Diversity — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Diversity

otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited April 3, 2019 in Guardian

This is a thread about diversity. More precisely, the lack of it. This particularly relates to PvP, but it touches on all areas.

Dialing back about 6 month ago (2 balance patches ago to be precise), there were multiple viable PvP builds as follows:

  • Core guardian hammer.
  • Core guardian GS using virtues/radiance/valor.
  • Harrier FB.
  • Support FB.
  • Aegis shatter.
  • Dps/support FB variants.
  • Core guardian, GS using zeal/radiance/valor.

Not all of these were top tier, but all were viable enough to take a competent player to at least P2 (and beyond depending on your skill level).

The Nov 2018 patch effectively eliminated aegis shatter and hammer. Last patch eliminated harrier FB, and for the most part zeal GS, since that build was heavily reliant on damage to survive. All core builds were hit by about 15% damage nerf and 15% HP nerf. They are still viable, but way out of the meta. We went from 7 builds to 3, with really only FB support and dps/support remaining competitive. And the funny thing, last balance patch was supposed to add "diversity."

Since last patch was about radiance grand master diversity, I just want to demonstrate the lack of knowledge here. From all 7 lines pre-last balance patch:

Zeal, only Symbolic Avenger is used in any game mode. There was no change to any of the other traits.
Valor, only Monk's Focus is used in any game mode. There was no change to any of the other traits.
Honor, is a bit more complex. But arguably, Force of Will is the only one that is frequently used. There was no change to any of the traits.
Virtues, Battle Presence is not used in any build.
Dragonhunter, Hunter's Fortification fell out of favor. It had its uses in the past, but as it DH currently stands, there is no reason to spec into a defensive trait.
Firebrand, Stoic Demeanor is not used anywhere. I have a special issue with this one in particular. With all the GM traits, I can at least see a remote use in open world PvP. But this has no use anywhere and for anything.
Radiance was the only line with all three GM traits being effectively used.. anywhere. And yet it is the only line that had a change. Why was everything else ignored..

As for PvE, power builds are pretty much locked into DH GS/scepter, with the only possible improvisation is using sword instead of scepter. Hammer, remains out of contention. FB seen a few buffs, but it is also locked into axe/scepter and torch.

And to be clear, this is not about a specific trait, skill or build. But clearly, there little understanding and thought being put in any of the changes as of late. Instead of having more options, we are mostly down to 2 in every game mode. Especially, that there is no expansion in sight, unless there are more options, the class will just.. lose its player base. And honestly, outside of FB support, there are better options, than every guardian build, in every game mode.

Comments

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Gotta say I threw in the guard towel after the last balance patch.
    FB is just so... Ponderous
    Everything else is too far down the food chain for my taste.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Lunia.2736Lunia.2736 Member ✭✭

    Couldn't agree more. If you want to be competitive in PvP right now you're basically forced into playing a Firebrand.
    Core Guard really doesn't do anything better than other DPS. Like a single Maul hitting harder than your entire Core Guard burst combo...

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lunia.2736 said:
    Couldn't agree more. If you want to be competitive in PvP right now you're basically forced into playing a Firebrand.
    Core Guard really doesn't do anything better than other DPS. Like a single Maul hitting harder than your entire Core Guard burst combo...

    "class evolution" because they dont do stats/armor progression :}

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    I have a question for you Otto , while I agree with you that there is a major disconnect between their constantly talking about build diversity but at the same time wiping it out through the different skill and trait nerfs and this being even more egregious when you see them destroying various build options but at same time being blind to the same built out play style on another class that is even powerful than what was just take away from the guardian. (A great example is that the Firebrand has to much sustain and is to bunkerish so over two or three patches they take alot of that away but then on the last patch they buff the Engineer/Scrapper to a level of even greater bunker ability than the Firebrand had.) So all of this aside what would you do if you could to improve the Guardian and all of it elites diversity, what skills or traits would you change and how, I've been thinking about this myself but would like to hear your(or anybody elses for that matter) thoughts on the matter.

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 There are a couple of things that could be done.

    1) I would inject mobility into the zeal line. It does not offer much in PvP except more damage when using GS. Possibly change change shattered aegis (which is now obsolete) to provide swiftness when using a symbol. Blinding jeopardy, possibly also add mobility. It is useless in its current state.

    2) overall, instead of increasing damage (like restoring RI) I would increase sustainability to be in line with a melee class that has no escape tools. This is primarily for core (but not only).

    VoC, increases toughness by 1,000 for 5 secs.
    WoR, decrease cast time from 1 sec to 0.75 secs.
    Valor line, communal defense and focus mastery change places.
    Virtues solace, remove the passive proc. Receive 15% less damage while standing in your concentrations.

    3) weapons:

    mace to do less healing but offer more damage and better capabilities to block damage.
    Hammer, AA, third chain cast reduced from 1.25 secs to 0.75 sec (and reduce protection uptime from 1 to 0.75 secs). Hammer 2, CD 5 secs, with and without glacial heart. Glacial heart, increase the proc damage by 25% (it does not critic anyway).
    LB, Increase range of LB skills to 1500. LB 5, change the damage scaling to be equally distributed over the cast. Increase the damage of TS by 10%, to match WvW.
    Scepter, make projectiles 50% faster and home to their target.
    Sword 3, damage doubles (PvE only).

    4) DH:

    Piercing light, traps instead of slow do cripple.
    ToF, passing through it immobilize the target for 0.75 sec.
    Heavy light, instead of stability provides quickness.
    Hunter’s determination, remove the current effect. New effect, WoR range is increased to 1,000 from 800 and provides 10 secs swiftness on activation (even if interrupted).
    Big time hunter, I prefer the damage is distributed to core lines or imbedded into weapons instead of 20% to tethered targets, but I do not have specific ideas.

    5) utilities:

    Spirit weapons are ground targetable.
    Shouts: receive the light and hold the line need to be redesigned. Save yourselves, I much rather have refined. It tries to do too much, but has very long CD. I would probably remove the pulling condis, fury and might. Provide 2 secs of resistance to allies. And reduce base CD to 35 secs.
    Signets, with the exception of mercy (bane is a maybe) none of them is PvP viable. Especially the heal and the elite. This is why no one uses them or perfect inscriptions in PvP. I do not have specific solutions.

    6) FB:

    ToR, I would reduce the heal scaling across the board.
    ToC, chapter 4, reduce the pulses to 3. Chapter 3, reduce duration from 5 secs to 4 secs.
    Stoic Demeanor, on top of what it does, increase damage by 20% against targets effected by slow. Also, impacts enemies with breakbars.
    Weighty terms, instead of the immobilize on the last cast, inflict enemies in the cone range with 1.5 sec slow with 5 sec ICD.
    Mantra of truth, increase damage by 100%. Inflict slow instead of weakness.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:
    @RUNICBLACK.7630 There are a couple of things that could be done.

    1) I would inject mobility into the zeal line. It does not offer much in PvP except more damage when using GS. Possibly change change shattered aegis (which is now obsolete) to provide swiftness when using a symbol. Blinding jeopardy, possibly also add mobility. It is useless in its current state.

    Interesting ideas, they aren't where I thought of going myself but I can definitely see some possiblities. On the Binding Jeapardy I had brought up the idea of having it trigger on any Soft CC which would open up more use but possiblity of increased mobility would honestly be more useful

    2) overall, instead of increasing damage (like restoring RI) I would increase sustainability to be in line with a melee class that has no escape tools. This is primarily for core (but not only).

    VoC, increases toughness by 1,000 for 5 secs.

    I like this alot because it some what addresses the issue of so many more Unblockable attacks being introduced into the game ( I might lower the amount(500) given but bring up the duration(10 seconds) just as a thought)

    WoR, decrease cast time from 1 sec to 0.75 secs.

    Wings of Resolve could definitely use something, I'm not sure that I agree with what alot of people are asking for which is giving it an Evade is a good idea but a small reduction in the cast time isn't overpowering

    Valor line, communal defense and focus mastery change places.

    This could be very useful, but I am curious would you add anything else to Focus Mastery for swap or not?

    Virtues solace, remove the passive proc. Receive 15% less damage while standing in your concentrations.

    This sounds very promising along with making Consecration much more useful to have slotted

    3) weapons:

    mace to do less healing but offer more damage and better capabilities to block damage.

    My personal viewpoint on this would be to bring Faithful Strike(third attack in the AA chain) down from 1 second to .75 seconds, Lower Symbol of Faith from 1 1/4 seconds to 1 second and also bring Protectors Strike down from 3 3/4 seconds down to an even 3 seconds(or even 3 1/4 seconds) this by itself would help the weapon by smoothing out its rotation which as it stands is very clumsy.

    Hammer, AA, third chain cast reduced from 1.25 secs to 0.75 sec (and reduce protection uptime from 1 to 0.75 secs). Hammer 2, CD 5 secs, with and without glacial heart. Glacial heart, increase the proc damage by 25% (it does not critic anyway).

    This sounds potential helpful but I not certain if the Glacial Heart is unable to critical (I just reread the patch notes on it an there a little bit of ambiguity as to if the trait when using a hammer for Glacial Heart is unable to critical but it is clear that when used with other weapons that it can not critical if you're correct then the damage increase would make prefect sense)

    LB, Increase range of LB skills to 1500. LB 5, change the damage scaling to be equally distributed over the cast. Increase the damage of TS by 10%, to match WvW.

    This is another weapon that could really use some reevaluation , I had mentioned the idea of allowing True Shot damage to scale with how long you charge it but at a cost of increasing the cooldown, and there is alot of people that feel that Knockback on Deflecting Shot should be Baseline, along with what I mentioned about lowering the activation time requirement for Hunter's Ward or at least lower the time for Hunter's Mark to effect enemies in the AoE

    Scepter, make projectiles 50% faster and home to their target.

    YES TOTAL AGREEMENT!!!!

    Sword 3, damage doubles (PvE only).

    4) DH:

    Piercing light, traps instead of slow do cripple.

    This is one that seems so obvisous I have often wondered why they don't have it this way already

    ToF, passing through it immobilize the target for 0.75 sec.
    Heavy light, instead of stability provides quickness.

    If they were to finally have the Knockback as Baseline this could give both Stability and Quickness

    Hunter’s determination, remove the current effect. New effect, WoR range is increased to 1,000 from 800 and provides 10 secs swiftness on activation (even if interrupted).

    I like the idea of improving Wings of Resolve it is definitely appealing but I'm not sure that it fits with replacing Hunter's Determination or for that matter if it should be removed

    Big time hunter, I prefer the damage is distributed to core lines or imbedded into weapons instead of 20% to tethered targets, but I do not have specific ideas.

    I don't really know what would be the best idea for this myself

    5) utilities:

    Spirit weapons are ground targetable.

    Again something that should have been implemented quite awhile ago , and I still feel that Eternal Armory should add something unique to each Spirit Weapon beyond the extra burning as it stands, possibly a variation of Glacial Heart for the Hammer, improved healing,Regen and Condition Cleansing on the Bow, and maybe Blinding and Protection on the Shield. Just throwing it out there while these would not totally be a build by themselve they could open up and round out some other builds

    Shouts: receive the light and hold the line need to be redesigned. Save yourselves, I much rather have refined. It tries to do too much, but has very long CD. I would probably remove the pulling condis, fury and might. Provide 2 secs of resistance to allies. And reduce base CD to 35 secs.

    I keep coming back back to the Idea from the original Guild Wars Paragon , Echos instead of Pure of Voice as it stands where the buffs/effects are pulsing off and around the Guardian for a short period of time so the guard is acting like a Symbol so to speak . The exact details I'm having issues working out but I still feel both thematically and for overall usefulness it seems like it could work.

    Signets, with the exception of mercy (bane is a maybe) none of them is PvP viable. Especially the heal and the elite. This is why no one uses them or perfect inscriptions in PvP. I do not have specific solutions.

    I don't have much in the way of ideas on this either and Bane is the only one I see used with any regularity and that only in Raids for CC

    6) FB:

    ToR, I would reduce the heal scaling across the board.

    Not sure about this one myself but I'm more than willing to hear your reasoning

    ToC, chapter 4, reduce the pulses to 3. Chapter 3, reduce duration from 5 secs to 4 secs.
    Stoic Demeanor, on top of what it does, increase damage by 20% against targets effected by slow. Also, impacts enemies with breakbars.
    Weighty terms, instead of the immobilize on the last cast, inflict enemies in the cone range with 1.5 sec slow with 5 sec ICD.
    Mantra of truth, increase damage by 100%. Inflict slow instead of weakness.

    I find your ideas very interesting I have one or two that could add other options, the first one is Virtues GM Battle Presence it would changed to The Light's Presence where it would now still give your allies the Virtue of Resolve's passive but now the Guardian own light fields also trigger as a water field as well as a light field this would allow him to bring more healing along with the condition cleansing ( I would also argue for the removal of the healing on the Zealous Blade and give a buff that is more useful (maybe your idea of Swiftness or Quickness) and the second one is Valor GM Tenacious Defense which has honestly always bugged me for how little you get from it and I originally was thinking of the idea that it would give you a few seconds of Protection after Aegis ends but after looking at your idea where would get 1000 points of Toughness when triggering Virtues of Courage I have to say that would fit better.

    Thank you for responding and I hope to hear any other ideas

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 small follow-ups:

    Focus mastery provides protection as well. I do not think it needs anything extra beside not competing with lesser smite. It is definitely better than 100 toughness.

    FB support is out performing in PvP, hence the nerfs. In my opinion the heal scaling on ToR is the biggest issue, hence the nerf.

    For zealous blade, I think the healing is underrated. Between the 25 heal per hit and healing on combing in light fields you can get between 1k-1.5k in sPvP every 10 secs (easy double that in PvE). It is not so much, and is impacted by CC, but as someone who mainly played over the last few month sPvP using zeal/radiance/valor, between the healing and increased damage, it is an extremely powerful trait, which hopefully does not change, cuz overall zeal line is very poor.

    With the exception of zealous blade, zeal is the worst guardian trait line, and it does not get mentioned much. Everyone is fixated on virtues, when playing core. And I cannot blame them. Core virtues without virtues line are borderline obsolete. VoC using virtues provide aegis, protection, stability, retaliation and breaks CC. Without virtues on 36 sec CD? Without virtues, You get aegis every 45 secs. Did you Notice the slight difference 😶?

    Mobility is missing from guardian (plus HP pool). And since dropping virtues hit your sustainability hard for core and DH, gaining mobility outside of virtues could be a decent exchange. And honestly, the damage of virtues/radiance/valor now is so pathetic, we do need alternatives, if guardian dps builds to serve any objective in PvP. But that is another issue..

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:
    @RUNICBLACK.7630 small follow-ups:

    Focus mastery provides protection as well. I do not think it needs anything extra beside not competing with lesser smite. It is definitely better than 100 toughness.

    I understand your argument I was just checking , as a side note with regard to 100 Toughness this an example of where they are unfortunately using cookie cutter and one size fits all on their application of modification to traits in that 100 points in one Stat versus 100 points in a different Stat does not impact on character game equally

    FB support is out performing in PvP, hence the nerfs. In my opinion the heal scaling on ToR is the biggest issue, hence the nerf.

    Ok but isn't the entire way that the original guardian was designed was as a slow moving bunker with primarily close heavy damage more or less and one of our biggest issues is that as they have progressively dismantled so many of our bunker mechanics (ex.: increase in unblockable attacks rendering Aegis meanless along with in various attacks that cause interrupts those inhibiting the Guardians ability to heal by which we offset our low health) now I'm not arguing the fact that ToR's healing is great but that is a given but by saying it needs to be nerfed and their continued knee jerk reflex to nerf the various Tomes shows their inability to give any consideration to their built in weakness (obviously that they replace the weapon skills but unlike most kit skills they are incredibly focused on what they do to such an extent that in many cases to the exclusion of anything else ex: ToR heals only with no defensive or offensive, ToJ is Offensive with no Healing an barely anything that could be viewed as defensive) and when you are forced to swap out you lose access until the cooldown. I personally would argue that an FB running support in PvP is probably running some variation of a Meditation build with some degree of Monk's Focus and Pure of Heart so the healing from ToR would just be adding to it but not be the cause but hey I could be wrong that's just my opinion

    For zealous blade, I think the healing is underrated. Between the 25 heal per hit and healing on combing in light fields you can get between 1k-1.5k in sPvP every 10 secs (easy double that in PvE). It is not so much, and is impacted by CC, but as someone who mainly played over the last few month sPvP using zeal/radiance/valor, between the healing and increased damage, it is an extremely powerful trait, which hopefully does not change, cuz overall zeal line is very poor.

    Just to be clear I wasn't even considering the removal of the healing component from Zealous Blade unless they were to modify Battle Presence in the way I had mentioned (Light's Presence)and then only because it would be rather redundant. I can't think of any great ideas to improve Zeal other then changing Binding Jeopardy to be applied with any soft CC instead of just on immobilize and blinding along possibly a small increase to duration of vulnerability applied by Symbolic Exposure and I've already mentioned my opinion on Eternal Armory but I also think that the damage bonus from Symbolic Avenger should also apply when the guardian is standing in his own symbols and not only when his enemies are in them ( it would greatly improve its overall impact so you could have the bonus on something other than a stationary end boss ...like maybe a pvp enemy)

    With the exception of zealous blade, zeal is the worst guardian trait line, and it does not get mentioned much. Everyone is fixated on virtues, when playing core. And I cannot blame them. Core virtues without virtues line are borderline obsolete. VoC using virtues provide aegis, protection, stability, retaliation and breaks CC. Without virtues on 36 sec CD? Without virtues, You get aegis every 45 secs. Did you Notice the slight difference 😶?

    This goes without saying but its not unlike how much they have tied to Aegis/Blocking we would be better served if some of this were to be applied for a symbol either us being in it or our enemies for an example, basically to much is part of one trait or tied to one skill or mechanic so when any of those are unavailable or not taken the entirety of the class falls apart but what are reasonable ways of addressing this?

    Mobility is missing from guardian (plus HP pool). And since dropping virtues hit your sustainability hard for core and DH, gaining mobility outside of virtues could be a decent exchange. And honestly, the damage of virtues/radiance/valor now is so pathetic, we do need alternatives, if guardian dps builds to serve any objective in PvP. But that is another issue..

    It all comes back to synergy in and across the trait lines and with different skills. We have classes that have fantastic mixes of synergy and we have classes that have to much in the way synergy to such an extent that they have to much positive feedback

    I really think the class needs a overhaul not a complete rework but serious evaluation of the traits and skills and how fail to interact with each other and where they do successfully interact with each .
    Thank you and I hope to hear more on your ideas and opinions

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    Zeal


    I like adding mobility here. I made a write up a while ago but lost it due to my computer breaking. Just some thoughts.

    Zealous Scepter
    I'd rather see this being moved to Virtues (Adept) and replace the Consecration-trait. It is about Virtues after all. In Zeal, we could get something like reduced duration of movement debilitating effects and more damage when affected by Swiftness (more about this later).

    Binding Jepoardy
    This trait is actually fine when combined with enough Blind sources. But what about adding 'Gain Aegis when triggering Binding Jepoardy' (15s ICD). This would synergize with Wrathful Spirit and Shattered Aegis which I personally don't want to see removed. It not being meta doesn't mean it can't be made viable with some tweaking. Plus, not everything needs to be viable in any game mode. Even if this is a PvP-thread. Same goes for Signets, tbh.

    Symbol traits
    I'd like some aspects of Symbolic Avenger being merged with Symbolic Power. Remove the +10% damage boost of Symbols and the Power-conversion but make Symbols always burn on the first hit and increasing your own damage while standing within them.

    Eternal Armory
    Assuming Spirit Weapons become ground-targeted, remove the Burning and instead make them cast a specific Symbol on cast. From there, tweak the Utility skills. Shield should be a Stunbreak, even if it means a higher cooldown or removing the Weakness. They will still trigger Burning due to the reworked GM Minor.

    Zealous Something - New GM trait
    What about 'Gain 11% increased movement speed per active Virtue. Using a Virtue grants you Swiftness for 5s. Regenerate Health while affected by Swiftness'. Ties in with the new trait in place of Zealous Scepter and is somewhat on theme with Zealous Blade healing a bit. Would also be nice with Shouts and not - yet again - favor Meditations.


    Valor


    Switching Communal Defense with Fokus Mastery caters both, Fokus and Shield. However, this is very unlikely to happen (2 weapon traits on one tier). Instead, I'd love to see Focus Mastery and Stalwart Defender being swapped. Sure, not very appealing for PvP, I guess. But it just makes sense when looking at the traitline overall.


    Honor


    I hate how the healing part of Force of Will competes with Writ of Persistence. I'd prefer it to grant Concentration instead of Outgoing Healing. For healing, just increase the HP scaling on Writ of Persistence.


    Virtues


    I already described some changes in the Zeal part.

    Master of Consecrations
    Merged with Virtuous Solace. I do like Ottos idea about the damage buff and removing the proc.

    Absolute Resolution
    Should be merged into Battle Presence. Replace it with Retaliatory Subconscious so it can synergize with Unscathed Contender. Not sure about the new Adept trait, though. I'm sure there is something generic we could add here. ;)

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2019

    @Xaylin.1860 said:

    Zeal


    I like adding mobility here. I made a write up a while ago but lost it due to my computer breaking. Just some thoughts.

    Zealous Scepter
    I'd rather see this being moved to Virtues (Adept) and replace the Consecration-trait. It is about Virtues after all. In Zeal, we could get something like reduced duration of movement debilitating effects and more damage when affected by Swiftness (more about this later).

    It sounds interesting but kind of would have see a little more detail on what you would like this to do, but it sounds interesting

    Binding Jepoardy
    This trait is actually fine when combined with enough Blind sources. But what about adding 'Gain Aegis when triggering Binding Jepoardy' (15s ICD). This would synergize with Wrathful Spirit and Shattered Aegis which I personally don't want to see removed. It not being meta doesn't mean it can't be made viable with some tweaking. Plus, not everything needs to be viable in any game mode. Even if this is a PvP-thread. Same goes for Signets, tbh.

    I see what your saying but we lost one of our other sources of Blind with the change to Focus(and frankly I feel its much better as it stands) thats why I suggested just change it to where it triggers on Soft CC's so our cripple, slow, chill etc would be more relevant not sure if I'm in agreement on it giving Aegis being as we really have so many ways to get it as it stands, yes it would have synergy with the traits you mentioned but I really think we have access to it enough as it is.

    Symbol traits
    I'd like some aspects of Symbolic Avenger being merged with Symbolic Power. Remove the +10% damage boost of Symbols and the Power-conversion but make Symbols always burn on the first hit and increasing your own damage while standing within them.

    I don't agree with you on getting rid of both the 10% damage buff and the Power from Toughness maybe one of them to offset the change but instead of it always burning on the first hit possibly make so that the chance of burning is increased 100% if they have over 5 stacks of Vulnerability on them so as to bring in some counter play on its effect

    Eternal Armory
    Assuming Spirit Weapons become ground-targeted, remove the Burning and instead make them cast a specific Symbol on cast. From there, tweak the Utility skills. Shield should be a Stunbreak, even if it means a higher cooldown or removing the Weakness. They will still trigger Burning due to the reworked GM Minor.

    When I was getting frustrated with Spirit Weapons in the first place I went to the idea of Symbols myself but I stepped back from for a couple reasons, if they use already existing Symbols there is an issue of Cooldown being to long for any real usefulness , if you go with a "lesser" versions of existing Symbol we have real mixed bag of they interpret it (sometimes lesser is sometimes truely lesser sometimes it isn't with regard to different skills in the game but usually they still hover around the original cooldown time) , or possibly you go with completely new symbols while overall this would be the best option it would also be the most unlikely being as the design work involved would greatly over just using an existing symbol. Giving the Shield a stun break I agree would be great and there is a precedent for with the Warrior's Shout "Shake It Off" (it also cures three conditions off of the Warrior and his allies as well)which they changed to an Ammo system with a 5 second delay between each use and 2 charges so if they were to be even handed there wouldn't be any reason to remove the Weakness just increase the recharge time from 1 second to 5 or maybe 8 seconds .

    Zealous Something - New GM trait
    What about 'Gain 11% increased movement speed per active Virtue. Using a Virtue grants you Swiftness for 5s. Regenerate Health while affected by Swiftness'. Ties in with the new trait in place of Zealous Scepter and is somewhat on theme with Zealous Blade healing a bit. Would also be nice with Shouts and not - yet again - favor Meditations.


    Valor


    Switching Communal Defense with Fokus Mastery caters both, Fokus and Shield. However, this is very unlikely to happen (2 weapon traits on one tier). Instead, I'd love to see Focus Mastery and Stalwart Defender being swapped. Sure, not very appealing for PvP, I guess. But it just makes sense when looking at the traitline overall.

    Interesting take on this over Communal Defense and Focus Mastery swap but I not sure if they would do it because with swapping Stalwart Defender with Focus Mastery I don't think there is any other trait on any of the classes that gives a 240 point bonus to a stat on a Major Adept trait I may be wrong but I can't think of one.


    Honor


    I hate how the healing part of Force of Will competes with Writ of Persistence. I'd prefer it to grant Concentration instead of Outgoing Healing. For healing, just increase the HP scaling on Writ of Persistence.


    Virtues


    I already described some changes in the Zeal part.

    Master of Consecrations
    Merged with Virtuous Solace. I do like Ottos idea about the damage buff and removing the proc.

    Merging them like that would "probably" move the Virtuous Solace trait into a Grand Master trait slot which unless something got move out of this trait would leave a conflict because of the next trait below.

    Absolute Resolution
    Should be merged into Battle Presence. Replace it with Retaliatory Subconscious so it can synergize with Unscathed Contender. Not sure about the new Adept trait, though. I'm sure there is something generic we could add here. ;)

    As I mentioned on the Master of Consecrations there is a conflict unless a trait gets moved down or out of the Virtues line along with vacant slot for Adept as you mentioned assuming the modified Scepter trait worked out.

    There is another post on the forum from Mysticjedi.6053
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/73047/guardian-rework-just-for-fun#latest
    While there is stuff in there that is obvisously overpowered they did bring up an idea of a mechanic of using the symbols in a way similar to Symbolic Avenger , its a mechanic that would allow us to not have so much tied to Aegis and its pretty under used except in a few exceptions. It would also allow for some interesting play and counter play but require more situational awareness (much better than the Dragonhunter traps but the same time show a thematic reasoning for the segue from the Core Guardian to the Dragonhunter traps(yes I know to most people its unimportant but the storyteller and lore buff in me it just makes better sense) ). You could use them in such a way as gain different effects if you enemies are in the symbol versus the guardian being on them and this could dramatically change depending on which trait/trait line the guardian had taken. I am not saying that Symbolic Exposure, Symbolic Power, Writ of Persistance or Symbolic Avenger are worthless but by speading them out and maybe mixing them up more you could truly have a huge amount of versatility to the class with a tool/mechanic that has been there in the game since beta and it would also be without having to create alot of new assets in the game (models , texture, new animations etc)
    Just some ideas I look forward to hearing mor of your ideas

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

    @Xaylin.1860 said:
    I like adding mobility here. I made a write up a while ago but lost it due to my computer breaking. Just some thoughts.

    Zealous Scepter

    It sounds interesting but kind of would have see a little more detail on what you would like this to do, but it sounds interesting

    It's the new GM trait... I quess you overlooked it since you didn't comment. =)

    Binding Jepoardy

    I see what your saying but we lost one of our other sources of Blind with the change to Focus(and frankly I feel its much better as it stands) thats why I suggested just change it to where it triggers on Soft CC's so our cripple, slow, chill etc would be more relevant not sure if I'm in agreement on it giving Aegis being as we really have so many ways to get it as it stands, yes it would have synergy with the traits you mentioned but I really think we have access to it enough as it is.

    I totally agree with you. There are two issues with your suggestion, though.

    • It partly conflicts with Dulled Senses. While ANet introduced traits which do similar things, they avoid them doing the exact same.
    • If it worked with Cripple, Slow and Chill you got soooo many skills and trait to consider that it might end up difficult to balance.

    That is why I'd rather add something else to make it a bit more universally appealing for people who also don't like the other traits on that tier.

    Symbol traits

    I don't agree with you on getting rid of both the 10% damage buff and the Power from Toughness maybe one of them to offset the change but instead of it always burning on the first hit possibly make so that the chance of burning is increased 100% if they have over 5 stacks of Vulnerability on them so as to bring in some counter play on its effect

    I think we are miscommunicating here.
    Symbolic Power (still Minor)
    * Symbols burn foes upon creation (Duration might have to be increased)
    * Gain +10% damage bonus while standing within a Symbol
    * Symbols deal +10% damage
    * Stat conversion
    The 33% burn is way too unpredictable (which btw. also means less counterplay) and the additional Symbol-damage is neglectable.

    Eternal Armory

    When I was getting frustrated with Spirit Weapons in the first place I went to the idea of Symbols myself but I stepped back from for a couple reasons, if they use already existing Symbols there is an issue of Cooldown being to long for any real usefulness , if you go with a "lesser" versions of existing Symbol we have real mixed bag of they interpret it (sometimes lesser is sometimes truely lesser sometimes it isn't with regard to different skills in the game but usually they still hover around the original cooldown time) , or possibly you go with completely new symbols while overall this would be the best option it would also be the most unlikely being as the design work involved would greatly over just using an existing symbol. Giving the Shield a stun break I agree would be great and there is a precedent for with the Warrior's Shout "Shake It Off" (it also cures three conditions off of the Warrior and his allies as well)which they changed to an Ammo system with a 5 second delay between each use and 2 charges so if they were to be even handed there wouldn't be any reason to remove the Weakness just increase the recharge time from 1 second to 5 or maybe 8 seconds .

    I think creating totally new Symbols is unrealistic but we should be fine with the existing ones.

    • If it were the normal ones, we could just increase the re-use timer (as you suggested for the SB).
    • If it were lesser ones, well... we'd have to hope for ANet not totally screw them over.

    SW already are a form of area denial but have to distinguish themselves from Consecrations and Traps. Symbols could fill that gap and make them more interesting.

    • Synergizes with all Zeal Minors
    • Synergizes with Zealous Blade
    • Synergizes with Writ of Persistence (but could also be interesting for Empowering Might...)

    Switching Communal Defense with Fokus Mastery [...]

    Interesting take on this over Communal Defense and Focus Mastery swap but I not sure if they would do it because with swapping Stalwart Defender with Focus Mastery I don't think there is any other trait on any of the classes that gives a 240 point bonus to a stat on a Major Adept trait I may be wrong but I can't think of one.

    You're right about that. But let's be honest... it's probably the worst stat besides HP and doesn't even fit Shield that well. Considering it is more of a supportive weapon, Fokus is actually better for personal defense. If it was for me, I'd add some Aegis related bonus and removed the Thoughness. Yes, this would only affect one of two skills. But I'd take it over Toughness anytime. Not even Warriors have to deal with Toughness on weapon traits.


    Virtues


    Merging them like that would "probably" move the Virtuous Solace trait into a Grand Master trait slot which unless something got move out of this trait would leave a conflict because of the next trait below.

    [...]

    As I mentioned on the Master of Consecrations there is a conflict unless a trait gets moved down or out of the Virtues line along with vacant slot for Adept as you mentioned assuming the modified Scepter trait worked out.

    Not sure where the conflict would lie? Because something is missing? Or conceptually?

    Zealous Scepter - Moved here from Zeal. No change needed, really. Synergizes with Permeating Wrath (smaller number of hits to trigger)
    Unscathed Contender - Unchanged
    New trait - Not sure. What about a version of Natural Mender (Druid) which stacks a buff when applying boons?

    Master of Consecration - Virtuous Solace removed. MoC additionally grants a buff to allies within Consecrations.
    Retaliatory Subconscious - Moved here from Adept. CD can be reduced it if it is too weak.
    Glacial Heart - Unchanged

    Permeating Wrath - Unchanged
    Battle Presence - Absolute Resolution removed. Battle Presence now additionally grants this effect.
    Indomitable Courage - Unchanged

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/73047/guardian-rework-just-for-fun#latest
    While there is stuff in there that is obvisously overpowered they did bring up an idea of a mechanic of using the symbols in a way similar to Symbolic Avenger , its a mechanic that would allow us to not have so much tied to Aegis and its pretty under used except in a few exceptions. It would also allow for some interesting play and counter play but require more situational awareness (much better than the Dragonhunter traps but the same time show a thematic reasoning for the segue from the Core Guardian to the Dragonhunter traps(yes I know to most people its unimportant but the storyteller and lore buff in me it just makes better sense) ). You could use them in such a way as gain different effects if you enemies are in the symbol versus the guardian being on them and this could dramatically change depending on which trait/trait line the guardian had taken. I am not saying that Symbolic Exposure, Symbolic Power, Writ of Persistance or Symbolic Avenger are worthless but by speading them out and maybe mixing them up more you could truly have a huge amount of versatility to the class with a tool/mechanic that has been there in the game since beta and it would also be without having to create alot of new assets in the game (models , texture, new animations etc)
    Just some ideas I look forward to hearing mor of your ideas

    I do like his thoughts on core Guardian and DH (more soft CC) when it comes to lore and Virtues. Not so much on FB (Alacrity, which I disagree on due to balancing, and Poision, which I simply don't feel to be appropriate) or the trait rework, though. His idea for traits deviates way too far from what ANet does. While they do not communicate specific rules they obviously have guiding principles. Some examples:

    • Max. 1 weapon trait per tier.
    • At best 1 'main' utility trait per line (there are outliers like Mesmers... and Inspiration is a huge mess because of it :#)
    • 2-3 themes or gameplay-types per traitline (they started fleshing this out with the huge trait rework and HoT)

    However, he is right about baseline Virtues needing a facelift. Most certainly not Resistance on F1, but better actives for sure.

    Regarding Symbols trait, I'd be careful because you could end up like Mesmers where Phantasms or Interrupts are overemphasized. Having traits in Zeal and Honor feels fine to me. Maybe Valor could do with one (Protetive Reviver from Honor instead of Strengh of the Fallen). DH could get Cripple on Symbols (we had that trait once...). FB is a bit difficult. I wouldn't want Symbols to Daze (Axe trait). But Quickfire could also work on cast for Symbols. It is underperforming anyway.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2019

    @Xaylin.1860 said:

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

    @Xaylin.1860 said:
    I like adding mobility here. I made a write up a while ago but lost it due to my computer breaking. Just some thoughts.

    Zealous Scepter

    It sounds interesting but kind of would have see a little more detail on what you would like this to do, but it sounds interesting

    It's the new GM trait... I quess you overlooked it since you didn't comment. =)

    Actually I was confused with regard to if you modifying Zealous Scepter as well as moving it , my error, on the new GM trait I would love it but I unfortunating I don't see them doing it even though most of the guardian players have been asking for it since the release and when they FINALLY did give a base movement buff they applied in such a way that you have to lose the option for one of two other very good traits to take the movement buff (where as when they gave the same type of movement buff to the mesmer class via the Chrono they tied it to a minor GM trait that didn't hamstring the class) for some reason the concept design people or the people that have the final say will not let go of the view that the guardian shouldn't be fast I can't figure out why but there it is, maybe we'll get lucky and they will finally let go of that limitation on the class.

    Binding Jepoardy

    I see what your saying but we lost one of our other sources of Blind with the change to Focus(and frankly I feel its much better as it stands) thats why I suggested just change it to where it triggers on Soft CC's so our cripple, slow, chill etc would be more relevant not sure if I'm in agreement on it giving Aegis being as we really have so many ways to get it as it stands, yes it would have synergy with the traits you mentioned but I really think we have access to it enough as it is.

    I totally agree with you. There are two issues with your suggestion, though.

    • It partly conflicts with Dulled Senses. While ANet introduced traits which do similar things, they avoid them doing the exact same.
    • If it worked with Cripple, Slow and Chill you got soooo many skills and trait to consider that it might end up difficult to balance.

    Good point but I still think that they should open this up some to be applied with more of our soft CC condition effects than just Blind and Immobilization, the cripple was added to the Spirit Weapon recently and with the rework on focus losing its original blinding effect thats a Third of the sources for the functionality of this trait (just to be clear guardians only get a chill if they take Virtues Master Glacial Heart trait and Slow is only available from the guardians elites not the Core Guardian which of course is another issue with guardian in that we lack a large amount of "cover" conditions so our truely damaging conditions are often easily removed)

    That is why I'd rather add something else to make it a bit more universally appealing for people who also don't like the other traits on that tier.

    Symbol traits

    I don't agree with you on getting rid of both the 10% damage buff and the Power from Toughness maybe one of them to offset the change but instead of it always burning on the first hit possibly make so that the chance of burning is increased 100% if they have over 5 stacks of Vulnerability on them so as to bring in some counter play on its effect

    I think we are miscommunicating here.
    Symbolic Power (still Minor)
    * Symbols burn foes upon creation (Duration might have to be increased)
    * Gain +10% damage bonus while standing within a Symbol
    * Symbols deal +10% damage
    * Stat conversion
    The 33% burn is way too unpredictable (which btw. also means less counterplay) and the additional Symbol-damage is neglectable.

    Ok let me make sure we are both on the same page here because what I'm reading your saying seems to be odd (I found what was confusing me in the original post , you had said you wanted to remove the 10% damage bonus as well as the power from toughness which lead me to think you were talking about the 10% in the Major GM trait where as for the 10% you were talking about was from the Minor GM trait). You have Minor Grand Master trait Symbolic Power which gives the +10% damage increase to the Symbol's damage and 33% chance of causing Burning for one second and you have Major Grand Master trait Symbolic Avenger which gives a 10% damage increase to all your attacks versus a foe standing on your symbols (which is increased multiplicatively for ever one of your symbols that they are on) plus it gives a increase to Power based off of 13% of your toughness. Now you seem to be saying combine the two into a Minor Grand Master while dropping the +10% bonus to the Symbol damage, the Power from Toughness, change the chance of to burn to a one burn on creation with a possible increase of duration and keep the +10 damage increase while standing in them (is this for the guardian standing in them or for when his enemies are?) I would really like this but thats alot to pack into a Minor even if it is a Grand Master this is not to say you can't find example of it on other classes but I don't they haven't often been that generous on changes for us.

    Eternal Armory

    When I was getting frustrated with Spirit Weapons in the first place I went to the idea of Symbols myself but I stepped back from for a couple reasons, if they use already existing Symbols there is an issue of Cooldown being to long for any real usefulness , if you go with a "lesser" versions of existing Symbol we have real mixed bag of they interpret it (sometimes lesser is sometimes truely lesser sometimes it isn't with regard to different skills in the game but usually they still hover around the original cooldown time) , or possibly you go with completely new symbols while overall this would be the best option it would also be the most unlikely being as the design work involved would greatly over just using an existing symbol. Giving the Shield a stun break I agree would be great and there is a precedent for with the Warrior's Shout "Shake It Off" (it also cures three conditions off of the Warrior and his allies as well)which they changed to an Ammo system with a 5 second delay between each use and 2 charges so if they were to be even handed there wouldn't be any reason to remove the Weakness just increase the recharge time from 1 second to 5 or maybe 8 seconds .

    I think creating totally new Symbols is unrealistic but we should be fine with the existing ones.

    • If it were the normal ones, we could just increase the re-use timer (as you suggested for the SB).
    • If it were lesser ones, well... we'd have to hope for ANet not totally screw them over.

    SW already are a form of area denial but have to distinguish themselves from Consecrations and Traps. Symbols could fill that gap and make them more interesting.

    • Synergizes with all Zeal Minors
    • Synergizes with Zealous Blade
    • Synergizes with Writ of Persistence (but could also be interesting for Empowering Might...)

    >
    These are most of the same thoughts I had when I considered the idea of giving the SW symbols but along with the cooldown issue expecting them to spend the manpower and resources for designing new symbols for each of the SW lets just say I wasn't to optimistic but they have surprised me in the past like when we finally got our Staff back with a much better rework on skill 1 and 2 so who knows.

    Switching Communal Defense with Fokus Mastery [...]

    Interesting take on this over Communal Defense and Focus Mastery swap but I not sure if they would do it because with swapping Stalwart Defender with Focus Mastery I don't think there is any other trait on any of the classes that gives a 240 point bonus to a stat on a Major Adept trait I may be wrong but I can't think of one.

    You're right about that. But let's be honest... it's probably the worst stat besides HP and doesn't even fit Shield that well. Considering it is more of a supportive weapon, Fokus is actually better for personal defense. If it was for me, I'd add some Aegis related bonus and removed the Thoughness. Yes, this would only affect one of two skills. But I'd take it over Toughness anytime. Not even Warriors have to deal with Toughness on weapon traits.


    Virtues


    Merging them like that would "probably" move the Virtuous Solace trait into a Grand Master trait slot which unless something got move out of this trait would leave a conflict because of the next trait below.

    [...]

    As I mentioned on the Master of Consecrations there is a conflict unless a trait gets moved down or out of the Virtues line along with vacant slot for Adept as you mentioned assuming the modified Scepter trait worked out.

    Not sure where the conflict would lie? Because something is missing? Or conceptually?

    The conflict could potentially come in on the modified Master of Consecrations in the original post you seemed to imply that you wanted to have MoC take on the abilities that Otto had mentioned for Virtuous Solace where it would give a 15% damage reduction to those standing in the guardians Consecrations along with the abilities it already had as a Major Adept those being the shortened recharge recharge time and the increase in duration the risk is that they have had a habit viewing the amount of increase in the traits utility to warrant an increase in the trait itself so it could get bumped up to Major Grand Master in my view it doesn't but they are notoriously uneven in their evaulation of this but by the same token they could finally see that Battle Presense actually impact doesn't warrant it being at the Major Grand Master (Which it doesn't and just fold it it Absolute Resolution as a Major Master, all I'm saying it is rather hard to judge how they will apply the ranking between Adept , Master , and Grand Master.

    Zealous Scepter - Moved here from Zeal. No change needed, really. Synergizes with Permeating Wrath (smaller number of hits to trigger)
    Unscathed Contender - Unchanged
    New trait - Not sure. What about a version of Natural Mender (Druid) which stacks a buff when applying boons?

    Master of Consecration - Virtuous Solace removed. MoC additionally grants a buff to allies within Consecrations.
    Retaliatory Subconscious - Moved here from Adept. CD can be reduced it if it is too weak.
    Glacial Heart - Unchanged

    Permeating Wrath - Unchanged
    Battle Presence - Absolute Resolution removed. Battle Presence now additionally grants this effect.
    Indomitable Courage - Unchanged

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xaylin.1860 said:

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/73047/guardian-rework-just-for-fun#latest
    While there is stuff in there that is obvisously overpowered they did bring up an idea of a mechanic of using the symbols in a way similar to Symbolic Avenger , its a mechanic that would allow us to not have so much tied to Aegis and its pretty under used except in a few exceptions. It would also allow for some interesting play and counter play but require more situational awareness (much better than the Dragonhunter traps but the same time show a thematic reasoning for the segue from the Core Guardian to the Dragonhunter traps(yes I know to most people its unimportant but the storyteller and lore buff in me it just makes better sense) ). You could use them in such a way as gain different effects if you enemies are in the symbol versus the guardian being on them and this could dramatically change depending on which trait/trait line the guardian had taken. I am not saying that Symbolic Exposure, Symbolic Power, Writ of Persistance or Symbolic Avenger are worthless but by speading them out and maybe mixing them up more you could truly have a huge amount of versatility to the class with a tool/mechanic that has been there in the game since beta and it would also be without having to create alot of new assets in the game (models , texture, new animations etc)
    Just some ideas I look forward to hearing mor of your ideas

    I do like his thoughts on core Guardian and DH (more soft CC) when it comes to lore and Virtues. Not so much on FB (Alacrity, which I disagree on due to balancing, and Poision, which I simply don't feel to be appropriate) or the trait rework, though.

    I really don't know where he got the idea on Alacrity from just Anet giving to the Rev created a huge war of words from the community and can't any rational for the Guardian to gain it or Poison for that matter I'd have an easier time seeing us gain Barrier or Bleeding (we do uses Swords after all) , or heaven forbid Stun (Hammer or Mace not really expecting any of these but you can dream) and if you really wanted to go out on a limb you suggest Torment added to those different chain like /imobilze attacks such as Binding Blades, Chains of Light or Zealots Embrace(again this would be HIGHLY unlikely)
    His idea for traits deviates way too far from what ANet does. While they do not communicate specific rules they obviously have guiding principles. Some examples:

    • Max. 1 weapon trait per tier.
    • At best 1 'main' utility trait per line (there are outliers like Mesmers... and Inspiration is a huge mess because of it :#)
    • 2-3 themes or gameplay-types per traitline (they started fleshing this out with the huge trait rework and HoT)

    However, he is right about baseline Virtues needing a facelift. Most certainly not Resistance on F1, but better actives for sure.

    Hey they did rework Mesmer's colnes and phantasms, and the Scrappers Gyro but I wouldn't hold my breathe.

    Regarding Symbols trait, I'd be careful because you could end up like Mesmers where Phantasms or Interrupts are overemphasized. Having traits in Zeal and Honor feels fine to me. Maybe Valor could do with one (Protetive Reviver from Honor instead of Strengh of the Fallen). DH could get Cripple on Symbols (we had that trait once...). FB is a bit difficult. I wouldn't want Symbols to Daze (Axe trait). But Quickfire could also work on cast for Symbols. It is underperforming anyway.

    Actually I wouldn't suggest anything to outlandish on the symbols just the possiblity that they add one or two more to in the other traits (not all of lines, that would be to much) to elevate their usefulness a possibly bring in more options for counter play etc.

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2019

    Alacrity, symbols on SW. You guys are going way too far.

    We want to work with what we have now and realistic fixes. Not earth shattering changes that will need another year to fix.

    We need Anet to:

    Ensure that dps builds are competitive in PvP and PvE.
    Support multiple viable builds.
    Help DH become PvP viable.
    Help FB power builds in PvE and PvE.
    Most importantly, Anet understand the impact of any changes before implementing them.

  • As outlandish as my thread is which I fully admit as I did it for fun. The real goal was to create an identity for core Guardian which I feel is lacking in the trait arrangements, and I feel most of the people posting agree with that statement.
    Guardian does have more thematic design room then it's current iteration shows.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    Hey there is no problem with starting at something thats over the top as long as we work to reel it in so to speak, and yes I do agree that to much of the roles that the Guardian used to fill from the games original release have taken over by other classes be they Core or Elites and again there is so much potential with the class that is just being wasted but honestly we also have work within the reality of the limitations of business as it stands. They are not in all probability going to do a complete redesign to the class and any expectations that requires to much of a expenditure of resources(alot of new models, texture design or reworked animations) doesn't have great odds of coming to fruition (at least not on a balance patch) so what if often the case it comes down to where are smallest tweaks that can bring about the greatest improvement to the overall quality of game play for the class. I'm sure everybody is fully aware of this but sometimes we lose sight of it in our frustration, I know I do at times.
    Thank you for your ideas and insights

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2019

    @Mysticjedi.6053 said:
    As outlandish as my thread is which I fully admit as I did it for fun. The real goal was to create an identity for core Guardian which I feel is lacking in the trait arrangements, and I feel most of the people posting agree with that statement.
    Guardian does have more thematic design room then it's current iteration shows.

    I think In the end of HoT Anet moved core Guardian to fill dps role, with the significant buffs to radiance. As it currently stands, it probably does the highest damage (or core warrior?). I think the issue that guardian faces is many of its original designs are completely outdated.

    Back in the day, guardian had “many” blocks and epic healing, but countered by being slow and having a small HP pool. As we currently stand (excluding support FB), guardian block capacity among all classes is middle of the pack. If we factor in ability to avoid damage, guardian is the worst just ahead of necro. Healing is on the higher side, but heavily reliant on LoW and dealing damage. Factor in the significant increase in damage and mobility all classes gained, the lack of speed and the low HP pool make zero sense, especially that guardian CC abilities in PvP are mediocre.

    At least befor RI negatated the HP pool problem. Also, the presence of high damage possiblity combos provided some options. Now... there is not much to go on unless you play support or dps/support FB.

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

    @Xaylin.1860 said: [...]

    Actually I was confused with regard to if you modifying Zealous Scepter as well as moving it , my error, on the new GM trait I would love it but I unfortunating I don't see them doing it even though most of the guardian players have been asking for it since the release and when they FINALLY did give a base movement buff they applied in [...]

    We'll... we wanted to add mobility. So we should. Of course, you're right. We don't know if this aligns with ANets vision for Zeal.

    Symbolic Power (still Minor)
    * Symbols burn foes upon creation (Duration might have to be increased)
    * Gain +10% damage bonus while standing within a Symbol
    * Symbols deal +10% damage
    * Stat conversion
    The 33% burn is way too unpredictable (which btw. also means less counterplay) and the additional Symbol-damage is neglectable.

    Ok let me make sure we are both on the same page here [...]

    Waaahh. Such a long text. ;)

    To make it shorter: I want to swap the main-effect of Symbolic Avenger with the increased damage on Symbolic Power and then remove Symbolic Avenger.

    Eternal Armory

    These are most of the same thoughts I had when I considered the idea of giving the SW symbols but along with the cooldown issue expecting them to spend the manpower and resources for designing new symbols for each of the SW lets just say I wasn't to optimistic but they have surprised me in the past like when we finally got our Staff back with a much better rework on skill 1 and 2 so who knows.

    Would it be so much work, though?
    Sword = Sword Symbol or Scepter Symbol (Think: Damage)
    Hammer = Axe Symbol (Think: CC)
    Bow = Staff or Mace or Longbow Symbol (Think: Invigorate allies)
    Shield = Hammer Symbol (Think: Protect allies)

    @otto.5684 said:
    Alacrity, symbols on SW. You guys are going way too far.

    We want to work with what we have now and realistic fixes. Not earth shattering changes that will need another year to fix.

    We need Anet to:

    Ensure that dps builds are competitive in PvP and PvE.
    Support multiple viable builds.
    Help DH become PvP viable.
    Help FB power builds in PvE and PvE.
    Most importantly, Anet understand the impact of any changes before implementing them.

    For not wanting to put in too much work, you want quite a lot. ;)

    The only superficial and easy thing to do is buffing numbers. And this hardly will improve the gameplay overall.

    On a different note: Not every spec needs to be good everywhere at everything. DH in PvP, sure, feels reasonable. FB power builds not such much. That's a very specific expecation and, at least from my point of view, is contradictory to DH being the designated power spec. FB got other things it is good at.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xaylin.1860 said:

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

    @Xaylin.1860 said: [...]

    Actually I was confused with regard to if you modifying Zealous Scepter as well as moving it , my error, on the new GM trait I would love it but I unfortunating I don't see them doing it even though most of the guardian players have been asking for it since the release and when they FINALLY did give a base movement buff they applied in [...]

    We'll... we wanted to add mobility. So we should. Of course, you're right. We don't know if this aligns with ANets vision for Zeal.

    Symbolic Power (still Minor)
    * Symbols burn foes upon creation (Duration might have to be increased)
    * Gain +10% damage bonus while standing within a Symbol
    * Symbols deal +10% damage
    * Stat conversion
    The 33% burn is way too unpredictable (which btw. also means less counterplay) and the additional Symbol-damage is neglectable.

    Ok let me make sure we are both on the same page here [...]

    Waaahh. Such a long text. ;)

    To make it shorter: I want to swap the main-effect of Symbolic Avenger with the increased damage on Symbolic Power and then remove Symbolic Avenger.

    And after all of that you want to keep it at a Minor GM trait after giving it honestly the must powerful part of the Major GM trait from Symbolic Avenger , sorry but it isn't going to happen or to be more accurate their actions to date lead me to say that they wouldn't allow it maybe blending the two and making a Major GM and give us something different for the Minor GM but not the other way around I honestly hope I could be wrong but their track record says otherwise.

    Eternal Armory

    These are most of the same thoughts I had when I considered the idea of giving the SW symbols but along with the cooldown issue expecting them to spend the manpower and resources for designing new symbols for each of the SW lets just say I wasn't to optimistic but they have surprised me in the past like when we finally got our Staff back with a much better rework on skill 1 and 2 so who knows.

    Would it be so much work, though?
    Sword = Sword Symbol or Scepter Symbol (Think: Damage)
    Hammer = Axe Symbol (Think: CC)
    Bow = Staff or Mace or Longbow Symbol (Think: Invigorate allies)
    Shield = Hammer Symbol (Think: Protect allies)

    Yes there are potentially easier ways as far as resources go to implement this but I can't even guess as to the decision making process on this, because to reuse the assets are they just using the visual only and then have recode something else for the effects as in the "lesser versions" of existing symbols or would they built them new entirely. Now to be honest as much as I'm sounding negative on this I personally would really like this from play standard but also thematically I'm just not sure if they would try and do it.

    @otto.5684 said:
    Alacrity, symbols on SW. You guys are going way too far.

    We want to work with what we have now and realistic fixes. Not earth shattering changes that will need another year to fix.

    We need Anet to:

    Ensure that dps builds are competitive in PvP and PvE.
    Support multiple viable builds.
    Help DH become PvP viable.
    Help FB power builds in PvE and PvE.
    Most importantly, Anet understand the impact of any changes before implementing them.

    For not wanting to put in too much work, you want quite a lot. ;)

    The only superficial and easy thing to do is buffing numbers. And this hardly will improve the gameplay overall.

    On a different note: Not every spec needs to be good everywhere at everything. DH in PvP, sure, feels reasonable. FB power builds not such much. That's a very specific expecation and, at least from my point of view, is contradictory to DH being the designated power spec. FB got other things it is good at.

    At present FB is the more dominant build in PvP and while you will see DH it's really mixed as to if it does well in PvP and while most of the Core Guardians have changed to one of the other two or another class entirety there are still a few Core Guardians in PvP and FB is really strongly represented in the WvW Zerg groups with the DH and the some Core Guardians on the Roamers but this has been just my observations (I do play in all of the game modes PvE, PvP , WvW, Fractals even a little bit of raids regularly but amybody else's experience may differ)

    Thank you all for continuing to further this discussion and please anybody else reading this that wants to add their observations please do .

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2019

    @Xaylin.1860 I laughed a bit regarding Anet vision of zeal. I am pretty sure Anet vision does not exceed: “guardian deals damage.” If you think Anet have specific designs and performance measures by trait line (or even overall), I have bad news for you..

  • I can certainly agree Guardian has been pushed toward burst damage, but it often feels like an unfinished identity.

    I would like to see an update/rework of the block skills and establish core Guardian as support.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mysticjedi.6053 said:

    I would like to see an update/rework of the block skills and establish core Guardian as support.

    I don't think its doable. Support core guardian will always compete with FB, and unless its super buffed beyond imagination it wont be able to be better than FB. Even then the buffs to core guard would simply spill over to the Firebrand and FB would come on top again.

    Only way to make core guardian better is to rework core virtues. Core virtues are some of the most outdated skills in the game that can hardly be considered "profession mechanic" by todays standard. They are actually fairly weak skills with way to long of a CD.

    @Mysticjedi.6053 said:
    I can certainly agree Guardian has been pushed toward burst damage, but it often feels like an unfinished identity.

    I can definitely agree with this part. Not just when it comes to burst dps. All roles available to guardian feel unfinished to the point that other professions can pick up the same job with either better output or lower effort. Probably only exception is FB in pre-made PvP/WvW.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mysticjedi.6053 said:
    I can certainly agree Guardian has been pushed toward burst damage, but it often feels like an unfinished identity.

    I would like to see an update/rework of the block skills and establish core Guardian as support.

    I'd rather they establish Core Guardian as a bunker. Which it can do decently, it's just missing a few things.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    I would like to see an update to our Hammer weapon. It was meant to be a control/support weapon with damage, but several of its skills are a bit finicky, awkward, and slow in comparison with the faster paced gameplay since even the launch. It is a weapon with almost too many counters because nearly every skill is a slow telegraph.

    Skill 1: Slow. I would decouple the Symbol from Skill 1.3 and put it on another skill for Hammer (3?), but then speed up the Hammer AA a bit. Maybe AA3 will apply Vulnerability now. Or just make Chill default.

    Skill 3: It shoots in a straightline. Even if the foe dodges away, you will be lucky to make it land. And what does it do? Just an immobilize. Hoorah? Though I am sure that the skill has its circumstantial uses, I would replace the skill entirely. Good possible place for a modified Symbol. Symbol of Protection applies Protection (or Resistance) to allies while applying Weakness to foes. So foes will inflict even less damage due to Protection and Weakness.

    Skill 5: It seems to work only half the time. Some foes seem to walk through it or bypass it like it was non-existant. Still circumstntially useful for bunkering, but maybe add boon functionality so there are other reasons to use it? Perhaps a short bit of Stability to allies inside the ring?

    Overall, I would add some conditions to the Hammer. Make the Hammer apply Cripple, Slow, Weakness, or Vulnerability to the target. Give it something that punishes the enemy and makes them feel weak and slow too. (Opting for Chill if you trait it does not cut it.)

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2019

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    Only way to make core guardian better is to rework core virtues. Core virtues are some of the most outdated skills in the game that can hardly be considered "profession mechanic" by todays standard. They are actually fairly weak skills with way to long of a CD.

    Just curious on your opinion of core virtues being outdated , while they haven't changed the core virtues since the release that much they also haven't changed most of the other classes core profession mechanics either so I'm not sure how you meant that. In my opinion they have failed use the traits to augment and improve the traits like they have on other classes and I would go so far that in some instances some of the traits work counter to effective use of the Virtues. Prime example of poor choice is the portion of the FB GM trait Loremaster where you retain the passive effect of the virtue even on cooldown this should have been available as trait in the Core Guardian from the beginning but it isn't.

    I can definitely agree with this part. Not just when it comes to burst dps. All roles available to guardian feel unfinished to the point that other professions can pick up the same job with either better output or lower effort. Probably only exception is FB in pre-made PvP/WvW.

    This has been an issue since HoT and has yet to be addressed along with the uneven way in which they deal with classes that are viewed by some in the community as being unbalanced or overpowered.

    All of that aside and returning to the original topic at hand of this thread to those who believe somethings on the Guardian class need to be reworked, what are your ideas, some people have put some of their ideas out here but I would hope that we can get more input from the community on this. As to if the idea is great, good, mediocre or even bad I really don't care because sometimes even a bad idea can have a great concept at its core and with further discussion we can come up with something better. While there is no guarantee that any of this will lead Anet to work to improve the class at the very least it will lead to solid discussion point to push for improvement which has lead to changes for other classes eventually.

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2019

    It is hard to establish a benchmark for core classes performance, cuz it highly in consistent across classes. Why is it relevant in guardian more than most classes, is that Anet pushed for it to become the defacto dps build in PvP (and the backbone of PvE dps) in the end of HoT era. Then last 2 patches did a 180.

    Anet, intentionally or not, wiped out most of core Guardian viability without creating any alternatives. DH dps holds in PvE, but its viability in PvP is not existent. Your much better served playing core, even at its current abysmal state.

    In the short term, none FB support builds need 2 out of 3: strong sustainability, strong damage and/or strong mobility. The carrying point before was damage. With it being severely neutered sustainability and/or mobility will need a big buff. Long term, HP pools, blocking/unblockables, boon stacking and boon rip all need an overhaul.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    -snip-

    Sorry for late response.
    By outdated I meant that game simply outgrew how impactful they are. I agree that traits aren't really that good for virtues, but I don't think that fixing traits is gonna fix core guardian since traits also apply to FB and DH so any change to traits would simply spill over.

    There are few things that I would change for core virtues.
    1. Increase their radius to 900. Currently, virtues don't really feel or play like group support skill
    2. Make Virtue of Retribution a default for core virtues (this would also mean removing this trait from the game so i'm not 100% sure on this one)
    3. Increase impact of active core Justice. Make it 10 men in PvE setting and increase the number of stacks to 4 stacks of burning in PvE and 2 stacks in PvP
    4. Increase active healing of Virtue of Resolve. Current healing simply isn't enough to justify 30 sec CD in current powercreep setting
    5. Virtue of Courage should have CD reduced to 35 and personal aegis refresh rate reduced to 30
    6. Active core Virtues should provide passive party buffs for a period of X seconds. For example activating core Justice should increase all damage done by 5% for 7 seconds, Resolve increase all healing received by 10% and Courage reduce all damage taken by 10% for 7 seconds.

    Reason behind this is following. Power core guard will always compete with DH, and support/bunker/healer will always compete with Firebrand. Only way to make core guard viable in the long run while maintaining profession diversity is to make it an offensive modifier profession. Core guard would thus maintain less personal dps compared to DH but would contribute to the overall DPS of the group and bring in extra utility.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2019

    @kasoki.5180 For PvE, VoJ all they really need to do is make it deal the same damage as in sPvP.

    Another issue for me (mainly for PvE) is unscathed contender, it works in very limited situations and only group settings. In addition by design it is contradictory. Aegis is supposed to be used to block damage. So why is supposed not to be removed?! That is its only function..

    You can say the same regarding retaliation. It is just mess. At least you do not lose it when you get attacked.

    It is a compounding of bandaids, and it is not working out at this point.

    Unrelated to that, one of the few good balance design decisions is removing most of the % damage and damage reduction buffs from most classes. This can easily become a runaway effect in group PvE (even in PvP). In addition, we already have the boon system For buffs. I was thinking that after the nerf RI could provide more might (2 stacks instead of 1) to compensate for the stats loss in PvP. That would be much better than a flat % buff.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    Percentage based buffs are better because of stacking. Increase in might regeneration would not change core guard position in neither pvp or pve. 25 might is already easy to get in pve so giving it to guardian would not make it a consequential choice in group composition, especially since ri would only give it to guardian. For pvp it would be a good change

    This game already has a buffing system outside of boons. There is no reason why not include guardian more into it.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kasoki.5180 Anet is moving away from % buffs. I do dispute at all that core needs a buff. But % increase is not the way to go.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2019

    Care to present some reasoning for both of those claims? How is Anet moving away from % buffs? Even on guardian they are all still mandatory traits. And I don't understand why would a group support version of it be a bad thing if we are looking into how to improve position of core guardian

  • Mysticjedi.6053Mysticjedi.6053 Member ✭✭
    edited April 12, 2019

    The problem with the virtues is that their passive is just better than there active (Guardian signet's are the same).
    If they were to get a rework I would want to see a bigger bang or more impactful bang for activation. This could be increased radius, affect 10 people, or a more powerful effect. Either way right now on Core Guardian there really isn't a point in activating virtues.
    This could also be solved with traits that promote virtue usage.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Care to present some reasoning for both of those claims? How is Anet moving away from % buffs? Even on guardian they are all still mandatory traits. And I don't understand why would a group support version of it be a bad thing if we are looking into how to improve position of core guardian

    I meant % group support. Classes are loaded with personal damage multiplyers. The one comes to mind is Druid. One of the skills used to provide a 5% damage bonus which was removed. AOE stats share was all nerfed from 150 to 100. Banners were almost nerfed to half their value. The direction clearly is less group damage modifiers.

    Talking purely from PvE, I think making unscathed contender damage from aegis to retaliation and making VoJ deal same damage in PvE as PvP, that should be enough to put power core builds on par with DH.

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    5) utilities:

    Spirit weapons are ground targetable.

    Yey, it happened. ;)

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Since not much has changed from balance patch, diversity is still a major issue.

    Mace is so much better, but still not enough to either stand on its own or substitute sword in power builds. The cast time of the symbol must be addressed.

    Hammer, still absolutely useless every where and in every context.

    Mostly everything else is the same. No competitive PvP builds outside of FB support (or semi support).

  • @otto.5684 said:
    Since not much has changed from balance patch, diversity is still a major issue.

    Mace is so much better, but still not enough to either stand on its own or substitute sword in power builds. The cast time of the symbol must be addressed.

    Hammer, still absolutely useless every where and in every context.

    Mostly everything else is the same. No competitive PvP builds outside of FB support (or semi support).

    Personally I like the attack speed on hammer, it makes it feel like a heavy weapon. I just wish damage matched. It does have great burst potential, which screams Guardian.

  • Only Even.6193Only Even.6193 Member ✭✭

    Hi ! I've seen a lot of good ideas here, but some of them literally scared me a lil bit.. Since I like to theorycraft and make my own builds, I'm not used to copy from metabattle or snow'.
    My goal for every build is to be as much self-sufficient as possible, dps and survivability wise, I'm currently using the same build for every kind of content with my Guardian, toggling some utilities/weapons here and there depending on what I need.
    Solo I can easily have 25 might, perma fury, and inflict 25 vulnerability, the burning pressure and spread with Permeating Wrath is completly nuts, you cleave hard while only focusing 1 target. In WvW just put a 12s Wall of Reflection in a Zerg and see the enemy burn themselves to hell... 2Xk Hp is a bonus.
    Stats

    And what this build can casually do ALONE, like, really, alone.

    Build : http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAsd7fnkICtChNDB+CB0EhD5hymBtQjWjgsMAyhRLGjA-jBiAQBA4JA8J1fgx+D1UJ41UiII9DR7kA0MlXkCwPdaA-e

    I'm aware that the Guardian overall needs some changes,(that bow is just a joke) but be aware of every possibilities we currently have, because some changes I've seen here can make my build completly overpowered resulting in an obvious nerf...

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Only Even.6193 said:
    Hi ! I've seen a lot of good ideas here, but some of them literally scared me a lil bit.. Since I like to theorycraft and make my own builds, I'm not used to copy from metabattle or snow'.
    My goal for every build is to be as much self-sufficient as possible, dps and survivability wise, I'm currently using the same build for every kind of content with my Guardian, toggling some utilities/weapons here and there depending on what I need.
    Solo I can easily have 25 might, perma fury, and inflict 25 vulnerability, the burning pressure and spread with Permeating Wrath is completly nuts, you cleave hard while only focusing 1 target. In WvW just put a 12s Wall of Reflection in a Zerg and see the enemy burn themselves to hell... 2Xk Hp is a bonus.
    Stats

    And what this build can casually do ALONE, like, really, alone.

    Build : http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAsd7fnkICtChNDB+CB0EhD5hymBtQjWjgsMAyhRLGjA-jBiAQBA4JA8J1fgx+D1UJ41UiII9DR7kA0MlXkCwPdaA-e

    I'm aware that the Guardian overall needs some changes,(that bow is just a joke) but be aware of every possibilities we currently have, because some changes I've seen here can make my build completly overpowered resulting in an obvious nerf...

    This Build is out dpsed by meta DH solo in PvE. Not by a huge factor, but still favors DH.

    In addition, if you play this in pvp, you will die almost instantly to any focus fire and you cannot fight solo against anyone.

    Also, all the changes i recommended, in this thread, were parallel changes to the meta PvE builds. The goal is to increase PvP viability for none FB support builds and open more diversity in weapons and builds.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    I can still push out 22k dps on my DH if I try hard enough on a stationary target in pve (note I have no infusions). I haven't seen many other builds except for meta builds being used for optimal dps in pve anyway so that eliminates any previous viability you might have been talking about.

    As for WvW everyone wants a minstrel firebrand support for zerging so that removes all viability you thought existed on that point; however you can be informals as oyu want if you're not in a guild and just zerg with commanders for fun; it's easier to make WvW builds when you don't have the pressure of someone telling you that you need to run xyz. As for PvP, Arken is still one of the top Firebrands in the season, and he's still a harrier FB. I use a build that's core and uses zeal and I have no trouble killing mesmers, revs, thieves, reapers, warrior (dependent on luck) and rangers, while still having a lot of cleave power in a 1v1 scenario.

    The thing you have to remember about firebrand is that the spec was intentionally designed to be a Hybrid one between support/power/condi/tank; so you have to shift your focus on two to three of those instead of maximizing one over the other. It's all dependent on the rules you place on yourself really.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mysticjedi.6053 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Since not much has changed from balance patch, diversity is still a major issue.

    Mace is so much better, but still not enough to either stand on its own or substitute sword in power builds. The cast time of the symbol must be addressed.

    Hammer, still absolutely useless every where and in every context.

    Mostly everything else is the same. No competitive PvP builds outside of FB support (or semi support).

    Personally I like the attack speed on hammer, it makes it feel like a heavy weapon. I just wish damage matched. It does have great burst potential, which screams Guardian.

    I wished they changed some of the functionality of the hammer skills. The hammer skills play like they were made for GW2 in 2012 while the other guardian weapons (apart from the atrocious longbow) play GW2 like it's 2019.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @Genesis.8572 said:

    @Mysticjedi.6053 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Since not much has changed from balance patch, diversity is still a major issue.

    Mace is so much better, but still not enough to either stand on its own or substitute sword in power builds. The cast time of the symbol must be addressed.

    Hammer, still absolutely useless every where and in every context.

    Mostly everything else is the same. No competitive PvP builds outside of FB support (or semi support).

    Personally I like the attack speed on hammer, it makes it feel like a heavy weapon. I just wish damage matched. It does have great burst potential, which screams Guardian.

    I wished they changed some of the functionality of the hammer skills. The hammer skills play like they were made for GW2 in 2012 while the other guardian weapons (apart from the atrocious longbow) play GW2 like it's 2019.

    Hammer is surely the worst, But it has company. Mace is still dysfunctional. Scepter has significant issues that prevent from being PvP viable or even a reliable “ranged weapon.” And as you mention LB. This also applies to most guardian utilities. Most shouts, concentrations, most traps and most signets.

    @Aridon.8362 I play zeal core guardian. Before RI nerf I think it was an underrated gem. Now.. it is a C build. It works but far from competitive.

    Also, saying 1-2 players take a weaker build to a high rating, like harrier FB, is kind of meaningless. If the build is not sufficiently strong to have enough people play at a high level, then it is not a competitive.

    Yes, guardian has good diversity in the mediocre PvP realm. kitten gets real, only FB support (and slight variants of it) remain.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Burn guard died with the sigil of cleansing buff.
    100% burn duration is a waste of stats vs. players. Nobody tanks a burn tick, they cleanse or die.

    If you wanna go Condi in this meta there's 8 better class choices.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Instead of starting a new thread, I will just re-put this on the top, since ll issues are the same. Only changes since, mace is slightly better with AA improvement and symbol more damage. Spirit Weapons are slightly better. However, overall everything else is the same. Condi PvE got some new line mix ups, which is very good. PvP wise, only FB support and dps variant (sage FB) are PvP viable.

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