One more for the road.8950

But then you have things like the current holo problem where holos made before SOTO works differently than holos made after SOTO and it takes a while for people to identify what is happening. Good luck balancing when that kind of thing happens.

Well. Opinions about about taking feedback and forums aside... There is a difference between breaking and trying to patch up things due to heritage and spaghetti code vs tuning balance and mode in ways less successful. The things they have managed to do good archaeological attempts on are less noticable than the accidental awakening of tomb ghosts and protectors. What was it, walls disappearing due to a skin or icon change on an item?

+ 1 on this from me as well. As someone that enjoys a wide variety of how to play in WvW, playing on multiple accounts, it is what has kept me there over the years. With less valid options I play less. I haven't played at all for a week and barely at all the week before that, and it's not even a conscious choice, I just realized it now. I do like playing with zergs too. But not all the time and not as the only option.

There's even mentions of "new and improved hack", I suspect you are right 😄

Well, have fun doing that?

Sigh. I wasn't going to answer you more last time but decided to anyway after a cup of coffee. I am not going to reconsider this time. It's clearly a whoosh, and it might be that I explained myself poorly because I tried to do it in a simple and understandable manner, but this here has nothing to do with my original point in the post you asked about and I am not going down the road of futile debates with people "that's wrong on the internet" derailing what this thread is actually about.

Alright. I might as well give it a proper go, I guess. Pride/sense of achievement is not something that stops. It is an ongoing thing. I even said it might be the definition of "fun" in a game mode like this. It's your motivation. Your drive. Why you play. If it's skill, points, fights, k/d, comps,. rewards, WxP, AP, getting a GoB, making a legendary, social interaction, whatever. You're talking about tic tac toe. But you can always get better. Let's change it to chess instead. Would you stop the first time you win and call yourself done? Would you find a better opponent to prove yourself against? Would you only try to play against people your own level that you might have a chance to beat? Would you try to learn more about the game and its tactics to get better? Would you give up if someone beat you in just a few moves even if you thought you had a good understanding of the game? Would you think you had no chance to ever get as good as the best? Would feel defeated before you even started the game if you knew the opponent across the table has a much higher ranking than you? Would you feel slighted if the opponent has a much lower ranking than you? Would you feel elated if you managed to pull off moves you have studied without your opponent seeing what you are doing before it's too late? Would you give up on the game if you suddenly realized you did a mistake or would you try to save it? All these questions says something about you as a player, your motivation to play and what you feel pride/sense of achievement over. And it's personal. The board is not, the figures you are using are not, but why you do it is. WvW is somewhat a sandbox, by all means, but why people play it is personal motivation and the rules and environment the game developers are offering in this "sandbox" are there to stimulate players to play the mode and being able to push and pull them in the direction they want. Unlike chess these rules and environment can change, and if you as a developer change or tune it too much in one direction or another you'll lose what motivate them and by that them as players. The "truest" sandbox in WvW is the arenas where you can do GvG without anything affecting your play other than the commanding, your comp, your builds and how people play. I think you have already kind of answered them already in the post from you above. Obviously it's some kind of motivation, and therefore a sense of achievement. Does it have to be big? Sense of achievement doesn't need to be one big thing, an accomplishment. Maybe it's grinding to get another hero, some gear, something to put in your gear, new skills, something to either change your game play, make you progress in the game, make things easier for you... or maybe it's even to just to sell for either in game or real money for something completely different. With no clear direction other than "grinding" it's usually a given that any grinding ends in some kind of result. Same with working out, cleaning your house, going to work, and everything else in your life, it has a purpose. If it's a valid purpose or not is up everyone to decide for themselves, again this pesky thing called motivation, and if something you are using for entertainment purposes is no longer entertaining you, the purpose is lost. So you move on. To another game or something without grinding if that's your question. The things I do in my life I choose from different sense of achievements, and the activity itself might not be what gives me the sense of achievement, but the result said activity gives me does. We do not all have dream jobs or love doing housework but we still work and clean our houses. And before you go "but you HAVE to" then ask yourself... why? And you'll find your motivation.

I am sorry, but there is nothing precise whatsoever in the questions asked in this post. I am fact not even sure I understand what the questions are now that I look at them again. The post you are quoting and replying to here isn't saying anything about what you are asking about defense here. How the recent changes overall affect the mode, player activity, type of content and why people think it's a bad thing have been explained up and down by several (including me) though, and derailing that with things like "how am I denying you a defense by reducing supplies" is just... either ignorant, a language problem or refusing to see things from other people's perspective. That you are saying "I feel that all playstyles are still safely and freely playable with these changes" tells me that you are either missing the understanding of parts of the game mode or how it works in general in its entirety, and probably haven't tried or aren't interested in other aspects of the mode other than a very limited range. Which is fine, by all means, as long as you stop and think about for a bit when enlightened by others or at least try to understand what they are saying if you want to discuss it. After this post from you And not addressing this even if it's not a question I am guessing it's a mix of everything. It does shows me where you come from and what you enjoy as a player. I have seen some other ways that you measure activity in ways that is misrepresenting what is actually going on in the mode. But asking simple, legitimate and clear questions you are not.

I... am not sure you understand how being a supplier of entertainment works.

Let me put the entire paragraph you quoted here, with the sentences both in front and after that you removed, as I think you perhaps aren't understanding what I am trying to say here. I am not sure what your post quoting this paragraph has to do with it. Pride or sense of achievement has nothing to do with balancing around anything. It has to do with motivation to play. If someone is escorting dolyaks, it's not escorting dolyaks that's giving them a sense of achievement, it's tiering up a keep or towers. For defenses, points ticking in or whatever. Of course play styles are player invention, it caters to their motivation to play. Obviously.

In all honesty, you have the answers to these questions in this thread or other recent ones I have seen you in posted by either myself or others, so asking these things makes me question your comprehension or motives to ask. If it's due to Google Translate or other things I don't know, but I am not going to go off track muddying the waters even more.

Why do you want these changes and what are you expecting them to do? I am asking because my immediate thought is that you might have to play the mode for a bit longer and try out other ways to play in it to understand how and why things works as they do.

Or eating the yaks, poison the sentries, minefield the ruins and slaughter dredge, ogres and frogs to extinction.

It's starting to feel like some things that were touched upon right as the changes came are starting to sink a bit into the mud, so adding this for my own piece of mind. A very big part of the problem is the population, coverage and type of players difference on the servers, especially in EU where, as mentioned, the flaws with the system started to become extremely visible after the relink before the changes. With two servers dominating their MUs against almost dead or weak servers to the point people just logged in and out on all three sides due to lack of content. Prime example was WSR being linkless starting in T5 and crawling up the tiers while people just logged out in their MUs. The how and why's have been explained in threads to those that doesn't understand a few times in the recent threads. Nothing mentioned further down has anything to say or helps if server balance is as skewed as it's been lately. A sense of achievement, or pride of achievement, is important to have fun in a game mode like this as it's the main motivation driver. It's kind of the general definition of having fun in the game mode. Every single debate in these last threads boils down to the simple fact that how you gain this vary. This is both where all the different play styles comes into the equation as well as everything about defending, attacking, balancing, metas, counterplay, countermetas, and so on. And it needs to be understood, or at least addressed, that removing ways to gain this pride or sense of achievement makes the game mode moot to those that gets their fun taken away. Trying to deny others their fun or sense/pride of achievement doesn't help the game mode towards your preferred ways, it just makes them.... leave. And removed your own ways of gaining sense/pride of achievement in process. You can't make people like the same things you do. Simple as that. Making rules and strategies that servers "have to/should do" catering to your preferred type of fun and "explain away" what these last changes have done and how to get around it 👏does 👏 not 👏work 👏. And then I am not even touching upon the discrepancies in server population and coverage. Any perceived power over a server is a construct. If you think the communication is kitten, be an example. If there's anything you think should be done on a map, go kittening do it. Don't expect others to, don't blame others for not doing it. If you aren't able to yourself, get better. By getting better I mean in ways that fits your way to play, style, level of skill, ability and effort invested - for some it's to time when to try to take a camp or a tower while things are happening other places, for some it's understanding what the skills do and how the synergies work, for some it's cooking up builds able to 1v3, for some it's how to have a main objective like EBG keep ready for an all out assault, for some it's building a comp that work in the intended or certain way, for some it's becoming a better commander in their preferred content, for some it's figuring out where to place siege so watchtower can't see you, for some it's learning to play other classes or builds, for some it's learning how to follow a good commander better, for some it's how to organize, for some it's how to help commander with callouts in fights, for some it's building up a core guild group, for some it's being able to swap builds on the fly, for some it's how to scout in a way that's helpful, for some it's to learn what's actually helpful to bring to a voice squad, for some it's being able to adjust to new balance or meta changes, for some it's when or how to use tactivators, for some it's just basic understanding of what other players and/or commanders can or cannot do due to game, player or map limitations. It's not a sin to be carried nor a detriment to you, but not understanding that people can't be carried if there's no one to carry is on you. You might not like people doing battles on south camp, but the people doing that is what will carry you in another setting be it defending a keep or have a zerg rampage on a map. You might not care about tiering and sieging up a keep, taking camps or putting in the right tactivators but people doing that is what make them able to scout and stall things until you can go get a fight. Being a commander not understanding how players often doing other content are carrying you in the type of content you offer is kind of shameful if it takes too long to sink in, though. If it doesn't matter what you do because the end result will be the same no matter what, why would you? Why would you repair or try to defend a keep if you aren't even getting kills, participation or ticks for defending? Why would you try to become a better player if it doesn't matter as it's just about hitting any skill that's cooled down? Why would you try to become a better commander if tactics and strategies are moot as long as it's about getting numbers and boons up? Why would you go voice to command to time the squad better and help new people learn if it doesn't really make a difference? If you like it or not, actual living people is the main content in this mode. They're not NPCs, neither on your side nor the enemy sides. Even if you prefer PlayerVsDoor other people is your main content as someone else have to take the objective so you can too. And killing the diversity kills the population, which then kills your content, no matter what you want it to be. And it will affect your rewards, WxP, loot bags, kills, k/d ratio, PPT, PPK, weeklies, dailies, server population, pool of recruits, pugs, roamers, available commanders, whatever floats your boat or is more important to you. You can't build the mode and classes/builds/skills based on a dream scenario with balanced server population, coverage and content because nobody has the same dream scenario and servers and links are currently nowhere near any balance. Be it devs or players with "good ideas". I don't pretend to have any quick fixes or some super insightful knowledge on how to do it, but that much I know. But I do expect people getting paid to do it doing it better than I or any other regular player would.

I am not sure how you haven't experienced that if you have played longer than just for a short while, because that's what WvW has been about up until very recently. Together with everything else. Nothing can carry WvW alone. Edit: But, there's a but. With a good commander you also almost don't have to think when playing like that, it'll become second nature.

We just don't have the "oh kitten it worked", "oh my they just screwed up CHAAAAAAARGE", "oh oho ho no no no kitten kitten kitten" or "how did we even manage that" moments any more.

This only speaks about how you either are so you new you have never experienced, or haven't ever played with, don't understand or don't know how a good commander can work with their squad. The ebbs and flows in a battle is EXACTLY what makes fights interesting, and right now there is no ebbs and flows. Either you got a proper comp with barely no holes in it, or you don't. There's like.... no middle ground. There's no variations. There's no flavor. Looking for the right moments, the right terrain, the right move, the right counter to smack an enemy somewhere it hurts, or have it happen to you so you're learning a lesson, is what makes fights fun. Learning new tactics for next time, figuring out new ones others didn't see coming. Two same size blobs fighting each other with nothing happening no matter skill or level of either commander or players is no fun, neither is bigger blob just training over everyone else be it smaller blobs or randoms, and neither is just taking a bunch of objectives over and over. All structures being reset to T0 doesn't say anything about content. It says something about a certain type of activity. That activity is just taking objectives, in other words you're implying just having three squads taking the objectives clockwise with about five minutes delay between each other and no one defending anything would be the perfect reset evening/night. If even reset night turns into a ktrain from reset, even I am out. Then we're just back to choo choo EotM.

You have builds now where it's just about hitting buttons, doesn't even really matter which ones, as long as you hit them, to keep boons up. No thinking or strategy involved. And there is no proper counter or counter meta. It's not THAT long ago that if you failed in a fight you got a few people to swap builds or classes to use another strategy and it changed the entire battlefield. Now it's just... hit more buttons or get more ppl. Well, it's clearly simplified, but you get my gist. The possibilities are disappearing for every change. It's turning into an either-or mode instead of variations.

Three sides stuck in a corridor on SMC unable to get around each other due to player collision would be quite the sight.

Hope you are looking at some of the other recent threads as well, there's been some interesting points and thoughts spread al over the place. Not that I, or any of us, seems to fully agree on anything, but that's kinda the point, isn't it? WvW players aren't a homogenous mass. Differences between players, play style, ability and time available shouldn't detract from our enjoyment, it's why everyone plays anyway. Definition of joy migh vary.

It's been the meta for quite a while already. People are trying to get out of it with the last balance, with varying success.

*laughs in four supports and one dps per party meta*

This math doesn't work the way you think it is.

I have played in them myself. And against them. I know you can do this just fine with 20-30 as long as you have the right comp, get the boon generation up and go and have ppl that do what they're supposed to do on the right build. And it's not anything new. Clouders, sure, but inside an enemy keep fort farming many times your own number , clouders from your side won't last long due to either skill or lack of booms the same way as enemies and they're usually stuck outside pretty fast unless third server comes to join in. Every now and then a squad might have higher numbers as they start out, but you'll usually find ppl getting peeled off until there's a core of players that's on your wall and the rest are at their spawn, stuck outside or getting sniped on their way in. This is why I am referring to player and server difference because not everyone want to invest to be able to play like that or even want to play like that. And that any changes that makes this even easier for those that can but punish those who can't is inherently bad because it lowers both skill ceiling and available content in the game mode. Knowing the difference between skill floor and skill ceiling versus just plain dumbing down is kinda important.

You do love your percentages but you don't know how to use it. Slow attackers by 20% based on what number where?