A Quick History — Guild Wars 2 Forums

A Quick History

For those asking for fixes, and those offering solutions for problems that plague this class. I offer a quick reminder. I won't delve into the entire history of this class, as I have done that before. It just seems like people have forgotten some things about this class.

First. The elementalist class isn't even a complete class anymore. Hasn't been since HoT. Core elementalist actually lost functionality with the release of HoT. Lost you say? What sort of witchery do you speak? Oh, I dunno. It seems like Karl waited to work on tempest until the night before it was due, like a college student with a 20 page essay. Originally auras were on SIGNETS. They were stripped from core elementalist and added to shouts. Then resold back as the new tempest spec.

Basically since HoT, core ele has been an incomplete class. Tempest was released with auras on shouts, and fairly decent damage on overloads (which has since been nerfed into the ground, like so many other aspects of this class).

Not sure why anyone is begging for fixes or balance passes for this class anymore. I just started using my engineer (had it to 80, and unlocked all the specs, just never used it - as in...AT ALL). I can do more with 3 skills on my engineer, than I can do with my ele using 10 skills plus utilities. I barely even look at the utilities on my engineer, I don't need them for pve at all. I might even take it into wvw soon, because it looks like it would be hilarious. I mean, with a few thousand hours of practice on my ele, i'm alright. People even want me around in wvw on my ele...I'm just kinda thinking if I take any other class into wvw, I would probably be a monster. Which is sad. Really, REALLY, sad. Maybe just a little bit pathetic (on anet's part).

I shouldn't be able to take classes that I've had less than two hours played on (EVER), and do so much (oh God, so much more) than I can do on a class that i've played literally thousands of hours on. I mean, I dusted of my ranger. I ran through using core, druid, and soulbeast. Its crazy. I mean, really crazy. And NO. I'm not asking for, implying, or even remotely wanting nerfs to either of those classes (because they are so much fun - and this is just in pve). Requesting nerfs just makes everyone angry, and if it happens, it kinda ruins other people's fun. I don't want that. But I do envy what those classes can do using so little though.

Even our class mechanic kinda sucks. Since elements provide next to ZERO actual condition damage related to each element...whats the point? I mean, effectively we have a cooldown on top of cooldowns...and this justifies ele not having weapon swap? We have the lowest health pool. The lowest armor. Cooldowns on top of cooldowns. Pretty much the longest cast and after casts on any major skills (which really hurts staff now that some act of stupid decided that meteor storm can ONLY hit five people and the damage keeps getting reduced).

Honestly, when looking at what is happening at this class, as much as I love it, it just feels (I have a lot of things to fill in this statement, but i'll probably get in trouble - and I do want people to see this and understand why this class is really starting to feel a bit hopeless and lost) like its lost more than just its place in the meta. It feels like whoever is working on this class is lost or doesn't have the resources, or just doesn't have the confidence (in self, or of superiors) to fix, adjust, balance (take your pick) this class.

I apologize for this running on. I didn't expect to pour this much into a post.
Jsk, you used to argue with me about the direction that ele was headed. I have noticed your position has changed quite a lot. I'm actually kinda unhappy that we're seeing a lot closer to eye to eye on this class now.

Comments

  • The devil is in the details.

    I happen to remember this build. Woodenpotatoes had a few videos on it a few years ago. You can look at one here. As it happens... aura sharing signet build was pretty bad. You had to go full 30 into water for powerful auras, 20 into fire for the fire aura trait, and then a few points in Air and Earth to get Zephy'rs Boon and Elemental Shielding. This had all of the support bonuses of running fresh air + elemental attunement, except it consumed your entire build and left you with no utility. Really, the only aura that you actually shared with any consistency was Fire Aura.

    Also keep in mind, this was back in 2013. Even earlier, depending on which video you go to. At this time, all of the signets were pretty bad. They received the following buffs each:

    Air: Became a Stun Breaker, reduced recharge, inflicts vulnerability alongside of blind, became an AoE skill.
    Fire: 100% passive buff, doubled base damage, faster casting, increased burning, reduced recharge, became an AoE skill.
    Earth: 100% passive buff, lowered cast time, lowered recharge, and now inflicts bleeds.
    Water: Lowered Cast Time, Lowered Recharge, Becomes an AoE skill, change functionality from random cleansing to static reduction
    Restoration: Reduced cooldown and normalized functionality.

    You know how signets aren't that good now, and basically nobody plays them? That was much worse back then. Basically, you were a hapless and helpless bag of bones that had no utility or defenses. The buffs that these aura builds offered were weaker than what most standard builds did by accident. Whether it was D/D arcane, or Fire Staff. Hell, back in this era, Fire Staff was the preferred build, because it was really hard to stack might without blasting fire fields. The tempest changes did two things that were good for Eles. First, it lets you run group auras without having to build exclusively for them. Second, it allowed signets to receive a large series of buffs, without having their functionality weighed down by an extremely specific aura spamming build. I mean, be real here. The aura spamming build was, at its best, a trivial quirk of the build system.

    This is the reason why I can't take these sensationalist arguments like "Ele is an incomplete class" seriously. You don't do the research. You don't do the math. You go by feelings, bolstered only by the vaguest of comparisons, and don't even bother to actually check if you are right. It's all sour grapes, envy, one-sided complaints, and "what-about" isms. The simple premise that this thread starts with is "Ele is incomplete now," yet Ele has more now than it does to the period you are comparing it to. Ele can still spam auras. In fact, it can do it much easier and much better with greater diversity than it did in the past. You've decided to anchor a way-too-long post around a trivial distinction.

    Then you throw out the same tired complaints about HP tiers and armor tiers. Do you have any idea how meaningless those are? If Ele's went from low tier to mid tier armor, that is only a 7% increase in defenses against direct damage on a 0 toughness build. How often do you lose by a 7% health margin? Scratch that: how often do you beat an elementalist only by a 7% margin? You are bringing up things that mean NOTHING, and yet you parade it around as if there is a graveyard of Ele's who's only flaw is that they weren't 7% tougher than they currently were. Health tiers mean a bit more, but not as much. Going from low to medium health tier means a bit more, but not as much as you'd think, since rangers, revenants, engineers, and mesmers can still get burst down from full to zero very quickly. This is in spite of having higher armor, too.

    Consider this another quick history lesson: D/D Bunker Ele. The build that tyrannized sPVP for a season, because it was nigh indestructible. The reason why this low HP low armor build was so tough was because it has massive amounts of sustain, and there were no adequate counters to all the boons it generated. Since then, Anet has been utterly terrified of Elementalist, precisely because it can become incredibly overpowered very fast. The dangerous thing about sustain is that it isn't a scaled modifier to incoming damage. It is subtraction. You subtract from your incoming damage. If you encounter an enemy that can out-heal the damage you do, you can never win. See, THAT is the problem you have to solve for Anet. You have to figure out how to make it so all Ele builds can heal themselves sufficiently in water attunement without making certain builds completely overpowered. Then, you don't have to go into all of this nonsense about armor tiers.

    You're not doing yourself a favor when you carry on like this. You're really not. You're setting yourself up for failure. Either you'll have unreasonable expectations and just make yourself feel maligned and targeted any time these expectations aren't met, or you're setting up the entire game for failure if you emotionally manipulate Anet into making terrible balance decisions.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • I think you completely missed the mark. I can use an ele. I can use it in pve, and in pvp. Point is, auras were removed from core. It IS incomplete. Saying otherwise is foolish. Nothing was returned to the class. It also has never received any actual baseline bonus, like most other classes. Even lingering elements couldn't be made to work properly. Lets be clear, your entire post is an extremely poor attempt to cover problems with the class by redirecting a subtle blame in my direction. As for stats, they are important. Low armor and health absolutely affect how this class operates. Otherwise celestial would never have been functional on this class, which it obviously was until it was nerfed into oblivion. Again, another argument that fails to hit its mark, because ele is extremely stat dependent. That argument might work on other classes, but falls short on the one class that actually uses all stats.

    I've seen all your arguments before, and they are foolish. You think because ele has more now, that it isn't outclassed by what other classes have now, that used to be the domain of the elementalist? That thought is ridiculous, and hides behind "what-about"isms concerning blatantly over powered damage coming out of other classes. As stated, I don't want anything nerfed. But only a fool would state the over powered history of the class as a reason that it doesn't deserve to be on par with everything else.

    I also don't even care much anymore if it even GETS any fixes or changes. At this point, considering the state of anet, i would almost prefer that they don't touch it anymore.
    And to be clear, i'm not all that emotional about it. I'm also not feeling all that maligned or targeted. Fantastic assumptions. I'm also not attempting to "emotionally manipulate Anet into" yadda, yadda...I'm not even sure what kind of therapy you are making an attempt at here. Because again, not all that emotional.

    Go home. You're drunk.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I thought the thread was sarcasm when I read it... From the follow up I guess it's not.

    All professions lost a bunch of things when they introduced the specialization system, not just the elementalist. An honestly aura on signets is probably the most irrelevant "hit" that elementalist took with the introduction of the specialization system.

    Elementalists complains about their low health pool and low armor started at release of the game and carried throught both the time where elementalist were at their strongest point and the time where they were at their weakest point. This is why this argument is difficult to take seriously when "history" proved that this argument is in fact irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

    You're complaining about the lack of weaponswap and the uselessness of the elementalist's special mechanic when in fact this mechanic give you access to 4 weapons skill kit at any moment... etc.

    You're definitely looking at the elementalist from the wrong point of view, just being blinded by your expectation of what it should be instead of looking at it for what it is. Instead of taking advantage and ejoying it for what it does, you focus yourself on what you'd want it to do. You won't be satisfied, ever, by looking at things like this.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2019

    Literally everything you've said is wrong.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    I think you completely missed the mark. I can use an ele. I can use it in pve, and in pvp.

    I never said you couldn't use Ele.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    Point is, auras were removed from core. It IS incomplete. Saying otherwise is foolish.

    It's a meaningless point. It produces nothing, is indicative of nothing, at best it is trivial that has no bearing on the current status of ele, and at worst you're being deliberately manipulative.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    Nothing was returned to the class. It also has never received any actual baseline bonus, like most other classes.

    I just listed all of the signet buffs. That is, among other things, baseline bonuses.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    Even lingering elements couldn't be made to work properly.

    Did you know I own a cat? It is equally as relevant to this discussion now as what you just said here is.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    Lets be clear, your entire post is an extremely poor attempt to cover problems with the class by redirecting a subtle blame in my direction.

    Your entire post is an extremely poor attempt to to convince other players to join in your lament through misrepresenting the past. I have covered nothing. In fact, I brought up what the main problem is, and why Anet is so reluctant to fix it.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    As for stats, they are important. Low armor and health absolutely affect how this class operates.

    I just demonstrated that it is not. Show me the menagerie of battles where you either won over ele or lost on ele by a margin of 7%.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    Otherwise celestial would never have been functional on this class, which it obviously was until it was nerfed into oblivion.

    Celestial works on this class because all ele builds have condition damage and healing weapon/utility skills.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    Again, another argument that fails to hit its mark, because ele is extremely stat dependent. That argument might work on other classes, but falls short on the one class that actually uses all stats.

    You're dodging the point. The health and armor tier of Ele has nothing to do with the coefficients on weapon/utility skills.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    I've seen all your arguments before, and they are foolish. You think because ele has more now,

    Which is an irrefutable fact.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    that it isn't outclassed by what other classes have now,

    That is not what I have said.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    that used to be the domain of the elementalist?

    This doesn't make sense. "Domain" exists only in your own mind. It is a meaningless term here.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    That thought is ridiculous, and hides behind "what-about"isms concerning blatantly over powered damage coming out of other classes.

    "What-about"ism is when you endless nitpick by bringing up contextless and sometimes trivial points, under the presumption that if you can meandering long enough, you win by default. See, an honest comparison looks at the totality of scope that each of the professions have, and then weighs them realistically. "What-about" ism is just complaining with more words. It's a wholly emotional argument.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    As stated, I don't want anything nerfed. But only a fool would state the over powered history of the class as a reason that it doesn't deserve to be on par with everything else.

    Says that the history of the class doesn't matter. Complains that auras were removed from signets years ago. Also, that isn't what I've said. In fact, I don't know anyone who's ever said that the sum totality of any profession should be less than every other profession. You're deliberately misrepresenting what I've said here.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    I also don't even care much anymore if it even GETS any fixes or changes. At this point, considering the state of anet, i would almost prefer that they don't touch it anymore.

    You're lying. If you didn't care, then you wouldn't be here.

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    And to be clear, i'm not all that emotional about it. I'm also not feeling all that maligned or targeted. Fantastic assumptions. I'm also not attempting to "emotionally manipulate Anet into" yadda, yadda...I'm not even sure what kind of therapy you are making an attempt at here. Because again, not all that emotional.

    Emotional argument, not emotional state. All the proof for what I said is in your title post. Further proof here:

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    Go home. You're drunk.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    The devil is in the details.

    I happen to remember this build. Woodenpotatoes had a few videos on it a few years ago. You can look at one here. As it happens... aura sharing signet build was pretty bad. You had to go full 30 into water for powerful auras, 20 into fire for the fire aura trait, and then a few points in Air and Earth to get Zephy'rs Boon and Elemental Shielding. This had all of the support bonuses of running fresh air + elemental attunement, except it consumed your entire build and left you with no utility. Really, the only aura that you actually shared with any consistency was Fire Aura.

    Also keep in mind, this was back in 2013. Even earlier, depending on which video you go to. At this time, all of the signets were pretty bad. They received the following buffs each:

    Air: Became a Stun Breaker, reduced recharge, inflicts vulnerability alongside of blind, became an AoE skill.
    Fire: 100% passive buff, doubled base damage, faster casting, increased burning, reduced recharge, became an AoE skill.
    Earth: 100% passive buff, lowered cast time, lowered recharge, and now inflicts bleeds.
    Water: Lowered Cast Time, Lowered Recharge, Becomes an AoE skill, change functionality from random cleansing to static reduction
    Restoration: Reduced cooldown and normalized functionality.

    You know how signets aren't that good now, and basically nobody plays them? That was much worse back then. Basically, you were a hapless and helpless bag of bones that had no utility or defenses. The buffs that these aura builds offered were weaker than what most standard builds did by accident. Whether it was D/D arcane, or Fire Staff. Hell, back in this era, Fire Staff was the preferred build, because it was really hard to stack might without blasting fire fields. The tempest changes did two things that were good for Eles. First, it lets you run group auras without having to build exclusively for them. Second, it allowed signets to receive a large series of buffs, without having their functionality weighed down by an extremely specific aura spamming build. I mean, be real here. The aura spamming build was, at its best, a trivial quirk of the build system.

    This is the reason why I can't take these sensationalist arguments like "Ele is an incomplete class" seriously. You don't do the research. You don't do the math. You go by feelings, bolstered only by the vaguest of comparisons, and don't even bother to actually check if you are right. It's all sour grapes, envy, one-sided complaints, and "what-about" isms. The simple premise that this thread starts with is "Ele is incomplete now," yet Ele has more now than it does to the period you are comparing it to. Ele can still spam auras. In fact, it can do it much easier and much better with greater diversity than it did in the past. You've decided to anchor a way-too-long post around a trivial distinction.

    Then you throw out the same tired complaints about HP tiers and armor tiers. Do you have any idea how meaningless those are? If Ele's went from low tier to mid tier armor, that is only a 7% increase in defenses against direct damage on a 0 toughness build. How often do you lose by a 7% health margin? Scratch that: how often do you beat an elementalist only by a 7% margin? You are bringing up things that mean NOTHING, and yet you parade it around as if there is a graveyard of Ele's who's only flaw is that they weren't 7% tougher than they currently were. Health tiers mean a bit more, but not as much. Going from low to medium health tier means a bit more, but not as much as you'd think, since rangers, revenants, engineers, and mesmers can still get burst down from full to zero very quickly. This is in spite of having higher armor, too.

    Consider this another quick history lesson: D/D Bunker Ele. The build that tyrannized sPVP for a season, because it was nigh indestructible. The reason why this low HP low armor build was so tough was because it has massive amounts of sustain, and there were no adequate counters to all the boons it generated. Since then, Anet has been utterly terrified of Elementalist, precisely because it can become incredibly overpowered very fast. The dangerous thing about sustain is that it isn't a scaled modifier to incoming damage. It is subtraction. You subtract from your incoming damage. If you encounter an enemy that can out-heal the damage you do, you can never win. See, THAT is the problem you have to solve for Anet. You have to figure out how to make it so all Ele builds can heal themselves sufficiently in water attunement without making certain builds completely overpowered. Then, you don't have to go into all of this nonsense about armor tiers.

    You're not doing yourself a favor when you carry on like this. You're really not. You're setting yourself up for failure. Either you'll have unreasonable expectations and just make yourself feel maligned and targeted any time these expectations aren't met, or you're setting up the entire game for failure if you emotionally manipulate Anet into making terrible balance decisions.

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    So just change class that's your suggestion..a good one I'd say and followed it long time ago..why I am here you aks?..well there is no refund for invested time sadly but I'd gladly take an account based class change tool from the gemstore if available

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Jski.6180 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    I meant there's no way to stop other people from complaining about ele. Arhuendel's argument is that we should delete ele because other people complain when it gets to strong, which is.... really silly. For general class improvements, there's a whole lot that can be done. Increase the damage,, add additional effects, change functionality, reduce cast times and cooldowns, etc. There's so many ways to do it that it is difficult to pick what to do.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 7, 2019

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    Making conjured weapons a kit would make this class an even bigger balance mess. Ele has enough weapon skills to balance as it is. Conjures should be removed, so that ele doesn't have to get balanced around unneeded extra skills. It's extra bloat for no reason and makes balancing PvE with PvP performance even more difficult.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 7, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    I meant there's no way to stop other people from complaining about ele. Arhuendel's argument is that we should delete ele because other people complain when it gets to strong, which is.... really silly. For general class improvements, there's a whole lot that can be done. Increase the damage,, add additional effects, change functionality, reduce cast times and cooldowns, etc. There's so many ways to do it that it is difficult to pick what to do.

    They can start by making ele skills as easy to land as everyone else's, especially staff. This means reducing the casts, aftercasts and delays on certain skills. Maybe even giving some sword skills a bit more range or cleave radius. Then we can see what truly needs to be done from there.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 7, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    I meant there's no way to stop other people from complaining about ele. Arhuendel's argument is that we should delete ele because other people complain when it gets to strong, which is.... really silly. For general class improvements, there's a whole lot that can be done. Increase the damage,, add additional effects, change functionality, reduce cast times and cooldowns, etc. There's so many ways to do it that it is difficult to pick what to do.

    Trying to make ele work at this point is like trying to drive a car with square wheels , there is a reason why MMO companies normally steer clear of hybrid designs..they always end up being a mess to balance as it's quite impossible to make them work without making specialized classes completely redundant.

    The way ele is designed , it cannot work without OP gimmicks/traits.....I don't think you're able to see the great picture.

    Not only they made this mess of a design..they even forced it to play mostly at melee range , nuking it out with all the aoe melee powercreep of other professions , raid bosses and more ..now you suggest to increase dmg...well my friend you need the sustain to deliver that dmg at melee range, enough sustain to resist being oneshotted by powercrepts melee specs in 2019.

    In the same thread you state that old d/d ele was broken as concept , too much sustain for melee combat so...cool, you suggest to increase dmg of ele while lamenting any form of necessary self-sustain for the class with the lowest HP and most complicated design...do you fully understand what you're saying?

    It may sound silly to you...but the truth is the class design is utter garbage , it will never work differently from old cele d/d ele , it's either something close to that...or nothing at all

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    I meant there's no way to stop other people from complaining about ele. Arhuendel's argument is that we should delete ele because other people complain when it gets to strong, which is.... really silly. For general class improvements, there's a whole lot that can be done. Increase the damage,, add additional effects, change functionality, reduce cast times and cooldowns, etc. There's so many ways to do it that it is difficult to pick what to do.

    They can start by making ele skills as easy to land as everyone else's, especially staff. This means reducing the casts, aftercasts and delays on certain skills. Maybe even giving some sword skills a bit more range or cleave radius. Then we can see what truly needs to be done from there.

    They will never do that...they want specialized class to maintain the edge, their idea was to have a "jack of all trades and master of none" but current ele is "jack of nothing and master of respawn" ....I mean c'mon guys, the devs themselves don't play ele , anytime they stream they're on war/guard/mesmer and last time they tried to make a showcase...the dev didn't even know ele had low HP

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:

    Trying to make ele work at this point is like trying to drive a car with square wheels , there is a reason why MMO companies normally steer clear of hybrid designs..they always end up being a mess to balance as it's quite impossible to make them work without making specialized classes completely redundant.

    The way ele is designed , it cannot work without OP gimmicks/traits.....I don't think you're able to see the great picture.

    Not only they made this mess of a design..they even forced it to play mostly at melee range , nuking it out with all the aoe melee powercreep of other professions , raid bosses and more ..now you suggest to increase dmg...well my friend you need the sustain to deliver that dmg at melee range, enough sustain to resist being oneshotted by powercrepts melee specs in 2019.

    In the same thread you state that old d/d ele was broken as concept , too much sustain for melee combat so...cool, you suggest to increase dmg of ele while lamenting any form of necessary self-sustain for the class with the lowest HP and most complicated design...do you fully understand what you're saying?

    It may sound silly to you...but the truth is the class design is utter garbage , it will never work differently from old cele d/d ele , it's either something close to that...or nothing at all

    You can make any profession overpowered or underpowered just by adjusting the numbers on all the skills. You can adjust both the offensive and defensive numbers, too.

    Also your reading comprehension is terrible. That's not what I said at all.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    I want to add few things to this argument, although they are not about the current heated discussion I think we should keep them in mind. Some changes that ele (or other professions) have experienced caused few problems also. Keep in mind that my focus is on wvw and I do not have even the smallest idea on pve.

    • core elementalist lacking synergy on auras. This hampered eles supportive play for a short time. Still core support is not really good compared to other professions but no one is trying that either.

    • Staff nerfs made ele not the top tier aoe profession anymore. Squishyness, nerfs and other professions being better, ele lost its place as a aoe dmg dealer in wvw.

    -Utility skills being outdated. Every profession suffers from that so this is not limited to ele. But at least cantrips and fgs can see a small buff as they are nearly mandatory for core dd ele.

    -Other profession buffs made them excel at their roles and made ele a second or a third choice at best in some areas (not all).

    • Ele bugs are persistent and are not attended to as quickly as other professions (some of them). This is really frustrating.

    These problems are heavy for core ele. Tempest suffers from lack of stability in a game of heavy cc and it is an entirely different topic. Weaver on the other hand seems to be fine-ish. I am just learning to play it. I did not like the design but it seems to work to a point.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    Making conjured weapons a kit would make this class an even bigger balance mess. Ele has enough weapon skills to balance as it is. Conjures should be removed, so that ele doesn't have to get balanced around unneeded extra skills. It's extra bloat for no reason and makes balancing PvE with PvP performance even more difficult.

    They allready did this with FB and rev so... i am not sure if your argument holds any water.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    Making conjured weapons a kit would make this class an even bigger balance mess. Ele has enough weapon skills to balance as it is. Conjures should be removed, so that ele doesn't have to get balanced around unneeded extra skills. It's extra bloat for no reason and makes balancing PvE with PvP performance even more difficult.

    They allready did this with FB and rev so... i am not sure if your argument holds any water.

    What exactly did they do? They didn't add kits or conjures or any other utilities that give more weapon skills. Guardian tomes got removed as utilities a long time ago and got reintroduced as an elite spec. Ele is the profession with the most weapon skills baseline and gets more of them from conjures for no reason really. Then they are also clunky on top of it to add insult to injury. Everything conjures can do could easily be part of the core ele weapon sets.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    Making conjured weapons a kit would make this class an even bigger balance mess. Ele has enough weapon skills to balance as it is. Conjures should be removed, so that ele doesn't have to get balanced around unneeded extra skills. It's extra bloat for no reason and makes balancing PvE with PvP performance even more difficult.

    They allready did this with FB and rev so... i am not sure if your argument holds any water.

    What exactly did they do? They didn't add kits or conjures or any other utilities that give more weapon skills. Guardian tomes got removed as utilities a long time ago and got reintroduced as an elite spec. Ele is the profession with the most weapon skills baseline and gets more of them from conjures for no reason really. Then they are also clunky on top of it to add insult to injury. Everything conjures can do could easily be part of the core ele weapon sets.

    They added in more skills for these classes FB by getting books giving it 15 more skills and rev by giving it an wepon swap ability only 10 more skills. Ele dose not have the most skills FB dose as well as eng. They top 3ed party programs that often give guess numbers of what was hit and in what state it was hit. Your missing the fact that conjure weapons have massive cd of 1 min (non elite) with a duration of 30 sec and are not stand alone weapons sets (as in they cant fill a full roll on there own they do one maybe 2 task but stop short of being an complete wepon set). As well as long cast time that in a rotation is game braking something eng kits do not have even books cast time dose not mess up rotate as badly as ele conja weapons.

    Making conja weapons a kit would fix a lot of problems with the ele class and would be the least amount of work for anet devs.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    Trying to make ele work at this point is like trying to drive a car with square wheels , there is a reason why MMO companies normally steer clear of hybrid designs..they always end up being a mess to balance as it's quite impossible to make them work without making specialized classes completely redundant.

    The way ele is designed , it cannot work without OP gimmicks/traits.....I don't think you're able to see the great picture.

    Not only they made this mess of a design..they even forced it to play mostly at melee range , nuking it out with all the aoe melee powercreep of other professions , raid bosses and more ..now you suggest to increase dmg...well my friend you need the sustain to deliver that dmg at melee range, enough sustain to resist being oneshotted by powercrepts melee specs in 2019.

    In the same thread you state that old d/d ele was broken as concept , too much sustain for melee combat so...cool, you suggest to increase dmg of ele while lamenting any form of necessary self-sustain for the class with the lowest HP and most complicated design...do you fully understand what you're saying?

    It may sound silly to you...but the truth is the class design is utter garbage , it will never work differently from old cele d/d ele , it's either something close to that...or nothing at all

    You can make any profession overpowered or underpowered just by adjusting the numbers on all the skills. You can adjust both the offensive and defensive numbers, too.

    Also your reading comprehension is terrible. That's not what I said at all.

    Let me put it this way : they designed ele to be a hybrid class able to chime in at any point in any situation and this abitlity to adapt to any situation comes with a heavy price as penalty...on top of lower base stats respect to other professions . Now the introduction of elites and the base skill reworks of other profession puts the whole ele class design really in a terrible spot like....what's the point of having this class in game?

    Ele is no more able to cut its own corner of gameplay in a game where every class is now an hybrid or rather...the base specialized classes have acquired hybrid traits thx to reworks and elites, they're now an effective ele 2.0.

    Now you can keep turning the wheels all you want but fact remains that anything ele currently does..can be done easier and more efficiently on other professions......and in the end of the day we play a game to have fun

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    Making conjured weapons a kit would make this class an even bigger balance mess. Ele has enough weapon skills to balance as it is. Conjures should be removed, so that ele doesn't have to get balanced around unneeded extra skills. It's extra bloat for no reason and makes balancing PvE with PvP performance even more difficult.

    They allready did this with FB and rev so... i am not sure if your argument holds any water.

    What exactly did they do? They didn't add kits or conjures or any other utilities that give more weapon skills. Guardian tomes got removed as utilities a long time ago and got reintroduced as an elite spec. Ele is the profession with the most weapon skills baseline and gets more of them from conjures for no reason really. Then they are also clunky on top of it to add insult to injury. Everything conjures can do could easily be part of the core ele weapon sets.

    They added in more skills for these classes FB by getting books giving it 15 more skills and rev by giving it an wepon swap ability only 10 more skills. Ele dose not have the most skills FB dose as well as eng. They top 3ed party programs that often give guess numbers of what was hit and in what state it was hit. Your missing the fact that conjure weapons have massive cd of 1 min (non elite) with a duration of 30 sec and are not stand alone weapons sets (as in they cant fill a full roll on there own they do one maybe 2 task but stop short of being an complete wepon set). As well as long cast time that in a rotation is game braking something eng kits do not have even books cast time dose not mess up rotate as badly as ele conja weapons.

    Making conja weapons a kit would fix a lot of problems with the ele class and would be the least amount of work for anet devs.

    I'm not missing anything. You are missing the point of my suggestion. The problem with conjures is that you are adding needless skills to a profession that already has the most. Weaver for example doesn't need to have conjures. You rightly said that Firebrand has lots of skills. Well, imagine if FB keeps those skills and then they give it conjures on top of that. That's how ele is atm. How much of a CD conjures have is pretty irrelevant. They still contain skills that the devs balance rotations around and having such clunky skills in your rotation simply does not works well.

    Now if they became kits it would not be as clunky, that's true. But do you have any idea how much they would nerf ele if it could use kits? You would be able to have 40 weapon skills and rotations would get even more complex with weapon skills getting nerfed again so that the DPS does not get too high. We've seen where this sort of stuff leads. Ele would be much better off if conjures were removed and the weapon skills were balanced without conjures interfering with that balance. You don't need conjures to be competitive if they balance eles around not having them.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    Making conjured weapons a kit would make this class an even bigger balance mess. Ele has enough weapon skills to balance as it is. Conjures should be removed, so that ele doesn't have to get balanced around unneeded extra skills. It's extra bloat for no reason and makes balancing PvE with PvP performance even more difficult.

    They allready did this with FB and rev so... i am not sure if your argument holds any water.

    What exactly did they do? They didn't add kits or conjures or any other utilities that give more weapon skills. Guardian tomes got removed as utilities a long time ago and got reintroduced as an elite spec. Ele is the profession with the most weapon skills baseline and gets more of them from conjures for no reason really. Then they are also clunky on top of it to add insult to injury. Everything conjures can do could easily be part of the core ele weapon sets.

    They added in more skills for these classes FB by getting books giving it 15 more skills and rev by giving it an wepon swap ability only 10 more skills. Ele dose not have the most skills FB dose as well as eng. They top 3ed party programs that often give guess numbers of what was hit and in what state it was hit. Your missing the fact that conjure weapons have massive cd of 1 min (non elite) with a duration of 30 sec and are not stand alone weapons sets (as in they cant fill a full roll on there own they do one maybe 2 task but stop short of being an complete wepon set). As well as long cast time that in a rotation is game braking something eng kits do not have even books cast time dose not mess up rotate as badly as ele conja weapons.

    Making conja weapons a kit would fix a lot of problems with the ele class and would be the least amount of work for anet devs.

    I'm not missing anything. You are missing the point of my suggestion. The problem with conjures is that you are adding needless skills to a profession that already has the most. Weaver for example doesn't need to have conjures. You rightly said that Firebrand has lots of skills. Well, imagine if FB keeps those skills and then they give it conjures on top of that. That's how ele is atm. How much of a CD conjures have is pretty irrelevant. They still contain skills that the devs balance rotations around and having such clunky skills in your rotation simply does not works well.

    Now if they became kits it would not be as clunky, that's true. But do you have any idea how much they would nerf ele if it could use kits? You would be able to have 40 weapon skills and rotations would get even more complex with weapon skills getting nerfed again so that the DPS does not get too high. We've seen where this sort of stuff leads. Ele would be much better off if conjures were removed and the weapon skills were balanced without conjures interfering with that balance. You don't need conjures to be competitive if they balance eles around not having them.

    So ele needs a means of chasing its wepon attk type during combat. Most classes do this by swaping wepon eng dose this but means of kits ele can kind of do this by using conja weapons but the cast time and cd makes it so ineffective your better off just giving up the ability to changes your attk and hope some one can just cover for you in that moment.
    Ele is right now less of a mages and more of an wepon specialize. It is locked into an wepon and with in that wepon the ele is locked into an attk type. Anet has comply failed at making atuments very enofe to make a good reason for ele to be locked in. Your dagger is going to be melee the few 600+ attks are far weaker and do not even add enofe effects to keep ppl from simply ruining away. Staff attks are often too slow with out any means of letting its attks go any fast in any way. Scepter attks are very well "cone" much like staff they are in some way slow with the lack of means of making them faster (fresh air is more about swaping for attks not the wepon it self). Sword is about the only complete wepon but it still lacks a good ranged attk.
    There is a need for dagger user to have a real ranged attk there a need for staff user to have a fast attk there a need for scepter user to have hard to pivot attk and there a need for sword to have a real ranged attk as well. Conja weapons are the only tool ele has to add real verity to its attk atuments simply fall falt in this roll.

    So there good reasion to ask for conaj wepons to be kits. Ask your self when was the last time you realy used a conaj wepon as an real tool in it self vs just a hold over for 1 trick?

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 7, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    Trying to make ele work at this point is like trying to drive a car with square wheels , there is a reason why MMO companies normally steer clear of hybrid designs..they always end up being a mess to balance as it's quite impossible to make them work without making specialized classes completely redundant.

    The way ele is designed , it cannot work without OP gimmicks/traits.....I don't think you're able to see the great picture.

    Not only they made this mess of a design..they even forced it to play mostly at melee range , nuking it out with all the aoe melee powercreep of other professions , raid bosses and more ..now you suggest to increase dmg...well my friend you need the sustain to deliver that dmg at melee range, enough sustain to resist being oneshotted by powercrepts melee specs in 2019.

    In the same thread you state that old d/d ele was broken as concept , too much sustain for melee combat so...cool, you suggest to increase dmg of ele while lamenting any form of necessary self-sustain for the class with the lowest HP and most complicated design...do you fully understand what you're saying?

    It may sound silly to you...but the truth is the class design is utter garbage , it will never work differently from old cele d/d ele , it's either something close to that...or nothing at all

    You can make any profession overpowered or underpowered just by adjusting the numbers on all the skills. You can adjust both the offensive and defensive numbers, too.

    Also your reading comprehension is terrible. That's not what I said at all.

    Let me put it this way : they designed ele to be a hybrid class able to chime in at any point in any situation and this abitlity to adapt to any situation comes with a heavy price as penalty...on top of lower base stats respect to other professions . Now the introduction of elites and the base skill reworks of other profession puts the whole ele class design really in a terrible spot like....what's the point of having this class in game?

    Ele is no more able to cut its own corner of gameplay in a game where every class is now an hybrid or rather...the base specialized classes have acquired hybrid traits thx to reworks and elites, they're now an effective ele 2.0.

    Now you can keep turning the wheels all you want but fact remains that anything ele currently does..can be done easier and more efficiently on other professions......and in the end of the day we play a game to have fun

    Ele isn't in a terrible spot. At all. The hybrid nature you lament so much doesn't mean they're bad at everything. They're good at everything. They're tied for 3rd place in benchmarks, and they have multiple viable builds for multiple roles in every game modes. The question isn't "why take an ele", it is "why not take an ele?"

    Your "fact" is a load of bull. Snowcrows lists weaver as Best In Slot against Sabetha, Amalgamate, and good for 9 others. Ele's can fulfill 4 different roles in raids. For WvW, there is still no equivalent to what Meteor Shower, FGS, and Ice Bow can accomplish, and no other class can share auras (particularly magnetic and shocking). The wide area heals and boons makes heal ele one of the best professions for carrying pugs and n00bs. The healing build is the best vigor granting profession in the game. The only place where ele is merely O.K. at something is in sPVP.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 7, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    Trying to make ele work at this point is like trying to drive a car with square wheels , there is a reason why MMO companies normally steer clear of hybrid designs..they always end up being a mess to balance as it's quite impossible to make them work without making specialized classes completely redundant.

    The way ele is designed , it cannot work without OP gimmicks/traits.....I don't think you're able to see the great picture.

    Not only they made this mess of a design..they even forced it to play mostly at melee range , nuking it out with all the aoe melee powercreep of other professions , raid bosses and more ..now you suggest to increase dmg...well my friend you need the sustain to deliver that dmg at melee range, enough sustain to resist being oneshotted by powercrepts melee specs in 2019.

    In the same thread you state that old d/d ele was broken as concept , too much sustain for melee combat so...cool, you suggest to increase dmg of ele while lamenting any form of necessary self-sustain for the class with the lowest HP and most complicated design...do you fully understand what you're saying?

    It may sound silly to you...but the truth is the class design is utter garbage , it will never work differently from old cele d/d ele , it's either something close to that...or nothing at all

    You can make any profession overpowered or underpowered just by adjusting the numbers on all the skills. You can adjust both the offensive and defensive numbers, too.

    Also your reading comprehension is terrible. That's not what I said at all.

    Let me put it this way : they designed ele to be a hybrid class able to chime in at any point in any situation and this abitlity to adapt to any situation comes with a heavy price as penalty...on top of lower base stats respect to other professions . Now the introduction of elites and the base skill reworks of other profession puts the whole ele class design really in a terrible spot like....what's the point of having this class in game?

    Ele is no more able to cut its own corner of gameplay in a game where every class is now an hybrid or rather...the base specialized classes have acquired hybrid traits thx to reworks and elites, they're now an effective ele 2.0.

    Now you can keep turning the wheels all you want but fact remains that anything ele currently does..can be done easier and more efficiently on other professions......and in the end of the day we play a game to have fun

    Ele isn't in a terrible spot. At all. The hybrid nature you lament so much doesn't mean they're bad at everything. They're good at everything. They're tied for 3rd place in benchmarks, and they have multiple viable builds for multiple roles in every game modes. The question isn't "why take an ele", it is "why not take an ele?"

    Your "fact" is a load of bull. Snowcrows lists weaver as Best In Slot against Sabetha, Amalgamate, and good for 9 others. Ele's can fulfill 4 different roles in raids. For WvW, there is still no equivalent to what Meteor Shower, FGS, and Ice Bow can accomplish, and no other class can share auras (particularly magnetic and shocking). The wide area heals and boons makes heal ele one of the best professions for carrying pugs and n00bs. The healing build is the best vigor granting profession in the game. The only place where ele is merely O.K. at something is in sPVP.

    Benchmarks is really not a good way to decide whether a class is good or not,

    Meteor shower is literally all eles have where Revs have Hammer and Dwarf, Necros have boon corruption and barrier, firebrands have stability, Scrappers have decent healing and Condi to boon conversion

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    Making conjured weapons a kit would make this class an even bigger balance mess. Ele has enough weapon skills to balance as it is. Conjures should be removed, so that ele doesn't have to get balanced around unneeded extra skills. It's extra bloat for no reason and makes balancing PvE with PvP performance even more difficult.

    They allready did this with FB and rev so... i am not sure if your argument holds any water.

    What exactly did they do? They didn't add kits or conjures or any other utilities that give more weapon skills. Guardian tomes got removed as utilities a long time ago and got reintroduced as an elite spec. Ele is the profession with the most weapon skills baseline and gets more of them from conjures for no reason really. Then they are also clunky on top of it to add insult to injury. Everything conjures can do could easily be part of the core ele weapon sets.

    They added in more skills for these classes FB by getting books giving it 15 more skills and rev by giving it an wepon swap ability only 10 more skills. Ele dose not have the most skills FB dose as well as eng. They top 3ed party programs that often give guess numbers of what was hit and in what state it was hit. Your missing the fact that conjure weapons have massive cd of 1 min (non elite) with a duration of 30 sec and are not stand alone weapons sets (as in they cant fill a full roll on there own they do one maybe 2 task but stop short of being an complete wepon set). As well as long cast time that in a rotation is game braking something eng kits do not have even books cast time dose not mess up rotate as badly as ele conja weapons.

    Making conja weapons a kit would fix a lot of problems with the ele class and would be the least amount of work for anet devs.

    I'm not missing anything. You are missing the point of my suggestion. The problem with conjures is that you are adding needless skills to a profession that already has the most. Weaver for example doesn't need to have conjures. You rightly said that Firebrand has lots of skills. Well, imagine if FB keeps those skills and then they give it conjures on top of that. That's how ele is atm. How much of a CD conjures have is pretty irrelevant. They still contain skills that the devs balance rotations around and having such clunky skills in your rotation simply does not works well.

    Now if they became kits it would not be as clunky, that's true. But do you have any idea how much they would nerf ele if it could use kits? You would be able to have 40 weapon skills and rotations would get even more complex with weapon skills getting nerfed again so that the DPS does not get too high. We've seen where this sort of stuff leads. Ele would be much better off if conjures were removed and the weapon skills were balanced without conjures interfering with that balance. You don't need conjures to be competitive if they balance eles around not having them.

    So ele needs a means of chasing its wepon attk type during combat. Most classes do this by swaping wepon eng dose this but means of kits ele can kind of do this by using conja weapons but the cast time and cd makes it so ineffective your better off just giving up the ability to changes your attk and hope some one can just cover for you in that moment.
    Ele is right now less of a mages and more of an wepon specialize. It is locked into an wepon and with in that wepon the ele is locked into an attk type. Anet has comply failed at making atuments very enofe to make a good reason for ele to be locked in. Your dagger is going to be melee the few 600+ attks are far weaker and do not even add enofe effects to keep ppl from simply ruining away. Staff attks are often too slow with out any means of letting its attks go any fast in any way. Scepter attks are very well "cone" much like staff they are in some way slow with the lack of means of making them faster (fresh air is more about swaping for attks not the wepon it self). Sword is about the only complete wepon but it still lacks a good ranged attk.
    There is a need for dagger user to have a real ranged attk there a need for staff user to have a fast attk there a need for scepter user to have hard to pivot attk and there a need for sword to have a real ranged attk as well. Conja weapons are the only tool ele has to add real verity to its attk atuments simply fall falt in this roll.

    So there good reasion to ask for conaj wepons to be kits. Ask your self when was the last time you realy used a conaj wepon as an real tool in it self vs just a hold over for 1 trick?

    Ele hasn't ever needed a way to change their weapon range. It was all fine until the class got nerfed and all the power crept specs of PoF were releases. Changing range wouldn't be bad though, but that is easily achievable with weapon reworks or a new elite spec that has a weapon with both melee and ranged. You do not need to make conjures into kits and get into the balancing nightmare that can only end with elementalist becoming worse than it has ever been.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    I dunno you but if I design something to be squishy I would give it the tools to avoid damage instead than give it skills/traits that activate only on damage taken on top of melee focused combat. You either face tank dmg or you avoid it...there is no magical solution inbetween , so now shall we give ele : stealth?...taken....blocks?.....taken.

    People tried to go damage build using scepter ...anet nerfed the damage as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People tried to go melee using daggers...anet nerfed damage and sustain as the community considered it unfair to play against
    People now try to go melee using evade sword...anet has started to nerf it because the community consider it unfair to play against

    What about we redesign ele as concept?...too much work you say?...delete it then?.....ha you say it's absurd to suggest so...then drop the whiteknight role and you come up with a solution

    There is no solution that will stop people from complaining.

    Making conja weapons a kit would go a long way to dealing with the main complaints of ppl. It would give ele an wepon swap with out giving it an wepon swap the main complain over all ppl have about the ele class.

    Making conjured weapons a kit would make this class an even bigger balance mess. Ele has enough weapon skills to balance as it is. Conjures should be removed, so that ele doesn't have to get balanced around unneeded extra skills. It's extra bloat for no reason and makes balancing PvE with PvP performance even more difficult.

    They allready did this with FB and rev so... i am not sure if your argument holds any water.

    What exactly did they do? They didn't add kits or conjures or any other utilities that give more weapon skills. Guardian tomes got removed as utilities a long time ago and got reintroduced as an elite spec. Ele is the profession with the most weapon skills baseline and gets more of them from conjures for no reason really. Then they are also clunky on top of it to add insult to injury. Everything conjures can do could easily be part of the core ele weapon sets.

    They added in more skills for these classes FB by getting books giving it 15 more skills and rev by giving it an wepon swap ability only 10 more skills. Ele dose not have the most skills FB dose as well as eng. They top 3ed party programs that often give guess numbers of what was hit and in what state it was hit. Your missing the fact that conjure weapons have massive cd of 1 min (non elite) with a duration of 30 sec and are not stand alone weapons sets (as in they cant fill a full roll on there own they do one maybe 2 task but stop short of being an complete wepon set). As well as long cast time that in a rotation is game braking something eng kits do not have even books cast time dose not mess up rotate as badly as ele conja weapons.

    Making conja weapons a kit would fix a lot of problems with the ele class and would be the least amount of work for anet devs.

    I'm not missing anything. You are missing the point of my suggestion. The problem with conjures is that you are adding needless skills to a profession that already has the most. Weaver for example doesn't need to have conjures. You rightly said that Firebrand has lots of skills. Well, imagine if FB keeps those skills and then they give it conjures on top of that. That's how ele is atm. How much of a CD conjures have is pretty irrelevant. They still contain skills that the devs balance rotations around and having such clunky skills in your rotation simply does not works well.

    Now if they became kits it would not be as clunky, that's true. But do you have any idea how much they would nerf ele if it could use kits? You would be able to have 40 weapon skills and rotations would get even more complex with weapon skills getting nerfed again so that the DPS does not get too high. We've seen where this sort of stuff leads. Ele would be much better off if conjures were removed and the weapon skills were balanced without conjures interfering with that balance. You don't need conjures to be competitive if they balance eles around not having them.

    So ele needs a means of chasing its wepon attk type during combat. Most classes do this by swaping wepon eng dose this but means of kits ele can kind of do this by using conja weapons but the cast time and cd makes it so ineffective your better off just giving up the ability to changes your attk and hope some one can just cover for you in that moment.
    Ele is right now less of a mages and more of an wepon specialize. It is locked into an wepon and with in that wepon the ele is locked into an attk type. Anet has comply failed at making atuments very enofe to make a good reason for ele to be locked in. Your dagger is going to be melee the few 600+ attks are far weaker and do not even add enofe effects to keep ppl from simply ruining away. Staff attks are often too slow with out any means of letting its attks go any fast in any way. Scepter attks are very well "cone" much like staff they are in some way slow with the lack of means of making them faster (fresh air is more about swaping for attks not the wepon it self). Sword is about the only complete wepon but it still lacks a good ranged attk.
    There is a need for dagger user to have a real ranged attk there a need for staff user to have a fast attk there a need for scepter user to have hard to pivot attk and there a need for sword to have a real ranged attk as well. Conja weapons are the only tool ele has to add real verity to its attk atuments simply fall falt in this roll.

    So there good reasion to ask for conaj wepons to be kits. Ask your self when was the last time you realy used a conaj wepon as an real tool in it self vs just a hold over for 1 trick?

    Ele hasn't ever needed a way to change their weapon range. It was all fine until the class got nerfed and all the power crept specs of PoF were releases. Changing range wouldn't be bad though, but that is easily achievable with weapon reworks or a new elite spec that has a weapon with both melee and ranged. You do not need to make conjures into kits and get into the balancing nightmare that can only end with elementalist becoming worse than it has ever been.

    The atuments should be that though and they always needed it. The class always had problems even when it was viewed as being op in the early days of d/d ele in wvw. Yet it was tolerated by the player base because it could not do any thing to siege on walls or to players out side of the old Swirling Winds siege block trick.

    Ele is NOT a mages in gw2 it is a wepon specialized. The roll of atuments was there to changes how the ele attks but it was over all messed up by anet as they simply made copys of skill from atument to atument with only small varying effects.

    Conjures weapons are to ele as eng is to kits but conjures weapons have massive cool downs and longish cast time for there effect. Ele needs a rework to all of its weapons skills to give it a real variation to its attk with in mind that it can only use one wepon at a time OR conjures weapons needs to be more kit like if not comply made into kits. Out side of that any buff any update short of this is pointless.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    Benchmarks is really not a good way to decide whether a class is good or not,

    Meteor shower is literally all eles have where Revs have Hammer and Dwarf, Necros have boon corruption and barrier, firebrands have stability, Scrappers have decent healing and Condi to boon conversion

    They really are. A benchmark doesn't tell the whole story, but it still tells a good one.

    Your complaint about the singularity of a class can be mirrored across every profession in the game. That's how the meta works: the professions on the top have one or two tricks, and they're in the meta because of it. As soon as that trick is nerfed, the class drops out of the meta. For example, Spellbreakers dropped off the face of the Earth in WvW when Winds of Disenchantment was nerfed. For another example, Necromancers went from Best in Slot for every raid boss with multiple targets to only one because Epidemic was cut in half.

    When Ele's had their one trick nerfed (meteor shower and ice storm), they actually lucked out, because they had viable alternatives, and those skills still work well in WvW.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    Ele is in no way in the horrible spot that people here say.

    Ele in WvW zergs is still great if you have any idea of how to position yourself. The new event made it even nicer as you can use ranger stolen skills to give yourself stability and quickness to get those MS out.
    Ele in WvW roaming and PvP have viable builds with fire-weaver or water-weaver. Celestial d/d weaver can still be very nice if you are one of the 3 people that actually put effort into learning it.
    In PvE ele is still meta for fractals and raids with power sword weaver. Staff is viable, tempest is viable... not optimal, but viable...

    There is a lot that can be done to improve certain things with ele.
    A blunt increase in dmg on weapons might not be it, but trait reworks/reviews/pass would definitely make possible for different playstyles that are just not viable at the moment. Core ele need some advantage over the elite specs, and that should come from traits, by accessing more elemental traitlines, core ele should have something to be competitive or at least a viable option.

    Ele has potential for a massive amount of versatility and specialization. Since its baseline is so raw (low hp, low armor, low dmg modifiers on weapons) traitlines should be the key to achieve high potential at certain things at the cost of having nothing else... A glass canon ele, traited fully for offense, should be able to hit like a canon at the cost of not having defenses or buffs, while a sturdy ele (water/earth/arcane) should be able to tank and hold his own at the cost of having very little dmg...

  • solemn.9608solemn.9608 Member ✭✭

    Gentlemen. There is a solution here you’re not seeing :lol:

    Fire sw/d weaver was arguably a little
    bit OP in the right hands before this upcoming patch. Now, good players running this build will be nigh unstoppable 1v1 and 1v2.

    Anet killed staff ele, and I’m sad about it, but I’m pretty sure they just buffed a build that REALLY did not need to be buffed :lol: 7000 burn ticks after only a few seconds, coming your way very soon, and bonus: now with reduced primordial stance cooldown

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @solemn.9608 said:
    Gentlemen. There is a solution here you’re not seeing :lol:

    Fire sw/d weaver was arguably a little
    bit OP in the right hands before this upcoming patch. Now, good players running this build will be nigh unstoppable 1v1 and 1v2.

    Anet killed staff ele, and I’m sad about it, but I’m pretty sure they just buffed a build that REALLY did not need to be buffed :lol: 7000 burn ticks after only a few seconds, coming your way very soon, and bonus: now with reduced primordial stance cooldown

    That's what I'm trying to say. You might lose cleanse from fire auras, but sun spot and primordial stance will burn a lot more.

    On top of that a lot of pvp/roaming builds got nerfed and there's a potential removal of health on rampage (notes say toughness, but rampage doesn't grant toughness) which makes warr/engi even easier to kill during that time with a condi build.

    Summer's gonna be extra hot this year.

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