Fixing Arms in 3 Simple Steps

[Broxxgar.6801]

Core Condi Dual Sword /Bow and Condi Zerker Sword Torch / Bow is almost the same.

From arms trait line you gonna receive condi bonus, but I feel they could improve it.

The arms traitline for power is to weak and they really need rethink the 'Furious' trait.

[Logos.3042]

Arms is Condi that relies on Critical Hits

• Signet trait should go back to precision instead of ferocity, unless they plan on adding more power minor and major traits to support Arms as a Power tree.... which would mean a total rework.
• Unsuspecting Blow should be changed to apply 1 stack of confusion for every 10 stacks of bleeding, or something similar.
• Dual Wield needs to affect all weapons and OH.  Maybe it could work still if it made Quickness 10% more effective, sort of like how Engineers get Protection that operates at 40% dmg reduction instead of 33%
• Burning Arrows on Longbow auto attack need to be baseline and not in Discipline.

I think that is all I would do to start to see how things play out.

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Logos.3042

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Logos.3042 said:

Arms is Condi that relies on Critical Hits

• Signet trait should go back to precision instead of ferocity, unless they plan on adding more power minor and major traits to support Arms as a Power tree.... which would mean a total rework.

Precision makes more sense for the tree. Warrior needs more precision anyway. I would work it as:

Gain Fury when you use a signet (10s), Fury you gain grants increased critical hit chance (40% total). Cast Lesser Signet of Might when you strike a foe below 50% HP (20s CD). Making it a boon based thing provides counterplay, but you'd also not have to spam 5 signets to get the full effect, so there would be less degenerate gameplay.

4 minutes ago, Logos.3042 said:

• Unsuspecting Blow should be changed to apply 1 stack of confusion for every 10 stacks of bleeding, or something similar.

My idea previously was to apply confusion to foes you strike while CC'd, no cd, 3-4s duration.

4 minutes ago, Logos.3042 said:

• Dual Wield needs to affect all weapons and OH.  Maybe it could work still if it made Quickness 10% more effective, sort of like how Engineers get Protection that operates at 40% dmg reduction instead of 33%

This one is a blank slate. ANYTHING would be better. 

4 minutes ago, Logos.3042 said:

• Burning Arrows on Longbow auto attack need to be baseline and not in Discipline.

I think that is all I would do to start to see how things play out.

 

All of the AA effects on crackshot should be baseline. Crackshot should grant CD reduction, and then the following:

Rifle: Deal increased damage against vulnerable foes (0.5% per stack)

Longbow: Longbow attacks deal an additional stack of burn (5s/2s) (PvE/Comp)

Harpoon Gun: Harpoon attacks deal an additional stack of bleed (10s/6s) (PvE/Comp).

Reminder I suggested also that the current AA effects be made baseline on top of these suggested changes.

[Logos.3042]

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

My idea previously was to apply confusion to foes you strike while CC'd, no cd, 3-4s duration.

I just dont see near as much CC being brought in condi berserker, so not sure how useful this would be if it is still based on CC?  maybe if it did it off of soft CC also?

4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

All of the AA effects on crackshot should be baseline. Crackshot should grant CD reduction, and then the following:

Rifle: Deal increased damage against vulnerable foes (0.5% per stack)

Longbow: Longbow attacks deal an additional stack of burn (5s/2s) (PvE/Comp)

Harpoon Gun: Harpoon attacks deal an additional stack of bleed (10s/6s) (PvE/Comp).

Reminder I suggested also that the current AA effects be made baseline on top of these suggested changes.

My only issue with this is that Crackshot is not in a good tree, so any condi build will still need to take it if baseline.  I say, if they are going to stick with traits, they need to split out condi weapons and put them in Arms, IE, add longbow to the sword trait.  The problem with that is they become highly mandatory.  

I think it'd just be better to leave the autoattacks alone and default, and make them be pumped up by Arms, Berserker, and Condi gear to make them good.  

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 minutes ago, Logos.3042 said:

I just dont see near as much CC being brought in condi berserker, so not sure how useful this would be if it is still based on CC?  maybe if it did it off of soft CC also?
 

Condi Zerker in PvE would rely on it's team for that, and in Competitive you would use Headbutt/shield bash for that.

17 minutes ago, Logos.3042 said:

My only issue with this is that Crackshot is not in a good tree, so any condi build will still need to take it if baseline.  I say, if they are going to stick with traits, they need to split out condi weapons and put them in Arms, IE, add longbow to the sword trait.  The problem with that is they become highly mandatory.  

Crackshot should be moved back into Arms.

17 minutes ago, Logos.3042 said:

I think it'd just be better to leave the autoattacks alone and default, and make them be pumped up by Arms, Berserker, and Condi gear to make them good.  

Meh, the trait should augment the whole weapons not just the AA shots.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I was bored and wanted to take another crack at this.  Hope you enjoy!

 

Central thesis:  Arms should aim to do 3 things:

1.)  Offer traits/effects that greatly increase critical chance, with the ultimate aim of being able to run Valkyrie (or Cavalier or Soldier or another precision-less gear type) effectively.

 

2.) Offer traits/effects that empower condi builds

 

3.) Be constructed in such a way that the player gets to choose which one of 1.) or 2.) he wants rather than get stuck with traits that don't help his build.  To clarify, the current Deep Strikes and Bloodlust minor traits are both condi-oriented, and therefore not helpful if you're trying to make a power build.  Ergo, the current design is poor and could be improved.

 

With no further ado, here's CTS's take on Arms, 2.0.

 

Minor Traits:

Furious Burst:  Stays the same, gain 5s Fury on burst use with 15s ICD

Deep strikes: gain might (5 stacks for 5s in PvE, 3 stacks for 5s in PvP/WvW) when you gain Fury

Furious [new]:  Gain bonus adrenaline on critical hits.  Fury grants additional +10% critical chance (+30% total).

 

Adept Traits:

Wounding Precision:  Fury grants +180 condition damage

*the current version could be left as it is, but I was trying to end the unhappy marriage of precision and expertise since that would only really make sense on Rabid, Viper, Rampager, and Sinister, and I wanted to broaden the usefulness to all condi gear.

 

Signet Mastery:  Stays the same; pretty good trait.  

 

Opportunist:  Gain +30% critical chance when striking a foe with a movement-impairing condition.  Gain Fury for 5s when inflicting a foe with such a condition (5s ICD).

 

Master Traits:

Unsuspecting Foe:  Gain +50% critical chance when striking a disabled foe.  Gain Fury for 5s when you disable a foe (5s ICD).

 

Sundering Burst:  Stays the same, pretty good trait

 

Blademaster:   Stays the same, pretty good trait

 

Grand Master Traits:

Burst Precision:  Stays the same, pretty good trait

 

Bloodlust [new]: Siphon health when you inflict a foe with bleeding (Life siphon damage: 120; LS healing: 100; can only happen once per 1/4s interval).  Bleeding lasts 33% longer.

 

Dual Wield:  Stays the same, pretty good trait

*I realize some folks feel strongly that this is a bad trait, but I think the real problem is that Warrior's offhand weapons severely underperform and there just aren't 2 full weaponsets of 1-handed weapons to put together.  If this changed, I think this skill would really shine.  For instance, imagine if Riposte (sword 5) was reworked to be a 2s block with flip-over skill (strike up to 3 targets and inflict 6 stacks of bleeding) with a 20s CD.  Now you've got a shield-substitute.  You could run Sw/Axe and Axe/Sw to great effect.

 

Comments:

1.) Note that all the minor traits are useful regardless of whether you're building for condi or for power.

2.) Between high fury up-time and the critical chance increases on Opportunist and Unsuspecting Foe, you could achieve 60-80% critical chance even on Valkyrie (or similar) gear.  This would open lots of new power build opportunities, esp in WvW, and will help address Warrior's squishiness.

3.) There is now sustain potential in the forms of might generation (to synergize with MMR or mending might) and Bloodlust.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I was bored and wanted to take another crack at this.  Hope you enjoy!

 

Central thesis:  Arms should aim to do 3 things:

1.)  Offer traits/effects that greatly increase critical chance, with the ultimate aim of being able to run Valkyrie (or Cavalier or Soldier or another precision-less gear type) effectively.

 

2.) Offer traits/effects that empower condi builds

 

3.) Be constructed in such a way that the player gets to choose which one of 1.) or 2.) he wants rather than get stuck with traits that don't help his build.  To clarify, the current Deep Strikes and Bloodlust minor traits are both condi-oriented, and therefore not helpful if you're trying to make a power build.  Ergo, the current design is poor and could be improved.

 

With no further ado, here's CTS's take on Arms, 2.0.

 

Minor Traits:

Furious Burst:  Stays the same, gain 5s Fury on burst use with 15s ICD

Deep strikes: gain might (5 stacks for 5s in PvE, 3 stacks for 5s in PvP/WvW) when you gain Fury

You'd need an ICD on this one, or limit to just one or two might stacks. Especially considering the extra Fury sources you are throwing in.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Furious [new]:  Gain bonus adrenaline on critical hits.  Fury grants additional +10% critical chance (+30% total).

 

Adept Traits:

Wounding Precision:  Fury grants +180 condition damage

*the current version could be left as it is, but I was trying to end the unhappy marriage of precision and expertise since that would only really make sense on Rabid, Viper, Rampager, and Sinister, and I wanted to broaden the usefulness to all condi gear.

 

Signet Mastery:  Stays the same; pretty good trait.  

 

Opportunist:  Gain +30% critical chance when striking a foe with a movement-impairing condition.  Gain Fury for 5s when inflicting a foe with such a condition (5s ICD).

To short of an ICD and to much crit chance (My balance hat is on btw). This Fury source and the one below should be 15s ICD. Between them and Furious Burst you'd already be perma maintaining Fury, so the 5s ICD on Opportunist and UF is not at all needed.

The crit chance here should be +15% or +5% per such condition in order to be in line with what is typical of such traits if not even lower. At 15%, the base crit chance, the expanded Fury from the new Furious minor, and UF's +50% you'd be hitting 100% crit chance.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Master Traits:

Unsuspecting Foe:  Gain +50% critical chance when striking a disabled foe.  Gain Fury for 5s when you disable a foe (5s ICD).

See above not on ICDs.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Sundering Burst:  Stays the same, pretty good trait

 

Blademaster:   Stays the same, pretty good trait

 

Grand Master Traits:

Burst Precision:  Stays the same, pretty good trait

This one can be used to gain windows of 100% crit chance, so someone could take a mix of crit and condi traits. I've suggested in the past, and I will again here, that this should persist for 1s per bar of adrenaline spent.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Bloodlust [new]: Siphon health when you inflict a foe with bleeding (Life siphon damage: 120; LS healing: 100; can only happen once per 1/4s interval).  Bleeding lasts 33% longer.

The trait from Soulbeast that steals health when they poison a foe has no ICD, and is a master trait, and they have skills with multiple poison stacks. It is not at all unbalanced for this to have no ICD, so get rid of the 1/4s interval.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Dual Wield:  Stays the same, pretty good trait

*I realize some folks feel strongly that this is a bad trait, but I think the real problem is that Warrior's offhand weapons severely underperform and there just aren't 2 full weaponsets of 1-handed weapons to put together.  If this changed, I think this skill would really shine.  For instance, imagine if Riposte (sword 5) was reworked to be a 2s block with flip-over skill (strike up to 3 targets and inflict 6 stacks of bleeding) with a 20s CD.  Now you've got a shield-substitute.  You could run Sw/Axe and Axe/Sw to great effect.

You're right that the OH weapons need actual reworks, but the trait itself is still not that powerful for a GM. Quickness does only result in an actual 33% IAS, so a 20% IAS is nominally pretty good, but the weapon that would make the best use of it comes with built in quickness.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Comments:

1.) Note that all the minor traits are useful regardless of whether you're building for condi or for power.

2.) Between high fury up-time and the critical chance increases on Opportunist and Unsuspecting Foe, you could achieve 60-80% critical chance even on Valkyrie (or similar) gear.  This would open lots of new power build opportunities, esp in WvW, and will help address Warrior's squishiness.

You forgot the base crit chance and built in +30% fury you created. As is you'd be overcapped on crit chance sitting at 115%.

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

3.) There is now sustain potential in the forms of might generation (to synergize with MMR or mending might) and Bloodlust.

Both are good, though on one you need an ICD (there are way too many synergies to exploit through both skills and gear that would result in large amounts of self healing that would only get MM and MMR nerfed hard), and the other you need to get rid of the ICD.

To my point about might on fury gain above. in PvP/WvW FGJ gives 12 might. It would now give the warrior 15. Phalanx Strength would then give those 15 might to your team, so that is 15*5+12*4 = 123 might stacks, of with no healing power 6150 healing fir the warrior. Not including MMR even yet. Now include Pack Runes, SIgnet of Might, Rage signet into the mix and you'll see problems arise quickly.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You'd need an ICD on this one, or limit to just one or two might stacks. Especially considering the extra Fury sources you are throwing in.

To short of an ICD and to much crit chance (My balance hat is on btw). This Fury source and the one below should be 15s ICD. Between them and Furious Burst you'd already be perma maintaining Fury, so the 5s ICD on Opportunist and UF is not at all needed.

The crit chance here should be +15% or +5% per such condition in order to be in line with what is typical of such traits if not even lower. At 15%, the base crit chance, the expanded Fury from the new Furious minor, and UF's +50% you'd be hitting 100% crit chance.

See above not on ICDs.

This one can be used to gain windows of 100% crit chance, so someone could take a mix of crit and condi traits. I've suggested in the past, and I will again here, that this should persist for 1s per bar of adrenaline spent.

The trait from Soulbeast that steals health when they poison a foe has no ICD, and is a master trait, and they have skills with multiple poison stacks. It is not at all unbalanced for this to have no ICD, so get rid of the 1/4s interval.

You're right that the OH weapons need actual reworks, but the trait itself is still not that powerful for a GM. Quickness does only result in an actual 33% IAS, so a 20% IAS is nominally pretty good, but the weapon that would make the best use of it comes with built in quickness.

You forgot the base crit chance and built in +30% fury you created. As is you'd be overcapped on crit chance sitting at 115%.

Both are good, though on one you need an ICD (there are way too many synergies to exploit through both skills and gear that would result in large amounts of self healing that would only get MM and MMR nerfed hard), and the other you need to get rid of the ICD.

To my point about might on fury gain above. in PvP/WvW FGJ gives 12 might. It would now give the warrior 15. Phalanx Strength would then give those 15 might to your team, so that is 15*5+12*4 = 123 might stacks, of with no healing power 6150 healing fir the warrior. Not including MMR even yet. Now include Pack Runes, SIgnet of Might, Rage signet into the mix and you'll see problems arise quickly.

Thanks for the commentary, Lan! Excellent feedback, as always.

 

A few thoughts:

1.) You might be right that opportunist giving +30% crit chance vs movement-impaired foes might be too high.  I still dream for War to have nice things, but +15-20% crit chance could still be a good boost, esp if we get fury to have +30% crit chance.

 

2.) I would push back on the ICDs on Opportunist and UF being too low, though.  The current Opportunist offers 10s fury with a 10s CD, thus making perma fury a thing.  I carried that precedent forward in my proposed trait changes.  And you'd still have to work to keep generating that fury (i.e., applying movement-impairing conditions or CC'ing the target), so I think its fair.  But if the ICD did need to be increased, I'd advocate for something shorter like 10s rather than 15s.

 

3.) you're right that there is the potential to hit the limit on critical chance between Fury, Opportunist, and UF being active all at the same time.  I personally don't think that's a problem, as that would A.) require someone to have selected both Opportunist and UF, and B.) would happen only for very short windows (since people are only CC'd for very short periods of time normally).  IMO, if you manage to cripple AND CC a dude, you should be able to reap the benefits of both increases in crit chance.

 

4.) You're also probably right that there should be a short ICD (like maybe 1-3s) on deep strikes' might generation.  However, I'm less concerned about it's synergy with MMR and mending might being OP.  For instance, in the example you mentioned, the massive healing  generated is mostly coming from FGJ and phalanx strength; a mere 18 of the 123 might is coming from the trait in arms.  If there is a problem with the might-to-healing mechanic, it probably lies more with mending might/phalanx strength than it does from 3 stacks of might being generated when you get fury.  

 

Furthermore, while all that crazy healing potential looks great on paper, it doesn't seem to actually work out that way in practice.  Otherwise, you'd see tons of tactics warriors in all the WvW zergs abusing the crap out of it, which, to the best of my knowledge, is not the case (correct me if I'm wrong; my WvW experience is fairly limited thus far, but I haven't seen many Wars of any type running around when I do play).

 

I'd like to see how the might generation from deep strikes played out in various situations (PvE vs PvP vs WvW).  Totally possible that some balance changes might be needed, but I think it would be a reasonable thing to try.

 

5.)  I'd be down for trying bloodlust without an ICD for the life siphon, but I just worried that getting a burst of 6 x 120 damage + 6 x 100 healing on a final thrust might be too much, esp when every sword auto attack would also proc it.  In your Soulbeast example, they have only a handful of skills that apply poison, and they aren't able to dish it out as consistently as War can dish out bleeding.  Consider if condi shortbow SB could proc life siphon for every stack of bleeding...that would be busted AF.  That would be my concern here.  Still willing to try it, though, since War has to be melee range to pull it off, so that might be the inherent "Trade-off" to justify such a strong mechanic.

 

Thanks again for the great discussion!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Thanks for the commentary, Lan! Excellent feedback, as always.

 

A few thoughts:

1.) You might be right that opportunist giving +30% crit chance vs movement-impaired foes might be too high.  I still dream for War to have nice things, but +15-20% crit chance could still be a good boost, esp if we get fury to have +30% crit chance.

 

2.) I would push back on the ICDs on Opportunist and UF being too low, though.  The current Opportunist offers 10s fury with a 10s CD, thus making perma fury a thing.  I carried that precedent forward in my proposed trait changes.  And you'd still have to work to keep generating that fury (i.e., applying movement-impairing conditions or CC'ing the target), so I think its fair.  But if the ICD did need to be increased, I'd advocate for something shorter like 10s rather than 15s.

All fair. It's more of that a lot of the fury generation traits typically have CDs longer than the durations (across all classes here) and here you are adding several more into the traitline.

3 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

3.) you're right that there is the potential to hit the limit on critical chance between Fury, Opportunist, and UF being active all at the same time.  I personally don't think that's a problem, as that would A.) require someone to have selected both Opportunist and UF, and B.) would happen only for very short windows (since people are only CC'd for very short periods of time normally).  IMO, if you manage to cripple AND CC a dude, you should be able to reap the benefits of both increases in crit chance.

I don't disagree in principle, though I still think Burst Precision should linger based on adrenaline spent and would cover most of this.

3 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

4.) You're also probably right that there should be a short ICD (like maybe 1-3s) on deep strikes' might generation.  However, I'm less concerned about it's synergy with MMR and mending might being OP.  For instance, in the example you mentioned, the massive healing  generated is mostly coming from FGJ and phalanx strength; a mere 18 of the 123 might is coming from the trait in arms.  If there is a problem with the might-to-healing mechanic, it probably lies more with mending might/phalanx strength than it does from 3 stacks of might being generated when you get fury.  

 

Furthermore, while all that crazy healing potential looks great on paper, it doesn't seem to actually work out that way in practice.  Otherwise, you'd see tons of tactics warriors in all the WvW zergs abusing the crap out of it, which, to the best of my knowledge, is not the case (correct me if I'm wrong; my WvW experience is fairly limited thus far, but I haven't seen many Wars of any type running around when I do play).

I have abused the crap out of it lol. Its hard to pull off because you need 4 buddies within 600 range of you, But it is a melee push? Yeah, so long as you have might skills to pump out you have lots of burst healing.

3 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I'd like to see how the might generation from deep strikes played out in various situations (PvE vs PvP vs WvW).  Totally possible that some balance changes might be needed, but I think it would be a reasonable thing to try.

It would be worth a try.

3 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

5.)  I'd be down for trying bloodlust without an ICD for the life siphon, but I just worried that getting a burst of 6 x 120 damage + 6 x 100 healing on a final thrust might be too much, esp when every sword auto attack would also proc it.  In your Soulbeast example, they have only a handful of skills that apply poison, and they aren't able to dish it out as consistently as War can dish out bleeding.  Consider if condi shortbow SB could proc life siphon for every stack of bleeding...that would be busted AF.  That would be my concern here.  Still willing to try it, though, since War has to be melee range to pull it off, so that might be the inherent "Trade-off" to justify such a strong mechanic.

Nah, the only thing you are worring about on warrior is Flurry, FT, Riposte, and Pin Down. LB could use the sustain, and we need more reasons to use OH sword. Flurry even with your setup would life syphon every hit, and FT would finally live up to its name.

3 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Thanks again for the great discussion!

NP. o7