Upcoming Engineer Balance Changes

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

Engineer

Following the previous gyro updates, we've had the opportunity to update gyros for underwater use as well. With the change to Blunderbuss, we're aiming to give clarity about the best-use scenarios for this skill by reducing the size of the tooltip and making it clear that closer is always better, rather than using complicated, staggered range thresholds. If this goes well, we're likely to update other abilities in a similar fashion to provide more best-use clarity in future updates.

• Blunderbuss: Rather than inflicting between 1 and 4 stacks of bleeding for 7 seconds based on range, this skill now inflicts 3 stacks of bleeding with a duration of between 3 and 9 seconds based on range. This skill has been reworked to scale damage dynamically based on distance rather than at various tiers so that closer is always better, not just when the engineer crosses a particular range threshold. The range of this skill has been increased from 700 to 900.
• Jump Shot: This skill now animates more smoothly when used to reach a lower elevation.
• Poison Dart Volley: Projectiles fired by this skill no longer fire in a randomized cone. Updated skill facts to show the full attack damage rather than the damage of individual darts.
• Holographic Shockwave: Fixed a bug that could cause this skill to fail to hit targets at the center of the attack.
• Shredder Gyro: Reduced the casting time of this skill by 0.3 seconds, and increased the damage inflicted by 33%.
• Experimental Turrets: Fixed a bug that caused the underwater Supply Crate's Rocket Turret to apply might instead of retaliation.
• Gyros can now be used underwater.

Relatively minor changes for engineers compared to other classes, but general improvements going around. Overall I approve. MH pistol still needs more improvements, but this is a good step.

They are likely working on a scrapper rework aimed at changing or replacing the function gyro to add more trade off. Looks like they already addressed druid, herald, and berserker. Scrapper is probably taking longer because it is a larger rework.

Maybe we get a scrapper kit?

@"Zex Anthon.8673" said:They are likely working on a scrapper rework aimed at changing or replacing the function gyro to add more trade off. Looks like they already addressed druid, herald, and berserker. Scrapper is probably taking longer because it is a larger rework.

Maybe we get a scrapper kit?

I think they're running into the same issue they had with HoT -- the function gyro "mechanic" was hastily implemented to the point where it's primarily only useful in competitive game modes, and making it worse by requiring a tradeoff will be a quandry for the spec in PvE.

Meanwhile, traited Mass Invisibility gets the same stealth of Sneak Gyro in WvW and PvP, at a comparable cooldown (48s versus 45s), with an higher radius and, most importantly, with double the targets (10, versus the gyro's 5 targets). The only thing noticeably worse is the cast time, now reduced to 1.25s (0.5s more than Sneak Gyro, but all the stealth is given in a single pulse, unlike the gyro). Even their traited version gets to give super speed (3s at 10 targets).

People here kept saying Sneak Gyro was so strong, and yet they are. With a similar skill, but with twice the targets.For the Nth time, just delete it and give us something else...

Fatal Frenzy: This trait no longer gives boons. Instead, while in berserk mode, this trait reduces toughness by 300

Throw this on one of the Holosmith Minors, too.

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:They are likely working on a scrapper rework aimed at changing or replacing the function gyro to add more trade off. Looks like they already addressed druid, herald, and berserker. Scrapper is probably taking longer because it is a larger rework.

Maybe we get a scrapper kit?

I hope so! Function gyro is the most boring and dull elite specialization mechanic out there. It would get a complete rework. I would love to play scrapper if they change it to something more interesting.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

Fatal Frenzy: This trait no longer gives boons. Instead, while in berserk mode, this trait reduces toughness by 300

While I'm not against it in general, you need to consider that Holosmiths already get a penalty when it comes to using Kits.

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

Fatal Frenzy: This trait no longer gives boons. Instead, while in berserk mode, this trait reduces toughness by 300

That berserker minor trait also gives bonuses, though. Funny how he wanted holos to get only the toughness reduction and not all the other stats. Here is the full description.

Fatal Frenzy: This trait no longer gives boons. Instead, while in berserk mode, this trait reduces toughness by 300, increases power by 300, and increases condition damage by 300.

@Manuhell.2759 said:Funny how he wanted holos to get only the toughness reduction and not all the other stats. Here is the full description.

Hehe, I'm aware. People just like being salty from time to time. For example about Sneak Gyro and Mass Invisbility. :# ;)

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Manuhell.2759 said:Funny how he wanted holos to get only the toughness reduction and not all the other stats. Here is the full description.

If you're talking about my previous post, i can't understand what's salty about it. Traited Mass Invisibility is now outright better, it's a fact - it does the same thing as sneak gyro, but better and with twice the targets, with the only drawback of a slightly longer cast time. We had discussions about Sneak Gyro before, and i already said how its effects aren't good enough for an elite (and as stealth is problematic and there aren't decent ways to make it better, they should just scrap the concept of that skill and make something else). And indeed, Mass Invisibility ended up with similar effects and cooldown while retaining its higher amount of targets. And yet people still complain about Sneak Gyro even in the balance thread...

@Manuhell.2759 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Manuhell.2759 said:Funny how he wanted holos to get only the toughness reduction and not all the other stats. Here is the full description.

I'm just teasing.

To make it short: You need two traits for the effect you're describing. MI is still worse. And this doesn't even consider the Toolbelt skill. Therefore, I find this comparison rather odd and not very constructive. I can understand that people complain about Elites being not as impactful as they probably should be. But this is not a Sneak Gyro related issue. And I also feel that Sneak Gyro is still on the stronger side. At least strong enough for me to still use it.

@Xaylin.1860 said:To make it short: You need two traits for the effect you're describing. MI is still worse. And this doesn't even consider the Toolbelt skill. Therefore, I find this comparison rather odd and not very constructive. I can understand that people complain about Elites being not as impactful as they probably should be. But this is not a Sneak Gyro related issue. And I also feel that Sneak Gyro is still on the stronger side. At least strong enough for me to still use it.

So what? The traits are still there. And if i were to not consider traits, the meager gyro radius would be even worse, anyway. Not our fault that we lack other gyro traits, after all. And that toolbelt is the most situational skill ever - we had discussions even about it before, it's all about guesswork, it can be blocked (even via aegis, for example) or dodged, and targets only 5 people anyway. If you think Sneak Gyro is still stronger...well, you're purposefully ignoring facts, not much i can do about it. Feel free to use it, though. I'll keep using Supply Crate instead (at least its toolbelt is useful).

@Manuhell.2759 said:So what? The traits are still there.

It doesn't change the fact that baseline MI is still worse and you won't see much double-traited MI anyway.

I have never even seen my function gyro working, even when trying to revive people from close/mid range, the little guy does nothing and i still end up rubbing everyone.

Meh. Pistol still rubbish. Rifle still rubbish. Kits still rubbish. Turrets still sub-rubbish. Rubbish slime. What's that about trade-offs again? And yet the only thing people talk about in the balance changes thread is, 'OMG no nerfs to Holo and Scrapper!'

They could nerf both of them today and it still woudln't change the fact that core is still a steaming pile. If anything it'd mean we'd have three steaming piles instead of one. Seriously, the majority of the community here needs laser corrective eye surgery with an enema chaser.

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Manuhell.2759 said:So what? The traits are still there.

Baseline MI still gets to be a 6s stealth at 60s cooldown at 10 targets, with a large radius, in a single pulse, and it got a reduction in the cast time. If you do the math, the untraited version outputs the same amount of stealth per second - 9s x 5->45s stealth with 45s cooldown for the gyro, 6s x 10->60s stealth with a 60s cooldown for MI. So you're wrong here as well, as it's not worse at all.And talking about baseline versions hardly matters. We got a trait to increase barriers too, impact savant, it's on scrapper. People still complain about our barriers. Guess you'll be happy to go and tell people they're wrong and our barriers are perfectly fine being higher than others because we have a trait about it. Or ask for elixir buffs, HGH doesn't matter after all, it's a trait. No, guess it doesn't work like that, huh.

@Manuhell.2759 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:To make it short: You need two traits for the effect you're describing. MI is still worse. And this doesn't even consider the Toolbelt skill. Therefore, I find this comparison rather odd and not very constructive. I can understand that people complain about Elites being not as impactful as they probably should be. But this is not a Sneak Gyro related issue. And I also feel that Sneak Gyro is still on the stronger side. At least strong enough for me to still use it.

Mass Invisibility with double traits will have a 48 second cooldown with a 9 second duration. Sneak Gyro is a 45 second cooldown, 9 second duration stealth that comes out in far more useful pulsing increments, comes with a field that can be blasted and leaped into for even longer stealth duration, and aside from Scrapper to unlock Gyro Utilities doesn't require any traits to gain that level of effectiveness, let alone 2.

Toss Elixir S is overpowered, too.

@Manuhell.2759 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:

Fatal Frenzy: This trait no longer gives boons. Instead, while in berserk mode, this trait reduces toughness by 300

Fatal Frenzy: This trait no longer gives boons. Instead, while in berserk mode, this trait reduces toughness by 300, increases power by 300, and increases condition damage by 300.

You already have a trait that provides better levels of damage with Photon Forge interaction.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mass Invisibility with double traits will have a 48 second cooldown with a 9 second duration. Sneak Gyro is a 45 second cooldown, 9 second duration stealth that comes out in far more useful pulsing increments, comes with a field that can be blasted and leaped into for even longer stealth duration, and aside from Scrapper to unlock Gyro Utilities doesn't require any traits to gain that level of effectiveness, let alone 2.

The pulsing increments aren't more useful at all, if you get revealed at the start you end up missing most of the additional pulsing stealths either way, and every pulse is only about 1.5s (so if you miss the initial pulses...you aren't getting much stealth either). They just force anyone else to stay near the scrapper for most of the duration of the stealth (whereas MI just gives it all together in a large radius). And bombing in the smoke fields doesn't work that well either, as you're already capping the stacks (so you don't even get the full 3s ) besides requiring to waste added skills (assuming it doesn't get ruined by some other field, that is; something that tends to happen often in WvW). And even then,Mass Invisibility still targets TWICE the players (funny how people who deem MI bad never point that out). So as i said above, it outputs the same amount of stealth even baseline...except it does it with a larger radius and it doesn't ask for people to stay near the mesmer for most of the time (1.25s at the cast compared to 0.75s for cast and 5s of stealth stacking near the scrapper with the gyro). Even the baseline skill works better than the gyro, so what are we talking about.

@Manuhell.2759 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Mass Invisibility with double traits will have a 48 second cooldown with a 9 second duration. Sneak Gyro is a 45 second cooldown, 9 second duration stealth that comes out in far more useful pulsing increments, comes with a field that can be blasted and leaped into for even longer stealth duration, and aside from Scrapper to unlock Gyro Utilities doesn't require any traits to gain that level of effectiveness, let alone 2.

As opposed to missing ALL of Mass Invisibility if you get revealed. Realistic SPvP scenario you'd want to have Stealth Gyro or Mass Invisibility for: Allies goes down. You pop your elite party wide stealth to ward off stomp attempts and revive in safety. Downed ally auto attacks while downed because what else is he going to do and gets revealed. With Mass Invisibility your entire elite is wasted. With Sneak Gyro if they accidentally reveal themselves because they didn't react in time for your play or they were already revealed they still have a chance to receive stealth once revealed wears off. That extra chance simply cannot happen with Mass Invisibility. One is objectively better.

and every pulse is only about 1.5s (so if you miss the initial pulses...you aren't getting much stealth either). They just force anyone else to stay near the scrapper for most of the duration of the stealth (whereas MI just gives it all together in a large radius).

Mass Invisibility has a huge radius but Sneak Gyro is SPvP node sized so it's not remotely puny.

And bombing in the smoke fields doesn't work that well either, as you're already capping the stacks (so you don't even get the full 3s ) besides requiring to waste added skills (assuming it doesn't get ruined by some other field, that is; something that tends to happen often in WvW). And even then,Mass Invisibility still targets TWICE the players (funny how people who deem MI bad never point that out). So as i said above, it outputs the same amount of stealth even baseline...except it does it with a larger radius and it doesn't ask for people to stay near the mesmer for most of the time (1.25s at the cast compared to 0.75s for cast and 5s of stealth stacking near the scrapper with the gyro). Even the baseline skill works better than the gyro, so what are we talking about.

I don't care about WvW. Only Conquest. Don't ever mention WvW to me again.

@mortrialus.3062 said:You already have a trait that provides better levels of damage with Photon Forge interaction.And it also comes with an additional condition - over 50 heat - with a mechanic that already uses up heat per seconds and depending on the photon forge skill used, until the holosmith overheats and gets some self-damage (partially reduced with a trait). The backlash was already built-in since the start.Whereas berserkers got only bonuses till this change, and despite getting a reduced toughness (along with an increased power and condition damage) they are also getting a way to extend their berserk mode further (but we'll have to see how well it will work). I guess they want to go with the classical berserker archetype with those changes. If it won't work as well as they think, they'll change it.You're comparing apples and oranges from the start, though.

@Manuhell.2759 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:You already have a trait that provides better levels of damage with Photon Forge interaction.And it also comes with an additional condition - over 50 heat - with a mechanic that already uses up heat per seconds and depending on the photon forge skill used, until the holosmith overheats and gets some self-damage (partially reduced with a trait). The backlash was already built-in since the start.Whereas berserkers got only bonuses till this change, and despite getting a reduced toughness (along with an increased power and condition damage) they are also getting a way to extend their berserk mode further (but we'll have to see how well it will work). I guess they want to go with the classical berserker archetype with those changes. If it won't work as well as they think, they'll change it.You're comparing apples and oranges from the start, though.

And Berserk is an Adrenaline Skill and requires three full bars of adrenaline to use and utilities to maintain. It's just just something they always have access to. Holosmith overheating isn't a concern for anyone who has played holosmith for more than a couple of minutes. It's probably been literal months since any holosmith has overheated that wasn't running Photonic Blasting Module.

@Manuhell.2759 said:[...]

You describe one scenario (+5 people - never gonna happen in PvP btw.) which favours your argument while neglecting any other scenario where your assumptions doesn't hold. And yes, considering associated traits matters. But so does baseline effectiveness, especially when traiting comes with a significant trade-off. However, comparing numbers of a baseline effect vs. one with a heavy trait-investment is just silly.

Sneak Gyro is hardly as bad as some people want it to seem. MI was universally worse than Sneak Gyro. Now it is situationally better numberwise - mostly when traited. Which doesn't even consider the fact that it is less appealing to Mesmers than Sneak Gyro is to Engineers due to the overall access to stealth of both classes. As I said. Some people want to be salty.

If anyone was upset, it should be Mesmers because of Moa and Thieves because of Shadow Refuge. ;)

@mortrialus.3062 said:

As opposed to missing ALL of Mass Invisibility if you get revealed. Realistic SPvP scenario you'd want to have Stealth Gyro or Mass Invisibility for: Allies goes down. You pop your elite party wide stealth to ward off stomp attempts and revive in safety. Downed ally auto attacks while downed because what else is he going to do and gets revealed. With Mass Invisibility your entire elite is wasted. With Sneak Gyro if they accidentally reveal themselves because they didn't react in time for your play or they were already revealed they still have a chance to receive stealth once revealed wears off. That extra chance simply cannot happen with Mass Invisibility. One is objectively better.

For what i read about PvP - i don't really care about that mode - that scrapper would rather be alone in a side-node bunkering. That's what people usually complain about.That said, if the downed attacks after a couple seconds from the activation it's still dead - that reveal will cover all the rest of the stealth applications. If not, it gets a couple more seconds (assuming no one killed it while it was revealed). In that particular situation it may be better, even if slightly. It doesn't make it objectively better in general, though.

Mass Invisibility has a huge radius but Sneak Gyro is SPvP node sized so it's not remotely puny.I don't care about WvW. Only Conquest. Don't ever mention WvW to me again.I don't care about Conquest as well, so what? You're the one that wants a skill literally called Mass Invisibility and that targets a large amount of people over a large radius by design to be better than a stealth skill made to target a smaller amount of people in a smaller radius. A skill that targets 10 people isn't made primarily for Conquest - a 5 vs 5 mode - to start with.

@"Xaylin.1860" said:

You describe one scenario (+5 people - never gonna happen in PvP btw.) which favours your argument while neglecting any other scenario where your assumptions doesn't hold. And yes, considering associated traits matters. But so does baseline effectiveness, especially when traiting comes with a significant trade-off. However, comparing numbers of a baseline effect vs. one with a heavy trait-investment is just silly.

It's not "one scenario". That skill is literally called "MASS" invisibility and targets 10 people, it was made like that by design. Not every skill exists for the sake of Conquest, this game has other modes too.And as i said, even the baseline stealth effects are comparable, albeit applied in a different way (single pulse and large radius, versus multiple pulses and small radius).

Sneak Gyro is hardly as bad as some people want it to seem. MI was universally worse than Sneak Gyro. Now it is situationally better numberwise - mostly when traited. Which doesn't even consider the fact that it is less appealing to Mesmers than Sneak Gyro is to Engineers due to the overall access to stealth of both classes. As I said. Some people want to be salty.

The only thing that made it really, really worse was that mirror effect when traited that inevitably caused reveals (it made no sense, and indeed, it got finally changed).That said, traited MI is just outright better now. It's meaningless to talk about it as "situationally better", they made that skill with that number of targets on purpose to begin with. It's like saying that Elixir C is situationally useless because you may have no conditions on your character. It's made for converting conditions, of course it will do nothing if you don't have anything on. Just like MI is made for mass invisibility purposes and can't stealth people that just aren't there.They could nerf it in WvW only, but it would really make no sense to do so, if not for a contrite way to make a skill that wasn't designed over Conquest to start with suitable in that mode as well.

If anyone was upset, it should be Mesmers because of Moa and Thieves because of Shadow Refuge. ;)

I can sort-of agree about the Moa (i would like a rework of Elixir X, actually - make it something that doesn't just recycles other classes' elites). Funny you mention Shadow Refuge though, for two reasons. One is that's a normal utility, but that's the least important thing. The other...is that Shadow Refuge has no target limit. A mobile shadow refuge would be insane...and that's why there is none.