is playing only PVE content and he want to change something on his class because only in PVE that things (in his POV) didn't work properly, means nothing.The real chalange in this game (and not only in this one) is Player vs Player, because always you will face a new enemy with new skills, new approaching to the fight etc.And last thing ... when an old player complain and want to change a skill ONLY because there are other players who don't know or don't use it properly, then please let me tell you that that player is not a good one.

LB#4 have been a hot topic that help to warm up the long winter night since the first year of the game. Some hope that it's transformed into a knockdown while other are dead against this. Originally, the ranger had a very bad reputation in dungeon due to this skill and while everyone agreed that it shouldn't be used in group play and only bad player use it, the reality is that up to now a large part of the ranger community still abuse this skill. Even if they want to say that it's the mesmer that did it.

I played Fractals, Dungeons, Raids and no one complain about ranger. Also I don't know any good ranger who want to change #4 knockback into knockdown. Maybe only noob players who don't know how to play and they use it by mistake or not, every time this skill. My advise, unbid that skill, so next time when you push it by mistake nothing will happen ;)

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:I played Fractals, Dungeons, Raids and no one complain about ranger. Also I don't know any good ranger who want to change #4 knockback into knockdown. Maybe only noob players who don't know how to play and they use it by mistake or not, every time this skill. My advise, unbid that skill, so next time when you push it by mistake nothing will happen ;)

You either have a very short memory or you absolutely don't know what your talking about. Rangers in the vanilla game suffered plenty of complaint be it for fractal or dungeon, if you deny it, it can only mean that you've played 1-2 month after the beta and waited until HoT to play the game again. Unbiding the skill is not a solution because camping longbow isn't very smart either and using your #4 weapon skill on your other weapon set might also be usefull.

Now, I've got a good story for you. The story of the only guy I ended up kicking out of a dungeon. Our group specifically asked him not to use this skill at all. He claimed that he was an experimented player (and he was certainly), that he had done plenty of dungeon run (and that was probably right) and he also swore not to use this skill, saying like you that only "noob" use it. At this point of the story you probably already know what happened right? At that time, boss without their defiance stack were affected by knockback. So the KB happened one time and we let it go, guessing a mistake. Then it happened a second time and a 3rd... We started to ask him politely to stop using the skill. We gave him 3 vocals and written warnings. And then we kicked him.

The reality is that good or bad, noob or experimented, longbow ranger tend to put off their brain and use without thinking this skill. The worst point is that in PvE (at least), a knockback is a loss of dps for a ranger because it put your foe far away from your pet which is not supposed to be here for cosmetic. I won't say that I'm a "good" ranger player. I've played the profession for a long time and I'm a fervent hater of the knockback. I rarely use it in PvE, simply there is no point for a single target knockback in this gamemode (maybe in some very few niche fight). I believe that a 2 second knockdown in PvE would be way more usefull than all the knockback of this skill. Although, like I said, the knockback is a good thing in PvP/WvW but in PvE, it's a waste and a meaningless source of drama 98% of the time.

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:The real chalange in this game (and not only in this one) is Player vs Player, because always you will face a new enemy with new skills, new approaching to the fight etc.And last thing ... when an old player complain and want to change a skill ONLY because there are other players who don't know or don't use it properly, then please let me tell you that that player is not a good one.

This is a very conceited point of view. You see this suggestion as a selfish wish from an "old" player that you suppose don't use the skill properly when this player most likely see this suggestion as a way to improve the global mood of all the players in a gamemode that you seem to despise. And... your sentence make no sense... why would this make this "old" player "not a good one" to suggest such a thing? Do you expect that "good player" will teach "bad" players how to avoid using a skill and why, when trying to do it proved to be a waste of time this last 5 years? Do you expect this player to say: "Oh it's ok, a bit bothersome but they will learn with time that what they do is not kind for melee player or for their pet"? Do you expect such behavior to improve the game?

You are aware that the elementalist have a similar skill on the staff, a skill with a cast time. Well, elementalist quickly hate this skill because there is a cast time and since they hate it they don't use it unless they are forced to. The "old" player could have suggested a cast time on this skill instead. I'm pretty sure it would have had the desired effect as well as quite a stir in this subforum. The point is that, at least in PvE, a knockdown benefit the ranger way more than a knockback and the bonus of such a change would also soothe quite a lot of drama and headaches in this gamemode. There is barely any drawback in such a change.

..........

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@serialkicker.5274 said:I'll be honest here, I catch myself pressing #4 quite a few times when I shouldn't. I'm pretty fresh on ranger, but still. For some reason this skill is so hard not to press and idk why. I think I'm probably wishing for another usefull skill on LB to fill the space between CDs. #3 is completely useless in PvE as far as I've seen so far.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:LB is a strong weapon but because of this it is used very often from new players. Most often it occurs that LB 4 will be used of CD and it shoots the target out of melee range for otger players while the ranger is sitting waaay back behind them.My proposal is simple.At close range point blank shot should trigger the knockback with its current distance it has.At mid and long range it should just knock down. This would make LB rangers less infuriating for other players and you cant accidently shoot a target out of range.@InsaneQR.7412 said:Well we havent seen a change in this direction thats true. But maybe it could be techbically possible.They could just reduce the knockback distance for mid to long range to minimal range, so it has no impact on melee range for other players.

I personally play ever profession in the game and have a ranger main pretty much since launch (But i am active on the forums since early 2013). I do not complain how i use this skill, i complain how newbies use it and distrubt many melee fights because of this.I do not want this change for PvP, i can underatand how useful it is to fling somebody over an edge/cliff. This is more a PvE related request.They could tweak the push distances, so pointblank it will push targets far away from you so you are kept safe. But in mid and long range it will not push them outside of melee range of other players if they are on top of the corresponding target.Its not a mandatory change i would demand, but rather a nice QoL change for PvE play environment and especially saving new players from veterans rage.I have seen this on mesmers too, but there it isnt as annoying because rangers can trigger LB4 on 1500 range, so they annoy other players with using this skill while shooting from the backlines. Most of the other classes with pushes use them in melee range and not with projectile that can fly over 1500 range and is used aggressively most if the time. Guardians shield 5 or mesmer GS 5 is more on the defensive site to gain distance and isnt used as frequent or aggresive as LB4 on ranger.There shouldnt be any insentive in this topic to questions someones experience in the game just because they question a specific design choice and would like to here other opinions on this specific design. Stay constructive and give reasonable arguments instead.

@Halan.8951 said:I've read about "bad" rangers and LB4 on forums MUCH more times than actually seen it in game... Looks like this case is overblown.

I see it pretty much everyday lately. As i said its not a "I demand this" topic.Its actually more like a : "does anyone have a decent solution to improve this" topic.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:LB is a strong weapon but because of this it is used very often from new players. Most often it occurs that LB 4 will be used of CD and it shoots the target out of melee range for otger players while the ranger is sitting waaay back behind them.My proposal is simple.At close range point blank shot should trigger the knockback with its current distance it has.At mid and long range it should just knock down. This would make LB rangers less infuriating for other players and you cant accidently shoot a target out of range.@InsaneQR.7412 said:Well we havent seen a change in this direction thats true. But maybe it could be techbically possible.They could just reduce the knockback distance for mid to long range to minimal range, so it has no impact on melee range for other players.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Halan.8951 said:I've read about "bad" rangers and LB4 on forums MUCH more times than actually seen it in game... Looks like this case is overblown.

Yes, the solution is those rangers to try hard and train more. Cmon ... is not a bug, is not a broken skill. If now, after 6 years we begin to ask Anet to change a skill ONLY because some players don't know HOW, WHEN and WHERE to use it, then we are the problem. We have so many bugs/things who should be fixed on new specialization, sync between trait lines, stances, pets who still after so many years didn't synergyse properly with our skills etc.

LB4 is l2p for newbies issue, and not skill issue. I think ranger with enough experience will know how and when to use it. And in some of pve content like fractal subject 6, it has its benefit.

So yeah it is a no for me.

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Halan.8951 said:I've read about "bad" rangers and LB4 on forums MUCH more times than actually seen it in game... Looks like this case is overblown.

Thats a point. But as i said this is not a demmanding topic. Rather something that looks for a decent solution. I actually doubt they will fidle with working skills except they are underperforming and LB4 isnt, its just infuriating and gives ranger the noob reputation it always had.

InsaneQR , I understand your POV regarding PVE issue, but I don't want because of this (in my opinion is not the skill the problem but the players and this doesn't mean Anet should change it) Anet ,who already said they can't (or it is too hard) to change mechanic for a skill to be different in PVE and PVP, to screw totaly this skill.Like I said I played a lot of PVE too, and when I play solo in open world PVE, I like this skill #4 to be like it is now, for me it is useful to knockback in all 3 ranges.Once again I don't want Anet to make a change and broke the skill just because some rangers can't stop to hit #4 all the time.Btw #4 is the only skill on LB who has only 1200 range.

Yeah i thought tgey changed it, but i was actually too lazy to look it up. You still push them back for 400 units and because arrows fly in an arc you actually have more than 1200 range on it, so they got pushed definetly out of range.I personally am not a big fan of LB but this is rather because of the 5 channel that roots you.LB4 was just bugging me, because everyone under 100 hours gametime has no clue when to use it and its irritating every player in melee range. I probably still have to continue helping new players and start with: Never use LB4 when other players are in melee range.