Scourges Sand Savant needs to be reworked. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Scourges Sand Savant needs to be reworked.

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  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Tom Hsiao.9705 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I want to throw in my 2c The reason is because every class has every type of role (DPS/support/healer/Tank/offensive support) These are the main holy trinity of roles in the usual but balancing it is hell because some classes combine 2 or more elements of those roles.

    You cant have a class that is master dps and master offensive/defensive supports ala mesmers with chronomancers in the past with enough offensive and defensive supports combined with huge dps, its just unbalanced. I personally think they should make elite specs into the holy trinity and nerf them to make them fit that role in some way or another, while keeping them unique, and why not? we got a tree of skills and wow has a skill tree to make classes into dps or into tanks why not GW2? the reason i quit GW2 is because i hate being pigeon holed into a kitten job i don't want and being mediocre. Oh you want to play scourge? sorry you have to be support or nothing well gee wonder why people are quitting.

    Also i am waiting for a 3rd kitten separation of modes for WVW. There needs to be a total of 3 different modes separated its a lot of work for them but it will help in my opinion with the problems since people complain about scourges stacking and boon corrupting, well it isn't a problem in pve and i don't like pve getting nerfed because of pvp, and shouldn't.

    I think if we saw a third split maybe scourge could get some dps buffs for pve and not be forced into support or power. I'd love for scourge to go back into being condi bomber but the WVW mod will see huge complaints about it.

    I also think its understandable for people to want dps specs to be competitive. I do think that having the exact same dps doesn't have to be a thing. I will be ok as long as we get some other improvements in traits to survive in pve and maybe be a little more useful to the group with reaper, or if it stays selfish, then to fix the broken traits in death magic and others so necro has some sustain it can get from them and maybe offer something else to the group to be not entirely selfish.

    I keep wondering about the thing someone said which was something regarding the sustain abilities for necro being on weapons, because ele has sustain abilities on their weapon in water and earth element and it has no problem, so why can't necro have some too? why cant we have decent amount of sustain while sacrificing little dps? i mean its not fair eles in water trait get dps trait that helps them sustain and do dmg and necro is expected to go full glass with reaper.

    The beauty of gw2 is there is no trinity thing. You can be whatever you want and don’t need to rely on tank or healer...so why on earth they’d ruin it lol. If you want trinity you need to play something else like WOW Ff14 or whatever that’s out there

    GW2 is a mess and I rarely stick around sometimes coming back mainly because I enjoy ele and necro gameplay. The problem is that classes are seriously imbalanced.

    nerfs to classes in pve because of WVW anybody? scourge nerfs? chronomancer nerfs and core Mesmer nerfs?

    You don-t have to have 100% one class be of the holy trinity rather I think building to that role or a hybrid which GW2 does. The problem is that scourge im not sure if it fits the role yet as a viable support or no and its def shoehorned which is why I can-t stand ANET I can-t stand being shoehorned into a role I might not want. lets say I want condi scourge to be a thing, then why cant I build towards it for endgame? ANET keeps nerfing scourge and people are still crying for more nerfs. When will it be ok? when scourge no longer has any damage anymore and is useless in WVW and pve? When will we stop complaining about mesmers? when they can no longer do dmg and buff?

    They'll probably not be complained about when they stop being totally busted OP in the respective formats generating complaints.

    For scourge specifically, at no other point in history was a class universally limited/banned in GvG for being too overpowered. Scourge still is. And that's in pretty small 15v15 where the spec gets even stronger in larger encounters...

    ANet set out to make a support spec and ended up making the best AoE frontline burner ever, which indefinitely counters all large-scale metas and would have countered every large-scale meta ever in existence.

    Either they gut the AoE, gut the support, or gut the control/corruption. It can't be all three.

    Mirage literally defies one of the primary pillars of gameplay the game was built on which is visual clarity. It will always either be busted or useless with nothing in between.

    See that problem is only in WVW as you have a lot of people playing scourge and dropping bomb after bomb, and that would kill scourge further in pve, which is why we need another split.

    scourge is already behind in dps and while ok support, if you gut it , then it will become trivial in pve completely, and that isn't good for the game.

    Chronomancer i hear is already not doing great now in pve after being massacred with nerf after nerf, so yeah my point still stands we need a third split. Pve builds shouldn't be massacred because of pvp and WVW.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • @Axl.8924 said:
    See that problem is only in WVW as you have a lot of people playing scourge and dropping bomb after bomb, and that would kill scourge further in pve, which is why we need another split.

    scourge is already behind in dps and while ok support, if you gut it , then it will become trivial in pve completely, and that isn't good for the game.

    Chronomancer i hear is already not doing great now in pve after being massacred with nerf after nerf, so yeah my point still stands we need a third split. Pve builds shouldn't be massacred because of pvp and WVW.

    The problem is : no one complains that a profession is too strong in PvE. Only in those secondary game modes where you can get killed by one.
    So yeah, a complete split is badly needed.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kaladel.1670 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    See that problem is only in WVW as you have a lot of people playing scourge and dropping bomb after bomb, and that would kill scourge further in pve, which is why we need another split.

    scourge is already behind in dps and while ok support, if you gut it , then it will become trivial in pve completely, and that isn't good for the game.

    Chronomancer i hear is already not doing great now in pve after being massacred with nerf after nerf, so yeah my point still stands we need a third split. Pve builds shouldn't be massacred because of pvp and WVW.

    The problem is : no one complains that a profession is too strong in PvE. Only in those secondary game modes where you can get killed by one.
    So yeah, a complete split is badly needed.

    From what i hear its usually a bunch of scourges spamming bombs.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Kaladel.1670Kaladel.1670 Member ✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    Coming soon : a nerf of the condi dmg of the scourge because our power build is too strong in WvW :/

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is so much boon availability Arenanet decided to give Scourge a pile of boon-hate to control it but then it looks as if Scourge is OP because it is the only serious boon-hate profession and other professions cannot simply turn off their boon generation.

    Arenanet really, really, needs to reset boons, conditions, and their management. It is fine having some professions and specializations being particularly good or bad at certain things but the current state of the elite's are why core professions are often so bad in comparison and why core weapons and other skills need buffing.

    Without pointing fingers at other professions, take Necromancer for example; Reaper is a power-cleave profession so why is its single-target dps higher than core Necro's dagger and, for Scourge, why is a group-support spec so absolutely critical for boon hate in WvW? Specializations should never generally outperform core specializations because that renders core obsolete.

  • why is a group-support spec

    Is it ? What does it provide as a support ? A bit of sustain, a bit of might and barriers ? This is pretty lame next to any real support. Maybe that explains why it has fire, torment and boon hate ?

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @Kaladel.1670 said:

    why is a group-support spec

    Is it ? What does it provide as a support ? A bit of sustain, a bit of might and barriers ? This is pretty lame next to any real support. Maybe that explains why it has fire, torment and boon hate ?

    I mean it's going to suffer in the heal/barrier department behind druid and whatnot considering it's also got heavy AoE presence and its core class is designed around controlling the battlefield, and has done it best-in-game by a solid margin since launch.

    No class can or should have it all. Scourge would have to be totally detached from core necro to be a viable support, and to be an AoE condi/control spec, needs its support options removed. Otherwise it just can't be balanced.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Kaladel.1670 said:

    why is a group-support spec

    Is it ? What does it provide as a support ? A bit of sustain, a bit of might and barriers ? This is pretty lame next to any real support. Maybe that explains why it has fire, torment and boon hate ?

    I mean it's going to suffer in the heal/barrier department behind druid and whatnot considering it's also got heavy AoE presence and its core class is designed around controlling the battlefield, and has done it best-in-game by a solid margin since launch.

    No class can or should have it all. Scourge would have to be totally detached from core necro to be a viable support, and to be an AoE condi/control spec, needs its support options removed. Otherwise it just can't be balanced.

    I'm not sure I follow you there. But, to be clear : I don't want Scourge to be "Druid 2 : same support, more DPS". I just don't consider it to be as viable a support in PvE endgame as most of the support builds from other professions. That's all.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kaladel.1670 said:

    why is a group-support spec

    Is it ? What does it provide as a support ? A bit of sustain, a bit of might and barriers ? This is pretty lame next to any real support. Maybe that explains why it has fire, torment and boon hate ?

    It is. ANet's original support design for gw2's necromancer is support through debuff, condi cleanse and boon hate. Scourge extend this support with barrier. And technically, soft and hard CC are also a form of support.

    Scourge is overflowing with cripple, boon corruption and barrier. It's litterally the peak of defensive support that ANet could fit with it's necromancer's design.

    The only real arguable points is the fact that the scourge's shade skills proc F1 and F5 is totally a damage skill. ANet just can't resolve itself to specialize the "shroud" into support and it naturally create a mess.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kaladel.1670 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Kaladel.1670 said:

    why is a group-support spec

    Is it ? What does it provide as a support ? A bit of sustain, a bit of might and barriers ? This is pretty lame next to any real support. Maybe that explains why it has fire, torment and boon hate ?

    I mean it's going to suffer in the heal/barrier department behind druid and whatnot considering it's also got heavy AoE presence and its core class is designed around controlling the battlefield, and has done it best-in-game by a solid margin since launch.

    No class can or should have it all. Scourge would have to be totally detached from core necro to be a viable support, and to be an AoE condi/control spec, needs its support options removed. Otherwise it just can't be balanced.

    I'm not sure I follow you there. But, to be clear : I don't want Scourge to be "Druid 2 : same support, more DPS". I just don't consider it to be as viable a support in PvE endgame as most of the support builds from other professions. That's all.

    Problem is, if it's not as good as druid, it won't be taken in PvE. And if it's better or matches Druid, then the Druid is not ever taken. It's that simple. The offenses and disables it provides are meaningless because those mechanics don't matter in PvE, yet the complaints about the spec being busted overpowered from the WvW/PvP side of things are valid because those elements are really all that matter. It's why necro has been a huge equalizer in the PvP modes forever, and why "focus the necro" is absolutely valid and has been a common complaint by necromancers for years - the class aggressively counters what's historically been dominant thanks to boons and sustain.

    Scourge is still plenty viable for raids and the likes in order to complete the content. Hell, groups have done raids playing things like support thief. Fact is, the PvE "meta" is just an optimization set by top-end players. It will always be this way. Elitists will demand a certain comp, and people will copy them, thinking it's the only way to play, because it similarly becomes obvious that "X is best at y role."

    This is why there's really no such thing as a PvE metagame. It's a big math problem and the toxicity associated with it is in the hands and perpetuated by the community. It's why games with a big emphasis on/support for PvP tend to have substantially more longevity and larger audiences.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @Kaladel.1670 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Kaladel.1670 said:

    why is a group-support spec

    Is it ? What does it provide as a support ? A bit of sustain, a bit of might and barriers ? This is pretty lame next to any real support. Maybe that explains why it has fire, torment and boon hate ?

    I mean it's going to suffer in the heal/barrier department behind druid and whatnot considering it's also got heavy AoE presence and its core class is designed around controlling the battlefield, and has done it best-in-game by a solid margin since launch.

    No class can or should have it all. Scourge would have to be totally detached from core necro to be a viable support, and to be an AoE condi/control spec, needs its support options removed. Otherwise it just can't be balanced.

    I'm not sure I follow you there. But, to be clear : I don't want Scourge to be "Druid 2 : same support, more DPS". I just don't consider it to be as viable a support in PvE endgame as most of the support builds from other professions. That's all.

    The best support classes offer alacricity and other stuff in lots of quantity, something of which scourge is lacking of. Instead I think necros ability to be offensive support should be what it continues to be, to compete with even Mesmer. I haven't seen necros as defensive support and its thoroughly lacking, but offensive its got bundles of it with cripple blind etc.

    Any buffs should make necros with scourge more condi and more focused on ofensive support in pve making it more effective and making them more desireable for raids.

    Also if boon corrupt is such a issue in WVW then maybe boons themselves should be nerfed the quantity given instead of nerfing boon corrupt? because if you nerf boon corrupt then boons will still be spammed like candy

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Kaladel.1670Kaladel.1670 Member ✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    You all post way to fast for the slow writer that I am. Anyway. I'll resume my point (disclaimer : this is PvE oriented, I agree that Scourge is in a great place in WvW, and probably in PvP too)
    I don't think Scourge isn't valuable. Let's be clear on that. But almost every profession bring something unique and useful to the table in group setting. Be it a rare boon (alacrity), an easy way to sustain some boons on the party, a unique buff that boosts damages/stats even when boons are at max stacks (empower allies, spotter, ashes, banners, spirits, ...).
    Necro brings Vampiric Presence. Which isn't that good compared to those things. And things to save people in case of death (which are thematic, but often not needed) Scourge brings barriers. Some Might generation, but everyone and their pet cat generates Might. And a bit of condi cleanse.
    This isn't really enough to distinguish Scourge as a support (or even as a profession you want to have in your party). And I believe it's a bad thing that comes from its roots. The core necro is too selfish. This is an old problem that should have been fixed long ago. Because GW2 is an MMORPG. Being selfish in this sort of game makes no sense unless you bring a truly enormous dps to still make you valuable (like thief in some other games) in another way. And I will not advocate for this, 'cause I find it boring and it could create more problems than what it solves.
    I still love the spec and find it fun and will play a support Scourge any day. But I consider that it lacks something to be really in a good place.