Are thieves viable anymore in pvp help me out

So obviously i'm no expert with the thief class and obviously i have much to learn, but with the nerfs i have many questions

Does this effect other specs? the whole stealth thing how does it effect daredevil?

Is S/D still viable?

The Silent Scope thing only affects rifle deadeyes. Whether or not something is viable heavily depends on the weapon set. Most sets are "viable" to some degree although they're generally outclassed by other things. Dont know about P/D but P/P is compleatly unviable in any PvP based inviroment.

S/D is the best build atm, and good fit in most teams (please go power, condi daredevil has too many horrible matchups)One of the few core builds that works to perfection.Of course you primary role is decap and +1. You have a couple of favorable matchups in meta but going 1v1 takes too long - burst is too low - most of the time it's better to just threaten and then go elsewere.

@Arioch.4810 said:S/D is the best build atm, and good fit in most teams (please go power, condi daredevil has too many horrible matchups)One of the few core builds that works to perfection.Of course you primary role is decap and +1. You have a couple of favorable matchups in meta but going 1v1 takes too long - burst is too low - most of the time it's better to just threaten and then go elsewere.

Decap and+1 might be viable but so is a Super Hero's brand of toilet paper. A ninjas toddler at home is viable, its the future, but don't you want to be a ninja? The waterboy for the football team is viable. The Ford Fiesta is viable to get to work.

Basketball has Guards, Centers, Forwards and Towel Boys.. Towel Boys are viable as long as you know your main job is to +1 the floor and sweaty foreheads.

@Cobrakon.3108 said:

@Arioch.4810 said:S/D is the best build atm, and good fit in most teams (please go power, condi daredevil has too many horrible matchups)One of the few core builds that works to perfection.Of course you primary role is decap and +1. You have a couple of favorable matchups in meta but going 1v1 takes too long - burst is too low - most of the time it's better to just threaten and then go elsewere.

Is your point that S/D is nothing special that stands out? or is it that its underwhelming?

Also i need to ask this once again, why did they nerf P/P? its a niche weapon build that has its uses but it can be countered fairly easy by eles with magnetic field.

@"Axl.8924" said:Also i need to ask this once again, why did they nerf P/P? its a niche weapon build that has its uses but it can be countered fairly easy by eles with magnetic field.

Technically they didn't nerf it or you could say that their purpose wasn't to nerf it. The change would be almost perfect if the "buff" induced by the skill could disappear when you end up in melee range.

@Axl.8924 said:Also i need to ask this once again, why did they nerf P/P?

That's the thing, nobody knows. They never explained themselves. P/P was already in the position that nobody even considered it when talking about viable thief builds and was already outclassed by rifle at this point. Maybe they didn't like how most P/P players only used Unload but if that's the case then they don't understand basic game mechanics. It's not as if P/P players don't want to use other weapon skills, there's just no point in doing so. Why would I care about using CC if it means that I can't follow up with Unload afterwards? Where's the engage / disengagement skill? What about a small scale AoE? Nerfing Unload doesn't solve any of the fundamental problems the weapon set is facing. The whole set needs a complete overhaul with Unload as a Vital Shot replacement, this way Unload wouldn't trigger traits like Lead Attacks anymore but at least we would end up with a proper weapon set.

As to why it was nerfed a while ago:P/P was too effective in PvE and required zero skill to play in PvP thanks to DE + baseline initiative refunding, so it was nerfed because its entire gameplay consisted of pressing literally one button as fast as you could once engaged in combat with the occasional use of heal and RFI for more initiative.

It has the same fundamental issue D/D has; its mainhand skills are one type of damage (power in dagger, condi in pistol) while its dual skill is the opposite type and quite potent, with offhand skills that generally are better not utilized at all. You can absolutely make arguments for Headshot and BP, but boons and blocks are so potent and so frequent today it's generally just a waste of initiative to bother.

The mainand and offhand weapons just need more skill expression and purpose between its power/condi options. Spamming Unload isn't gameplay, and neither is spamming Death Blossom. Problem with P/P specifically is that OH pistol, unlike OH dagger, is there are no universally bad skills like Dancing Dagger or justifiable skill reworks which can up the skill level and reward like changes to DB I've proposed in the past; on D/P, Pistol 5 is literally the only reason the kit is played, so changing its design isn't really possible without subsequently changing D/P and S/P, which may also implicate changes to D/D and S/D.

I don't really know what a good fix for pistol is. IMHO, I'd just rather see Pistols being condi/control and daggers being power/evasion so we don't have these weird hybrid kits that have one super powerful skill that has nothing to do with the other four skills.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:As to why it was nerfed a while ago:P/P was too effective in PvE and required zero skill to play in PvP thanks to DE + baseline initiative refunding, so it was nerfed because its entire gameplay consisted of pressing literally one button as fast as you could once engaged in combat with the occasional use of heal and RFI for more initiative.

This is copleate nonsense, they didn't touch PvE at all (and why would they (not that they ever needed a reason to nerf something), below average DPS without any useful team support can hardly be called "too effective in PvE") and they never gave a reason why they nerfed it in PvP. You just made that up, don't spread misinformation. I already explained why people only use one skill and that's is not a valid excuse when it comes to justifying a nerf.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:so changing its design isn't really possible without subsequently changing D/P and S/P

Wrong, they can always use more than one dual skill to make up for synergy issues if needed. It's clear that the set defining dual skill is geared towards sustained power DPS and if the rest of the set doesn't match the underlying playstyle then they should adjust it accordingly.

@Axl.8924 said:

@Cobrakon.3108 said:

@"Arioch.4810" said:S/D is the best build atm, and good fit in most teams (please go power, condi daredevil has too many horrible matchups)One of the few core builds that works to perfection.Of course you primary role is decap and +1. You have a couple of favorable matchups in meta but going 1v1 takes too long - burst is too low - most of the time it's better to just threaten and then go elsewere.

Imma make a bold statement here. What any true thief wants is to be able to kill every class and have a fair shake in 1v1. Any true thief wants to be an assassin not a circus acrobat nibbles and runs nibbles and runs 20 times. Many who fell in love with the class left the class in the first 2 years. Many of us wanted the ninja/assassin/ archetype but what we got instead was a circus acrobat (teleport dodge dodge dodge nibble teleport nibble teleport.)

Let me put it this way. I don't try MMORPGS for any other reason than to play the Rogue/Assasin/Thief Class. I've tried to play other classes and i just cant get into it. Why am I hear you ask? Well, its because GW2 has more than classes to offer. IT has some of the best mmorpg combat mechanics ever made. Add to that the fact that any build is basically passable in PVE. And lets not forget the good community, music, finding ways out of places, story, etc.

Let it sink in that at one point I had 4 thieves, Now I only have two....... and 10 mesmers. Oh btw those 10 mesmers are almost all wearing Bandit Sniper/Pirate/Monk "leather" outfits.

Also Thief players tend to be more of the DUDE PLayers(for lack of a better term)Thief players tend to play street fighterThief players tend to play Counter StrikeThief Players tend to not enter a building through the door in game but crash through the window or from above. (and then other players are like " i didn't know you could crash through the ceiling like that!)

@Tails.9372 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:As to why it was nerfed a while ago:P/P was too effective in PvE and required zero skill to play in PvP thanks to DE + baseline initiative refunding, so it was nerfed because its entire gameplay consisted of pressing literally one button as fast as you could once engaged in combat with the occasional use of heal and RFI for more initiative.

Apologies, I thought they nerfed the base init cost for PvE as well. And they've "balanced" around PvE a lot. MH dagger AA being one of the primary subjects of constant fiddling.3 init per unload was still not justifiable in the PvP modes and over-performed for how little skill was involved. Unless you'd like to tell me P/P 3spam Deadeye required a lot of skill to play, despite being one of the FoTM noob builds.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:so changing its design isn't really possible without subsequently changing D/P and S/P

Which I have also proposed before. Repeatedly. But I don't think ANet is going to do that based on their history of ignoring needed system-level reworks. Unless we see dual skills expanded to skills for 2-4, there is no easy fix because you could argue the exact opposite for P/D which actually has a cohesive kit and shouldn't see MH pistol gutted for the benefit of power builds when MH pistol is functionally the only MH condi weapon the thief has. Considering you specifically mentioned Vital Shot needing to be replaced, your argument holds no water when it's countered by the condi perspective.

People also seem to forget that Unload is still stronger than it used to be by a considerable margin. It was buffed by 26%, used to cost 6 with no refund, nor did it used to supply might. It overperformed. P/P being weak in the PvP modes is more the result of other game-wide issues and problems with the thief than P/P itself. Having no mobility, poor defenses, and easily-denied damage with all its killing power coming from one-skill means it's either going to be either outclassed and countered forever, or be overpowered numerically with a very high skill floor where it's not fun to play against.

If your idea is to expand dual skills to 2-4 and make P/P require more skill while providing a larger reward, or to voice your concerns about being countered too easily by the dominant specs, that should be the topic of discussion with arguments and ideas to fix every kits' problems or asking to cull the powercreep across the rest of the game, rather than criticizing the strength of Unload and asking for MH Pistol AA to become a power skill as you initially did.

Unload to strong thus promoting brain dead spamming,lower damage and buff other skills so there worth using in a rotation. There fixed. Instead they nerf unload and keep other skills week so whole skill set is garbage,makes sense.

@Cobrakon.3108 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Cobrakon.3108 said:

@"Arioch.4810" said:S/D is the best build atm, and good fit in most teams (please go power, condi daredevil has too many horrible matchups)One of the few core builds that works to perfection.Of course you primary role is decap and +1. You have a couple of favorable matchups in meta but going 1v1 takes too long - burst is too low - most of the time it's better to just threaten and then go elsewere.

I played thief cause i like stealth games and enjoy the feeling of sneaking up behind people to attack. I have played metal gear solid series and i played one of the hitman games, and the feeling of sneaking up on folks from behind and getting creative is fun plus being mobile. I don't play counter strike and i dont play streetfighter, at least not anymore.

Depends on what do you mean by viable in pvp? If you are only interested in Ranked gameplay yes you can play several builds and do good on.

S/DD/PDeadeye w RifleAlso seen some "staff" thieves.

Depends completely on what you want to achieve and what your goals are