Toughness: Questioning its value — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Toughness: Questioning its value

trying to choose between these 2 builds

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8Ar5GM8OC5x357+dJAUAWbDYC-j1BBQBlUJIAeCA9RHAGV+hQ1fyjmgis/AA-w

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8AbJAUAWbN3gh3RIP+Of3vDYC-jFCBABZq+DAPBguU61nOgtUGEpSwi2fIPNBAA-w

but the big question i'm having is...does toughness work?
https://i.imgur.com/Tik2NSg.jpg

i got a ton of toughness here...and yet i take a 9.5k dmg hit with 3.5k toughness
which makes me question if toughness works...or is worth having at all. do crits ignore or reduce armor? does it only reduce dmg by so much?

and how did this do so much dmg....its an insane ammount...

Comments

  • akenoyuki.8210akenoyuki.8210 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2018

    Toughness did work on the direct damage
    (Direct damage = Damage inflicted by skills and/or traits directly, can crit, and is mitigated by the target's armor.)

    Basically this is the calculation:
    Damage you received = Enemy's Weapon strength * Enemy's Power * Enemy's skill-specific coefficient / Your Armor

    • AFAIK, critical hit increase direct damage, but it is not ignoring armor
    • Did you have vulnerability on you? Vulnerability increases condition damage and direct damage you received

    More on here:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughness
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage#Direct_damage

    What kind of class / what skill do you get attacked with by the way? (Skill have a unique coefficient used to calculate damage inflicted)

  • arenta.2953arenta.2953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2018

    @akenoyuki.8210 said:
    Toughness did work on the direct damage
    (Direct damage = Damage inflicted by skills and/or traits directly, can crit, and is mitigated by the target's armor.)

    Basically this is the calculation:
    Damage you received = Enemy's Weapon strength * Enemy's Power * Enemy's skill-specific coefficient / Your Armor

    Did you have vulnerability on you? Vulnerability increases condition damage and direct damage you received

    More on here:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughness
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage#Direct_damage

    What kind of class / what skill do you get attacked with by the way? (Skill have a unique coefficient used to calculate damage inflicted)

    no vulnerability, had just used the Natural healing skill.

    got hit by this
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wastrel's_Ruin

    which has a coefficient of 1.5
    plus 100% more dmg.

    but no matter how much i use the armor formula. i can't understand just how he got enough attack power/strength to hit a 3.5k armor warrior for 9.5k dmg

    assuming they have 2700 power. 1030 dagger. the 1.5x2 coeficient. that would only do 3k
    and then a crit for say 225%...and its still only 6750

  • akenoyuki.8210akenoyuki.8210 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2018

    Hmm... Maybe there's more to it
    I see you're on WvW mode, did you perhaps got attacked near enemy castle / keep?
    I rarely go to WvW so I'm not really sure, but there are some boon you get if you're near the castle / keep such as the guild objective aura and presence of the keep right?

    Also since it is WvW, did your enemy have 25 might, bloodlust, or something like that too?
    I'm afraid there's a lot of unknown variable on this..

  • Naix.8156Naix.8156 Member ✭✭

    @arenta.2953 said:
    trying to choose between these 2 builds

    http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8Ar5GM8OC5x357+dJAUAWbDYC-j1BBQBlUJIAeCA9RHAGV+hQ1fyjmgis/AA-w

    http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8AbJAUAWbN3gh3RIP+Of3vDYC-jFCBABZq+DAPBguU61nOgtUGEpSwi2fIPNBAA-w

    but the big question i'm having is...does toughness work?
    https://i.imgur.com/Tik2NSg.jpg

    i got a ton of toughness here...and yet i take a 9.5k dmg hit with 3.5k toughness
    which makes me question if toughness works...or is worth having at all. do crits ignore or reduce armor? does it only reduce dmg by so much?

    and how did this do so much dmg....its an insane ammount...

    Warriors have a few traits that conditionally buff toughness:
    • Thick Skin - +180 toughness when above 75% hp
    • Spiked Armor - +150 toughness when you have retaliation. Gain 5s of retaliation when you block or are hit by a crit. --> You likely didn't have retaliation as a buff as your combat log shows you getting hit by necros shades, well of corruption and loss aversion.
    • Your screen shot is at a keep and you have the Presence of the Keep buff on you which is giving you +100 toughness (also +100 to power, precision, vitality stats).
    --> Based on the above, subtract 280 toughness from the value shown in the display window in the screen shot

    You don't know how buffed the warrior was (i.e. might stacks on him, bloodlust sigil stacks, stacks of Insight, vulnerability on you).

    Investing in toughness suffers diminishing returns: for each additional point of toughness you add to your build you get incrementally less and less reduction in damage. Direct damage continues to scale in a linear manner. The system was setup like this likely as a way to prevent a situation where a player could create an unkillable tank in pvp. (Sidenote: HoT especially took a massive dump on this system by adding flat percentage damage reduction modifiers and food to the game). Wastrel's Ruin has a +100% damage modifier if it hit you and you aren't using a skill at the time. If you were using a skill at the time he hit you, he would have crit you for 4,737 damage instead of 9,475.

    TLDR:
    • Stacking toughness is not the best way to go
    • The 9,475 damage hit you took is legit

  • arenta.2953arenta.2953 Member ✭✭✭

    @akenoyuki.8210 said:
    Hmm... Maybe there's more to it
    I see you're on WvW mode, did you perhaps got attacked near enemy castle / keep?
    I rarely go to WvW so I'm not really sure, but there are some boon you get if you're near the castle / keep such as the guild objective aura and presence of the keep right?

    you are correct, the buff gives +100 to all stats.

    but even that isn't enough to explain it

    plus, this was by a tier 1 supply camp.

  • arenta.2953arenta.2953 Member ✭✭✭

    @Naix.8156 said:

    @arenta.2953 said:
    trying to choose between these 2 builds

    http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8Ar5GM8OC5x357+dJAUAWbDYC-j1BBQBlUJIAeCA9RHAGV+hQ1fyjmgis/AA-w

    http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8AbJAUAWbN3gh3RIP+Of3vDYC-jFCBABZq+DAPBguU61nOgtUGEpSwi2fIPNBAA-w

    but the big question i'm having is...does toughness work?
    https://i.imgur.com/Tik2NSg.jpg

    i got a ton of toughness here...and yet i take a 9.5k dmg hit with 3.5k toughness
    which makes me question if toughness works...or is worth having at all. do crits ignore or reduce armor? does it only reduce dmg by so much?

    and how did this do so much dmg....its an insane ammount...

    Warriors have a few traits that conditionally buff toughness:
    • Thick Skin - +180 toughness when above 75% hp
    • Spiked Armor - +150 toughness when you have retaliation. Gain 5s of retaliation when you block or are hit by a crit. --> You likely didn't have retaliation as a buff as your combat log shows you getting hit by necros shades, well of corruption and loss aversion.
    • Your screen shot is at a keep and you have the Presence of the Keep buff on you which is giving you +100 toughness (also +100 to power, precision, vitality stats).
    --> Based on the above, subtract 280 toughness from the value shown in the display window in the screen shot

    You don't know how buffed the warrior was (i.e. might stacks on him, bloodlust sigil stacks, stacks of Insight, vulnerability on you).

    Investing in toughness suffers diminishing returns: for each additional point of toughness you add to your build you get incrementally less and less reduction in damage. Direct damage continues to scale in a linear manner. The system was setup like this likely as a way to prevent a situation where a player could create an unkillable tank in pvp. (Sidenote: HoT especially took a massive dump on this system by adding flat percentage damage reduction modifiers and food to the game). Wastrel's Ruin has a +100% damage modifier if it hit you and you aren't using a skill at the time. If you were using a skill at the time he hit you, he would have crit you for 4,737 damage instead of 9,475.

    TLDR:
    • Stacking toughness is not the best way to go
    • The 9,475 damage hit you took is legit

    ah..diminishing returns
    is there a recommended armor level its suggested to stop at

  • Naix.8156Naix.8156 Member ✭✭

    @arenta.2953 said:
    but no matter how much i use the armor formula. i can't understand just how he got enough attack power/strength to hit a 3.5k armor warrior for 9.5k dmg

    assuming they have 2700 power. 1030 dagger. the 1.5x2 coeficient. that would only do 3k
    and then a crit for say 225%...and its still only 6750

    You haven't taken into account damage bonus and reduction modifiers.

    If the guy was in zerk gear, scholars runes, food, etc the power value would be around 4100 at the top end; so likely you've underestimated the power value.

  • Naix.8156Naix.8156 Member ✭✭

    @arenta.2953 said:
    ah..diminishing returns
    is there a recommended armor level its suggested to stop at

    There isn't a set number to stop at, no. In general its best, in all areas of the game not just in wvw, to use other means to mitigate or avoid damage instead of just stats. Some examples: blocks, evades, invulnerability, immunities, protection boon (-33% inc dmg), using kiting/line-of-siting, etc. Guild Wars 2 has an active combat system so its (generally speaking - not to get into power creep and passives from the expansions) best to use active abilities to avoid the damage in the first place.

    If you join a wvw guild focused guild they would be able to help you with your build and explain stuff in comms (discord, ts, etc) to help you out.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @arenta.2953 said:

    @akenoyuki.8210 said:
    Toughness did work on the direct damage
    (Direct damage = Damage inflicted by skills and/or traits directly, can crit, and is mitigated by the target's armor.)

    Basically this is the calculation:
    Damage you received = Enemy's Weapon strength * Enemy's Power * Enemy's skill-specific coefficient / Your Armor

    Did you have vulnerability on you? Vulnerability increases condition damage and direct damage you received

    More on here:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughness
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage#Direct_damage

    What kind of class / what skill do you get attacked with by the way? (Skill have a unique coefficient used to calculate damage inflicted)

    no vulnerability, had just used the Natural healing skill.

    got hit by this
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wastrel's_Ruin

    which has a coefficient of 1.5
    plus 100% more dmg.

    but no matter how much i use the armor formula. i can't understand just how he got enough attack power/strength to hit a 3.5k armor warrior for 9.5k dmg

    assuming they have 2700 power. 1030 dagger. the 1.5x2 coeficient. that would only do 3k
    and then a crit for say 225%...and its still only 6750

    That isn't even the top end damage :p

    970(lowest roll for weapon strength) * 1.5(coeff) * 3500(roughly 2500 base from berserker stat + 1000 for 25 stacks of might) / 3500 * 2.32(critical damage base + berserker stat+ Pure Strike ) * 2(100% more damage) 1.05(sigil of force)1.33(peak performance) = 9428

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