NorthernRedStar.3054

How's this mechanic abusable, though? Ranger's power level is directly lower compared to other classes because of their pet mechanic. A ranger w/o pet < any, ANY other class. As others have said before me; rangers without the ability to rez their pet (a single pet in the case of soulbeast) = thief with 40-sec stealth penalty timer, mesmer with no clones -penalty timer, etc.

Ranger's Swoop stealths you after the leap's finished , as well (pretty damn late if you ask me); it's consistent across all mediums to my knowledge.

@Yasai.3549 To be fair, compare Blinding Powder to, say, necromancer's Spectral Ring. Or Roll for Initiative to Lightning Reflexes. A lot of the thief utilities seem / are powerful when combined with something else, but as standalones they're weaker than a lot of the other classes' utilities. A few exceptions stand out, 'course; i.e. Smoke Screen. This is another example of Anet's philosophy in regards to balancing out the initiative system, and why every nerf to the initiative costs is actually stacked.

Examples? As a main DH I have never, EVER had it hit someone mid dodge. Hitting someone outside of LoS also never happens outside of some things that any projectile will pass through. Are you sure that the DH didn't already hit you with F1 and pulled when you dodged? As someone who fights other DH's any time I can, unless outnumbered, I almost never get tagged by F1, the only times I do are when it's precast and then JI to me so it's point blank, and as someone who does this, I have it fail all the time where for some reason it goes on full CD without a tether and other times it does. Very few play this way however, most are trapper builds and stack traps to pull you into, which is one of the most easy to avoid spikes and pains me to see people play this way. Anyway, if you have examples, it will help a great deal so we can see what is going on and if something is broken. The LoS -part is likely to be an "issue" with how the structures are coded. Now, the thing that really bugs me out is the period that marks the missile (/projectile) hitting you. From my collective experience, if you dodge as the throw starts, then you're fine. But if you try dodging / dodge a bit before the initial "spear tip" -part of the projectile reaches you, it still lands and hits you. And this happens after the dodge pre-cast has finished. Since you said "structures" I am assuming WvW? If so, yeah, LoS is so broken, hell, anet removed LoS from ranger LB #5 and it can be fired clear over unbroken walls and hit siege on supply huts inside the structure. While some other classes/skills hold to VERY strict LoS rules, heck, even autos from ranger LB can be like this, why anet has not leveled all skills to follow the same LoS rules I don't know and structures them selves in WvW are fairly glitchy. As for dodging F1, it sounds more like timing, the changes in cast time and "time in flight" depending on how far the DH is from you, if you dodge right as they cast it at max 1,200 range, you are probably still going to get tagged, you need them to be 900 or so units away, like the video below and even then I waited a fraction of a second after he casts to dodge, but notice the "spear tip" as you put it is still far away from me at the time of dodging, and I dodge like this almost always when fighting a DH outside of max range or very close F1 use, as max range I wait a bit more before dodging, even still If I do get tagged it doesn't do much dmg and you still have time to use stab/stun break to stop the pull or let them pull if they didn't lay any traps. When dealing with full trapper builds I actually let them pull me so I can trigger the traps, stun break and dodge out as Maw will only hold you if you don't dodge the "bite", if you dodge this you are free without wasting stab. About the 1:00 mark: Nice example. The visual cue seems very inconsistent at times (compared to the "point of impact"). Now obviously you'll be watching for the throw animation; but when you're i.e. 1v2 and watching for other animations as well, sometimes the actual projectile is what you'll be dodging based on. And oftentimes, in these scenarios, it just barely hitting you can make all the difference. My personal belief is they failed to adjust the skill back when the cast time was increased from ½ seconds to 3/4 seconds.

I am not asking for a nerf, though. I am asking for people to read the damn OP.

Examples? As a main DH I have never, EVER had it hit someone mid dodge. Hitting someone outside of LoS also never happens outside of some things that any projectile will pass through. Are you sure that the DH didn't already hit you with F1 and pulled when you dodged? As someone who fights other DH's any time I can, unless outnumbered, I almost never get tagged by F1, the only times I do are when it's precast and then JI to me so it's point blank, and as someone who does this, I have it fail all the time where for some reason it goes on full CD without a tether and other times it does. Very few play this way however, most are trapper builds and stack traps to pull you into, which is one of the most easy to avoid spikes and pains me to see people play this way. Anyway, if you have examples, it will help a great deal so we can see what is going on and if something is broken. The LoS -part is likely to be an "issue" with how the structures are coded. Now, the thing that really bugs me out is the period that marks the missile (/projectile) hitting you. From my collective experience, if you dodge as the throw starts, then you're fine. But if you try dodging / dodge a bit before the initial "spear tip" -part of the projectile reaches you, it still lands and hits you. And this happens after the dodge pre-cast has finished.

Hold it right there. Base 2 EvadesWithdraw EvadeRoll for Ini EvadeDD Steal Endurance refresh + DD innate 1 Evade and let's be fair and say the endurance from steal is 0.5 evadesShadowsteps with SB5 or Sword 2 to get out of enemy attack range can also be counted as "evade" SB3Endurance Regen from Signet of Agility (1 Evade)Daggerstorm And this is just common loadout from a few meta DD build. (please don't flame for using meta battle, feel free to hit me with other sites sharing popular builds)https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Marauder_S/Phttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Power_S/Dhttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol Yup. yup.Below average number of evades indeed.Who are yu comparing to? A hacker? The vigor enhancement in acro is also fairly busted. No class has anything like it- ranger has increased endurance regen and so does guard, but this is no where close to near perma enhanced vigor + an extra dodge from DrD Wrong. Ranger has Primal Reflexes in Skirmishing, essentially the same trait. The +25% endurance regen in WS is insanely strong on a minor. Enhanced vigor would also be the only reason to take Acrobatics at the moment, since the rest of the tree is essentially worthless post- re-balance. You can evade all you want, but it doesn't disrupt or pressure anyone. And, considering the amount of damage and boon strip you lose by taking Acro, you'll be hitting like a wet noodle. It's funny you're talking about thief's evade skills, which are all insanely telegraphed. It is super easy to time a hit into Dagger Storm or Withdraw unless the thief directly follows up with a dodge roll. Shadowstep or SB5 counted as evade? Sure, if the description of "evade" entails becoming unable to deal any meaningful damage for the next 4-5 seconds, or to waste an important high-CD utility. Swipe doesn't refresh endurance if it misses. SB3 is, again, super telegraphed and has a massive aftercast. SoA only restores half an evade at the moment. See now why a lot of thieves are kinda upset, both about the recent nerfs as well as people begging for more? I don’t really get why you are trying to tell me how to play my class. Every season I haven’t had to help a low rated friend or queue for gold I’ve been plat3-legend playing what I play best. I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day. It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip. I could argue that’s the best for s/d rn unless your into swd 3 into swipe combos etc where DA would do ok dmg. But again if you look at my original post while builds like that are ‘good rn’, I am prevented from playing thief at all rn becuz of how strong rev is- go figure ?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️ Since when is debunking a false claim telling someone "how to play their class"? Silly claim, but alright. What class wouldn't like some extra vigor on top? The only way you get full benefit from Acro is by going core. And going core < dd under any and every circumstance atm. People seem to be heavily overrating the situational modifiers you get from Crit and the flat power bonus you get from Acro compared to the ones in DD, Trickery, SA and Deadly. Right your debunking other people’s claims. What an enjoyable guy. Well I will challenge everything you said. Ranger even with vigor which on many builds is lacking would still have lower overall endurance and recovery.That’s 1 point to me. There is no extra benefit of acro from going core.That is baseless becuz acro doesn’t depend on anything unlike stuff like valkeryie ranger which require a lot of synergy.2 points for me I tested it live for weeks- acro, trickery, daredevil. Your autos and all base skills do higher damage than deadly arts, only way to catch up on deadly arts is combos with swipe and in the end you have less.So another point to me. I highly question the integrity of your post. It is all baseless. So for 1 I’d like to know what high rated thief says you need to play core rn. Also do you think it’s not possible to play acro in a sword build? That was done fine for years and was meta at times. So also I’d like to know what your rating is becuz I doubt this is coming from anyone but you. Haha, this some kinda competition to you? What did you test on - golems in the lobby? I do understand if the bot-infested NA provides apt targets to spam autos on, though. Additionally, it turns out you can't read properly, so by all means compete amidst your own inflated ego. It looks like, to me anyways, you don't understand the fundamental nature of the majority of thief builds. Nice edit btw. I didn’t edit anything. Seems you just have decided to resort to insulting ppl too, so I’m done here Pot to a kettle. Just FYI, you're lucky to be on NA. You'd get destroyed in higher tier EU play. I play on Eu all the time at a high rating. I’m guessing this is probably just your average threat that “me and my friends would really rough you up”? High rating does not equal higher level of play. Lol rating = to skill rating. And you don’t even know me. You raise those incredibly red flags by talking about my region as if you know me and your wrong. I’ve played at competitive levels in games that are tip top shape compared to gw2, not that I’m gonna talk about it.So buzz off annoying stalker dudeAre you alright? Genuine question. You assume a lot, project a lot and state things that aren't even remotely true. I suppose you think you're the only one here who's always in the top few % in every game they invest a bit of time into.

Hold it right there. Base 2 EvadesWithdraw EvadeRoll for Ini EvadeDD Steal Endurance refresh + DD innate 1 Evade and let's be fair and say the endurance from steal is 0.5 evadesShadowsteps with SB5 or Sword 2 to get out of enemy attack range can also be counted as "evade" SB3Endurance Regen from Signet of Agility (1 Evade)Daggerstorm And this is just common loadout from a few meta DD build. (please don't flame for using meta battle, feel free to hit me with other sites sharing popular builds)https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Marauder_S/Phttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Power_S/Dhttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol Yup. yup.Below average number of evades indeed.Who are yu comparing to? A hacker? The vigor enhancement in acro is also fairly busted. No class has anything like it- ranger has increased endurance regen and so does guard, but this is no where close to near perma enhanced vigor + an extra dodge from DrD Wrong. Ranger has Primal Reflexes in Skirmishing, essentially the same trait. The +25% endurance regen in WS is insanely strong on a minor. Enhanced vigor would also be the only reason to take Acrobatics at the moment, since the rest of the tree is essentially worthless post- re-balance. You can evade all you want, but it doesn't disrupt or pressure anyone. And, considering the amount of damage and boon strip you lose by taking Acro, you'll be hitting like a wet noodle. It's funny you're talking about thief's evade skills, which are all insanely telegraphed. It is super easy to time a hit into Dagger Storm or Withdraw unless the thief directly follows up with a dodge roll. Shadowstep or SB5 counted as evade? Sure, if the description of "evade" entails becoming unable to deal any meaningful damage for the next 4-5 seconds, or to waste an important high-CD utility. Swipe doesn't refresh endurance if it misses. SB3 is, again, super telegraphed and has a massive aftercast. SoA only restores half an evade at the moment. See now why a lot of thieves are kinda upset, both about the recent nerfs as well as people begging for more? I don’t really get why you are trying to tell me how to play my class. Every season I haven’t had to help a low rated friend or queue for gold I’ve been plat3-legend playing what I play best. I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day. It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip. I could argue that’s the best for s/d rn unless your into swd 3 into swipe combos etc where DA would do ok dmg. But again if you look at my original post while builds like that are ‘good rn’, I am prevented from playing thief at all rn becuz of how strong rev is- go figure ?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️ Since when is debunking a false claim telling someone "how to play their class"? Silly claim, but alright. What class wouldn't like some extra vigor on top? The only way you get full benefit from Acro is by going core. And going core < dd under any and every circumstance atm. People seem to be heavily overrating the situational modifiers you get from Crit and the flat power bonus you get from Acro compared to the ones in DD, Trickery, SA and Deadly. Right your debunking other people’s claims. What an enjoyable guy. Well I will challenge everything you said. Ranger even with vigor which on many builds is lacking would still have lower overall endurance and recovery.That’s 1 point to me. There is no extra benefit of acro from going core.That is baseless becuz acro doesn’t depend on anything unlike stuff like valkeryie ranger which require a lot of synergy.2 points for me I tested it live for weeks- acro, trickery, daredevil. Your autos and all base skills do higher damage than deadly arts, only way to catch up on deadly arts is combos with swipe and in the end you have less.So another point to me. I highly question the integrity of your post. It is all baseless. So for 1 I’d like to know what high rated thief says you need to play core rn. Also do you think it’s not possible to play acro in a sword build? That was done fine for years and was meta at times. So also I’d like to know what your rating is becuz I doubt this is coming from anyone but you. Haha, this some kinda competition to you? What did you test on - golems in the lobby? I do understand if the bot-infested NA provides apt targets to spam autos on, though. Additionally, it turns out you can't read properly, so by all means compete amidst your own inflated ego. It looks like, to me anyways, you don't understand the fundamental nature of the majority of thief builds. Nice edit btw. I didn’t edit anything. Seems you just have decided to resort to insulting ppl too, so I’m done here Pot to a kettle. Just FYI, you're lucky to be on NA. You'd get destroyed in higher tier EU play. I play on Eu all the time at a high rating. I’m guessing this is probably just your average threat that “me and my friends would really rough you up”?High rating does not equal higher level of play.

Hits through dodges and LoS way too often. There's something wrong with the skill ever since the cast time was increased - the projectile does not match the speed of the cast.

Hold it right there. Base 2 EvadesWithdraw EvadeRoll for Ini EvadeDD Steal Endurance refresh + DD innate 1 Evade and let's be fair and say the endurance from steal is 0.5 evadesShadowsteps with SB5 or Sword 2 to get out of enemy attack range can also be counted as "evade" SB3Endurance Regen from Signet of Agility (1 Evade)Daggerstorm And this is just common loadout from a few meta DD build. (please don't flame for using meta battle, feel free to hit me with other sites sharing popular builds)https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Marauder_S/Phttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Power_S/Dhttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol Yup. yup.Below average number of evades indeed.Who are yu comparing to? A hacker? The vigor enhancement in acro is also fairly busted. No class has anything like it- ranger has increased endurance regen and so does guard, but this is no where close to near perma enhanced vigor + an extra dodge from DrD Wrong. Ranger has Primal Reflexes in Skirmishing, essentially the same trait. The +25% endurance regen in WS is insanely strong on a minor. Enhanced vigor would also be the only reason to take Acrobatics at the moment, since the rest of the tree is essentially worthless post- re-balance. You can evade all you want, but it doesn't disrupt or pressure anyone. And, considering the amount of damage and boon strip you lose by taking Acro, you'll be hitting like a wet noodle. It's funny you're talking about thief's evade skills, which are all insanely telegraphed. It is super easy to time a hit into Dagger Storm or Withdraw unless the thief directly follows up with a dodge roll. Shadowstep or SB5 counted as evade? Sure, if the description of "evade" entails becoming unable to deal any meaningful damage for the next 4-5 seconds, or to waste an important high-CD utility. Swipe doesn't refresh endurance if it misses. SB3 is, again, super telegraphed and has a massive aftercast. SoA only restores half an evade at the moment. See now why a lot of thieves are kinda upset, both about the recent nerfs as well as people begging for more? I don’t really get why you are trying to tell me how to play my class. Every season I haven’t had to help a low rated friend or queue for gold I’ve been plat3-legend playing what I play best. I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day. It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip. I could argue that’s the best for s/d rn unless your into swd 3 into swipe combos etc where DA would do ok dmg. But again if you look at my original post while builds like that are ‘good rn’, I am prevented from playing thief at all rn becuz of how strong rev is- go figure ?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️Since when is debunking a false claim telling someone "how to play their class"? Silly claim, but alright. What class wouldn't like some extra vigor on top? The only way you get full benefit from Acro is by going core. And going core < dd under any and every circumstance atm. People seem to be heavily overrating the situational modifiers you get from Crit and the flat power bonus you get from Acro compared to the ones in DD, Trickery, SA and Deadly.

The issue isn't as much that the combat got slower. It did, and one could even argue it had to get slower. The issue is how they fundamentally flipped the old reward hierarchy around.

Hold it right there. Base 2 EvadesWithdraw EvadeRoll for Ini EvadeDD Steal Endurance refresh + DD innate 1 Evade and let's be fair and say the endurance from steal is 0.5 evadesShadowsteps with SB5 or Sword 2 to get out of enemy attack range can also be counted as "evade" SB3Endurance Regen from Signet of Agility (1 Evade)Daggerstorm And this is just common loadout from a few meta DD build. (please don't flame for using meta battle, feel free to hit me with other sites sharing popular builds)https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Marauder_S/Phttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Power_S/Dhttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol Yup. yup.Below average number of evades indeed.Who are yu comparing to? A hacker? The vigor enhancement in acro is also fairly busted. No class has anything like it- ranger has increased endurance regen and so does guard, but this is no where close to near perma enhanced vigor + an extra dodge from DrD Wrong. Ranger has Primal Reflexes in Skirmishing, essentially the same trait. The +25% endurance regen in WS is insanely strong on a minor. Enhanced vigor would also be the only reason to take Acrobatics at the moment, since the rest of the tree is essentially worthless post- re-balance. You can evade all you want, but it doesn't disrupt or pressure anyone. And, considering the amount of damage and boon strip you lose by taking Acro, you'll be hitting like a wet noodle. It's funny you're talking about thief's evade skills, which are all insanely telegraphed. It is super easy to time a hit into Dagger Storm or Withdraw unless the thief directly follows up with a dodge roll. Shadowstep or SB5 counted as evade? Sure, if the description of "evade" entails becoming unable to deal any meaningful damage for the next 4-5 seconds, or to waste an important high-CD utility. Swipe doesn't refresh endurance if it misses. SB3 is, again, super telegraphed and has a massive aftercast. SoA only restores half an evade at the moment. See now why a lot of thieves are kinda upset, both about the recent nerfs as well as people begging for more?

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff? And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns. Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away. Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol. The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity. Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down. That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably. And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it. It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting. Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability so considerably, why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified. If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull. To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief. When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect." In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map. I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief. Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move. So, how do we go from here? Do I select my subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...? I never said that thief didn't require knowledge or skill to play well. In fact, I implied the opposite. "Brainless, no skill, ect." are terms people often use to label builds they dislike (In fact you did it yourself just now by labeling others as button mashers), but I don't believe those apply to thief (as a whole). The term I used was un-interactive, a problem that exists irrespective of how skillful the class is or isn't. While I cannot deny that some people have used this label incorrectly in the past, subjectivity should not be a factor when determining how interactive a class is. You can gauge it by looking at gameplay patterns, popular build choices, how matchups play out, as well as a variety of other metrics. Generally speaking the more evades, blocks, and blinds you have, the more damage you can mitigate, the smaller the window your opponent will have to interact with you by dealing damage or landing CC. Likewise, stealth prevents opponents from landing targeted damage, utilizing targeted ports (huge when disengaging from a Prev) and allows you to conceal tells for your more powerful abilities (e.g. Prime Light Beam from stealth pre-patch. Binding Shadow from stealth). The more mobility you have the easier it will be to prevent interactions altogether by disengaging fights that do not favor you. Now consider that thief has an abundance of blinds, mobility, stealth, evades (3 baseline as DrD plus utilities and weapon skills). Because it has these tools in its kit, most classes must accept that chasing after a thief, or trying to prevent a thief from doing it's job is a futile effort. The best you can do, shy of playing thief yourself, is try to be more useful elsewhere on the map. In spite of all of this, I still think that thief should be buffed. The reason is that thief's un-interactivity is a double edged sword. Being difficult to interact with is theif's strength, and they are encouraged to play to that strength. However, when a thief does choose to interact with other classes, they are among the weakest at accomplishing that goal, at least according to thief mains. I'm sure you've heard the complaints "Thief cannot 1v1. Thief is useless in teamfights. Thief +1s aren't 2v1's they're 1.5v1's" ect. When I say "Make thief more interactable" it goes both ways. Broaden the window for classes to punish them, give more classes ways of dealing with stealth, but also give thieves more tools to duke it out when they decide to fight rather than avoiding conflict altogether. Tl;dr: This is not a judement against the class. It's an objective assesment of it's stregnths and weaknesses. I can agree with this, albeit I feel hesitant to just flat out say "buff thief". If we were to buff the more telegraphed, hard-hitting skills across the board (including a few thief ones), it'd benefit the overall health of the game in my opinion. I also think blind is one of the most problematic conditions at the moment, and Anet should carefully consider whether and where they want to keep and add it. I.e. Blinding Powder = good. Shadow Show = hard to balance - either it becomes too costly in initiative, or it's a superb / non-interactive part of d/p kill rotation.

Lol is it really brain game if yu simply run very well and disengage really well?That's not brain game, Weaver can do that easily.But even Weavers run out of cooldowns regardless if they rotate their skills properly or not. Thief on the other hand can do this over and over without consequence because they are resource gated, not cooldown gated.And that's why people take issue with the entire Profession as a whole : Initiative system. SB5 was specifically targeted for nerfs because of mobility spam without punishing the Thief enough. The other major abuser of the Ini system is D/P 5 + 2.That allows instant Stealth access for the Thief, anytime, anywhere. And is it really brain game to refresh Stealth repeatedly to avoid retaliation?Do note, Thieves are nowhere nearly as vulnerable to burst as they were before, and so the excuse of "but if they have no Stealth they will die" is not valid. Instant stealth via D/P 5 + 2. Heard it here, first, folks. Might want to argue without absurd statements like this - first off, there's the intent - then you got the chained cast times. A total of ~2 seconds to prepare and interrupt. its 1,25s cast time total. but it also blinds twice so it kind off defends itselfAftercast is a thing, you know. And I was counting the prep time into that 2s. You're also assuming Black Powder has been targeted and is facing the would-be attacker.

If we're completely honest here, every pet should fundamentally be more like Smokescale - visual clarity, consistency (both for the ranger and the opposition) in tracking and skill usage, and a notable pattern than has weaknesses and strengths to it. Doesn't mean revenant doesn't deserve to get looked at, too. 'Nerf X' and 'nerf Y' are not mutually exclusive.

Lol is it really brain game if yu simply run very well and disengage really well?That's not brain game, Weaver can do that easily.But even Weavers run out of cooldowns regardless if they rotate their skills properly or not. Thief on the other hand can do this over and over without consequence because they are resource gated, not cooldown gated.And that's why people take issue with the entire Profession as a whole : Initiative system. SB5 was specifically targeted for nerfs because of mobility spam without punishing the Thief enough. The other major abuser of the Ini system is D/P 5 + 2.That allows instant Stealth access for the Thief, anytime, anywhere. And is it really brain game to refresh Stealth repeatedly to avoid retaliation?Do note, Thieves are nowhere nearly as vulnerable to burst as they were before, and so the excuse of "but if they have no Stealth they will die" is not valid. Instant stealth via D/P 5 + 2. Heard it here, first, folks. Might want to argue without absurd statements like this - first off, there's the intent - then you got the chained cast times. A total of ~2 seconds to prepare and interrupt.

Core support guard is still not a bunker - it is a support, and one of the few viable supports left in spvp now. It can't decap, can't kill anyone, can't 1v3, so yeah, it's a support. Also, you don't run the symbol trait anymore - healing is almost nothing now. Run the shout trait instead. It can stall and sustain for hella long periods of time 1v1 and 1v2 unless you manage to perfectly CC-lock it down. Calling the build "support" is honestly an understatement.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff? And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns. Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away. Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol. The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity. Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down. That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably. And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it. It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting. Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability so considerably, why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified. If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull. To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief. When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect." In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map. I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief. Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move. So, how do we go from here? Do I select my subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

I don't get all these complaints about Lich Form. On majority of the maps, it's honestly so easy to LoS them or pressure them enough to drop it or risk dying. If it lasted more than 10 seconds, sure. Necromancer has a few issues, but current Lich Form is not one of them.

Plenty of druid players defending their toxic playstyle here. B-but SMOKESCALE, the telegraphed Smokescale!

Makes no sense for RotG to need a cast time while giving no chain CC protection during its activation then :/ Revenant needs less weaknesses, not bloated enough as is.

I'd argue that no one wins when the meta's as asinine as we currently have.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong". or refusal of thief mains to try anything other then un-killable builds, I honestly dont remember the last time there was any thief build that could die by anything other then massive missplays The entire class is designed around being slippery. That's just what it is. The thief is not a war. The thief is not a necro. The thief is not an engi. The thief does not have options to be able to function anything like those classes. The thief is a thief and all of his builds will always revolve around being slippery and hard to catch. The thing that you need to be recognizing and giving credit for in this discussion though, is that for thief to have damage "outside of carrion pd builds" he has to go full glass cannon, and aside from what you seem to believe that "they are unkillable", when thieves mess up even once in higher tiered competition, they immediately die. You should try playing a thief for awhile. It'll change your perspective of things. I did play thief for a while, this is why I think its cheesy to begin with. Before I played it I deluded myself into thinking that they did something. Yeah, Im gonna call doubt on that. Ah yes. Trickery is famously a defensive traitline, thanks to its 0 built-in defense tools. Its totally not a utility and damage traitline, despite that being what it does best, and genuinely the only reason you pick it. Daredevil is famously a defensive traitline, thats why you pick it for the damage it does, and not the defense its not great at. And even Shadow Arts is a utility/damage traitline. You can tell these are defensive traitlines by the fact that they replaced damage traitline once those had their damage nerfed. Condi thief is a seperate build alltogether. Its also not very good. And yes, there is nothing stopping thief from going crit strike, besides it having no utility and on average LESS damage than any traitline it could replace. Yeah thats the funny thing. Crit Strikes usually ends up doing less damage. The currently chosen traitlines are the max damage traitlines you can reliably have. Thats why theyre picked. Thieves damage is low because its low, not because theyre picking the highest damage traitlines you mistakenly believe arent. No clue what this is referring to. Oh, that bug. Its less "once in a blue moon" and more "once or twice every match at least". Though there it should just be a bugfix.This. Crit strikes is great if you can unload a bunch of cheese damage on a bad player. Truth is, though, that Trickery and Shadow Arts on average grant you more damage in a fight ON TOP of superior utility and boon strip. Also @Yasai.3549 Nice cherry picking. Bad argumentation trick.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff? And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns. Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away. Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol. The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity. Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down. That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably. And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it. It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting. Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability so considerably, why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified. If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

If you don't care about winning at all, why are you playing PvP. Testing and honing builds is for the sake of them being effective, which in turn means more wins.Playing a competitive (even if unranked) game mode and not trying to win - what are you doing with your life?