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Latency (definitely) and (apparent) Packet Loss at GW2 servers.

jniel.3581

By jniel.3581
in Account & Technical Support

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RedCobra.7693

RedCobra.7693

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I still find it mindblowing that players are defending this issue as if its some ISP problem, it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out and have confirmed that they are investigating. Issue has of course become worse since lockdown however this issue was present before lockdown

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RedCobra.7693

RedCobra.7693

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"RedCobra.7693" said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/111982/an-update-on-game-performance-issues#latest

heres some outcry from other players with multiple comments on people sharing their experience.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/93527/lagshttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/105725/lag-since-the-rollbackhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/107576/lag-spikes-and-disconnectshttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/108621/lag-lag-lag-anet-please-stop-ignoring-the-community-on-this-mergedhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/111322/lag-spike-and-skill-lags-during-meta-eventshttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1325574#Comment_1325574https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/106317/lag-spike-desert-highlands

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@RedCobra.7693 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

Since that post, we’ve had a few players post that when they had reached out to Anet, their particular issue was determined to be due to their ISP. I think one may have been because of something on their end with their PC. I can’t remember.

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

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RedCobra.7693

RedCobra.7693

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

Youre absolutely right, a large majority of players experiencing the same issues in the same location is purely chance, theyre all having issues with their IP at the same time yet not having any other issues with any other product/game.

and youre right again anet are well known for looking into issues and using "members of our Engineering, Infrastructure, Design, QA, and Production teams" for issues that they arent certain that they are responsible for.

I'm sorry but if a large majority of the customer base is experiencing an issue it is their responsibility to do what they can to resolve it as the provider. not mine, not any other players, ANETs. game providers get away with all sorts because their customers are people who play games and just that. if this was any other company like talk talk or virgin media there would be an outrage.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@RedCobra.7693 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

Youre absolutely right, a large majority of players experiencing the same issues in the same location is purely chance, theyre all having issues with their IP at the same time yet not having any other issues with any other product/game.

Unless those other games are using the same servers, you can’t really compare the latency of one game to another. For example, if you look at forums for other games, you’ll find players complaining about having lag only for that game and not others as well.

and youre right again anet are well known for looking into issues and using "members of our Engineering, Infrastructure, Design, QA, and Production teams" for issues that they arent certain that they are responsible for.

If players are claiming that they’re having issues, it’d be best to have the teams with knowledge of the systems on the company’s end to be involved, no? This doesn’t mean that the issue if on the company’s end.

I'm sorry but if a large majority of the customer base is experiencing an issue it is their responsibility to do what they can to resolve it as the provider. not mine, not any other players, ANETs. game providers get away with all sorts because their customers are people who play games and just that. if this was any other company like talk talk or virgin media there would be an outrage.

Large majority? Based on what? If the issue is with the ISP networks, it’s out of their hands pretty much. If the issue is due to something on the players’ end, WiFi interference for example, then there’s not much that Anet can do either.

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RedCobra.7693

RedCobra.7693

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been playing this game all week, no lag, decided to just try out thunderhead peaks, immediatly 200ms ping and huge lag spikes.

I've added you ingame join my party come to thunderhead peaks and see for yourself. youre in complete denial for some reason, lag isnt just lag theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it.

for the record i'm ONLY getting this in season 4 maps and occasionally in PoF

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@RedCobra.7693 said:been playing this game all week, no lag, decided to just try out thunderhead peaks, immediatly 200ms ping and huge lag spikes.

I've added you ingame join my party come to thunderhead peaks and see for yourself. youre in complete denial for some reason, lag isnt just lag theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it.

for the record i'm ONLY getting this in season 4 maps and occasionally in PoF

I average 120ish ping. I have gone onto the maps numerous times to see if I would be having the same issues which I have not. I’ve tested that map at least a dozen times over the past month or so. I’ve seen people complaining about lag when I’m standing right next to them and not having any issues.

Lag is just lag. Just because there are various sources doesn’t change that. Also, since you specifically said “ theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it” then I guess that means that you also understand that it can also not be due to the servers.

As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale. It’s a theory that will likely never be “proved”. Despite all that, there are still players that do not experience any issues on those maps as well.

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RedCobra.7693

RedCobra.7693

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"RedCobra.7693" said:been playing this game all week, no lag, decided to just try out thunderhead peaks, immediatly 200ms ping and huge lag spikes.

I've added you ingame join my party come to thunderhead peaks and see for yourself. youre in complete denial for some reason, lag isnt just lag theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it.

for the record i'm ONLY getting this in season 4 maps and occasionally in PoF

I average 120ish ping. I have gone onto the maps numerous times to see if I would be having the same issues which I have not. I’ve tested that map at least a dozen times over the past month or so. I’ve seen people complaining about lag when I’m standing right next to them and not having any issues.

Lag is just lag. Just because there are various sources doesn’t change that. Also, since you specifically said “ theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it” then I guess that means that you also understand that it can also not be due to the servers.

As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale. It’s a theory that will likely never be “proved”. Despite all that, there are still players that do not experience any issues on those maps as well.

I work for an ISP, I wish we had customers like you that shoot down other customers when they raise a complaint. Instead there is a large influx of people complaining about Map specific lag, not servers not isps not region. both coming from NA and EU about LS4 maps in particular. this means it is anets responsibility.

"As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale."youre finally getting it, it is suspected (since we dont work for anet) that there is something crucially different about these maps causing issues.

Friends have already raised tickets and got the regular spiel about this issue.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@RedCobra.7693 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:been playing this game all week, no lag, decided to just try out thunderhead peaks, immediatly 200ms ping and huge lag spikes.

I've added you ingame join my party come to thunderhead peaks and see for yourself. youre in complete denial for some reason, lag isnt just lag theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it.

for the record i'm ONLY getting this in season 4 maps and occasionally in PoF

I average 120ish ping. I have gone onto the maps numerous times to see if I would be having the same issues which I have not. I’ve tested that map at least a dozen times over the past month or so. I’ve seen people complaining about lag when I’m standing right next to them and not having any issues.

Lag is just lag. Just because there are various sources doesn’t change that. Also, since you specifically said “ theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it” then I guess that means that you also understand that it can also not be due to the servers.

As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale. It’s a theory that will likely never be “proved”. Despite all that, there are still players that do not experience any issues on those maps as well.

I work for an ISP, I wish we had customers like you that shoot down other customers when they raise a complaint. Instead there is a large influx of people complaining about Map specific lag, not servers not isps not region. both coming from NA and EU about LS4 maps in particular. this means it is anets responsibility.

There’s a difference between shooting down someone’s complaint versus saying their accusation to the cause of it is wrong. I’m not dismissing that they’re experiencing lag; just their claims that it’s the servers.

If there’s is an issue with how a map was designed in regards to handling data then certainly it’s something Anet could work to resolve. I have no idea if that’s the case. You also need to take into account that not all players are affected so the primary source is likely somewhere other than on Anet’s end.

"As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale."youre finally getting it, it is suspected (since we dont work for anet) that there is something crucially different about these maps causing issues.

Friends have already raised tickets and got the regular spiel about this issue.

Then the issue for the players was then determined to not be on Anet’s end.

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RedCobra.7693

RedCobra.7693

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:been playing this game all week, no lag, decided to just try out thunderhead peaks, immediatly 200ms ping and huge lag spikes.

I've added you ingame join my party come to thunderhead peaks and see for yourself. youre in complete denial for some reason, lag isnt just lag theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it.

for the record i'm ONLY getting this in season 4 maps and occasionally in PoF

I average 120ish ping. I have gone onto the maps numerous times to see if I would be having the same issues which I have not. I’ve tested that map at least a dozen times over the past month or so. I’ve seen people complaining about lag when I’m standing right next to them and not having any issues.

Lag is just lag. Just because there are various sources doesn’t change that. Also, since you specifically said “ theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it” then I guess that means that you also understand that it can also not be due to the servers.

As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale. It’s a theory that will likely never be “proved”. Despite all that, there are still players that do not experience any issues on those maps as well.

I work for an ISP, I wish we had customers like you that shoot down other customers when they raise a complaint. Instead there is a large influx of people complaining about Map specific lag, not servers not isps not region. both coming from NA and EU about LS4 maps in particular. this means it is anets responsibility.

There’s a difference between shooting down someone’s complaint versus saying their accusation to the cause of it is wrong. I’m not dismissing that they’re experiencing lag; just their claims that it’s the servers.

If there’s is an issue with how a map was designed in regards to handling data then certainly it’s something Anet could work to resolve. I have no idea if that’s the case. You also need to take into account that not all players are affected so the primary source is likely somewhere other than on Anet’s end.

"As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale."youre finally getting it, it is suspected (since we dont work for anet) that there is something crucially different about these maps causing issues.

Friends have already raised tickets and got the regular spiel about this issue.

Then the issue for the players was then determined to not be on Anet’s end.

when did I say it was the servers? I very much doubt its the servers, AWS are powerhouses. I'm calling it now that this is an application issue.

let me reiterate, I have NEVER recieved any lag spikes in the 8 years I have played this game in any map other than the LS4 maps.

youre plain wrong simple as, I've provided evidence that players are experiencing this issue with latency spikes from BOTH NA and EU (cant be network route related).

that fact you're so in denial that there is a larger issue at hand is laughable. anet (as I have shown) have shown that they are aware that a number of players are experiencing latency issues and are looking into it.

People are complaining that they had to wait long for anet to even acknowledge this and have now been waiting for over a month to get an update on something that is literally making the maps unplayable. like I said if I kept any of my clients waiting for information for over a month I would be fired. the lack of communication is unacceptable you can't deny that no matter how much denial you are in.

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Zok.4956

Zok.4956

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

Yeah, that post does not feel like a honest response to me, but more like typical corporate-speak.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

Since that post, we’ve had a few players post that when they had reached out to Anet, their particular issue was determined to be due to their ISP. I think one may have been because of something on their end with their PC. I can’t remember.

Two posts (from me) that show that there is a problem on Anets side (it is not the internet, it is not the customer, it is not the ISP of the costumer) that Anet has to fix:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1328421/#Comment_1328421https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1332422/#Comment_1332422

Sure, there are probably players that have packet loss because of bad WLAN/cable/ISP/Internet, but this does not negate the fact that there are problems on Anets side.

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

Here is a good explanation: (from @"VoxShatterfall.5470").https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1279563/#Comment_1279563I do not know how close to the reality the explanation is, but from a technical point of view it seems consistent and could make sense.

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RedCobra.7693

RedCobra.7693

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@Zok.4956 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

Yeah, that post does not feel like a honest response to me, but more like typical corporate-speak.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

Since that post, we’ve had a few players post that when they had reached out to Anet, their particular issue was determined to be due to their ISP. I think one may have been because of something on their end with their PC. I can’t remember.

Two posts (from me) that show that there is a problem on Anets side (it is not the internet, it is not the customer, it is not the ISP of the costumer) that Anet has to fix:

Sure, there are probably players that have packet loss because of bad WLAN/cable/ISP/Internet, but this does not negate the fact that there are problems on Anets side.

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

Here is a good explanation: (from @"VoxShatterfall.5470").
I do not know how close to the reality the explanation is, but from a technical point of view it seems consistent and could make sense.

I dont think running pings and traces with IP's is going to help at all, its also not going to make a difference to Ayrilana

Maps can have the same IP at the same time, it isnt one IP per map. while these IP's change

I had this with a friend staying in jahai bluffs with IP 18.196.234.184 and I received the same IP address within thunderhead peaks and recieved latency spikes, he then proceeded to join me and recieved latency spikes also. considering EU and NA have this same exact issue I highly doubt its related to any route inbetween anets servers and end users and extremely likely this is a software/application issue with the maps themselves.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@RedCobra.7693 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:been playing this game all week, no lag, decided to just try out thunderhead peaks, immediatly 200ms ping and huge lag spikes.

I've added you ingame join my party come to thunderhead peaks and see for yourself. youre in complete denial for some reason, lag isnt just lag theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it.

for the record i'm ONLY getting this in season 4 maps and occasionally in PoF

I average 120ish ping. I have gone onto the maps numerous times to see if I would be having the same issues which I have not. I’ve tested that map at least a dozen times over the past month or so. I’ve seen people complaining about lag when I’m standing right next to them and not having any issues.

Lag is just lag. Just because there are various sources doesn’t change that. Also, since you specifically said “ theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it” then I guess that means that you also understand that it can also not be due to the servers.

As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale. It’s a theory that will likely never be “proved”. Despite all that, there are still players that do not experience any issues on those maps as well.

I work for an ISP, I wish we had customers like you that shoot down other customers when they raise a complaint. Instead there is a large influx of people complaining about Map specific lag, not servers not isps not region. both coming from NA and EU about LS4 maps in particular. this means it is anets responsibility.

There’s a difference between shooting down someone’s complaint versus saying their accusation to the cause of it is wrong. I’m not dismissing that they’re experiencing lag; just their claims that it’s the servers.

If there’s is an issue with how a map was designed in regards to handling data then certainly it’s something Anet could work to resolve. I have no idea if that’s the case. You also need to take into account that not all players are affected so the primary source is likely somewhere other than on Anet’s end.

"As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale."youre finally getting it, it is suspected (since we dont work for anet) that there is something crucially different about these maps causing issues.

Friends have already raised tickets and got the regular spiel about this issue.

Then the issue for the players was then determined to not be on Anet’s end.

when did I say it was the servers? I very much doubt its the servers, AWS are powerhouses. I'm calling it now that this is an application issue.

You didn’t specifically state it was so I was going off what everyone else on the forums blame. Thank you for clarifying.

let me reiterate, I have NEVER recieved any lag spikes in the 8 years I have played this game in any map other than the LS4 maps.

youre plain wrong simple as, I've provided evidence that players are experiencing this issue with latency spikes from BOTH NA and EU (cant be network route related).

What evidence? A handful of posts? A few screenshots of map chat?

Everything that you have provided have not ruled out it being network related.

that fact you're so in denial that there is a larger issue at hand is laughable. anet (as I have shown) have shown that they are aware that a number of players are experiencing latency issues and are looking into it.

I have not been denying that lag is an issue. Please refrain from making false accusations. Them working with players doesn’t necessarily mean the issue in on their end. This has been evident by posts some players have made who were in contact with support.

People are complaining that they had to wait long for anet to even acknowledge this and have now been waiting for over a month to get an update on something that is literally making the maps unplayable. like I said if I kept any of my clients waiting for information for over a month I would be fired. the lack of communication is unacceptable you can't deny that no matter how much denial you are in.

They could certainly provide a summary of what the cause(s) we’re determined for the players that they have helped so far. Would that satisfy you? What if none of the causes were on Anet’s end?

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@Zok.4956 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

Yeah, that post does not feel like a honest response to me, but more like typical corporate-speak.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

Since that post, we’ve had a few players post that when they had reached out to Anet, their particular issue was determined to be due to their ISP. I think one may have been because of something on their end with their PC. I can’t remember.

Two posts (from me) that show that there is a problem on Anets side (it is not the internet, it is not the customer, it is not the ISP of the costumer) that Anet has to fix:

Sure, there are probably players that have packet loss because of bad WLAN/cable/ISP/Internet, but this does not negate the fact that there are problems on Anets side.

ICMP requests are different from the data packets that get sent between the servers. Running a ping doesn’t show the route that the data takes back from the servers to the player.

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

Here is a good explanation: (from @"VoxShatterfall.5470").
I do not know how close to the reality the explanation is, but from a technical point of view it seems consistent and could make sense.

The issue with that is that some players consistently have issues while others consistently don’t. That player’s post would imply that the software is specifically choosing the same players over and over to de-prioritize. That seems unlikely.

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RedCobra.7693

RedCobra.7693

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:been playing this game all week, no lag, decided to just try out thunderhead peaks, immediatly 200ms ping and huge lag spikes.

I've added you ingame join my party come to thunderhead peaks and see for yourself. youre in complete denial for some reason, lag isnt just lag theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it.

for the record i'm ONLY getting this in season 4 maps and occasionally in PoF

I average 120ish ping. I have gone onto the maps numerous times to see if I would be having the same issues which I have not. I’ve tested that map at least a dozen times over the past month or so. I’ve seen people complaining about lag when I’m standing right next to them and not having any issues.

Lag is just lag. Just because there are various sources doesn’t change that. Also, since you specifically said “ theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it” then I guess that means that you also understand that it can also not be due to the servers.

As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale. It’s a theory that will likely never be “proved”. Despite all that, there are still players that do not experience any issues on those maps as well.

I work for an ISP, I wish we had customers like you that shoot down other customers when they raise a complaint. Instead there is a large influx of people complaining about Map specific lag, not servers not isps not region. both coming from NA and EU about LS4 maps in particular. this means it is anets responsibility.

There’s a difference between shooting down someone’s complaint versus saying their accusation to the cause of it is wrong. I’m not dismissing that they’re experiencing lag; just their claims that it’s the servers.

If there’s is an issue with how a map was designed in regards to handling data then certainly it’s something Anet could work to resolve. I have no idea if that’s the case. You also need to take into account that not all players are affected so the primary source is likely somewhere other than on Anet’s end.

"As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale."youre finally getting it, it is suspected (since we dont work for anet) that there is something crucially different about these maps causing issues.

Friends have already raised tickets and got the regular spiel about this issue.

Then the issue for the players was then determined to not be on Anet’s end.

when did I say it was the servers? I very much doubt its the servers, AWS are powerhouses. I'm calling it now that this is an application issue.

You didn’t specifically state it was so I was going off what everyone else on the forums blame. Thank you for clarifying.

let me reiterate, I have NEVER recieved any lag spikes in the 8 years I have played this game in any map other than the LS4 maps.

youre plain wrong simple as, I've provided evidence that players are experiencing this issue with latency spikes from BOTH NA and EU (cant be network route related).

What evidence? A handful of posts? A few screenshots of map chat?

Everything that you have provided have not ruled out it being network related.

that fact you're so in denial that there is a larger issue at hand is laughable. anet (as I have shown) have shown that they are aware that a number of players are experiencing latency issues and are looking into it.

I have not been denying that lag is an issue. Please refrain from making false accusations. Them working with players doesn’t necessarily mean the issue in on their end. This has been evident by posts some players have made who were in contact with support.

People are complaining that they had to wait long for anet to even acknowledge this and have now been waiting for over a month to get an update on something that is literally making the maps unplayable. like I said if I kept any of my clients waiting for information for over a month I would be fired. the lack of communication is unacceptable you can't deny that no matter how much denial you are in.

They could certainly provide a summary of what the cause(s) we’re determined for the players that they have helped so far. Would that satisfy you? What if none of the causes were on Anet’s end?

A handful of posts? they were just the first I found, the comments for this issue are in the thousands.also I have never said this issue is definitely with anets equipment, I said it is their responsibility to investigate and report back to their customers, I've paid for a service, this isn't a charity.

also for the 4th time, players from both NA and EU are experiencing the same issue, and by same issue I specifically mean recieving latency spikes in maps such as Thunderhead peaks and not core or HoT. this rules out firewall issues in EU or network routes from NA, its specifically with the deployment i.e software/application.

also another post popped up today, please comment on it telling them its there ISP should be funnyhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/115175/any-fix-on-the-horizon-for-lag-in-pof-maps#latest

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@RedCobra.7693 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

Yeah, that post does not feel like a honest response to me, but more like typical corporate-speak.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

Since that post, we’ve had a few players post that when they had reached out to Anet, their particular issue was determined to be due to their ISP. I think one may have been because of something on their end with their PC. I can’t remember.

Two posts (from me) that show that there is a problem on Anets side (it is not the internet, it is not the customer, it is not the ISP of the costumer) that Anet has to fix:

Sure, there are probably players that have packet loss because of bad WLAN/cable/ISP/Internet, but this does not negate the fact that there are problems on Anets side.

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

Here is a good explanation: (from @"VoxShatterfall.5470").
I do not know how close to the reality the explanation is, but from a technical point of view it seems consistent and could make sense.

I dont think running pings and traces with IP's is going to help at all

facts usually help more than speculation. I do not know if you have looked and read the second post. I did proove, that the lag spikes I experienced during my test in Thunderhead Peaks are in fact caused by Anets servers (server systems, software, ..).

Maps can have the same IP at the same time, it isnt one IP per map. while these IP's change

A specific map instance can only have one IP. If two players are in Thunderhead Peaks and have the same /ip, they are in the same map-instance. There are no two Thunderhead Peaks maps (instances) that will have the same IP at the same time. If players are in Thunderhead Peaks but have not the same /ip, they are in differente maps-instances.

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RedCobra.7693

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@Zok.4956 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

Yeah, that post does not feel like a honest response to me, but more like typical corporate-speak.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

Since that post, we’ve had a few players post that when they had reached out to Anet, their particular issue was determined to be due to their ISP. I think one may have been because of something on their end with their PC. I can’t remember.

Two posts (from me) that show that there is a problem on Anets side (it is not the internet, it is not the customer, it is not the ISP of the costumer) that Anet has to fix:

Sure, there are probably players that have packet loss because of bad WLAN/cable/ISP/Internet, but this does not negate the fact that there are problems on Anets side.

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

Here is a good explanation: (from @"VoxShatterfall.5470").
I do not know how close to the reality the explanation is, but from a technical point of view it seems consistent and could make sense.

I dont think running pings and traces with IP's is going to help at all

facts usually help more than speculation. I do not know if you have looked and read the second post. I did proove, that the lag spikes I experienced during my test in Thunderhead Peaks are in fact caused by Anets servers (server systems, software, ..).

Maps can have the same IP at the same time, it isnt one IP per map. while these IP's change

A specific map instance can only have one IP. If two players are in Thunderhead Peaks and have the same /ip, they are in the same map-instance. There are no two Thunderhead Peaks maps (instances) that will have the same IP at the same time. If players are in Thunderhead Peaks but have not the same /ip, they are in differente maps-instances.

you should re-read what I said, jahai bluffs had the same IP address as Thunderhead peaks at the same time 18.196.234.184 i didnt say the same map had the same IP in two different instances, data will be NAT'd after that and map instances will be on private addresses.

theres too much conflicting information with the diagnostics that has been posted. and first and foremost with large issues you should be identifying trends. so far the only trends that have been established by the community are

  • predominately on LS4 and PoF maps
  • Does not affect all players but a large enough majority to spark discussion.
  • this affects both EU and NA
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Zok.4956

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

Yeah, that post does not feel like a honest response to me, but more like typical corporate-speak.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

Since that post, we’ve had a few players post that when they had reached out to Anet, their particular issue was determined to be due to their ISP. I think one may have been because of something on their end with their PC. I can’t remember.

Two posts (from me) that show that there is a problem on Anets side (it is not the internet, it is not the customer, it is not the ISP of the costumer) that Anet has to fix:

Sure, there are probably players that have packet loss because of bad WLAN/cable/ISP/Internet, but this does not negate the fact that there are problems on Anets side.

ICMP requests are different from the data packets that get sent between the servers. Running a ping doesn’t show the route that the data takes back from the servers to the player.

yeah, I know, its complicated technical stuff, so I just give you the summary from the second link where I examined the data packets during my ThunderHead Peaks skill-lag:

"Summary: The map-server (hardware, software, virtual-system, etc.) sometimes does not send data-packets to the game-client, this is not a normal server behaviour on a map where something happens and it results in a client that can not update its own state (skill activations, position of other players/npc etc...) during this communication-silence and this is a reason for skill-lag."

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

Here is a good explanation: (from @"VoxShatterfall.5470").
I do not know how close to the reality the explanation is, but from a technical point of view it seems consistent and could make sense.

The issue with that is that some players consistently have issues while others consistently don’t. That player’s post would imply that the software is specifically choosing the same players over and over to de-prioritize. That seems unlikely.

non-deterministic software/systems bugs ("strange behaviour") happens a lot more often than most people (and developers) can imagine.

But it doesn't matter if VoxShatterfalls explanation seems likely or unlikely to us. Because it is not the customers job to explain why the system behaves (sometimes) like it does. It is Anets job to find the bug(s) and fix them.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@RedCobra.7693 said:been playing this game all week, no lag, decided to just try out thunderhead peaks, immediatly 200ms ping and huge lag spikes.

I've added you ingame join my party come to thunderhead peaks and see for yourself. youre in complete denial for some reason, lag isnt just lag theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it.

for the record i'm ONLY getting this in season 4 maps and occasionally in PoF

I average 120ish ping. I have gone onto the maps numerous times to see if I would be having the same issues which I have not. I’ve tested that map at least a dozen times over the past month or so. I’ve seen people complaining about lag when I’m standing right next to them and not having any issues.

Lag is just lag. Just because there are various sources doesn’t change that. Also, since you specifically said “ theres a massive variety of reasons that can cause it” then I guess that means that you also understand that it can also not be due to the servers.

As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale. It’s a theory that will likely never be “proved”. Despite all that, there are still players that do not experience any issues on those maps as well.

I work for an ISP, I wish we had customers like you that shoot down other customers when they raise a complaint. Instead there is a large influx of people complaining about Map specific lag, not servers not isps not region. both coming from NA and EU about LS4 maps in particular. this means it is anets responsibility.

There’s a difference between shooting down someone’s complaint versus saying their accusation to the cause of it is wrong. I’m not dismissing that they’re experiencing lag; just their claims that it’s the servers.

If there’s is an issue with how a map was designed in regards to handling data then certainly it’s something Anet could work to resolve. I have no idea if that’s the case. You also need to take into account that not all players are affected so the primary source is likely somewhere other than on Anet’s end.

"As for it being only LS4 maps, this could be due to how those maps handle data sent back and forth between the client and servers versus other maps like Queensdale."youre finally getting it, it is suspected (since we dont work for anet) that there is something crucially different about these maps causing issues.

Friends have already raised tickets and got the regular spiel about this issue.

Then the issue for the players was then determined to not be on Anet’s end.

when did I say it was the servers? I very much doubt its the servers, AWS are powerhouses. I'm calling it now that this is an application issue.

You didn’t specifically state it was so I was going off what everyone else on the forums blame. Thank you for clarifying.

let me reiterate, I have NEVER recieved any lag spikes in the 8 years I have played this game in any map other than the LS4 maps.

youre plain wrong simple as, I've provided evidence that players are experiencing this issue with latency spikes from BOTH NA and EU (cant be network route related).

What evidence? A handful of posts? A few screenshots of map chat?

Everything that you have provided have not ruled out it being network related.

that fact you're so in denial that there is a larger issue at hand is laughable. anet (as I have shown) have shown that they are aware that a number of players are experiencing latency issues and are looking into it.

I have not been denying that lag is an issue. Please refrain from making false accusations. Them working with players doesn’t necessarily mean the issue in on their end. This has been evident by posts some players have made who were in contact with support.

People are complaining that they had to wait long for anet to even acknowledge this and have now been waiting for over a month to get an update on something that is literally making the maps unplayable. like I said if I kept any of my clients waiting for information for over a month I would be fired. the lack of communication is unacceptable you can't deny that no matter how much denial you are in.

They could certainly provide a summary of what the cause(s) we’re determined for the players that they have helped so far. Would that satisfy you? What if none of the causes were on Anet’s end?

A handful of posts? they were just the first I found, the comments for this issue are in the thousands.

Despite the number of posts that have actually been made by unique players, none of those are representative of the entire player base to make the claim that the large majority of the player base are experiencing issues.

also I have never said this issue is definitely with anets equipment, I said it is their responsibility to investigate and report back to their customers, I've paid for a service, this isn't a charity.

They certainly should provide an update.

also for the 4th time, players from both NA and EU are experiencing the same issue, and by same issue I specifically mean recieving latency spikes in maps such as Thunderhead peaks and not core or HoT. this rules out firewall issues in EU or network routes from NA, its specifically with the deployment i.e software/application.

It’s well within the realm of possibility that more than one part of the vast internet network can experience an issue at the same time. Especially with everything being overloaded with more activity due to the pandemic.

also another post popped up today, please comment on it telling them its there ISP should be funnyhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/115175/any-fix-on-the-horizon-for-lag-in-pof-maps#latest

Did you post the wrong thread?

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Zok.4956

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@RedCobra.7693 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

Yeah, that post does not feel like a honest response to me, but more like typical corporate-speak.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

Since that post, we’ve had a few players post that when they had reached out to Anet, their particular issue was determined to be due to their ISP. I think one may have been because of something on their end with their PC. I can’t remember.

Two posts (from me) that show that there is a problem on Anets side (it is not the internet, it is not the customer, it is not the ISP of the costumer) that Anet has to fix:

Sure, there are probably players that have packet loss because of bad WLAN/cable/ISP/Internet, but this does not negate the fact that there are problems on Anets side.

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

Here is a good explanation: (from @"VoxShatterfall.5470").
I do not know how close to the reality the explanation is, but from a technical point of view it seems consistent and could make sense.

I dont think running pings and traces with IP's is going to help at all

facts usually help more than speculation. I do not know if you have looked and read the second post. I did proove, that the lag spikes I experienced during my test in Thunderhead Peaks are in fact caused by Anets servers (server systems, software, ..).

Maps can have the same IP at the same time, it isnt one IP per map. while these IP's change

A specific map instance can only have one IP. If two players are in Thunderhead Peaks and have the same /ip, they are in the same map-instance. There are no two Thunderhead Peaks maps (instances) that will have the same IP at the same time. If players are in Thunderhead Peaks but have not the same /ip, they are in differente maps-instances.

you should re-read what I said, jahai bluffs had the same IP address as Thunderhead peaks at the same time 18.196.234.184 i didnt say the same map had the same IP in two different instances, data will be NAT'd after that and map instances will be on private addresses.

I did re-read it and still do not understand, what you wanted to say/correct with your response. Because I did not say, that there could only be one map behind an IP.

theres too much conflicting information with the diagnostics that has been posted.

Do you mean that there is something wrong/confliction information inhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1332422/#Comment_1332422or is this a more general statement?

and first and foremost with large issues you should be identifying trends.

Sure. That is often a good starting point.

so far the only trends that have been established by the community are

  • predominately on LS4 and PoF maps
  • Does not affect all players but a large enough majority to spark discussion.
  • this affects both EU and NA

I do agree with that. I actually wrote the first two items myself some time ago. And for me (I do not work for Anet, but I often search and fix software/server/network issues as part of my work) it would be enough to take a closer look into the systems and to make internal tests and measurements before I would blame the customers. Because this trends point to Anets servers/systems/software.

But for some this is not enough and they still believe that it is mostly the internets/players fault. So I tried to make some measurements to replace opinion with fact and my above post with the traces of the tcp-data-connection did show proof that in fact Anets servers/systems/server-game-software (and nothing else) caused skill-/lag-spikes during my test.

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RedCobra.7693

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@Zok.4956 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

Yeah, that post does not feel like a honest response to me, but more like typical corporate-speak.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

Since that post, we’ve had a few players post that when they had reached out to Anet, their particular issue was determined to be due to their ISP. I think one may have been because of something on their end with their PC. I can’t remember.

Two posts (from me) that show that there is a problem on Anets side (it is not the internet, it is not the customer, it is not the ISP of the costumer) that Anet has to fix:

Sure, there are probably players that have packet loss because of bad WLAN/cable/ISP/Internet, but this does not negate the fact that there are problems on Anets side.

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

Here is a good explanation: (from @"VoxShatterfall.5470").
I do not know how close to the reality the explanation is, but from a technical point of view it seems consistent and could make sense.

I dont think running pings and traces with IP's is going to help at all

facts usually help more than speculation. I do not know if you have looked and read the second post. I did proove, that the lag spikes I experienced during my test in Thunderhead Peaks are in fact caused by Anets servers (server systems, software, ..).

Maps can have the same IP at the same time, it isnt one IP per map. while these IP's change

A specific map instance can only have one IP. If two players are in Thunderhead Peaks and have the same /ip, they are in the same map-instance. There are no two Thunderhead Peaks maps (instances) that will have the same IP at the same time. If players are in Thunderhead Peaks but have not the same /ip, they are in differente maps-instances.

you should re-read what I said, jahai bluffs had the same IP address as Thunderhead peaks at the same time 18.196.234.184 i didnt say the same map had the same IP in two different instances, data will be NAT'd after that and map instances will be on private addresses.

I did re-read it and still do not understand, what you wanted to say/correct with your response. Because I did not say, that there could only be one map behind an IP.

theres too much conflicting information with the diagnostics that has been posted.

Do you mean that there is something wrong/confliction information in
or is this a more general statement?

and first and foremost with large issues you should be identifying trends.

Sure. That is often a good starting point.

so far the only trends that have been established by the community are
  • predominately on LS4 and PoF maps
  • Does not affect all players but a large enough majority to spark discussion.
  • this affects both EU and NA

I do agree with that. I actually wrote the first two items myself some time ago. And for me (I do not work for Anet, but I often search and fix software/server/network issues as part of my work) it would be enough to take a closer look into the systems and to make internal tests and measurements before I would blame the customers. Because this trends point to Anets servers/systems/software.

But for some this is not enough and they still believe that it is mostly the internets/players fault. So I tried to make some measurements to replace opinion with fact and my above post with the traces of the tcp-data-connection did show proof that in fact Anets servers/systems/server-game-software (and nothing else) caused skill-/lag-spikes during my test.

yeah I agree there just wouldnt want you wasting too much time as we as players dont have the whole picture, even with stats we're somewhat forced to speculate. I've raised my own ticket with support and encouraged my guild and friends to do the same. all but one (out of 40) have experienced the same issues. all from different countries in EU, I also have friends from Australia and New York who have the exact same issue too, consistently, half of them only experiencing it with LS4 and the other half experiencing it with LS4 and PoF.

If this was as simple as a network issue I imagine any freshman out college could have at least identified the source by now maybe not the cause but definitely the source. so it must be more complicated than we imagine. anet have a long history of keeping quiet unless they are 100% certain of something anyway so all we can do is raise tickets and generate those trends for anet to look at. thats our responsibility. however it would be nice to see people coming to the forums and raising awareness about these issues they are experiencing not shot down with "its your ISP/ its your fault" I expect this from support 1st line as they dont have the time to read at first every single support request with the size of the customer base they are dealing with. however another player reading the forum should be able to put two and two together rather quickly and deduce that they are referring to something not specific to themselves.

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Ayrilana.1396

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@Zok.4956 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

Yeah, that post does not feel like a honest response to me, but more like typical corporate-speak.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

Since that post, we’ve had a few players post that when they had reached out to Anet, their particular issue was determined to be due to their ISP. I think one may have been because of something on their end with their PC. I can’t remember.

Two posts (from me) that show that there is a problem on Anets side (it is not the internet, it is not the customer, it is not the ISP of the costumer) that Anet has to fix:

Sure, there are probably players that have packet loss because of bad WLAN/cable/ISP/Internet, but this does not negate the fact that there are problems on Anets side.

ICMP requests are different from the data packets that get sent between the servers. Running a ping doesn’t show the route that the data takes back from the servers to the player.

yeah, I know, its complicated technical stuff, so I just give you the summary from the second link where I examined the data packets during my ThunderHead Peaks skill-lag:

"Summary: The map-server (hardware, software, virtual-system, etc.) sometimes does not send data-packets to the game-client, this is not a normal server behaviour on a map where something happens and it results in a client that can not update its own state (skill activations, position of other players/npc etc...) during this communication-silence and this is a reason for skill-lag."

Did you take into consideration the impact of the game using TCP? What about that the data packets sent from the client may not be following the same route when sent from the server?

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

Here is a good explanation: (from @"VoxShatterfall.5470").
I do not know how close to the reality the explanation is, but from a technical point of view it seems consistent and could make sense.

The issue with that is that some players consistently have issues while others consistently don’t. That player’s post would imply that the software is specifically choosing the same players over and over to de-prioritize. That seems unlikely.

non-deterministic software/systems bugs ("strange behaviour") happens a lot more often than most people (and developers) can imagine.

But it doesn't matter if VoxShatterfalls explanation seems likely or unlikely to us. Because it is not the customers job to explain
why
the system behaves (sometimes) like it does. It is Anets job to find the bug(s) and fix them.

Sure bugs happen but is it realistic to believe that one could have occurred which consistently targets specific players while ignoring others?

Yes, it’s not on the customers to explain why the system behaves like it does. It is also Anet’s job to find and fix any bugs assuming they actually exist.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@RedCobra.7693 said:it has been clear for months that this is something that anet need to sort out

Based on what?

heres the response from anet long awaited.

Nowhere in that post does Anet say that it’s on their end.

Yeah, that post does not feel like a honest response to me, but more like typical corporate-speak.

And? None of those posts rule out it being the connection between them and the servers. It also doesn’t necessarily rule out the issue being on their end entirely either.

Since that post, we’ve had a few players post that when they had reached out to Anet, their particular issue was determined to be due to their ISP. I think one may have been because of something on their end with their PC. I can’t remember.

Two posts (from me) that show that there is a problem on Anets side (it is not the internet, it is not the customer, it is not the ISP of the costumer) that Anet has to fix:

Sure, there are probably players that have packet loss because of bad WLAN/cable/ISP/Internet, but this does not negate the fact that there are problems on Anets side.

ICMP requests are different from the data packets that get sent between the servers. Running a ping doesn’t show the route that the data takes back from the servers to the player.

yeah, I know, its complicated technical stuff, so I just give you the summary from the second link where I examined the data packets during my ThunderHead Peaks skill-lag:

"Summary: The map-server (hardware, software, virtual-system, etc.) sometimes does not send data-packets to the game-client, this is not a normal server behaviour on a map where something happens and it results in a client that can not update its own state (skill activations, position of other players/npc etc...) during this communication-silence and this is a reason for skill-lag."

Did you take into consideration the impact of the game using TCP?

Yes, because (in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1332422/#Comment_1332422 ) I looked at the TCP-data-stream and the TCP-data-flow-patterns.

What about that the data packets sent from the client may not be following the same route when sent from the server?

No problem with that. The way the data packets travel does not matter if I have a "test sample" (which I had during my above measurement)) where the TCP-connection between client and server itself is clean and without any signs (retransmissions, tcp-sequence numer mismatchs etc. etc.) of packet-loss in the layers below TCP.

many players already found this issue is more prominent on the LS4 maps and some PoF maps the fact that people keep repeating the "Check your ISP" comment is a bit moot at this point.

And yet others on the exact same map instance doing the exact same meta have no issues.

Here is a good explanation: (from @"VoxShatterfall.5470").
I do not know how close to the reality the explanation is, but from a technical point of view it seems consistent and could make sense.

The issue with that is that some players consistently have issues while others consistently don’t. That player’s post would imply that the software is specifically choosing the same players over and over to de-prioritize. That seems unlikely.

non-deterministic software/systems bugs ("strange behaviour") happens a lot more often than most people (and developers) can imagine.

But it doesn't matter if VoxShatterfalls explanation seems likely or unlikely to us. Because it is not the customers job to explain
why
the system behaves (sometimes) like it does. It is Anets job to find the bug(s) and fix them.

Sure bugs happen but is it realistic to believe that one could have occurred which consistently targets specific players while ignoring others?

Yes, it is realistic. I did find a few of this kind of bugs in the real world in my job.

Some examples (I do not say, that these are Anets bugs, they are just examples):

  • Customer data is (surprisingly) stored in internal data-structures in RAM and data from only some customers is very often stored in the same faulty memory area (with interesting effects).
  • A software bug only happens because some customer-data-ids are below or above some limits (or only uneven/even numbers/ids have problems), or they are sorted internally (alphabetically, numerically, or some custom/hash algo) and entries that are (always) in the beginning/end of internal data tables are affected.
  • Sometimes data structures are not properly initialized and the resulting bug only has an impact on some customers/data records/binary data that match a specific pattern.

These are some examples, of bugs that happened in reality (and were found and fixed) and (kind of) only targeted specific customers. Sure, other bugs happen more often and are easier to find and to fix.

I do not know what causes the actual bugs at Anets servers/systems/software. But I guess if the bugs would have been easy to find (and easy to fix), Anet would have fixed them already.

Several weeks ago Anet reduced the player map limit in WvW because they wanted to see if this helps with the lag and lag spikes in WvW. My guess: They do not wanted to fix the lag in WvW but used the WvW maps/population as a test area for the PvE lags and have no real idea what causes the bugs.

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