The Icebrood Saga

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

7 hours ago, Matthew.9473 said:

Another thing I want to say, besides simply delaying Champions to *properly* wrap up the story in a way that wasn't so crazy rushed, a particular change I would've made is dedicate IBS entirely to Jormag. Then "The Destroyer Saga" or whatever entirely to Primordus. And then yet ANOTHER season or expansion story dedicated to both of them, at the end finally destroying each other.

Or place that at the end of the primordus season. That would've given the story plenty of breathing room.

I mean think about how many times an expac/season's ending was rushed (albeit not as bad as how champions ended I'd say). Heart of Thorns? Wondering through the jungle then we realize we gotta kill Mordremoth and the solution is handed onto a silver platter. Compare that to the personal story and Zhaitan. Yes the actual fight was BLEH but at least there was a ton of proper build up and strategy to preparing for the fight. Season 4 Ep. 6, while I accept the solution being logical, pacing-wise it was off. Any weight from how Ep. 5 ended is not even there for a few minutes if you play them back-to-back. And also there's a bit with the real Lazurus at the end of season 3 for some reason I remember? Which was... odd.

Primordus did essentially get a "Destroyer Saga" as is, it was just split between LWS3 and IBS, with other bits scattered about throughout the game's narrative.

If you look at all the Elder Dragons, they were all handled pretty much the exact same way. Back in core(or LWS2 for Mordremoth) each of the Elder Dragons had areas were we fought their minions in a significant way, leading to a battle with a major champion(Tequatal, Shatterer, Claw, Megadestroyer, Vinewrath) Then, when it came to the actual fight against the dragons themselves, that fight was spread across three maps + a dragon battle

• Zhiatan had Straights of Devastation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore, with the dragon fight of Arah story mode
• Mordremoth had Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, and Tangled Depths, with the dragon fight in Dragon's Stand
• Kralk had Vabbi, Jahai, and Thunderhead, with the dragon fight in Dragonfall
• Jormag had Bitterfrost, Bjora, and Drizzlewood, with the dragon fight in Dragonstorm
• Primordus had Ember Bay, and Draconis Mons, with the first two Champions releases replacing his third map in what was likely the Centaur homelands, with the dragon fight in Dragonstorm.

This ties into stories related to Primordus as well like the Asura plot. The story people wanted for the Asura is us going underground, finding a lost Asura city, Learning more about the Asura who stayed underground, finding some research/tech they developed to fight Primordus, using that research/tech to find Primordus' weakness, exploiting it to kill Primordus, and dealing with the Inquest trying to take that information, and...

• We went underground(in Tangled Depths)
• Found a lost Asuran city(Rata Novus)
• Learned more about the Asura who stayed underground to keep fighting Primordus(Rata Novans)
• Found some research/tech they developed to fight Primordus(Dragon Lab at Rata Novus)
• Used that to find Primordus' weakness(Taimi's experiments/investigations in LWS3)
• Exploited that to kill Primodus(The first attempt using Taimi's machine which we had to stop, then in IBS)
• Dealt with the Inquest trying to steal these secrets(Inquest trying to pillage the secrets of the Rata Novans who fled to Draconis Mons)

And this was done mostly in the Ember Bay, and Draconis Mons releases, both of which were heavily Primordus focused, and featured Asura heavily.

The same is true of the Dwarven story as well, by the time of Champions we

• Had gone to all the old Dwarven lands from Iron Horse Mines in the north, to Port Sledge/Droknar's Forge in the south.
• Found another living Dwarf in Rhoban, and the ghost of another Dwarf in Frodak Steelstar.
• Investigated several underground Dwarven ruins now inhabited by monsters(including Destroyers) like the Derelict Delve, and Deepstone.
• Found the legacy of the Dwarves in the Dragonsblood Forge in Thunderhead, and used it to kill Kralkatorrik.
• Learned what happened to the Stone Summit, and ended the last of their kind, in the Forging Steel mission.
• Made peace with at least some of the Dredge, the species formally enslaved by the Stone Summit, and who consider themselves the successors to the Dwarves.
• Done various smaller things like reforging some ancient Dwarven weapons, and collecting the legends of the old Dwarven heroes.

By the time Champions rolls around both the Asura and Dwarven stories were largely already done. There really wasn't much to do besides have Primordus' Destroyers invade the surface en mass, and have Braham do the thing LWS3 heavily hinted he would have to do, become Primordus' Champion to lead it to fight Jormag head on... and they did that. Hell, even most of THAT later story had been done in Icebrood Saga before Champions began, leaving little for them to expand on that besides have Braham jump into the volcano and actually do it.

People say the story was rushed... but it really wasn't. Instead of the 4 Champions releases we would have gotten 4 chapter releases, which would have been the same plot, just on new maps instead of reusing old ones. Even then, you look at Arah, Dragon's Stand, and Dragonfall, and none of them are particularly story heavy sections of the game because, by that point, we already know/have everything we need to defeat the dragons, we are just using it. The last two originally planned chapters of IBS would have likely been very story lite, mostly focused on a larger, 2 hour grind, meta like Drizzlewood was, for a larger Dragonstorm map ending with what would have likely been the same battle we got.

The only thing we really lost out on was the Centaur plot they were likely going to do in Chapters 5/6 of IBS. With us likely making peace with them as we have to join together to fight Primordus' minions who are emerging in that region. But even that got carried over into Champions, just across more races like the Tengu and such instead of the Centaurs.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Matthew.9473]

On 10/22/2021 at 11:20 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Primordus did essentially get a "Destroyer Saga" as is, it was just split between LWS3 and IBS, with other bits scattered about throughout the game's narrative.

If you look at all the Elder Dragons, they were all handled pretty much the exact same way. Back in core(or LWS2 for Mordremoth) each of the Elder Dragons had areas were we fought their minions in a significant way, leading to a battle with a major champion(Tequatal, Shatterer, Claw, Megadestroyer, Vinewrath) Then, when it came to the actual fight against the dragons themselves, that fight was spread across three maps + a dragon battle

• Zhiatan had Straights of Devastation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore, with the dragon fight of Arah story mode
• Mordremoth had Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, and Tangled Depths, with the dragon fight in Dragon's Stand
• Kralk had Vabbi, Jahai, and Thunderhead, with the dragon fight in Dragonfall
• Jormag had Bitterfrost, Bjora, and Drizzlewood, with the dragon fight in Dragonstorm
• Primordus had Ember Bay, and Draconis Mons, with the first two Champions releases replacing his third map in what was likely the Centaur homelands, with the dragon fight in Dragonstorm.

This ties into stories related to Primordus as well like the Asura plot. The story people wanted for the Asura is us going underground, finding a lost Asura city, Learning more about the Asura who stayed underground, finding some research/tech they developed to fight Primordus, using that research/tech to find Primordus' weakness, exploiting it to kill Primordus, and dealing with the Inquest trying to take that information, and...

• We went underground(in Tangled Depths)
• Found a lost Asuran city(Rata Novus)
• Learned more about the Asura who stayed underground to keep fighting Primordus(Rata Novans)
• Found some research/tech they developed to fight Primordus(Dragon Lab at Rata Novus)
• Used that to find Primordus' weakness(Taimi's experiments/investigations in LWS3)
• Exploited that to kill Primodus(The first attempt using Taimi's machine which we had to stop, then in IBS)
• Dealt with the Inquest trying to steal these secrets(Inquest trying to pillage the secrets of the Rata Novans who fled to Draconis Mons)

And this was done mostly in the Ember Bay, and Draconis Mons releases, both of which were heavily Primordus focused, and featured Asura heavily.

The same is true of the Dwarven story as well, by the time of Champions we

• Had gone to all the old Dwarven lands from Iron Horse Mines in the north, to Port Sledge/Droknar's Forge in the south.
• Found another living Dwarf in Rhoban, and the ghost of another Dwarf in Frodak Steelstar.
• Investigated several underground Dwarven ruins now inhabited by monsters(including Destroyers) like the Derelict Delve, and Deepstone.
• Found the legacy of the Dwarves in the Dragonsblood Forge in Thunderhead, and used it to kill Kralkatorrik.
• Learned what happened to the Stone Summit, and ended the last of their kind, in the Forging Steel mission.
• Made peace with at least some of the Dredge, the species formally enslaved by the Stone Summit, and who consider themselves the successors to the Dwarves.
• Done various smaller things like reforging some ancient Dwarven weapons, and collecting the legends of the old Dwarven heroes.

By the time Champions rolls around both the Asura and Dwarven stories were largely already done. There really wasn't much to do besides have Primordus' Destroyers invade the surface en mass, and have Braham do the thing LWS3 heavily hinted he would have to do, become Primordus' Champion to lead it to fight Jormag head on... and they did that. Hell, even most of THAT later story had been done in Icebrood Saga before Champions began, leaving little for them to expand on that besides have Braham jump into the volcano and actually do it.

People say the story was rushed... but it really wasn't. Instead of the 4 Champions releases we would have gotten 4 chapter releases, which would have been the same plot, just on new maps instead of reusing old ones. Even then, you look at Arah, Dragon's Stand, and Dragonfall, and none of them are particularly story heavy sections of the game because, by that point, we already know/have everything we need to defeat the dragons, we are just using it. The last two originally planned chapters of IBS would have likely been very story lite, mostly focused on a larger, 2 hour grind, meta like Drizzlewood was, for a larger Dragonstorm map ending with what would have likely been the same battle we got.

The only thing we really lost out on was the Centaur plot they were likely going to do in Chapters 5/6 of IBS. With us likely making peace with them as we have to join together to fight Primordus' minions who are emerging in that region. But even that got carried over into Champions, just across more races like the Tengu and such instead of the Centaurs

 

Ok I'm going to just say because that's why too much for me to try to respond to. Sure, we didn't get absolutely nothing. But it could've been way better. It wasn't on the same level of focus as some of the other dragons got. Especially Jormag, LOTTA focus on jormag in IBS, which I was LOVING.

 

Also you're talking a lot about map-stuff. I'm not talking about map-stuff. I'm talking about what actually happens in the story. A part of how it was rushed was the WAY we defeat them both. It's incredibly vague and convenient. To effictively sweep Jormag and Primordus under the rug for the deep sea dragon and EoD. I get why they had to rush it. OR at least felt like they had to. I just wish they hadn't.

 

So yeah, not absolutely nothing. But that seems like a lot of small details. Cool, but not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about something like how much we got to talk to Kralkatorrik (not to mention his relationship with Aurene), and Jormag too.

 

And heck Mordremoth basically being able to control some of the Sylvari. That was a big cool part of the story too. Zhaitan at least you spent a huge chunk of the story in a proper *war* with a lot of strategy and planning, leading the pact into the heart of his domain. Primordus I can't speak of anything that interesting going on with him. Nothing that big and important in the story. Not like my previous examples. Heck in a tier list I'd go

1. Jormag

2.Kralkatorrik

3.Zhaitan

4.Mordremoth

5.Primordus

 

Because Mordremoth like I said has the Sylvari thing being so central.

Actually I can simplify this even further.

All the other dragons have a huge portion of the story dedicated to them as a threat to the world. Primordus is the only one that didn't get an expansion or LW season dedicated to them. And no, I would not argue IBS. That was all jormag until a bit of Primordus at the end, but only as a means to kill Jormag and Primordus at the same time pretty much.

A large chunk of the Personal Story was dedicated to Zhaitan, HoT to Mordy, Season 4 to Kralk, and IBS to Jormag. All those small details don't compare.

[Parthenos Polias.5683]

2 hours ago, Matthew.9473 said:

A part of how it was rushed was the WAY we defeat them both. It's incredibly vague and convenient. To effictively sweep Jormag and Primordus under the rug for the deep sea dragon and EoD. I get why they had to rush it. OR at least felt like they had to. I just wish they hadn't.

 

(...)

Primordus is the only one that didn't get an expansion or LW season dedicated to them. And no, I would not argue IBS. That was all jormag until a bit of Primordus at the end, but only as a means to kill Jormag and Primordus at the same time pretty much.

A large chunk of the Personal Story was dedicated to Zhaitan, HoT to Mordy, Season 4 to Kralk, and IBS to Jormag. All those small details don't compare.

 

You really tend to forgot LW S3.
Episode 2, 3 and 5 were about Primordus, and we got 2 maps around were he lives.

Since LW S3 Ep 3 (November 2016) we know that :

Quote

Taimi: I've been digging through old Rata Novan research on Primordus for an exploitable weakness, and I found a solid lead.

Taimi: According to these findings, Primordus's domain of magic can be counteracted somehow, negating it altogether!

Taimi: As for the possible counteracting agent, I'm still investigating. New answers lead to new questions. What's your status?

(...)

Taimi: We need a force that can counter Primordus. What if it's another dragon? An ice dragon, for instance?

Taimi: Remember what I was telling you about that chak organ? How it could selectively filter certain types of magic?

Taimi: If we can discern magic types, we may be able to pit Jormag and Primordus against one another, destroying them both at once!

So since 1329 AE the characters know the weakness of Primordus and how to defeat both Primodus and Jormag.
But they had to wait until 1333 AE for the two dragons to reawake.

And then in 1334 AE, because Aurene is now an elder dragon, able to absorb magic, the characters can use their weakness.

 

They only needed a plan to force the dragons to fight each other and they made it.

Primordus and Jormag didn't need a full LS or a full map where we go fight them (like we did for Zaithan or Mord) because the best way to kill them was always to make them fight each other.

 

Like the Commander said : "I definitely wouldn't object to having a dragon fight with me rather than against me."

[Ultramex.1506]

It barely give much development or insight on his personality/motive, he just got put to sleep then Balthazar, joko, Jormag and Kralkatorrik get most of the spotlight until Champion release, they remember Primordus exist and bring him back just to get rid of him.
For an Elder dragon, he only has more screentime than a Personal story character. Heck, his minions got more screentime than him in his own episode
They couldn't even be bothered to give him a voice

Edited November 9, 2021 by Ultramex.1506

[Katastroff.1045]

I pretty much like the IBS.

Bjora Marches has 2 fun meta, loot is nice and both fights are fun.

Drizzlewood with its map wide meta reminds me a Silverwaiste. TONS of loot, fun fights, tons of achieve to get.

Vision of the past, i didn't toy around much in that one, was returning from a GW break and other content was out, but i remember it as fun.

Dragonstrom:
Great story (Bangar really looks like Scrar from the Lion King) I really enjoyed the story. The missions are fun and are not too annoying to do solo.
The dragonstorm mission makes me sick to my stomach.  The fight itself is a real pile of guano and reminds me of the final fight with Caudecus in Lake Doric before they toned it down. DS is not quite as bad, but the feel is very much there. If you're not carefull and dont spend half your time dodging, you're gonna get bounced and pushed and knocked and launched and what not around, making you wish you were riding inside a washing machine. And then comes the second stage of the fight....

Not doing it anymore, except maybe in story mode.

I made a mesmer 3 months ago to farm me a BLT key, pushed it to lvl 80 then redid all of the stories. It really felt like the story telling part of the game has gotten better over the years and this gives me good vibes for EOD.