Requesting for your PvP dueling expertise to pick the best of each class — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Requesting for your PvP dueling expertise to pick the best of each class

EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited April 14, 2019 in PVP

Hi PvP forum!
I recently did a compilation of some of the recorded fights I did in WvW against all the classes.
Based on your own extensive PvP dueling experience, I would like to ask of your opinion on:

  • Which is the best opponent I faced for each class in the video and
  • What his corresponding PvP tier would be if you were to gauge his skill level

I know some people often say PvP is where the real pros are.
And I can't help but be curious about how PvP mains would rate fights that happen in WvW.

Thanks in advance!

Best Answer

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer

    It is quite hard to say. The problem is, that rotations are a thing that are extremely important in PVP and that there are those round circles whcih change a lot. It is absolutely not just mechanical skill that determines your rating.

    I didn't watch everything, but looking at the eles, I would say average. I saw some good moves, some bad ones (lots of random dodges, even random ToFs!!!11 Few combo finishers too). The staff ele played well with his CCs, the S/D weavers didn't use any LoS at all. Well, actually noone used that in the fights I saw. That would basically never happen in higher ranked PVP, is that some kind of dueling kodex in WvW?

    So while your mechanical skill is great and your build seems to be able to take a punch, it absolutely does not translate into PVP rating. Area, objectives, LoS and severe build restrictions due to amulets are the keywords here.

    Nice vid though, good to see some necro roaming build. :smile:

Answers

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2019

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    It is quite hard to say. The problem is, that rotations are a thing that are extremely important in PVP and that there are those round circles whcih change a lot. It is absolutely not just mechanical skill that determines your rating.

    I didn't watch everything, but looking at the eles, I would say average. I saw some good moves, some bad ones (lots of random dodges, even random ToFs!!!11 Few combo finishers too). The staff ele played well with his CCs, the S/D weavers didn't use any LoS at all. Well, actually noone used that in the fights I saw. That would basically never happen in higher ranked PVP, is that some kind of dueling kodex in WvW?

    So while your mechanical skill is great and your build seems to be able to take a punch, it absolutely does not translate into PVP rating. Area, objectives, LoS and severe build restrictions due to amulets are the keywords here.

    Nice vid though, good to see some necro roaming build. :smile:

    Also speaking as ele main, I looked cursorily through the video and state of shown eles wasn't on high level (i'd say mediocre at best). No opening, lots of useless dodges and no pressure put against reaper while it's not in Shroud. No punishes, skills canceled instead of only cutting their animations, no cleansing in time etc etc. So all in all, I agree with you.

    Speaking of "WvW dueling kodex", the thing is that when youre dueling (for example in Alpine BL duel-zone) you shouldn't use any terrain advantage or near enemies to escape from your opponent (like hiding behind wall, its silly and hillarious). Just mano a mano 1v1. Thats the difference between so called sPvP node-wars where you can use w/e you want to catch/escape your opponent. So I wouldn't say that it does not translate into PvP. It might not translate into sPvP but for sure translates more into dueling than how it takes place in sPvP mode.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2019

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    It is quite hard to say. The problem is, that rotations are a thing that are extremely important in PVP and that there are those round circles whcih change a lot. It is absolutely not just mechanical skill that determines your rating.

    I didn't watch everything, but looking at the eles, I would say average. I saw some good moves, some bad ones (lots of random dodges, even random ToFs!!!11 Few combo finishers too). The staff ele played well with his CCs, the S/D weavers didn't use any LoS at all. Well, actually noone used that in the fights I saw. That would basically never happen in higher ranked PVP, is that some kind of dueling kodex in WvW?

    So while your mechanical skill is great and your build seems to be able to take a punch, it absolutely does not translate into PVP rating. Area, objectives, LoS and severe build restrictions due to amulets are the keywords here.

    Nice vid though, good to see some necro roaming build. :smile:

    Also speaking as ele main, I looked cursorily through the video and state of shown eles wasn't on high level (i'd say mediocre at best). No opening, lots of useless dodges and no pressure put against reaper while it's not in Shroud. No punishes, skills canceled instead of only cutting their animations, no cleansing in time etc etc. So all in all, I agree with you.

    Speaking of "WvW dueling kodex", the thing is that when youre dueling (for example in Alpine BL duel-zone) you shouldn't use any terrain advantage or near enemies to escape from your opponent (like hiding behind wall, its silly and hillarious). Just mano a mano 1v1. Thats the difference between so called sPvP node-wars where you can use w/e you want to catch/escape your opponent. So I wouldn't say that it does not translate into PvP. It might not translate into sPvP but for sure translates more into dueling than how it takes place in sPvP mode.

    True, I should've said "sPvP". :wink: But sPvP is not dueling. Dueling is part of it, but the focus is something different and much more complex.

    Reducing fights to "just use open space and hit each other in the face" is not exactly complex PvP though... but to each their own. All I am saying is it doesn't really translate into PvP-rating.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2019

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    It is quite hard to say. The problem is, that rotations are a thing that are extremely important in PVP and that there are those round circles whcih change a lot. It is absolutely not just mechanical skill that determines your rating.

    I didn't watch everything, but looking at the eles, I would say average. I saw some good moves, some bad ones (lots of random dodges, even random ToFs!!!11 Few combo finishers too). The staff ele played well with his CCs, the S/D weavers didn't use any LoS at all. Well, actually noone used that in the fights I saw. That would basically never happen in higher ranked PVP, is that some kind of dueling kodex in WvW?

    So while your mechanical skill is great and your build seems to be able to take a punch, it absolutely does not translate into PVP rating. Area, objectives, LoS and severe build restrictions due to amulets are the keywords here.

    Nice vid though, good to see some necro roaming build. :smile:

    Thanks guys for the detailed replies!

    While I understand PvP has a lot more to it than just mechanical skills, I just can't help but think that those standing in the higher tiers of PvP should also have the best mechanical skill in addition to all the other requirements to do well 🤔

    Something akin to being good at everything so as to stand at the top.

    Would you say that you would generally find distinct levels of mechanical skills on each tier?
    Meaning legendary tier generally has the best mechanical players.
    Plat 3 generally has the 2nd best group of mechanical players and so on?

    If yes, which tier would you generally find these eles in the vid on?

    Thanks!

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Most of the players I'm seeing in that video are around gold 3ish or lower material.

    Commenting on the Rangers, those guys should be flooring each and every Necro build they come across, easily while playing Druids & Soulbeasts. Gonna rate these guys as Gold 2 at best.

    Nice wvw duel footage though. Lately I've learned it isn't so easy to collect good wvw footage. Kudos to you.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    It is quite hard to say. The problem is, that rotations are a thing that are extremely important in PVP and that there are those round circles whcih change a lot. It is absolutely not just mechanical skill that determines your rating.

    I didn't watch everything, but looking at the eles, I would say average. I saw some good moves, some bad ones (lots of random dodges, even random ToFs!!!11 Few combo finishers too). The staff ele played well with his CCs, the S/D weavers didn't use any LoS at all. Well, actually noone used that in the fights I saw. That would basically never happen in higher ranked PVP, is that some kind of dueling kodex in WvW?

    So while your mechanical skill is great and your build seems to be able to take a punch, it absolutely does not translate into PVP rating. Area, objectives, LoS and severe build restrictions due to amulets are the keywords here.

    Nice vid though, good to see some necro roaming build. :smile:

    Thanks guys for the detailed replies!

    While I understand PvP has a lot more to it than just mechanical skills, I just can't help but think that those standing in the higher tiers of PvP should also have the best mechanical skill in addition to all the other requirements to do well 🤔

    Something akin to being good at everything so as to stand at the top.

    Would you say that you would generally find distinct levels of mechanical skills on each tier?
    Meaning legendary tier generally has the best mechanical players.
    Plat 3 generally has the 2nd best group of mechanical players and so on?

    If yes, which tier would you generally find these eles in the vid on?

    Thanks!

    Well, players at the very top of course have great mechanical skill! No doubt about that. And those eles are not comparable with those (as far as I can say that :wink: ). Staff ele might be different, but he also just moves nicely and uses range. It is really hard to say how cleverly they would move around objects, up ledges and use mobility.

    I, for example, doubt I have great mechanical skill. Maybe not terrible, but not more than solid. I would play no better than the staff ele, I guess (better or different than those 2(?) S/D eles though) with his stuns and range. But I know when and where to move, I know regrouping, I know which enemies I can take and when to disengage. I can read team compositions and know how aggressively I can play against whom. That regularly brings me up into Plat3, though the average is a little below 1700 in the last seasons.

    So: If they translate their skills with good conquest-knowledge, they could play up to Plat1/2. If they don't, they could drop as low as... I dunno. Gold 1ish, maybe?

    Same goes for you. If you translate that skill with good conquest-knowledge (and adjust your playstyle and build), I am sure you culd play in Plat2/3. Maybe even more, maybe less. But if you dont know rotations, you will have a hard time and might end up in Plat1. That happens quite often to people I see - people getting carried by mechanical skill (or builds) playing on high level but with no clue of rotations and just stupid behaviour.

    The other way around goes for me of course. :wink: I often get killed because I hit false buttons, place teleports on the wrong ledges, don't secure kills because my attacks miss. This is double punishing as S/D ele due to low low AoE ranges.^^

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Most of the players I'm seeing in that video are around gold 3ish or lower material.

    Commenting on the Rangers, those guys should be flooring each and every Necro build they come across, easily while playing Druids & Soulbeasts. Gonna rate these guys as Gold 2 at best.

    Nice wvw duel footage though. Lately I've learned it isn't so easy to collect good wvw footage. Kudos to you.

    I agree with the first sentence. I didn't feel like watching the whole thing so I only took a look at the ranger part.

    Honestly, if a ranger drops below 90% health against a necro in WvW they don't really know what they're doing. However, I don't consider 98% of the players in plat "skilled" either. So, it's pretty subjective. Though to be fair, I'm probably not a great person to ask because of how easy (I think) it is to get into plat 3.

    If I had to guess, those rangers seemed around plat 1. My reasoning: The last time I fought gold players in sPvP on an alt account, I won multiple 1v4s (not counting respawns) over the course of a match while playing glass ranger. The guys you fought in the video didn't seem that bad in comparison. (No offense to gold players)

    With that being said, the OP did pretty good against them considering rangers hard-counter his class.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Very average gold guardians followed by thieves playing meme builds. So I skipped to the Revs.

    Both played pretty terrible. The first was playing ventari but couldn't figure out that you had condi damage so he wasted energy on balls instead of cleanses. Second rev did an awful job of sticking to you and randomly blew his sword 4 on nothing. I put both in low gold / high silver.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Most of the players I'm seeing in that video are around gold 3ish or lower material.

    Commenting on the Rangers, those guys should be flooring each and every Necro build they come across, easily while playing Druids & Soulbeasts. Gonna rate these guys as Gold 2 at best.

    Nice wvw duel footage though. Lately I've learned it isn't so easy to collect good wvw footage. Kudos to you.

    I agree with the first sentence. I didn't feel like watching the whole thing so I only took a look at the ranger part.

    Honestly, if a ranger drops below 90% health against a necro in WvW they don't really know what they're doing. However, I don't consider 98% of the players in plat "skilled" either. So, it's pretty subjective. Though to be fair, I'm probably not a great person to ask because of how easy (I think) it is to get into plat 3.

    If I had to guess, those rangers seemed around plat 1. My reasoning: The last time I fought gold players in sPvP on an alt account, I won multiple 1v4s (not counting respawns) over the course of a match while playing glass ranger. The guys you fought in the video didn't seem that bad in comparison. (No offense to gold players)

    With that being said, the OP did pretty good against them considering rangers hard-counter his class.

    Thanks guys for all the estimations!

    It has been very interesting to see how you guys have rated the WvW roamers in the video.
    Actually at least half the fights shown are against the best roamers that WvW has to offer.
    Though I think ultimately your estimations would have been skewed by the single fights shown of them (and losses at that).
    But it was still a fun read nonetheless!

    And I guess you'll be surprised to know that at least one of the ranger and one of the thief in the video have been a consistent top 100 PvP ranker for many PvP seasons hehe (highest I've seen them was in the top 10-20+). Short of Legendary level maybe, but definitely Plat 3 material =)

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    So: If they translate their skills with good conquest-knowledge, they could play up to Plat1/2. If they don't, they could drop as low as... I dunno. Gold 1ish, maybe?
    Same goes for you. If you translate that skill with good conquest-knowledge (and adjust your playstyle and build), I am sure you culd play in Plat2/3. Maybe even more, maybe less. But if you dont know rotations, you will have a hard time and might end up in Plat1. That happens quite often to people I see - people getting carried by mechanical skill (or builds) playing on high level but with no clue of rotations and just stupid behaviour.

    You're so accurate =)
    There was a period of time when comparisons were rife between PvP and WvW over which mode has the better skilled players, and if WvW fighters were just the poor cousins of PvP.
    Being curious myself to see how good PvP fights were, I tried a couple of PvP seasons.
    With almost no knowledge on how to kite around the rings and rotate around the maps, most of what I did was to go far on my Power Reaper and fight whoever was there.
    And the highest I managed during that period was 1599 rating (Plat 1).

    However my experience there left me feeling bored because I found myself spamming rotations over and over in a ring.
    WvW is a lot more varied, open and unpredictable.
    WvW roaming encounters are a lot more thrilling than PvP's static rings XD

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    And I guess you'll be surprised to know that at least one of the ranger and one of the thief in the video have been a consistent top 100 PvP ranker for many PvP seasons hehe (highest I've seen them was in the top 10-20+). Short of Legendary level maybe, but definitely Plat 3 material =)

    I'm not surprised! I recognized Kiritsugo as soon as I saw him. Still, he lost to a necro in a 1v1, no excuses =P

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Most of the players I'm seeing in that video are around gold 3ish or lower material.

    Commenting on the Rangers, those guys should be flooring each and every Necro build they come across, easily while playing Druids & Soulbeasts. Gonna rate these guys as Gold 2 at best.

    Nice wvw duel footage though. Lately I've learned it isn't so easy to collect good wvw footage. Kudos to you.

    I agree with the first sentence. I didn't feel like watching the whole thing so I only took a look at the ranger part.

    Honestly, if a ranger drops below 90% health against a necro in WvW they don't really know what they're doing. However, I don't consider 98% of the players in plat "skilled" either. So, it's pretty subjective. Though to be fair, I'm probably not a great person to ask because of how easy (I think) it is to get into plat 3.

    If I had to guess, those rangers seemed around plat 1. My reasoning: The last time I fought gold players in sPvP on an alt account, I won multiple 1v4s (not counting respawns) over the course of a match while playing glass ranger. The guys you fought in the video didn't seem that bad in comparison. (No offense to gold players)

    With that being said, the OP did pretty good against them considering rangers hard-counter his class.

    I managed to fight a really good Soulbeast recently!
    Definitely top 3 in terms of Soulbeasts I've encountered in WvW.
    Would you say the Soulbeast did well in the fights?
    He is one of the very few Soulbeasts that made me feel I was outplayed at almost every turn XD
    I showed my losses too.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    The Soulbeast isn't good unless it blows your Necromancer build apart in about 3s. Maybe 10s tops if circumstances delay the kill. On rare occasion the Necro may be ultra tanky and dodge your first Sic Em burst, that case the Soulbeast out-mobilizes, waits for recharges, and downs him on 2nd go. The Necro can't possibly catch a Soulbeast that's good.

    I know it's hard to believe, but even a great top tier Necro can do nothing to a top tier Ranger in an open field. The particular match up of Ranger vs. Necro is probably the hardest counter situation in the game tbh. Any Ranger who is tip toe 1v1ing a Necro as a DPS Soulbeast, isn't doing so well. If you don't believe me, we can meet up in a guild hall arena and I can show you what a Soulbeast should be doing to a Necromancer, every time.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    The Soulbeast isn't good unless it blows your Necromancer build apart in about 3s. Maybe 10s tops if circumstances delay the kill. On rare occasion the Necro may be ultra tanky and dodge your first Sic Em burst, that case the Soulbeast out-mobilizes, waits for recharges, and downs him on 2nd go. The Necro can't possibly catch a Soulbeast that's good.

    I know it's hard to believe, but even a great top tier Necro can do nothing to a top tier Ranger in an open field. The particular match up of Ranger vs. Necro is probably the hardest counter situation in the game tbh. Any Ranger who is tip toe 1v1ing a Necro as a DPS Soulbeast, isn't doing so well. If you don't believe me, we can meet up in a guild hall arena and I can show you what a Soulbeast should be doing to a Necromancer, every time.

    The Soulbeast isn't good unless it blows your Necromancer build apart in about 3s.

    Is that good/skillful play or just stupid over tuned dmg mods combined with 1500+ range.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Most of the players I'm seeing in that video are around gold 3ish or lower material.

    Commenting on the Rangers, those guys should be flooring each and every Necro build they come across, easily while playing Druids & Soulbeasts. Gonna rate these guys as Gold 2 at best.

    Nice wvw duel footage though. Lately I've learned it isn't so easy to collect good wvw footage. Kudos to you.

    I agree with the first sentence. I didn't feel like watching the whole thing so I only took a look at the ranger part.

    Honestly, if a ranger drops below 90% health against a necro in WvW they don't really know what they're doing. However, I don't consider 98% of the players in plat "skilled" either. So, it's pretty subjective. Though to be fair, I'm probably not a great person to ask because of how easy (I think) it is to get into plat 3.

    If I had to guess, those rangers seemed around plat 1. My reasoning: The last time I fought gold players in sPvP on an alt account, I won multiple 1v4s (not counting respawns) over the course of a match while playing glass ranger. The guys you fought in the video didn't seem that bad in comparison. (No offense to gold players)

    With that being said, the OP did pretty good against them considering rangers hard-counter his class.

    I managed to fight a really good Soulbeast recently!
    Definitely top 3 in terms of Soulbeasts I've encountered in WvW.
    Would you say the Soulbeast did well in the fights?
    He is one of the very few Soulbeasts that made me feel I was outplayed at almost every turn XD
    I showed my losses too.

    Yeah he did well. From what I watched, he has a pretty decent understanding of how to use his skills properly in order to counter a necro. With that being said, there were definitely things he could've done better. For example, in the first fight:

    • After getting knocked down following the dismount, he used his PBS even though you were still cc'd. He could've saved that to bait out a dodge or stealth right before you got back up in order to reposition. If you break stun he could cancel PBS to bait out a dodge. This dodge would usually be followed up by entering shroud.
      In this case, he could stealth immediately or wait until you use DS2, dodge it, run in straight line which would prompt you to use DS5 for the extra range, dodge that, continue kiting until you exit shroud because you can't reach him, then look for you to do an attack and use LB3 + dodge to stealth during the animation. If he has any superspeed in his build, this would make it even easier.

    • Dodges are extremely important for necromancers. Wasting them randomly on a possible attack from stealth is generally not a good idea against a good player if they know to wait. Right after he stealthed using SS F2 and GS3 at the start, you exited shroud and began casting your heal skill. I would've interrupted that with hilt bash and mauled which would've prompted you to use Spectral Recall to teleport away (the smarter decision) or stunbreak using your Plague Signet. If you SR, I cancel the maul and begin walking away to kite again while waiting for you to do something.

    Eh there's a bunch of stuff but it's a lot to explain and there are a lot of variables to take into account. He did okay but if the ranger knows how to kite properly and react to what you're doing, you'll find it extremely difficult to do any meaningful damage to him unless he makes a mistake or lets you hit him. Necros are basically the same as warriors in terms of how telegraphed they are. It should be extremely easy to kite you because of how reliant you are on entering melee range. Also, we have more movement than you and you have longer cooldowns on your stunbreaks. If he baits out dodges/stunbreaks, you're basically a sitting duck.

    If you're on NA and would like to 1v1 me, let me know. I can give you specific ways to deal with the matchup.

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