What the skritt counters Renegod

[Kachros.4751]

Whose to say that bunkers require little mechanical skill? If you're playing Kalla/Jallis Ren then you need to be mindful of your positioning due to quirks with shortbow and your inherently low mobility, manage your resources (Energy and legend swaps), play around opposing conditions because they will wreck you, you must be mindful that your cleanses are not interrupted. Both are 1 second casts and a skilled player will interupt it if you cast it thoughtlessly. Good Renegades will also time their staff evades well and make use of weakness to mitigate bursts.

I say it requires little mechanical skill as you only need to meet 2 aspects to get value in the build: 1. Use road then spirits and keep road up as much as possible. 2. Camp shortbow unless a 1v2 happens. Granted there is a huge difference between a good and a bad renegade but the fact renegade is spammable and has almost 0 counterplay shows its unhealthy for the game, any bunker is unhealthy for the game because it promotes "build over skill", no one enjoys having to just move off node because (even with celestial amulet) you can get bursted and down in 5 sec, and you cant counterplay it because the spirits have stability. Not to mention the weakness spam it can provide, the CCs, the kite potential and the resustain potential. Its overall low mechanically skilled and proves to stay that way if played even the slightest bit correctly. PvP is about viability of classes, rotations, mechanical skill, theorycrafting and renegade is gatekeeping almost all of it.

All of these micro-decisions and more come into play in determining whether a bunker Renegade is good or not. How well you can execute these things is what seperates your average bunker who gets 1 shot in the +1 from the one who kites around node buying time and gaining value by existing. It's an impressive skill, even if not particularly flashy.

I mean in all honesty all ive said is from high level games and good players, a situation in which renegade will be bursted at the start and die is very low chance to happen and even if we get a good burst they can resustain because as soon as road is down we cant CC or interrupt anything without a thief steal, but that doesnt matter because staff 3/5 can allow disengage and healbreaker would easily resustain it. Nor can we follow as right after they might fail jalis heal, they can switch n spam spirits on road then you cant follow. Its hard to punish a renegade, even a decent one.

[Kuma.1503]

@"Kachros.4751" said:

Whose to say that bunkers require little mechanical skill? If you're playing Kalla/Jallis Ren then you need to be mindful of your positioning due to quirks with shortbow and your inherently low mobility, manage your resources (Energy and legend swaps), play around opposing conditions because they

will

wreck you, you

must

be mindful that your cleanses are not interrupted. Both are 1 second casts and a skilled player will interupt it if you cast it thoughtlessly. Good Renegades will also time their staff evades well and make use of weakness to mitigate bursts.

I say it requires little mechanical skill as you only need to meet 2 aspects to get value in the build: 1. Use road then spirits and keep road up as much as possible. 2. Camp shortbow unless a 1v2 happens. Granted there is a huge difference between a good and a bad renegade but the fact renegade is spammable and has almost 0 counterplay shows its unhealthy for the game, any bunker is unhealthy for the game because it promotes "build over skill", no one enjoys having to just move off node because (even with celestial amulet) you can get bursted and down in 5 sec, and you cant counterplay it because the spirits have stability. Not to mention the weakness spam it can provide, the CCs, the kite potential and the resustain potential. Its overall low mechanically skilled and proves to stay that way if played even the slightest bit correctly. PvP is about viability of classes, rotations, mechanical skill, theorycrafting and renegade is gatekeeping almost all of it.

All of these micro-decisions and more come into play in determining whether a bunker Renegade is good or not. How well you can execute these things is what seperates your average bunker who gets 1 shot in the +1 from the one who kites around node buying time and gaining value by existing. It's an impressive skill, even if not particularly flashy.

I mean in all honesty all ive said is from high level games and good players, a situation in which renegade will be bursted at the start and die is very low chance to happen and even if we get a good burst they can resustain because as soon as road is down we cant CC or interrupt anything without a thief steal, but that doesnt matter because staff 3/5 can allow disengage and healbreaker would easily resustain it. Nor can we follow as right after they might fail jalis heal, they can switch n spam spirits on road then you cant follow. Its hard to punish a renegade, even a decent one.

Contrary to what my posts might lead others to believe. I'd be all down for nerfing something if the reasoning behind it is solid. I'm more interested in seeing Gw2 be the best game it can be than in seeing any particular build destroyed, or even in having my personal favorite build be OP.

However, When people start tossing around false/hyberbolic statements like "0 counterplay" It suggests bias, misinforation, ignorance, or a combination of the three.

[NotFound.7813]

@snoow.1694 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@snoow.1694 said:Guardians used to but Anet decided to kill the entire class and every viable build instead

Burn dh is viable

It‘s not it drops in seconds in every +1 without any chance to kite

Then rank 55 plays a non viable build bruh?

[Kachros.4751]

Contrary to what my posts might lead others to believe. I'd be all down for nerfing something if the reasoning behind it is solid. I'm more interested in seeing Gw2 be the best game it can be than in seeing any particular build destroyed, or even in having my personal favorite build be OP.

However, When people start tossing around false/hyberbolic statements like "0 counterplay" It suggests bias, misinforation, ignorance, or a combination of the three.

What I have said is, in fact, my own views and opinions on the class (as well as numerous others). I have always wanted Gw2 PvP to be the best it can be and I do not wish to kill renegade but in fact nerf its defenses and to some extent nerf any rune with toughness. This will allow more sidenoders to come out for example core ranger or maybe even warrior (should it get the buffs required), the state of the game right now is quite dire due to the meta being quite spammable on most, if not every class. Should (just for example) holosmith damage be nerfed, renegade defense be nerfed, healbreakers heal nerfed and SA thief too. It would allow multiple other builds to come out as well. For example reaper, power revenant, power renegade all in place of holosmith. Warrior/core ranger/crev to be sidenoder in place of renegade and lastly tempest/healbreaker would both be viable options. It would allow pvp to have lots more variety while also increasing the skillcap and brings the idea of making mistakes allows you to be punished, which has been lacking quite severely since the February patch.

[torben.1532]

Yes queen kachros

[ollbirtan.2915]

@Kachros.4751 said:

It‘s not it drops in seconds in every +1 without any chance to kite

Did you see the new guardian build? If anyone with more than 10 IQ decides to play it then it gains a lot of value, and it has loads of kite potential

By your logic, then this build deserves a nerf ASAP. Sound kitten OP to me.

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

Everything counters renegade.

1. condis: poison(great sustain cut), confusion(makes it kill itself), weakness(make it no crit and counters its dodge), slow(great dps cut), chill(destroys its uptime rotations for sustain)
2. Aoe crowd control on summons, if stability field is up, it lasts for 4-5 seconds on summons, so after that aoe cc and while those 4-5 sec just kite and deny renegade to hit you(hide behind terrain/wall). If you are reaper, corrupt stability into fear. If you are speallbreaker- boon strip stability and aoe cc.
3. retaliation boon(makes it kill itself)- true damage(cannot be reduced by anything)
4. life steal-true damage(cannot be reduced by anything
5. Projectile reflect/projectile block
6. bursting, so if you burst renegade, it has no time to set its dps to happen, it just dies(combined with cc=good) so if you can solo burst renegade, you already won...if not you always burst with allies, so set target focus on renegade and tell your team to focus renegade
7. kiting(outrange) deadeye just denies renegade to hit it with its stealth and it bursts renegade from far distance, same for longbow ranger, even greatsword mesmer

What DO NOT counters renegade:

1. long fights, renegade is created to just have stronger dps and sustain over time(thanks to its life steal drain)
2. -% reduction effects almost have no effect vs renegade since its life steal is true damage(same for its retaliation)
3. sitting in its summons or anyway allowing it to hit you while it is in renegade(khalla) mode

Hope i made clear some facts.

[Shao.7236]

Know the skills, Darkrazor on fresh swap is free damage given you can manage to CC the summon which will force evades to be wasted, if you can interrupt both the caster too, you have potentially a free kill.

On Jalis, avoid wasting your skills if you have weakness or damage reduction buffs are effective.

Finally, shortbow is good but not good enough against those who can free cast from far away.

If anything, the most deadly counter to this rev build is another rev, Jade Winds most notably with a fresh swap available can easily turn the fight around because of the telegraphed long winded nature of how people defined this /meta/ build.

(Honestly, no idea how it's making it up the meta when it's easily countered by more things than it can dominate. Need something lazy on top I guess.)

Thieves "easily" counter this thing given they play well, too many instant/fast skills that contain heavy hitters and great interrupts to destroy the very long winded flow of the build.