Heal build? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Heal build?

Anyone know a pretty good heal or condi cleanse build for eles?
I am using tempest d/s at the moment, but I would like to be able to out cleanse a scrapper

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Comments

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgEgEWGBzh1wYYl4YNl2qB-zVJYjRD/ZkkEoaFgkPJhyG4t43mF-w

    Take feel the burn for even more cleanses.

    (edited the blinding ashes out - it's an awful trait)

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Overload water, Staff 5, heal shout, and there's a bunch of traits that cleanse.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There a few you realy should thow in roots if you want to bring something unique to say a pvp fight though. Scraper / FB are far better healing / clear supports.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    Some of those trait choices are a bit strange. For a healing/cleanse build, why would you give up on Unstable Conduit for Gale Song? More auras = more heals = more cleanses.

    I would choose Pyromancer's Puissance instead of Blinding Ashes for more might, which can be stacked to 25 and shared with allies during a fight using Fire #4.

    In my opinion, Stop, Drop, and Roll is better than Soothing Ice, because you can cleanse burns and chills in a shorter amount of time, and with Antitoxin runes, you can cleanse one more condition with it.

    Everything else is cool. That's all I wanted to say.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    @Dahir.4158 said:

    Some of those trait choices are a bit strange. For a healing/cleanse build, why would you give up on Unstable Conduit for Gale Song? More auras = more heals = more cleanses.

    I would choose Pyromancer's Puissance instead of Blinding Ashes for more might, which can be stacked to 25 and shared with allies during a fight using Fire #4.

    In my opinion, Stop, Drop, and Roll is better than Soothing Ice, because you can cleanse burns and chills in a shorter amount of time, and with Antitoxin runes, you can cleanse one more condition with it.

    Everything else is cool. That's all I wanted to say.

    The only reason for gale song is 10 man effect and the fact that unstable conduit gives you an aura every 10 sec in the best case. All 3 traits have their use tbh so it's more-less the personal choice (although middle one is usually better with regen/vigor on shouts which is not worth in large scale, however, the endurance gain doesnt have an icd). You'll get more cleanses from running conjurer with earth shield instead of 3rd utility if you really wanted to minmax cleanses anyway.

    I guess I forgot the fact that BA in fire has cooldown on caster instead of cooldown on target which makes is kinda worthless.

    As for soothing ice, I just like it because it gives good uptime on frost aura which adds to the condi spam and reduces incoming damage. SD&R has a big cooldown and not removing those condies instantly gives a chance to scrappers and firebrands to convert them to very strong boons. So half the amount of cleanses (during 20+ sec long fights) for chill on enemy backline and lower damage taken seems rational to me. None of these are game changing so I don't see a reason to always use just one.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Elementalist healers can cleanse conditions pretty well...

    But the problem is that it’s also kinda bad. There’s plenty of reasons why but to sum them all up, it’s because elementalist is a much better pure healer than it is a cleanser.

    Powerful aura and Tempestious aria DO NOT stack and in fact gimps the entire synergy. Your 10 man shouts only apply to 6 people and it’s just broken...not in a good way.

    Going fire for just one trait is also just a huge waste.

    I have the pure healing build stored somewhere in my computer and I’ll tell you now that it’s a much much more effective build considering that your Zerg should already have scrappers that can not only cleanse better than you but convert those conditions into boons...

  • "out cleanse a scrapper" is actually pretty hard, unless it's a power-scrapper. ^^
    At least in our WvW guild raids the anti-condi specced tempests cleanse a lot less than the scrappers.

    However, the reason is actually the scrapper reducing the tempest cleanse.
    Since they have multiple low-CD cleanse-pulsing fields with a large radius, which can run in parallel and a lot of blasts for light fields, they cleanse a bit quicker, but also more consistently. Also, since healscrapper grant regeneration on every cleanse your "cleansing water" will have a hard time.

    When running with 20 people and having 1 scrapper and 1 tempest, the tempest often had around 80% of the scrapper in cleansing (depending on terrain, less when moving a lot). When there was a second scrapper the tempest often would drop to 50% or below of the scrappers.

    Also, converting into boons and adding regeneration is in my opinion the superior cleanse, even if tempests would cleanse more.
    So, as I see it, focusing on heal/aura would be a bigger advantage.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dediggefedde.4961 said:
    "out cleanse a scrapper" is actually pretty hard, unless it's a power-scrapper. ^^
    At least in our WvW guild raids the anti-condi specced tempests cleanse a lot less than the scrappers.

    However, the reason is actually the scrapper reducing the tempest cleanse.
    Since they have multiple low-CD cleanse-pulsing fields with a large radius, which can run in parallel and a lot of blasts for light fields, they cleanse a bit quicker, but also more consistently. Also, since healscrapper grant regeneration on every cleanse your "cleansing water" will have a hard time.

    When running with 20 people and having 1 scrapper and 1 tempest, the tempest often had around 80% of the scrapper in cleansing (depending on terrain, less when moving a lot). When there was a second scrapper the tempest often would drop to 50% or below of the scrappers.

    Also, converting into boons and adding regeneration is in my opinion the superior cleanse, even if tempests would cleanse more.
    So, as I see it, focusing on heal/aura would be a bigger advantage.

    It's all about timing. You need to use Water Overload during hard pushes and anticipate when the group will need the cleanses, instead of randomly using shouts/skills. Keeping this in mind will definitely out-cleanse scrappers, though not all the time.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    But if we go Fire trait instead of Earth or Arcane, we will be losing alot of survivability and heals/buffs like regen, protection, stability, diamond skin, etc.Giving up all these just for the cleanse?

    As Ele, we are very squishy, we need as much survivability and buffs as possible. A dead Tempest is useless no matter how good and effective you are.

    Besides Scrapper can do a much better job on cleasing as we only cleanse condi but Scrapper convert them to boons. This alone we can never be a better cleanser than them.

    IMO, we are more effective as pure healers. Leave the cleansing to others.

  • zengara.8301zengara.8301 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2019

    Thank you everyone Yeah found a pretty impressive build that can, and usually does, out cleanse a scrapper (unless if I mess up badly :b)
    I also went with earth instead of fire which lets me stand until commander dies under normal circumstances, but I can however try fire out to see if the cleansing is a massive boost.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mil.3562 said:
    But if we go Fire trait instead of Earth or Arcane, we will be losing alot of survivability and heals/buffs like regen, protection, stability, diamond skin, etc.Giving up all these just for the cleanse?

    As Ele, we are very squishy, we need as much survivability and buffs as possible. A dead Tempest is useless no matter how good and effective you are.

    Besides Scrapper can do a much better job on cleasing as we only cleanse condi but Scrapper convert them to boons. This alone we can never be a better cleanser than them.

    IMO, we are more effective as pure healers. Leave the cleansing to others.

    You already get all of those from other classes (and diamond skin is worthless when you have so many cleanses anyway), this isnt a solo build, it's a zerg build. I do agree that scrapper is better at cleansing, but it got nerfed several times so with lack of scrappers in the squad, this is very useful build.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭✭

    If it’s for pvp 5v5 and u really want to play support ele I feel staff is the best if u have ok map awareness. Cus u can to some nice peals for team with staff

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    But if we go Fire trait instead of Earth or Arcane, we will be losing alot of survivability and heals/buffs like regen, protection, stability, diamond skin, etc.Giving up all these just for the cleanse?

    As Ele, we are very squishy, we need as much survivability and buffs as possible. A dead Tempest is useless no matter how good and effective you are.

    Besides Scrapper can do a much better job on cleasing as we only cleanse condi but Scrapper convert them to boons. This alone we can never be a better cleanser than them.

    IMO, we are more effective as pure healers. Leave the cleansing to others.

    You already get all of those from other classes (and diamond skin is worthless when you have so many cleanses anyway), this isnt a solo build, it's a zerg build. I do agree that scrapper is better at cleansing, but it got nerfed several times so with lack of scrappers in the squad, this is very useful build.

    I wouldnt say diamond skin is useless in a zerg. You will find that it really helps when you need it.

    Not to forget, there are power builds in a zerg too, you will need some personal protection and heals for better survivability. For me, i wouldnt want to 100% depend on my teammates to suvive.

    Without the Fire trait you can out cleansed a Scrapper? Show me how. I am not dissing here.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019

    In terms of straight healing, arcane, water and tempest are the traitlines you want to run. Earth is good if you are an eel just getting us to the Zerg scene because it helps keep you alive personally. But at a certain point you should lose the training wheels and go arcane over earth. Reason is because double geyser is so strong that if your Zerg is under big pressure and taking downs, these will almost instantly revive them even while under immense pressure or during an enemy push

    The dodges from evasive arcana is also a good 6k AOE heal, along with a few other perks from arcane (reduced cool down on attunements and water overload)

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    The dodges from evasive arcana is also a good 6k AOE heal, along with a few other perks from arcane (reduced cool down on attunements and water overload)

    How do you achieve 6k?
    Assuming 1900hp and 15% from water, I get 3985.
    Maybe with 2 sigils...

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mil.3562 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    But if we go Fire trait instead of Earth or Arcane, we will be losing alot of survivability and heals/buffs like regen, protection, stability, diamond skin, etc.Giving up all these just for the cleanse?

    As Ele, we are very squishy, we need as much survivability and buffs as possible. A dead Tempest is useless no matter how good and effective you are.

    Besides Scrapper can do a much better job on cleasing as we only cleanse condi but Scrapper convert them to boons. This alone we can never be a better cleanser than them.

    IMO, we are more effective as pure healers. Leave the cleansing to others.

    You already get all of those from other classes (and diamond skin is worthless when you have so many cleanses anyway), this isnt a solo build, it's a zerg build. I do agree that scrapper is better at cleansing, but it got nerfed several times so with lack of scrappers in the squad, this is very useful build.

    I wouldnt say diamond skin is useless in a zerg. You will find that it really helps when you need it.

    Not to forget, there are power builds in a zerg too, you will need some personal protection and heals for better survivability. For me, i wouldnt want to 100% depend on my teammates to suvive.

    Without the Fire trait you can out cleansed a Scrapper? Show me how. I am not dissing here.

    You cant, you need fire spec to outcleanse it. But even then, you wouldnt need diamond skin because CC and revival from arcane is much more useful and condies get cleansed almost instantly by fb/scrapper anyway. Earth is a useless spec.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    But if we go Fire trait instead of Earth or Arcane, we will be losing alot of survivability and heals/buffs like regen, protection, stability, diamond skin, etc.Giving up all these just for the cleanse?

    As Ele, we are very squishy, we need as much survivability and buffs as possible. A dead Tempest is useless no matter how good and effective you are.

    Besides Scrapper can do a much better job on cleasing as we only cleanse condi but Scrapper convert them to boons. This alone we can never be a better cleanser than them.

    IMO, we are more effective as pure healers. Leave the cleansing to others.

    You already get all of those from other classes (and diamond skin is worthless when you have so many cleanses anyway), this isnt a solo build, it's a zerg build. I do agree that scrapper is better at cleansing, but it got nerfed several times so with lack of scrappers in the squad, this is very useful build.

    I wouldnt say diamond skin is useless in a zerg. You will find that it really helps when you need it.

    Not to forget, there are power builds in a zerg too, you will need some personal protection and heals for better survivability. For me, i wouldnt want to 100% depend on my teammates to suvive.

    Without the Fire trait you can out cleansed a Scrapper? Show me how. I am not dissing here.

    You cant, you need fire spec to outcleanse it. But even then, you wouldnt need diamond skin because CC and revival from arcane is much more useful and condies get cleansed almost instantly by fb/scrapper anyway. Earth is a useless spec.

    Actually that question in my post is directed at OP.
    And not just diamond skin, you forgot earth gives 4-5 sec of -40% damage protection to you and your allies from auras.

    @zengara.8301 said:
    Thank you everyone Yeah found a pretty impressive build that can, and usually does, out cleanse a scrapper (unless if I mess up badly :b)
    I also went with earth instead of fire which lets me stand until commander dies under normal circumstances, but I can however try fire out to see if the cleansing is a massive boost.

    He said he went into Earth instead of Fire and still usually out cleanse scrapper, I know it's not possible and thought perhaps there is some kind of secret build?

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    The dodges from evasive arcana is also a good 6k AOE heal, along with a few other perks from arcane (reduced cool down on attunements and water overload)

    How do you achieve 6k?
    Assuming 1900hp and 15% from water, I get 3985.
    Maybe with 2 sigils...

    You should have about 80% outgoing healing power...and with squad buffs should be peaking at 100%. So that 3k heal should be healing for 6k.

    To get this you need

    1) Bountiful Maintence Oil (about 12.5%)
    2) Delicious Rice Balls (10%)
    3) Water trait (15%)
    4) Sigil of Transference (10%)
    5) Sigil of Benevolence (12.5%)
    6) monk runes (20%)

    This puts you at 80%...then u have other raid buffs which will push you to 100 (like healing Oasis)

  • Okay so i just went to build editor since i couldn't find the link on my computer.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGRAYlRwcYMsGWJmyXXtaA-zxIYwogvMSKBquA89jEKbg3ifbWA-e

    It's very straight forward. But everything has been painstakingly optimized so that you are getting the most heal you possibly can, while also making value of every trait in a zerg setting.

    First thing to note, is that your most important skills are overload water, and Wash the pain away. These two are MEGA heals, With Wash the pain away healing for a maximum of 150,000 Health across 10 players. Overload Water is essentially your Regen fuel, and it's what you use to stack regens, along with Flash Freeze during a push. Not only that but it's also is a mega heal that heals for a maximum of120,000 health across 10 players (This includes the regen...rough estimate)

    Next thing to note is Soothing mist and Regen. Soothing Mist will tick for 900 health at 80% Outgoing, and around 1k at 100%. Your regen will also tick for about 600 - 900 most of the time. So passively, you can heal upto 25,000 health per secondor more depending on how well you maintain regen and how well your soothing mist is spread across your squad. Typically, you want to be in your own subgroup to take full advantage of Soothing Mists ability to apply to up to more than 5 people (The theoretical maximum is 13 people.) If you are in your own subgroup...play carefully...since you won't have any buffs coming your way to help you survive on a personal level. To be a real healer u gotta make the big sacrifice here and heal your group at the expense of your own survivability. If you aren't confident you can do this, then stick to a subgroup with a firebrand and scrapper inside. 15 man subgroups work very well for you also.

    Then you have the Geysers for excellent Resurrection, one from the traitline and one on staff 3. I like to drop these ahead of the group sometimes as we push so that anyone that enters downstate just gets auto rezzed. Also if we are under HEAVY siege fire and we are murderballed, i will use this when players start entering downstate...Sometimes it's good to let someone die just so u could use the rez skill for the healing on other party members.

    The shouts...Magnetic Aura is a utility you should use right before pushing or retreating to relieve ranged pirate attack. It also heals for 30k. Flash Freeze is regen fuel that will heal for 30k and apply about 35k in regen. Superspeed is for pushing...really important! And Rebound is something you should use by default while pushing. It's a mega heal that can heal for upto 140k, and serves as a good precaution for players that might enter downstate. It shouldn't be used to prevent a players death however, and should only be used as a precautionary heal, in which you use it during every push...usually a second or two into the fight.

  • Very interesting, although your numbers are not easy to read.
    Saying magnetic aura heals for 30k can lead to misinterpretation. It's 3k 10 targets. I suppose most readers will understand, I took a few minutes to figure out 😉

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:
    Very interesting, although your numbers are not easy to read.
    Saying magnetic aura heals for 30k can lead to misinterpretation. It's 3k 10 targets. I suppose most readers will understand, I took a few minutes to figure out 😉

    Yep. My line of thinking is that because of how the targeting differs by very wide margins, 5, 10 and 13, and 13+... it’s easier to explain in total amount rather than per target to see how much it actually heal a squad,

    so for example, the application of regen can effect 1 person or 20 people...so to say it does a potential total of X healing is the most accurate way to describe its healing output.

    Sorry if it seemed confusing.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mil.3562 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    But if we go Fire trait instead of Earth or Arcane, we will be losing alot of survivability and heals/buffs like regen, protection, stability, diamond skin, etc.Giving up all these just for the cleanse?

    As Ele, we are very squishy, we need as much survivability and buffs as possible. A dead Tempest is useless no matter how good and effective you are.

    Besides Scrapper can do a much better job on cleasing as we only cleanse condi but Scrapper convert them to boons. This alone we can never be a better cleanser than them.

    IMO, we are more effective as pure healers. Leave the cleansing to others.

    You already get all of those from other classes (and diamond skin is worthless when you have so many cleanses anyway), this isnt a solo build, it's a zerg build. I do agree that scrapper is better at cleansing, but it got nerfed several times so with lack of scrappers in the squad, this is very useful build.

    I wouldnt say diamond skin is useless in a zerg. You will find that it really helps when you need it.

    Not to forget, there are power builds in a zerg too, you will need some personal protection and heals for better survivability. For me, i wouldnt want to 100% depend on my teammates to suvive.

    Without the Fire trait you can out cleansed a Scrapper? Show me how. I am not dissing here.

    You cant, you need fire spec to outcleanse it. But even then, you wouldnt need diamond skin because CC and revival from arcane is much more useful and condies get cleansed almost instantly by fb/scrapper anyway. Earth is a useless spec.

    Actually that question in my post is directed at OP.
    And not just diamond skin, you forgot earth gives 4-5 sec of -40% damage protection to you and your allies from auras.

    @zengara.8301 said:
    Thank you everyone Yeah found a pretty impressive build that can, and usually does, out cleanse a scrapper (unless if I mess up badly :b)
    I also went with earth instead of fire which lets me stand until commander dies under normal circumstances, but I can however try fire out to see if the cleansing is a massive boost.

    He said he went into Earth instead of Fire and still usually out cleanse scrapper, I know it's not possible and thought perhaps there is some kind of secret build?

    Protection is usually covered with earth overload, aftershock and arcane traits on top of fb/scrapper so taking a whole spec just for 1 trait that's not even that good is a huge waste. 40% prot only works for tempests (and engies because they have same trait), the effect doesnt get shared.

    Diamond skin can be useful in solo scenarios, but even then there's a lot better cleanse options. Specing into self sustain as a support is pretty bad as well.

    As for cleansing with earth instead of fire it's simply impossible. You don't even have that many aoe cleanses outside of water+arcane or water+fire spec combos. OP probably made a mistake somewhere or he had a lot of self cleanses instead of group cleanses which means nothing.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019

    Edit : made a mistake delete this comment

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:
    Very interesting, although your numbers are not easy to read.
    Saying magnetic aura heals for 30k can lead to misinterpretation. It's 3k 10 targets. I suppose most readers will understand, I took a few minutes to figure out 😉

    Yep. My line of thinking is that because of how the targeting differs by very wide margins, 5, 10 and 13, and 13+... it’s easier to explain in total amount rather than per target to see how much it actually heal a squad,

    so for example, the application of regen can effect 1 person or 20 people...so to say it does a potential total of X healing is the most accurate way to describe its healing output.

    Sorry if it seemed confusing.

    Sshhh... be careful when you mention big numbers. ANet may just take a quick glance and misunderstand them and say " Oh Yes! ", then happily pulls out the nerf hammer, " Hulk smash!! "

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    Most Scrappers I have been with weren't running Antitoxin. Like I was at 1000+ cleanses and they were still at 400-500. So surely you can outcleanse these ones.

    Tempest has faster cleansing because it doesn't come in pulses, but in the long run, a Scrapper should win because it has almost 100% cleanses' uptime so whenever a Condi bomb is there, there is an answer... also there is an answer for minimal Condis by roamers around the fight.

    Going Earth line has drawbacks in zergs. You lose Powerful Aura so to cleanse on Regen from Invigorating Torrents, which also comes at a 10-man buff/condi cost.

    From playing Firebrand for a while, F3 can keep up Protection for over 30s, let alone Vuln. cleanses and Shield #4 so a Tempest's Prot isn't really going to change much, especially that one skill from a Minstrel FB F3 has longer Prot uptime than a 100% Concentration Tempest.

    Best options were Fire-Water for cleanses or Arcane-Water for CC. Earth is mostly run in small groups, solo situations or meme'ing time.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • I'm gonna just state this for the record and set this straight.

    Overload Water, on it's own with no cleansing traits or anti-toxin, will cleanse up to 40 conditions every time you use it.

    Aura's you apply with cleansing from both Smothering Aura's, Cleansing Water, and Invigorating Torrents with Anti-Toxin will cleanse only up to a maximum of 20 conditions...

    1) This trait selection GIMPS your entire ability to heal a squad (Cuts your potential HPS by more than 50%)
    2) This trait selection means that your only realistic source of aura's are actually shouts. You can't have both Powerful aura and Cleansing Water. It's one or the other.

    In other words what i'm saying is that Overload Water is the real thing that is cleansing on a massive scale. If you have Overload Water with Cleansing Water and Anti-Toxin, you will cleanse over 100 conditions with just this alone. You would have cleansed more conditions spamming overload water and nothing else, than you would have cycling through all your shout's with aura's on the build previously mentioned. You also get the same results with Steki's build in terms of using Tempestious Aria and smothering aura's, Powerful aura over Cleansing Water, Except in that case, your shout's are cleansing for 20 conditions, while your aura's only cleanse for roughly 10, with an additional 15 when you transmute. This trait selection is better in that it only gimps your heal ability by about 25 percent (Mostly due to gear choice)

    Overload Water spamming is the real key to actually getting lots of cleansing. I mentioned this in another thread somewhere, but i was able to be 3rd ranking on cleanse meter, not to far behind from scrappers (I remember the first scrapper had 150 cleanses, the second had 140 and i had 125) and this was with NO anti-toxin, no cleansing ANYTHING traited. Like Auburn said, all the cleansing is concentrated in short bursts rather than spread out more evenly like scrapper.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    I'm gonna just state this for the record and set this straight.

    Overload Water, on it's own with no cleansing traits or anti-toxin, will cleanse up to 40 conditions every time you use it.

    Aura's you apply with cleansing from both Smothering Aura's, Cleansing Water, and Invigorating Torrents with Anti-Toxin will cleanse only up to a maximum of 20 conditions...

    1) This trait selection GIMPS your entire ability to heal a squad (Cuts your potential HPS by more than 50%)
    2) This trait selection means that your only realistic source of aura's are actually shouts. You can't have both Powerful aura and Cleansing Water. It's one or the other.

    In other words what i'm saying is that Overload Water is the real thing that is cleansing on a massive scale. If you have Overload Water with Cleansing Water and Anti-Toxin, you will cleanse over 100 conditions with just this alone. You would have cleansed more conditions spamming overload water and nothing else, than you would have cycling through all your shout's with aura's on the build previously mentioned. You also get the same results with Steki's build in terms of using Tempestious Aria and smothering aura's, Powerful aura over Cleansing Water, Except in that case, your shout's are cleansing for 20 conditions, while your aura's only cleanse for roughly 10, with an additional 15 when you transmute. This trait selection is better in that it only gimps your heal ability by about 25 percent (Mostly due to gear choice)

    Overload Water spamming is the real key to actually getting lots of cleansing. I mentioned this in another thread somewhere, but i was able to be 3rd ranking on cleanse meter, not to far behind from scrappers (I remember the first scrapper had 150 cleanses, the second had 140 and i had 125) and this was with NO anti-toxin, no cleansing ANYTHING traited. Like Auburn said, all the cleansing is concentrated in short bursts rather than spread out more evenly like scrapper.

    You're not losing any heals tbh. Not taking regen+vigor on aura doesn't reduce your heals by 25% because regen is provided by all supports and you all "fight" for those heals since that's how boons work. Not to mention that you regain that healing from 10 man shouts.

    Water OL is very easy to interrupt while auras/shouts are almost instant, making the fire build with 5 man aura share and 10 man shouts arguably the best choice for cleansing.

    Cleansing water has no use without arcane spec, especially since they added 10 man shout trait which is always better than regen on auras in large scale.

    Basically: big aoe auras+cleanse on aura > small aoe auras that give regen+cleanse on regen, simply because you affect smaller amount of people. Not to mention the other aura benefits as well as rebound.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The up and coming anytoxic rune update going to kill clear tempest for sure there aura healing and root healing sadly there no good rune set for these 2 build types. An healing ele build already hitting the over heal mark on a lot of skills. I just hope they look into giving tempest or ele core the ability to get more out of its auras.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭

    I have been running with zergs for the longest time taking the Water, Earth and Tempest trait lines and usually I am the last person standing, or downed in a surprise push.

    And many times after a long fight, like maybe 25 vs 25, I got whispers thanking me for the heals. I guess full heals on Earth trait works for me. I'll leave the cleansing to Scrapper and FB. Btw, I have a fully ascended Minstrel Anti-toxin Scrapper and FB as well. But, I just don't enjoy playing FB. I do love Scrapper though but I shelved her for a while because of the recent big nerf. Last night, I went back to my Tempest and had a great time, almost forgetting how fun it was to play a healing bot :D

    I guess to each her own.

  • You're missing one of the best healing traits in the game, Geyser revive in Arcane...

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Elementalist healers can cleanse conditions pretty well...

    But the problem is that it’s also kinda bad. There’s plenty of reasons why but to sum them all up, it’s because elementalist is a much better pure healer than it is a cleanser.

    Powerful aura and Tempestious aria DO NOT stack and in fact gimps the entire synergy. Your 10 man shouts only apply to 6 people and it’s just broken...not in a good way.

    Going fire for just one trait is also just a huge waste.

    I have the pure healing build stored somewhere in my computer and I’ll tell you now that it’s a much much more effective build considering that your Zerg should already have scrappers that can not only cleanse better than you but convert those conditions into boons...

    Can you tell me how long this has been a thing?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Elementalist healers can cleanse conditions pretty well...

    But the problem is that it’s also kinda bad. There’s plenty of reasons why but to sum them all up, it’s because elementalist is a much better pure healer than it is a cleanser.

    Powerful aura and Tempestious aria DO NOT stack and in fact gimps the entire synergy. Your 10 man shouts only apply to 6 people and it’s just broken...not in a good way.

    Going fire for just one trait is also just a huge waste.

    I have the pure healing build stored somewhere in my computer and I’ll tell you now that it’s a much much more effective build considering that your Zerg should already have scrappers that can not only cleanse better than you but convert those conditions into boons...

    Can you tell me how long this has been a thing?

    Are you referring to the fact that aria and powerful aura don’t stack? Ive only known about it for a month or so now ever since I questioned the synergy. Very few seem to know Before hand but there was no documentation on the wiki.

    What happens is that you use a shout, the aura you grant yourself should proc powerful aura to 5 others (on top of the 10 already chosen from the shout). It does this but it selects the same targets as the shouts auras and since the game calculates it at the same time aria just overrides the powerful aura, making it useless on shouts. On top of that, even though powerful aura SHOULD apply the aura twice to at least 6 people it doesn't "Double Proc" so you don't get a double heal from elemental bastion...which would have actually made powerful aura useful but that doesn't work either. Powerful Aura is literately only equivalent to an additional 18k heals every 20 seconds (From using attunements/elemental Bastion). Meanwhile...Soothing Power is an equivalent to an extra 130,000 heal in 20 seconds. Do the math which one would you think is more valuable?

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I bet its something they never thought about and considered.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Elementalist healers can cleanse conditions pretty well...

    But the problem is that it’s also kinda bad. There’s plenty of reasons why but to sum them all up, it’s because elementalist is a much better pure healer than it is a cleanser.

    Powerful aura and Tempestious aria DO NOT stack and in fact gimps the entire synergy. Your 10 man shouts only apply to 6 people and it’s just broken...not in a good way.

    Going fire for just one trait is also just a huge waste.

    I have the pure healing build stored somewhere in my computer and I’ll tell you now that it’s a much much more effective build considering that your Zerg should already have scrappers that can not only cleanse better than you but convert those conditions into boons...

    Can you tell me how long this has been a thing?

    Are you referring to the fact that aria and powerful aura don’t stack? Ive only known about it for a month or so now ever since I questioned the synergy. Very few seem to know Before hand but there was no documentation on the wiki.

    What happens is that you use a shout, the aura you grant yourself should proc powerful aura to 5 others (on top of the 10 already chosen from the shout). It does this but it selects the same targets as the shouts auras and since the game calculates it at the same time aria just overrides the powerful aura, making it useless on shouts. On top of that, even though powerful aura SHOULD apply the aura twice to at least 6 people it doesn't "Double Proc" so you don't get a double heal from elemental bastion...which would have actually made powerful aura useful but that doesn't work either. Powerful Aura is literately only equivalent to an additional 18k heals every 20 seconds (From using attunements/elemental Bastion). Meanwhile...Soothing Power is an equivalent to an extra 130,000 heal in 20 seconds. Do the math which one would you think is more valuable?

    That's why you use powerful aura only in melee builds, especially the ones using fire spec because of easy access to auras. Most of the time you'll be overhealing anyway so aura effect on 5 allies becomes more valuable than passive regen. You're forgetting that you have 2 passive aura procs in water and tempest as well as 2 auras on d/w and even 2 more if you use traited conjured shield.

    When healing comes from 2-4 sources in each party, unique effects become a lot more valuable, especially if healers can heal more than 5 people already.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @steki.1478 said:
    That's why you use powerful aura only in melee builds, especially the ones using fire spec because of easy access to auras. Most of the time you'll be overhealing anyway so aura effect on 5 allies becomes more valuable than passive regen. You're forgetting that you have 2 passive aura procs in water and tempest as well as 2 auras on d/w and even 2 more if you use traited conjured shield.

    When healing comes from 2-4 sources in each party, unique effects become a lot more valuable, especially if healers can heal more than 5 people already.

    I'm not really dissing Powerful Aura. It's got it's place in certain builds, that make it generally more useful in lower scale 5 man or less content. But when we are talking Zerg setting...15+? It's absolutely over shadowed by Soothing Power...Numbers don't lie and there is no debate. Soothing Mist Alone with Soothing Power heals for a maximum of 260,000 Health in the course of 20 seconds on a BIS Healing Build. That's 13k Heals Per Second only from Soothing Mist

    If you want to talk about "Over-healing", you have to talk about any abilities that do "Over-damage" "Over-Buffing" or "Over-Cleansing" It's all about real estate. If you can cleanse 100 conditions, but there's only 30 conditions on your zerg? Than you are just cleansing 30 conditions and over cleansing 70 of them. Over cleansing also has a much bigger problem with Real estate because of competing cleansers. If everyone in a 30 man is cleansing 100 conditions, than your cleansing 1 condition and over cleansing 99 conditions.

    If you're build does 40,000 damage in a single burst skill, but the enemy player has only 10,000 health, than you are over-damaging by 30,000. Why invest in more damage modifiers when you could go sustain? Or support? Until that 40,000 damage drops to maybe 20,000 damage? If your zerg is hitting the enemy zerg for 10,000 damage per hit, then the players die so fast, that maybe only 3 people actually score the kill, while the rest of your zerg actually has no opportunity to do anything. This is damage real estate, and it exists as a real thing. Watch this video for example. Risen Howl and a Weaver do so much damage in the second clip, so fast, that the majority of the rest of the zerg is doing only 2k dps. Tell me does it make sense for 1 person to do 50k dps and everyone else 2k, when you could get the same result with everyone doing 8k dps?

    Over buffing is when you apply buffs like Protection or Stability or Resistance, but there is nothing happening to which the buffs actually have an effect....So if you have Stability but you aren't CC'd, then the Stability was useless in that situation. Likewise with Protection and resistance. Over-Buffing is rare because there is an extremely high turnover of buffs and corruptions, that it's almost always useful or never even used in less than a second intervals. Overbuffing is probably the best thing you can do for a zerg because it means you'll have more of said buff to protect you from being stripped.

    And over healing? Well if you aren't taking damage than you're just overhealing...but this is the same with any heal skill. Using Frost aura on a zerg that isn't taking any damage is an overheal. It's all about heal real estate and how much healing your zerg actually needs at the time. The real question is can you actually heal your zerg when they need it the most which is when they are taking massive damage in the kitten with no lube? Are you gonna be the healer that can barely pump out 3k heals per second, or are you gonna be the healer that can pump out 15k Heals per second when the zerg really needs it?

    The point is that talking about "Over-Healing" or "Over-anything" is kind of a moot, that has no significance because everything at some point in time deals with real estate issues.

    POST EDIT:
    Try this exercise the next time you use your cleansing build. Using ArcDPS, you can find out how much cleansing you did over an engagment right? So lets say a fight lasted for 3 minutes, and you cleansed about 280 conditions. Sounds great. Now go in and count the cleansing potential of each cleanse ability that you have on your build, and then divide it over the amount of times you could have used it on your build in those 3 minutes. So for example, if Overload Water can cleanse up to 100 conditions on your build, you take 3 minutes (180 seconds), and divide it by 17 seconds (The cooldown of Overload Water), and then multiply that number by 100. In this case it's Approximately 10 (The number of times you could have potentially used Overload Water in the engagment). So 10x100 is 1000 conditions you could have potentially cleansed in those 3 minutes, which means you probably OVER-CLEANSED by 720 conditions...

    Do this exercise with all of your condition cleanse abilities that you used in the engagement, and then see how much you are over-cleansing for. You then take the ratio of the amount of cleanses you did, versus how much cleanses you could have potentially done, and that will tell you how much value your cleanses/build actually give to your zerg. If your ratio is for example only 28% efficient like the example above, than you should be trying to reallocate traits and skills in your build to balance that ratio, until you are working at 100% efficiency (It's actually impossible to reach such a ratio, but ideally you want to aim for it.)

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    That's why you use powerful aura only in melee builds, especially the ones using fire spec because of easy access to auras. Most of the time you'll be overhealing anyway so aura effect on 5 allies becomes more valuable than passive regen. You're forgetting that you have 2 passive aura procs in water and tempest as well as 2 auras on d/w and even 2 more if you use traited conjured shield.

    When healing comes from 2-4 sources in each party, unique effects become a lot more valuable, especially if healers can heal more than 5 people already.

    I'm not really dissing Powerful Aura. It's got it's place in certain builds, that make it generally more useful in lower scale 5 man or less content. But when we are talking Zerg setting...15+? It's absolutely over shadowed by Soothing Power...Numbers don't lie and there is no debate. Soothing Mist Alone with Soothing Power heals for a maximum of 260,000 Health in the course of 20 seconds on a BIS Healing Build. That's 13k Heals Per Second only from Soothing Mist

    D/W fire tempest isnt BiS healing build. It's not even focused that much on healing, its main purpose is cleansing. The other reason of using powerful aura would be sharing shocking aura for strong melee CC, but that's even bigger meme of a build.

    In staff arcane builds you'll almost always want cleansing waters because a random cleanse will always be more useful than a stronger regen.

    If you want to talk about "Over-healing", you have to talk about any abilities that do "Over-damage" "Over-Buffing" or "Over-Cleansing" It's all about real estate. If you can cleanse 100 conditions, but there's only 30 conditions on your zerg? Than you are just cleansing 30 conditions and over cleansing 70 of them. Over cleansing also has a much bigger problem with Real estate because of competing cleansers. If everyone in a 30 man is cleansing 100 conditions, than your cleansing 1 condition and over cleansing 99 conditions.

    You dont use cleanses when there's no conditions. Overbuffing is barely a thing because buffs stack and even if you manage to overcap those 5 stacks, it's still insignificant number of wasted (aka overwritten) buffs. You cant overdamage, you can only miss your target. If you "overdamage" that means that your target is dead and your skills will target someone else.

    If you're build does 40,000 damage in a single burst skill, but the enemy player has only 10,000 health, than you are over-damaging by 30,000.

    You wont use your whole burst to kill that target then. You also wont have just one target so that damage will go on other targets.

    Why invest in more damage modifiers when you could go sustain? Or support?

    Celestial scourge is exactly this. Other classes have to rely on full synergy among stats, weapons and traits.

    Until that 40,000 damage drops to maybe 20,000 damage? If your zerg is hitting the enemy zerg for 10,000 damage per hit, then the players die so fast, that maybe only 3 people actually score the kill, while the rest of your zerg actually has no opportunity to do anything.

    Then you win the fight because you have better group composition and better builds.

    This is damage real estate, and it exists as a real thing. Watch this video for example. Risen Howl and a Weaver do so much damage in the second clip, so fast, that the majority of the rest of the zerg is doing only 2k dps. Tell me does it make sense for 1 person to do 50k dps and everyone else 2k, when you could get the same result with everyone doing 8k dps?

    If one skill hits you for 20k you're downed regardless of you not getting hit for the next 5 seconds, but getting hit for 4k during those 5 seconds will simply be ignored because you'll get healed over that duration. It doesnt matter if that damage comes from 1 or 20 players, as long as it's coordinated burst and not random sustained damage. High damage from 1 source will always have better synchronization over moderate damage from multiple sources because you're certain that your skills went off.

    Over buffing is when you apply buffs like Protection or Stability or Resistance, but there is nothing happening to which the buffs actually have an effect....So if you have Stability but you aren't CC'd, then the Stability was useless in that situation.

    That's why you dont use stability randomly, or protection, or literally anything that's not a rev facet.

    Likewise with Protection and resistance. Over-Buffing is rare because there is an extremely high turnover of buffs and corruptions, that it's almost always useful or never even used in less than a second intervals. Overbuffing is probably the best thing you can do for a zerg because it means you'll have more of said buff to protect you from being stripped.

    Already mentioned above.

    And over healing? Well if you aren't taking damage than you're just overhealing...but this is the same with any heal skill. Using Frost aura on a zerg that isn't taking any damage is an overheal. It's all about heal real estate and how much healing your zerg actually needs at the time. The real question is can you actually heal your zerg when they need it the most which is when they are taking massive damage in the kitten with no lube? Are you gonna be the healer that can barely pump out 3k heals per second, or are you gonna be the healer that can pump out 15k Heals per second when the zerg really needs it?

    Again, you're not using skills when you dont need to. Your passive procs happen when you get in combat (aka you're hit hence those 10% become useful as well as the aoe healing) and your aura skills dont get spammed randomly, they have their purposes (shocking aura for melee push = 5 CC sources instead of 1 source). Passive heals like regen and mist pulse constantly, whether you're in combat or not and difference between 300 heal per sec and 600 heal per sec means nothing when you can heal for 2k with aura or 10k with something bigger when necessary. Powerful is certainly not the reason of you having 3k heal per sec.

    When you're 90% and under almost no pressure you certainly wont use any of your important skills to heal up, you'll let your passive heals get that done within a couple of seconds. That's why healing over duration of whole fight doesnt mean that much. Just like a random 2k crit lavafont on a random location means nothing. Numbers on dps meter pile up eventually, but those have 0 impact on actual fight.

    The point is that talking about "Over-Healing" or "Over-anything" is kind of a moot, that has no significance because everything at some point in time deals with real estate issues.

    POST EDIT:
    Try this exercise the next time you use your cleansing build. Using ArcDPS, you can find out how much cleansing you did over an engagment right? So lets say a fight lasted for 3 minutes, and you cleansed about 280 conditions. Sounds great. Now go in and count the cleansing potential of each cleanse ability that you have on your build, and then divide it over the amount of times you could have used it on your build in those 3 minutes. So for example, if Overload Water can cleanse up to 100 conditions on your build, you take 3 minutes (180 seconds), and divide it by 17 seconds (The cooldown of Overload Water), and then multiply that number by 100. In this case it's Approximately 10 (The number of times you could have potentially used Overload Water in the engagment). So 10x100 is 1000 conditions you could have potentially cleansed in those 3 minutes, which means you probably OVER-CLEANSED by 720 conditions...

    That's not how it works. You dont cleanse of cooldown, you cleanse when needed. Same with heals and most buffs. The reason why you dont rely on numbers when it comes to constant passive heals is because having more controlled heals is a lot more effective than having a little big of them all the time. The more heals/cleanses you output during the biggest pressure will always be more impactful than having passive heals/cleanses that only have "value" as a number in long term fight. As explained on DPS example above - instant pressure creates downs, passive pressure over time doesnt do anything because it gets countered by healing. You may get higher numbers over longer period of time, but it's those 3 seconds of not paying attention/getting caught/missing cooldowns that get things done.

    Do this exercise with all of your condition cleanse abilities that you used in the engagement, and then see how much you are over-cleansing for. You then take the ratio of the amount of cleanses you did, versus how much cleanses you could have potentially done, and that will tell you how much value your cleanses/build actually give to your zerg. If your ratio is for example only 28% efficient like the example above, than you should be trying to reallocate traits and skills in your build to balance that ratio, until you are working at 100% efficiency (It's actually impossible to reach such a ratio, but ideally you want to aim for it.)

    Cleansing isnt about ratio, it's about speed and reliability. The sooner you cleanse immobilize, the sooner you can dodge the bomb. Getting healed for extra 300 health while that immob is up and not being able to dodge the bomb will get you killed. You dont die because you lacked those extra 1k health/s over 3 minutes, you died because you got locked down within seconds.

    edit: As you mentioned above: why invest fully into healing when you can slot in some utility? Evasive arcana is part of the BiS healing build, but elemental surge is one of the main reasons you run tempests to begin with. Tempest isnt that useful as a pure heal bot, it's a lot better when you slot in a lot of CC because the difference in healing is like 10%, but the utility you can bring is invaluable.

    You cant do the same with dps because damage output isnt always the same. A same skill can once hit for 15k but in another situation it can be 5k because it depends on many factors. Healing output on same skill is always +-10% because most of your modifiers are permanent and it doesnt rely on many factors. That's why you dont modify your dps builds around "good enough" damage, you always want the maximum potential. If you really needed to have a pure 100% heal focused builds, you'd simply run more healers or healing revs and that's not the case. The amount of non fb healers in squad is 10 at most, making it 20 supports per 50 people. So yes, overhealing is a thing.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @steki.1478 said:

    I'm glad you took the time to read through and respond to each point I've made.

    @steki.1478 said:
    You dont use cleanses when there's no conditions.

    This is a response to everything you said about Healing and condition cleansing throughout the post (not just the line i quoted):
    When you are in the thick of a big zerg fight, you can't know who does and doesn't need a cleanse. You use your skills in a rotation based manner in order to cleanse the most conditions as much as you can. Likewise, other cleansers in your group are doing the same thing, and thus at all times there will be conditions being applied and removed. I've never ever seen anyone play by "waiting" for conditions to be applied... to people for you to cleanse them, it just doesn't make sense. If you are about to push into a zerg your gonna be using skills off cooldown and cleansing whether people are getting hit with conditions or not...that's just how zerg is played dude.

    If your zerg isn't getting hit with conditions, is that an excuse for you not to use a single ability?

    Why even bother bringing you then? If you aren't cleansing as often as possible, whether there are conditions being applied during a push or not, then every moment you aren't using an ability during that push that you COULD be using, you are simply losing value to the squad regardless, because you COULD have been giving us a frost aura, or a healing ability or anything else other than a cleanse.

    You probably have your Squad UI set up so that you only see your subgroup...in that case you can see conditions...for up to 10 people. It's perfectly okay to play in a way that makes sense...use your biggest condition cleanse ability when you see a Kittenload of condi's in your party UI, and use your basic cleanse abilities when you don't see that many conditions...that's a fair way to play a cleanse build (It's called Priority Rotation btw). But if you aren't hit with conditions and you aren't using a single skill because you are "waiting" for the opportunity to cleanse is just not optimal.

    Anyway, with the exercise you can still calculate accurately how much over cleansing you are doing. ARCDPS has a skill usage list that shows you what skills you used and how many times you used it...it might even tell you the impact each skill had (how much damage, cleansing or healing it did) So if you don't want to use my "simplified" way to calculate over-cleanse, then use ARCDPS and it should tell you exactly what skills you used and how many conditions it cleansed. Once you do that you will have a truly accurate picture of how much over-cleansing you did.

    The ratio is still super relevant. The ratio not only tells you how much you over-cleansed, but it also shows you how much conditions you COULD have cleansed, which is the POTENTIAL of the build your using as a whole. If my entire build could cleanse 10k conditions per minute, but i'm only cleansing 300 conditions in a zerg fight...then why the kitten do i have all these extra cleansing traits and abilities when i could go into something else? Irregardless, it's over-cleansing because the potential of your build matters, which is why the method i mentioned in the previous post makes more sense to calculate than just using arcdps straight up.

    @steki.1478 said:
    ... If you "overdamage" that means that your target is dead and your skills will target someone else.
    ...You wont use your whole burst to kill that target then. You also wont have just one target so that damage will go on other targets.
    ...Then you win the fight because you have better group composition and better builds.

    Let me explain this more clearly. Over damage is when YOU do so much damage that it NULLIFIES the VALUE of other damage dealers in your squad. If you killed 20 of the 21 enemies in an opposing zerg, your squads damage dealers can ONLY damage the remaining 1 enemy because you killed everybody...why even bother bringing them along?

    You can have 20 Damage Dealers with the same exact overpowered 40k burst build. If it just takes two of them to kill an entire zerg, than the other 18 damage dealers will be licking up scraps and doing 1k DPS REGARDLESS.

    The only reason over-damage is not that big of an issue and why we spec our damage dealers for pure damage, is because it's a contingency for when we fight groups that have STRONG sustain. That's the only reason...a contingency.

    I've fought with my guild, running 12 people fighting a group of 40 people (Me on tempest healer) just last night. I can tell you why we won.
    a) We had godly sustain
    b) We had godly damage.

    How with only 12 people? Because our group is balanced in such a way where all our damage dealers do enough damage to capo everyone, and our healers do enough healing to keep everyone topped off. We don't need 20 more damage dealers...whether they do 100kdps or 1kdps because we have enough damage already, because OTHERWISE we would be OVER-DAMAGING, and they wouldn't have brought any additional VALUE anyway, because of enemy health real estate.

    Edit:
    So I just read your edit, and I’ll only talk about elemental surge. My friend suggested I run this over evasive arcana. But I’ve gone through every possible scenario of this healing build and the issue with surge is that it applies only 3 seconds of chill in water. Now...in order to use arcana you have to sacrifice a utility for an arcane skill. At most you would apply 36 seconds of chill with arcane power and an additional 30 seconds of chill with arcane wave with a single rotation if you want to sacrifice another utility slot That’s the same amount as just using Flash Freeze...plus the more shouts you lose the less effective aria is to your build...plus you lose out on 60k potential healing...that’s a huge sacrifice for just a few seconds of chill which will be cleansed and converted anyway.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    So i just took the liberty of doing the maths, and i calculated my own personal Over-Heal ratio.

    Just as a side note, over-healing is a bit harder to calculate because there's so many things that can heal, but for now what i did was took my BIS Heal build, and took the abilities that healed the most. Any other ability outside of the 6 i listed below are some-what negligible, and account for about 1 or 2% at most. The engagement i procured was a 3 minute engagement, each calculation shows the potential healing, and at the end it will show the maximum possible Healing per second, to which i then provide my healing per second as an average for comparison (15khps)

    -Overload Water = 190,000 Healing/ 17 second cooldown / 1.9 Million per 3min
    -Wash the Pain Away = 130,000 Healing/ 20 second cooldown / 1.2 Million per 3min
    -Flash Freeze = 60,000 Healing/ 25 second cooldown / 420,000 per 3min
    -Aftershock = 30,000 Healing/ 35 second cooldown / 150,000 per 3min
    -Rebound = 130,000 Healing/ 75 second cooldown / 240,000 per 3min
    -Soothing Mist = 130,000 Healing/ 10 second "cooldown" / 2.34 Million per 3min

    Total Maximum possible healing is 6.24 million Healing over the course of 3 minutes, which is 34k Healing per second, this is a 100% ratio.
    Half efficacy is 17k HPS. (50%) and my personal, on average HPS is 15k. Which means my ratio is roughly 46%.

    Sometimes you can get higher, sometimes you can get lower, depends on many factors, but you want to shoot for a 100% efficacy, which is 34kHPS (which is impossible unless you are the only healer in the group, and are never-ever over-healing.)

    Anyway, choose whatever build you want to run and then just DO THE MATH and you will figure out how effective you are as a healer, cleanser, damage dealer whatever to your squad, and how well you are utilizing whatever build you are running and then compare that with other builds. The math will speak for itself.

    Edit: Fixed some errors in my math.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 you don't waste cleanse skills when the main group is doing nothing aka watching the enemy aka pitateshipping.

    For me, if I see myself or my party chilled/burned, I will use SDaR. When we go for a pull and bomb, I will use my water skills and maybe the heal--no water overloading. You save that and all the other shouts/auras for the big pushes. Trust me, I know what I'm saying here.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    Edit:
    So I just read your edit, and I’ll only talk about elemental surge. My friend suggested I run this over evasive arcana. But I’ve gone through every possible scenario of this healing build and the issue with surge is that it applies only 3 seconds of chill in water. Now...in order to use arcana you have to sacrifice a utility for an arcane skill. At most you would apply 36 seconds of chill with arcane power and an additional 30 seconds of chill with arcane wave with a single rotation if you want to sacrifice another utility slot That’s the same amount as just using Flash Freeze...plus the more shouts you lose the less effective aria is to your build...plus you lose out on 60k potential healing...that’s a huge sacrifice for just a few seconds of chill which will be cleansed and converted anyway.

    You dont use arcane for chills, you use it for immobs. I cant really take your posts serious if you dont know the basic zerg builds and their usage.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @steki.1478 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    Edit:
    So I just read your edit, and I’ll only talk about elemental surge. My friend suggested I run this over evasive arcana. But I’ve gone through every possible scenario of this healing build and the issue with surge is that it applies only 3 seconds of chill in water. Now...in order to use arcana you have to sacrifice a utility for an arcane skill. At most you would apply 36 seconds of chill with arcane power and an additional 30 seconds of chill with arcane wave with a single rotation if you want to sacrifice another utility slot That’s the same amount as just using Flash Freeze...plus the more shouts you lose the less effective aria is to your build...plus you lose out on 60k potential healing...that’s a huge sacrifice for just a few seconds of chill which will be cleansed and converted anyway.

    You dont use arcane for chills, you use it for immobs. I cant really take your posts serious if you don't know the basic zerg builds and their usage.

    and you get immobs when you are in Earth which means you aren't healing... i mean i get why you want to go arcane, but are you a healer? or are you a DPS? if you want to immobilize people go CONDI WEAVER or something...why bother slotting arcane skills and elemental surge just to immobilize for 2 seconds that will get cleansed and converted IMMEDIATELY? If you wanted immobilize go venom thief share thief then? They have the same exact thing except it's one skill don't they?

    You don't want to take me seriously, or math seriously, fine...

    Me? i'm perfectly okay. Literately farming 40 man zergs with a 12 man for a whole night bringing our KDR to a 3.0 and embarrassing top guilds is what I'm doing.
    Meanwhile you can enjoy your 80 man que zerg steamrolling other 20 man pugs and think your build is actually doing something useful.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    Edit:
    So I just read your edit, and I’ll only talk about elemental surge. My friend suggested I run this over evasive arcana. But I’ve gone through every possible scenario of this healing build and the issue with surge is that it applies only 3 seconds of chill in water. Now...in order to use arcana you have to sacrifice a utility for an arcane skill. At most you would apply 36 seconds of chill with arcane power and an additional 30 seconds of chill with arcane wave with a single rotation if you want to sacrifice another utility slot That’s the same amount as just using Flash Freeze...plus the more shouts you lose the less effective aria is to your build...plus you lose out on 60k potential healing...that’s a huge sacrifice for just a few seconds of chill which will be cleansed and converted anyway.

    You dont use arcane for chills, you use it for immobs. I cant really take your posts serious if you don't know the basic zerg builds and their usage.

    and you get immobs when you are in Earth which means you aren't healing... i mean i get why you want to go arcane, but are you a healer? or are you a DPS? if you want to immobilize people go CONDI WEAVER or something...why bother slotting arcane skills and elemental surge just to immobilize for 2 seconds that will get cleansed and converted IMMEDIATELY? If you wanted immobilize go venom thief share thief then? They have the same exact thing except it's one skill don't they?

    You don't want to take me seriously, or math seriously, fine...

    Me? i'm perfectly okay. Literately farming 40 man zergs with a 12 man for a whole night bringing our KDR to a 3.0 and embarrassing top guilds is what I'm doing.
    Meanwhile you can enjoy your 80 man que zerg steamrolling other 20 man pugs and think your build is actually doing something useful.

    Your water skills have cooldowns and your mist heals for 10 seconds after you leave water. So yes, 4 sec immob is a lot better than 2k heals over 5 seconds. Thief venom isnt even that good and neither is thief itself. How does immob get cleansed immediately when your builds are focused on good enough amount and not overcleansing, hybrid builds that do a bit of everything and your main focus is getting high numbers on dps meter instead of having an actual impact on the fight?

    I'm farming 30 man zergs with 1 meteor shower and fgs firestorm so idk how your argument is relevant in this discussion.

    Leave math for pve where actions are predictable and you can optimize for every single situation with one build. Just because your skill is "overdamaging" for 10k one time, doesnt mean that it will down an enemy every single time since things like might, crit chance, weakness, protection, frost aura, dwarf elite et etc exist and they arent present permanently, unlike in pve.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @steki.1478 said:
    Your water skills have cooldowns and your mist heals for 10 seconds after you leave water. So yes, 4 sec immob is a lot better than 2k heals over 5 seconds.

    2k heals over 5 seconds? dude you clearly don't understand and haven't done the math....I've done the math already for you. in 5 seconds, soothing mist heals for 65,000 Health (If you were talking about Evasive arcana, that heals for 30,000, and has a 10 second cooldown...not to mention it cleanses conditions, and can be a blast finisher if used in earth). You can only maintain max heals with soothing mist by camping water. Sure you can switch attunements every once and while to use CC's, or fire evade or blast finishers, but it will ALWAYS come at the cost of healing.

    @steki.1478 said:
    Thief venom isn't even that good and neither is thief itself. How does immob get cleansed immediately when your builds are focused on good enough amount and not >overcleansing, hybrid builds that do a bit of everything and your main focus is getting high numbers on dps meter instead of having an actual impact on the fight?

    You know thief is also meta right? For GvG? The Immob Venom is actually an option people use in high level tournament. It's literally the same thing as ele's Elemental Surge+Arcane. Personally, I don't really care about the meta, but because of what you said now, you clearly don't "get" why people spec for the builds they do on meta-battle (Which are mostly gvg builds btw...not WVW builds.)

    Anyway, My argument about Elemental Surge and Arcane was literately just me outweighing the cost to benefit ratio between that and just using shouts. If you are Over-cleansing, then GO AHEAD and put some arcane skills on your bar and CC away and do other things...that's PERFECTLY okay and optimal thinking if you are over-cleansing.

    Like i said in the very beginning of this post, Ele is the best PURE HEALER in the game...so going CC manager in zerg means your just, gimping yourself...it's an option you can go into... SURE. But you are still gimping yourself.
    You can go cleanse bot manager in zerg...but you are gimping yourself.
    You can go hybrid whatever boon duration extender but you are gimping yourself.
    All those things other classes can do, and they are the best at it. You are the best at pure healing and you decide not to go pure healing? just doesn't make sense...

    WHY use minstrel gear? We didn't even talk about this but...why? 50% of the stats are just wasted. What boons do ele's even provide that are useful that are worth extending in duration by 25%? Why do you need TOUGHNESS in a zerg setting? Is having 19k health not good enough for you?

    Minstrel's gear was MADE for Firebrands...It is their BIS gear. Magi's is Ele's BIS gear and it was made for Elementalists...hence the name. It's super obvious looking at the build set ups and the stats why that is....but ohh i know why you are running minstrel it's because it's the meta...ohhhhh now it makes sense.

    If you took the time to do the math and analyze the builds you are playing you'd realize how much your actually gimping yourself by choosing the gear you choose, choosing the traits and utilities you choose, which ultimately define how you play.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Your water skills have cooldowns and your mist heals for 10 seconds after you leave water. So yes, 4 sec immob is a lot better than 2k heals over 5 seconds.

    2k heals over 5 seconds? dude you clearly don't understand and haven't done the math....I've done the math already for you. in 5 seconds, soothing mist heals for 65,000 Health (If you were talking about Evasive arcana, that heals for 30,000, and has a 10 second cooldown...not to mention it cleanses conditions, and can be a blast finisher if used in earth). You can only maintain max heals with soothing mist by camping water. Sure you can switch attunements every once and while to use CC's, or fire evade or blast finishers, but it will ALWAYS come at the cost of healing.

    Healing what? Full HP allies? I was talking about heal on one target, it's insignificant.

    @steki.1478 said:
    Thief venom isn't even that good and neither is thief itself. How does immob get cleansed immediately when your builds are focused on good enough amount and not >overcleansing, hybrid builds that do a bit of everything and your main focus is getting high numbers on dps meter instead of having an actual impact on the fight?

    You know thief is also meta right? For GvG? The Immob Venom is actually an option people use in high level tournament. It's literally the same thing as ele's Elemental Surge+Arcane. Personally, I don't really care about the meta, but because of what you said now, you clearly don't "get" why people spec for the builds they do on meta-battle (Which are mostly gvg builds btw...not WVW builds.)

    GvG has nothing to do with 50 man blobs though.

    Anyway, My argument about Elemental Surge and Arcane was literately just me outweighing the cost to benefit ratio between that and just using shouts. If you are Over-cleansing, then GO AHEAD and put some arcane skills on your bar and CC away and do other things...that's PERFECTLY okay and optimal thinking if you are over-cleansing.

    Like i said in the very beginning of this post, Ele is the best PURE HEALER in the game...so going CC manager in zerg means your just, gimping yourself...it's an option you can go into... SURE. But you are still gimping yourself.

    No it's not. Herald is. And I dont know how you're gimping yourself by doubling your utility and losing 20% of the healing output that you dont even need.

    You can go cleanse bot manager in zerg...but you are gimping yourself.

    That's a very situational build as mentioned.

    You can go hybrid whatever boon duration extender but you are gimping yourself.

    Hybrid builds always are.

    All those things other classes can do, and they are the best at it. You are the best at pure healing and you decide not to go pure healing? just doesn't make sense...

    It does because tempest currently has the biggest CC output in large scale fights. Chronos arent even played anymore and every other class has 2 cc skills at most. Arcane tempest has 4 sources of CC that stops movement. The only thing you're gimping yourself for is camping water 24/7 because you're not utilizing your class and you're not even utilizing your water traits.

    WHY use minstrel gear? We didn't even talk about this but...why? 50% of the stats are just wasted. What boons do ele's even provide that are useful that are worth extending in duration by 25%? Why do you need TOUGHNESS in a zerg setting? Is having 19k health not good enough for you?

    Because you cant support if you're dead. Magi will obviously be more suitable for staff backline, but as tempest you dont really want to be in your backline because most of your support is shared with 10 people and backline doesnt need that much of your heals. So you stand in front to soak up some damage, heal as many allies as possible, share auras to those that get hit and CC enemy when necessary.

    If you stay behind you're gimping yourself by providing defensive support to those who dont need it. Aka you're being a heal bot when you dont even need that much heals and other utility that your class has can be used in other parts of the squad.

    Minstrel's gear was MADE for Firebrands...It is their BIS gear. Magi's is Ele's BIS gear and it was made for Elementalists...hence the name.

    So with that logic scholar runes are not BiS for any non-light class dps build?

    It's super obvious looking at the build set ups and the stats why that is....but ohh i know why you are running minstrel it's because it's the meta...ohhhhh now it makes sense.

    Nice logic.

    If you took the time to do the math and analyze the builds you are playing you'd realize how much your actually gimping yourself by choosing the gear you choose, choosing the traits and utilities you choose, which ultimately define how you play.

    You're gimping yourself by taking this class since you obviously have no idea how it works. Math has nothing to do with it.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Once anti toxin is nerfed you’ll be playing BIS heal tempest anyway... so I’m done here there’s no getting through to you. Do the math that’s it, the end, numbers don’t lie.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The BiS heal tempest is as useless as heal rev. CC on top of auras and large radius of support are the biggest reason you take tempest.

    Nothing beats magi herald in raw healing output, but healing isn't the main thing that's keeping you alive. That's why the build is worthless.

    The end of the blob fight doesn't lie either. I can run any of these builds, but they won't stop enemies from oneshotting half of the group.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    Numbers don't lie @steki.1478

    This fight was very long, Taking over Bay against a pretty sizable 50+ blob. Top Cleansing...no anti-toxin, no cleansing water. Just BIS Healing. I didn't get to see the Total healing, but the fight was like a good 10 minutes or more, lots of waiting around and auto attacking Lord. We also have lots of Sustain in our zerg so the HPS will be low like that.
    https://i.imgur.com/3GjLRVc.png <---During the final push, running back to the commander.
    https://i.imgur.com/lKbdK3g.png <---End of the fight.

    This is a different fight that happened at Bay a few moments later, much much shorter, about a minutes worth. 2nd in Cleansing, 8k HPS.
    https://i.imgur.com/cFIAP0v.png
    https://i.imgur.com/gUrO6qg.png <---With Combat Timer.

    A short fight from earlier in the evening. a 45 second fight. 2nd in cleansing, 7khps. Only 12 people in my group soloing some zerg i don't even remember who.
    https://i.imgur.com/6zw0dgp.png <---With Combat Timer.

    This is just some of the fights from just tonight., and this is nothing. I out cleanse scrappers all the time, by literally keeping OW on cooldown, with no antitoxin, no cleansing water or cleansing at all. During actual decent fights (unlike the fights in the picture which were pretty bad fights imo) i top out at 16k SUSTAINED HPS, and at least 3rd on the cleanse meter.

    I've seen some "Ventari Healer" video's, and i'm not impressed. I've yet to see it go above 10k healing that isn't a single burst of heal the first second of the fight lmao. Show me 10k+ sustained heal coming out of a ventari rev and then we can talk about ventari rev being the best raw healer.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Numbers don't lie @steki.1478

    This fight was very long, Taking over Bay against a pretty sizable 50+ blob. Top Cleansing...no anti-toxin, no cleansing water. Just BIS Healing. I didn't get to see the Total healing, but the fight was like a good 10 minutes or more, lots of waiting around and auto attacking Lord. We also have lots of Sustain in our zerg so the HPS will be low like that.
    https://i.imgur.com/3GjLRVc.png

    https://i.imgur.com/lKbdK3g.png

    This is a different fight that happened at Bay a few moments later, much much shorter, about a minutes worth. 2nd in Cleansing, 8k HPS.
    https://i.imgur.com/cFIAP0v.png
    https://i.imgur.com/gUrO6qg.png

    A short fight from earlier in the evening. a 45 second fight. 2nd in cleansing, 7khps. Only 12 people in my group soloing some zerg i don't even remember who.
    https://i.imgur.com/6zw0dgp.png

    This is just some of the fights from just tonight., and this is nothing. I out cleanse scrappers all the time, by literally keeping OW on cooldown, with no antitoxin, no cleansing water or cleansing at all. During actual decent fights (unlike the fights in the picture which were pretty bad fights imo) i top out at 16k SUSTAINED HPS, and at least 3rd on the cleanse meter.

    I've seen some "Ventari Healer" video's, and i'm not impressed. I've yet to see it go above 10k healing that isn't a single burst of heal the first second of the fight lmao. Show me 10k+ sustained heal coming out of a ventari rev and then we can talk about ventari rev being the best raw healer.

    Can you play with combat timers, please?

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Dahir.4158 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Numbers don't lie @steki.1478

    This fight was very long, Taking over Bay against a pretty sizable 50+ blob. Top Cleansing...no anti-toxin, no cleansing water. Just BIS Healing. I didn't get to see the Total healing, but the fight was like a good 10 minutes or more, lots of waiting around and auto attacking Lord. We also have lots of Sustain in our zerg so the HPS will be low like that.
    https://i.imgur.com/3GjLRVc.png

    https://i.imgur.com/lKbdK3g.png

    This is a different fight that happened at Bay a few moments later, much much shorter, about a minutes worth. 2nd in Cleansing, 8k HPS.
    https://i.imgur.com/cFIAP0v.png
    https://i.imgur.com/gUrO6qg.png

    A short fight from earlier in the evening. a 45 second fight. 2nd in cleansing, 7khps. Only 12 people in my group soloing some zerg i don't even remember who.
    https://i.imgur.com/6zw0dgp.png

    This is just some of the fights from just tonight., and this is nothing. I out cleanse scrappers all the time, by literally keeping OW on cooldown, with no antitoxin, no cleansing water or cleansing at all. During actual decent fights (unlike the fights in the picture which were pretty bad fights imo) i top out at 16k SUSTAINED HPS, and at least 3rd on the cleanse meter.

    I've seen some "Ventari Healer" video's, and i'm not impressed. I've yet to see it go above 10k healing that isn't a single burst of heal the first second of the fight lmao. Show me 10k+ sustained heal coming out of a ventari rev and then we can talk about ventari rev being the best raw healer.

    Can you play with combat timers, please?

    The first fight i didn’t get a chance to see the combat timer...but the fight was mostly the enemy Zergs waiting While we were attacking the lord and then they finally pushed us, they died and another Zerg followed in and we had to kinda go back and forth till they were all dead. So actual fight time was probably 3 minutes but I was stuck healing through pressure and auto attacking on lord for 7 minutes prior.

    but the ladder two fights have timers and I made sure u can see them in the pictures the first one was 57 seconds, the other was 47 seconds. They also have total heal number there so you can see that in the 57 second fight I healed for 460k healing. In the 47 second fight I healed for 350k healing. (edit: i marked the images with a subtext so you can see which images have combat timers)

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    Another fight from tonight. @Dahir.4158 @steki.1478

    16-19 man squad. about 50 seconds long. 430,000 healed. 9k Sustained HPS. Tied for first place in cleansing with another scrapper. I even included the combat timers just for you. I didn't even have my healing food/wrench equipped, so ya could have been healing for even more, Shame.

    https://i.imgur.com/Xesj9XE.png <---Start of the Fight. Began with Overload Water in the first few seconds, already have 30 cleanses on my belt.

    https://i.imgur.com/RLRzWJB.png <--- End of the fight.

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