Vindicator Feedback #667

[Noktiel.9075]

Hello,

 

Now that the beta weekend has concluded, I figured I'd give my personal feedback here. Most of these thoughts have probably been already voiced but nonetheless I'm going to share them anyways. I'm going to split my feedback into the following sections to allow for easier reading:

 

• - Role and Purpose
• - Greatsword
• - Legendary Alliance
• - Dodge Mechanic
• - Traits

 

Role and Purpose

 

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who was expecting Vindicator to fill in the competitive power dps spec niche in PvE - you know something that can actually compete with Dragonhunter and Holosmiths and Soulbeasts in Fractals or Raids. And right now it's simply not there. Power Ren is benching higher then Power Vindicator and that really shouldn't be the case. Furthermore ArenaNet tried pushing the support aspect again into the spec, and honestly I believe it has no place here - we already have Support Ren, Alac Reng, Support Herald - but I'm going to touch upon this in the Legendary Alliance section a bit more. Anyways I believe Vindicator should be a power DPS spec predominantly, benching around 40k DPS, and it's simply not there. Hopefully yet. 

 

Greatsword

 

Honestly I was hoping for the floaty Balthazar animations when it came to the GS, but alas it's not meant to happen, as sad as it is. But honestly I'm happy with the GS skill set we got regardless of that - it's pretty solid, fund and well rounded. I would make some minor-ish adjustments though. First of all coming back to my initial point of Vindicator being a power DPS spec, we need to buff them numbers. As basic as it is, I say let's take literally every single GS skill and multiple the damage number by 1.4 - this would be a good start at getting us where we need to be. Next let's go skill by skill:

1. GS 1 (auto-attack chain) - honestly beside the already mentioned number adjustment I think this can stay as is
2. GS 2 - Buff the numbers and I'd personally like to see a different character animation here. I'm not expecting to get a full bunch of new animations but 1 new one would be nice, like a slam over the shoulder or something
3. GS 3 - basically great, just please fix the distance bug - it doesn't travel 900 range, not even close. Also considering that GS doesn't have any cc on it, may be add 1-2 sec of slow to this skill?
4. GS 4 - block is neat but may be buff the counter-strike part of the skills and increase the window to use it a little bit?
5. GS 5 - awesome skill, I don't even mind the re-used reaper animation, my main suggestion here would be to remove the damage-reduction component when hitting the same enemy and may be reduce the radius of the attack? So same number of hits but all of them closer together. I think it would help the skill to be more impactful.

 

Legendary Alliance

 

On paper 2 legends in 1 sounds hella fun and great. But the current implementation feels clunky and unrewarding to use instead of awesome. I think the main problem is the purpose of the spec. As a DPS player you don't want the supporty skills of Saint Viktor, they feel like a detriment most of the time, and as if they're just in your way (which they are). Same goes for support players and Archemorus skills, though I guess to a lesser extent. You know when the current implementation would work perfectly though? If both legends were offensive. If both were designed around being DPS tools, you wouldn't mind being stuck on either side - since you would always have some tools at your disposal that you actually want. Maybe if we could pick Vizu instead of Viktor for when we want be a DPS player, and have Vizu skills be offensive too - then the current implementation can work.

 

Another way we could salvage the current situation is the idea most players mention - only have the skills flip when the player uses F2. Yep, this would reduce the flavour of the spec, but at least the gameplay would be better and give the player control of how the want to play the spec. Not as exciting but it solves the problem.

 

My last proposition for salvaging the situation - would be another fairly simple one. Give Vindicator a new buff, similar to lethal strikes of Willbender, called Cooperative Empowerment. Each skills of both Archemorus and Saint Viktor legends would give a 1-2 % increase in strike damage and healing. Each new application increases the stacks and refreshes duration. Max 10 stacks. F2 gives 2 stacks. This way it, the idea plays into the Alliance aspect of the legend thematically, as you're rewarded for using both legends, and gives players a reason gameplay-wise to care about using the skills of the legend, they don't care about currently.

 

So to sum up this section I would like one of the following scenarios to happens:

 

1. Rework Saint Victor skills to be offensive in nature or give the option of picking Vizu for a second set of offensive utilities
2. Lock the flippy skills to only flip upon activating F2
3. Give a buff to the spec that rewards you for cycling through utilities

 

Other than that some buffs to Archemorus skills would be nice. I'd really like to get 1 upkeep skill here that buffs your damage for the familiar Revenant feel. Also I'll agree with literally everyone about the elite skills - Spear of Archemorus should be unblockable and hit like way harder, something like 10x, at least in PvE. Urn of Saint Viktor just feels horrible to use, allowing us to double tap and reducing upkeep would be a start, but in general I wouldn't mind having the whole skill reworked. 

 

Dodge Mechanic

 

Here I'm going to start of with saying that the idea and animation is great, love it to be honest. But the numeric execution is bloody horrible. I guess this section is going to bleed into traits, but I feel its worth separating it. First of all,  I'd prefer getting 2 charges of dodge. Given the other limitation, and how central the dodge mechanic is to the gameplay, having only 1 sucks. This is further reinforced when your single dodge costs as much as 3 normal dodges, has to be used offensively to keep up the only damage modifier on the spec at the moment (hence you essentially have zero dodges), takes you out of combat for like 2-3 sec AND doesn't even do much damage.

 

So my suggestion would be to have 2 charges and all of dodge variations should have the animation speed of Saint's Shield (or at the very least Imperial Impact should have the same animation speed as Saint's Shield, and Death Drop should have the current animation speed of Imperial Impact). Endurance requirements should be severely reduced for Death Drop and probably Imperial Impact too - right now they feel horrible. Endurance requirements on Saint's Shield feel decent though. Lastly the rewards for using the dodges - Saint's Shield is alright again. If my other ideas were to be implemented (so 2 charges, faster animation, less endurance) may be we can keep the current numbers for damage. But if not, then there should definitely be more of a reward for using them, especially Death Drop.

 

What makes this even more ridiculous is with Death Drop you're taken out of combat for 2-3 seconds, can do nothing in the meantime, the evade frame doesn't last the whole time, and when you land you do a whopping 20k damage on a crit. Whereas over on warrior, for the Dragon Slash, you have to remain stationary for 5 secs (so not that much longer), can teleport and put up aegis in the process, and and the end you do 500k damage. The difference is too huge, especially given that the drawbacks are fairly similar. 

 

Traits

 

So for this section I've already covered the dodges (and hence the GM traits) in the last section, so that's done. Other traits aren't particularly fantastic in my honest opinion though. Master traits are ok I suppose, especially given how important endurance is on the spec. But all 3 could probably use a buff to be honest. Reaver's curse in particular seems to be way better, so at least buff the Angsiyan's Trust and Song of Arboreurn. Adept trait's feel pretty meh. I say rework Leviathan's Strength to give a second damage modifier to spec and reduce GS skills CD. I'd probably increase the potency of Amnesty of the Shing Jea too. In general I feel the traits are missing a damage modifier trait (other than the dodge one) to get Vindicator to a competitive level and GS skill cd reduction trait too - may be these 2 can be combined. Minor traits are fairly decent though

 

Conclusion

 

Overall I like the spec it feels fun, but it does still need a fair amount of adjustments to get it to a competitive level. The dodge mechanic most importantly needs numeric tweaking to allow the spec to not feel cumbersome. Lastly we really need to allow the spec to have an identity, either through player choice, or just locking it in in general - and I believe that identity need to be a competitive Power DPS spec, a niche that's hasn't been filled since 2015 in PvE.  Once that's done, and the numbers are adjusted, the spec can really shine and feel awesome. Again these are just my 2 cents on the topic, I'm no pro player, but I have been a revenant main since HoT released and I do hope my opinion is at least heard by the devs. 

Thanks you for reading and looking forward to Beta Weekend 4 to see how things get changed. 

P.S. Thanks for giving Revenant a Greatsword, been praying for that for years now, and it's great to finally get it. 

[Loules.8601]

1 hour ago, Kastiel.1947 said:

P.S. Thanks for giving Revenant a Greatsword, been praying for that for years now, and it's great to finally get it. 

Yep, but current GS - not Revenant, but almost complete copy-paste of Warrior + Ranger skills, not only animations…

[nosleepdemon.1368]

5 hours ago, Kastiel.1947 said:

Anyways I believe Vindicator should be a power DPS spec predominantly

And you're going to be disappointed. Ignoring the bad implementation of the spec, what on Earth makes you think that there was ever a plan to do this? Clearly this is meant to be some sort of hybrid - a badly designed one sure, but your assumptions are way off.

[Yumesaki.7082]

Vindicator feedback
 

Greatsword

- Mist Unleashed gs skill 2 feels slow compared to the rest of the gs skills, the ground effect doesn't line up with the skills actual range, it should probably be the same range as the ground effect(360 cone?).

- Phantom's Onslaught gs skill 3 feels good, would be nice if the damage at the end of the movement could trigger without a target maybe?

- Imperial Guard gs skill 4 feels super impactful as a 2-3 second block

- Eternity's Requiem gs skill 5 feels great to use, it deletes single targets though if they get hit by 3-4 of the aoes (can we get those aoe circles for meteor shower? or that might create too much visual noise.)

 

Class Mechanic

- Energy Meld F2 25 energy for 50 endurance feels bad, this skill should have an additional effect.

 

Alliance Stance

- Selfish / Selfless Spirit heal skills feels good

- Reaver's Rage / Awakening stun breaks feels good

- Nomad's Advance feels good

- Battle Dance the roll back feels too slow, it would feel better if it was instant and granted the boons at the end in a cone. I use this skill because I want to evade an attack not because I want to give my allies boons.

- Scavenger Burst it feels like this skill should be pulse 2-3 times

- Tree Song it feels like this skill should pulse 2-3 times as well

- Spear of Archemorus it feels like this skill should have imob or cripple or chill on it considering the long windup / single target nature of it.

- Urn of Saint Viktor dodging cancels the effect, but you can activate it mid dodge. it feels like there is too much danger associated with activating this skill for too little payout. You take damage, and use a lot of energy, dodging cancels it. you cannot receive any healing. it might be ok if you applied poison to yourself instead of not being able to heal and taking damage.

 

Minor Traits

- Balance in Discord would feel better if it activated on f2 use period, no need to be in alliance stance and use f2 (spending 25 energy to get a heal and regen seems fair.)

- Empire Divided seems ok, could be 10% damage while above 50% hp and 10% outgoing healing and / or 10% incoming healing while below 50% hp

 

Adept Traits

- adept traits seem ok

 

Master Traits

- Song of Arboreum since all traits based on dodging, you take this one because it is the best out of all of them.

 

Grandmaster Traits

- Forerunner of Death Stops you doing damage for the longest time out of the 3 dodges, this is not something you want as a damage dealer.
- Vassals of the Empire you have to select this trait to see the boons, boon duration extension and extra strike damage it deals.
- Saint of zu Heltzer outgoing healing modifier is super short and hard to maintain.

 

Dodging Mechanics
- Tenacious Ruin There are a number of issues with the dodging mechanics.
- The end of the dodge roots you in place for a bit.
- Being immobilized when you dodge because you can't move or reposition yourself.
- Being blinded when you dodge because the damage portion of the dodge, won't connect.
- Lines and Babygates can CC you while in the dodge.
- Traversing terrain is harder because you don't know what you can and can't traverse 
- You can't jump while in the dodge.
- You can go up certain terrain you can't jump up in the dodge.
- Using the dodge offensively is too punishing because if you make a mistake you become an easy target.
- Using the dodge to position yourself feels great and is highly rewarding, It is a nice break in the hectic flow of combat.
- The more endurance you spend the longer you evade for.
- The more endurance you spend the farther you can travel in the dodge.

[Jthug.9506]

5 hours ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

And you're going to be disappointed. Ignoring the bad implementation of the spec, what on Earth makes you think that there was ever a plan to do this? Clearly this is meant to be some sort of hybrid - a badly designed one sure, but your assumptions are way off.

I seriously hope you are dead wrong. I’m going to be a extremely peeved if this isn’t benching up there with top tier power specs in pve. 

[nosleepdemon.1368]

49 minutes ago, Jthug.9506 said:

I seriously hope you are dead wrong. I’m going to be a extremely peeved if this isn’t benching up there with top tier power specs in pve. 

 

Revenant already has its single target power spec in Herald (not saying anything about what tier it's in, mind). Clearly Vindicrap is supposed to fill a hybrid damage / support role so there's no reason to expect it to top other dedicated professions in either. This kind of sort of makes sense if the meta shifted to favour hybrid roles, but we already have a functional hybrid support role in celestial alacrity renegade IMO and Alliance as it stands, is bad at everything it does in every game mode and its F2 does nothing for other Legends.

[Jthug.9506]

1 minute ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

 

Revenant already has its single target power spec in Herald (not saying anything about what tier it's in, mind). Clearly Vindicrap is supposed to fill a hybrid damage / support role so there's no reason to expect it to top other dedicated professions in either. This kind of sort of makes sense if the meta shifted to favour hybrid roles, but we already have a functional hybrid support role in celestial alacrity renegade IMO and Alliance as it stands, is bad at everything it does in every game mode and its F2 does nothing for other Legends.

Yeah herald ain’t it. Neither is ren (although it’s better than herald mind you). All anet has to do is split that damage buff on dodge across game modes and kick it up to 35-45% in pve and boom you have a competent pve power spec.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Jthug.9506 said:

I seriously hope you are dead wrong. I’m going to be a extremely peeved if this isn’t benching up there with top tier power specs in pve. 

Why would you be peeved that THIS spec isn't the one that benches top tier power PVE? How did you even reasonably believe it has to be?

[nosleepdemon.1368]

1 hour ago, Jthug.9506 said:

Yeah herald ain’t it. Neither is ren (although it’s better than herald mind you). All anet has to do is split that damage buff on dodge across game modes and kick it up to 35-45% in pve and boom you have a competent pve power spec.

 

Yeah but it is though isn't it? It's not what you like, but it is what it is. I'm not talking about whether a particular role is filled well, only that it is. Herald power swords presents as Revenant's "top tier" power damage spec, so it'd be strange to see Vindifail take that spot *especially* since hybrid play is built into the identity of the Alliance Legend. 

[Jthug.9506]

Renegade benches higher than herald at power dps these days, but neither is a top tier power dps, hence my hope that vindicator would be that for revenant.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Jthug.9506]

Not sure what’s so difficult or controversial…