What would replace the Elder Dragon ?

[Dawanarth.4601]

Glint's plan is to replace the ED with alternatives that would be less dangerous/aggressive

Aurene is supposed to be the replacement for Krakatoril

And Mordremoth could be succeded by the Pale Tree (Possibly)

But what about the rest ?
Primordius could be replaced by a Dwarf King (Lord of the Deep and made of Rocks)

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Season 3 and Path of Fire firmly established that not anything can replace Elder Dragons. So Jalis - if he were even still alive - shouldn't be capable of doing that. It's why we had to stop Balthazar, after all, since Balthazar's plan was to absorb the dead ED's magic, which would otherwise mean replacing them.

Skyscales were also confirmed to be incapable of replacing Elder Dragons, and a rather heavy implication that what's needed is a "high dragon" (term is my own) which Aurene is - lesser dragons (term is ANet's) such as wyverns, hydras, drakes, and skyscales aren't capable of this.

The Pale Tree, by virtue of being a dragon champion, might be capable of replacing an Elder Dragon, but we're not sure. If they didn't go the route they did, Braham could have possibly been included.

Depending on the route they go for Kuunavang (and all Canthan dragons), we might see additional replacements in her, Albax, Shiny, and new dragon figures popping up in EoD.

However, given the dialogue post-IBS, the total lack of concern throughout IBS about needing additional replacements, and the EoD trailers, it seems they've pretty much effectively and completely abandoned this major plot and Balthazar died for our stupidity.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

56 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

However, given the dialogue post-IBS, the total lack of concern throughout IBS about needing additional replacements, and the EoD trailers, it seems they've pretty much effectively and completely abandoned this major plot and Balthazar died for our stupidity.

Well no, this is just flagrantly untrue.

Aurene was passive during Champions specifically because she wanted to find a way to end the conflict while maintaining the balance, which would have been disrupted by Jormag and Primordus' deaths. Its a big factor behind her inaction through those events. She only acted in the end because it became clear Jormag was too far gone to reason with, and to help Braham.

Similarly, post IBS Taimi has dialogue about the balance. The Commander can ask her about the flow of magic, and Taimi notes that the Exalted believed Glint's scions, plural, would maintain it. Noting the fact nothing bad has happened yet either means Aurene can handle it, there is something else out there, or time is limited. Even she acknowledges there may be an issue.

So no, they very demonstrably didn't "abandon" any such major plot... because its still a major plot point in IBS, and during the "Living World Return" side story events.

This not getting into any of the already established plot reasons why Aurene would be able to hold it together as well as she does. Such as her prismatic nature allowing her to hold multiple magics without them conflicting like they did in Kralk, and Sadizi's comments in Path of Fire, during the cutscene in "The Way Forward", about how the point of Glint's plan was to replace the Elder Dragons with beings that circulate and share magic, rather then horde it like the Elder Dragons do, something echows by Glint in LWS4. Aurene doesn't have to physically hold all the magic in her to maintain the same balance the Elder Dragons provided.

Though with the clear yin/yang symbolism in the EoD trailer, and the whole talk of the cycle being reborn, we will likely end up with Aurene and Kuunavang being the ones maintaining the balance together. Them circulating/sharing the magic instead of hording it into themselves like the previous Elder Dragons, allowing them to maintain the balance with less entities doing it.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[galen ubal.2807]

H'm.  Blue-sky idea here.

It looks like the Jade Seas and deposits in Cantha have the capacity to store magic - not unlike the Bloodstones of yore.  Perhaps that's where some of the magic went after the deaths of Kralk and Primordus?

[Delta.1526]

19 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Season 3 and Path of Fire firmly established that not anything can replace Elder Dragons. So Jalis - if he were even still alive - shouldn't be capable of doing that. It's why we had to stop Balthazar, after all, since Balthazar's plan was to absorb the dead ED's magic, which would otherwise mean replacing them.

I've been replaying PoF and recently had a grand old chat with Kormir. Balthazar did want to absorb the magic of Kralkatorrik in PoF, yeah -- but he also wanted to absorb the power of Jormag and Primordus in LS3. In the flashback where his disagreement with the other Five was revealed, he says outright -- "The Elder Dragons will die by my hands...and their power will become my power." 

I don't think the reason we had to stop him eating Kralkatorrik was anything to do with Balthazar being somehow incapable of replacing an Elder Dragon. Rather, we had to stop him because he's no better a vessel than an Elder Dragon, and might have even been worse. When Rytlock released him from the Mists, Balth immediately got jacked up on a Bloodstone, conned the White Mantle into following him to Draconis Mons (which is alarmingly close to another tasty Bloodstone), tried to slurp up all the Primordus and Jormag magic he could, then went to parlay with Palawa Joko so he could learn how to plug souls into constructs and force them to wage eternal warfare -- starting with his loyal Eternals, but branching out into any soul he could murder in battle or throw into a volcano. 

If he'd eaten Kralkatorrik, then what? He'd call it quits and retire to the Battle Isles? No, he'd go for Primordus, and Jormag, and whatever the hell the other one's called. Then he'd bugger off into the Mists, hunt down the Gods that stripped him of his domain and eat them too. He was the God of War, Fire and Destruction. He was Conflict, and Tyria wouldn't have survived him. 

If all that The All needed to maintain balance was a vessel that could contain arbitrarily large amounts of magic, then we might as well just make more Bloodstones. It seems like the problem with too much magic isn't like, "if X amount of magic is in the environment then reality will spontaneously combust". Rather, it seems like it has to do with how beings would use that much magic if they could.

Consider the original Bloodstone -- Abaddon gave humans (and other races?) access to the full spectrum of magical potential contained within the Bloodstone, and they immediately used it to blow each other up. Doric pleaded with the other Gods to save humanity from itself, so they split the Bloodstone into distinct domains and limited people's access to the magics within. Beings using subsets of magic doesn't seem to be an existential threat -- but when all these different branches of magic mingle, they conflict with each other and torment those who wield them...but also tempt them into wanting more and more power.

It seems like Aurene is able to keep the domains of magic she's consumed separate somewhat. Maybe that's because we raised her to be a good girl who stores power, limits her own use of it, and shares it with others when required. Maybe it has something to do with her nature as Glint's scion, and the Facets found in Glint's Lair (and... elsewhere.) Not certain yet. But she's certainly a more responsible vessel of so much Power than Balthazar would've been.

As far as other beings who could assume some of these domains go...The Pale Tree is an obvious pick to assume the role of Mordremoth, as an Elder Dragon's scion herself. (Or at the very least, a Champion with clear access to his domain of Dream/Mind.) Kuunavang is in a similar situation. The other three dead dragons are a little harder to identify a vessel for. Humans can certainly assume magical domains of Gods, seeing as Kormir and Grenth are both usurpers -- and Balthazar seemed very sure he could contain the power of Kralkatorrik, so I don't think it's out of the question that a mortal could ascend to this role. I don't know if I'm into it, but I think it's possible.

Otherwise...if we need something to be the next Zhaitan maybe we should check in on Rotscale, it's not like he's got anything else going on.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Delta.1526

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

59 minutes ago, Delta.1526 said:

I've been replaying PoF and recently had a grand old chat with Kormir. Balthazar did want to absorb the magic of Kralkatorrik in PoF, yeah -- but he also wanted to absorb the power of Jormag and Primordus in LS3. In the flashback where his disagreement with the other Five was revealed, he says outright -- "The Elder Dragons will die by my hands...and their power will become my power." 

-words-

So I was a bit hyperbolic overall because the apparent disregard to Season 3, PoF, and Season 4's explciit and reoccurring statement of "we cannot kill any more Elder Dragons without replacements" has been effectively ignored until ANet began backtracking with the post-IBS Taimi dialogue (which barely mentions the topic by simply asking "maybe Aurene can't replace all Elder Dragons after all" which was never once brought up at any point of the story with absolutely zero effort to find additional replacements until we pass where it should be, per S3->S4, at the point of "oh kitten it's too late").

 

On the matter of Balthazar itself, that conflict was still done pretty kitten shoddily because as you mention, that notion of Balthazar wanting to kill all the Elder Dragons came halfway into Path of Fire, which itself was part 2 of the Balthazar plotline.

In Flashpoint, specifically when we first antagonize Balthazar, the only reason we had to fight him was literally "so the guy calling himself the ancient mursaat Lazarus who has been draining the White Mantle of their funds to establish an Anti-Elder Dragon mercenary army is in fact not Lazarus". Instead of talking it out after literally zero hostility from "Lazarus" the Commander instead creates an impromptu trap to forcibly reveal "Lazarus"'s true identity. And this is what sparked the issue.

We didn't even know at that moment - because Taimi was in "act first, questions and explanations later" aka Caithe mode at the time - that we couldn't kill another Elder Dragon.

Now, later on, the issue indeed became a case of "if Balthazar kills an Elder Dragon the world dies" - but as we see, we killed more Elder Dragons and the world in fact did not die. Nor does it show any signs of dying - otherwise, I'm pretty sure Taimi would have told us of this, and our first map in EoD won't be an idealic Shing Jea with no major conflict (per the stream, that map takes place before the metaphorical kitten hits the allegorical fan). This means that if Balthazar did kill Jormag and Primordus in S3, he wouldn't have destroyed Tyria after all. Taimi's last minute discovery after we antagonized Balthazar for no reason other than the identity theft of criminals (something the Commander does on a regular basis, btw) ended up being false.

Which means we could have allied ourselves with Balthazar as he offered, prevented the open massacre of Elonian innocents because he'd have the Pact and mercenary forces to work with and thus not need to make an army out of slaves, and would have simply noped out of Tyria once he got his strength back - maybe human Commanders would have an issue with Balthazar going after the other gods, but the other four race Commanders wouldn't give a flying dolyak about that.

Of course there's the possibility that Aurene has somehow become the solitary pillar that stabilizes The All and somehow regulate all magic that drove the other Elder Dragons insane. But this is never hinted at nor implied in all of S4, IBS, or the postmortem dialogue.

Which means that for all we players know, we could have worked with Balthazar, and Balthazar's personality was twisted from Athena with minor anger issues in GW1 to Ares with minor being-honorable issues in GW2 for absolutely no reason.

 

 

In all honesty, all that could have been an issue if A) they just used Menzies instead of Balthazar (which would have saved them from the whole "well first we need to make up a reason for why he's no longer a god" issue) and B) didn't create that whole "kill another ED without equal numebr of replacements and the world dies" matter since they ended up ignoring it in the end (or simply not kill Vlast, but injure him to the point of crystal hibernation, and let him replace Zhaitan upon Kralk's death).

 

 

59 minutes ago, Delta.1526 said:

If all that The All needed to maintain balance was a vessel that could contain arbitrarily large amounts of magic, then we might as well just make more Bloodstones.

Well, regardless, modern Tyrians can't because they don't know how to. Even the Forgotten couldn't because they didn't have the necessary "divine resources" the Seers used.

59 minutes ago, Delta.1526 said:

Humans can certainly assume magical domains of Gods, seeing as Kormir and Grenth are both usurpers-- and Balthazar seemed very sure he could contain the power of Kralkatorrik, so I don't think it's out of the question that a mortal could ascend to this role. I don't know if I'm into it, but I think it's possible.

Minor clarification here, but this isn't strictly true. Grenth was a demi-god in the first place, and Kormir was only able to replace Abaddon because she received a special blessing from the other five gods that allowed her to. We see what happens to humans who try to absorb too much magic, and it's the same as when other races try - they go insane.

And with Kormir, she is repeatedly said to no longer be human. Much like how Balthazar, Dhuum, and Abaddon seem to be hollow shells containing magic - and according to Taimi's scanner, even Balthazar is "not alive", Koss on Koss said that Kormir died to ascend, and Kormir's journal denotes that she's no longer human.

So it seems that blessing she received fundamentally changed her biology from being of flesh and blood to becoming a vessel of magic. A shell, if you would.

59 minutes ago, Delta.1526 said:

Otherwise...if we need something to be the next Zhaitan maybe we should check in on Rotscale, it's not like he's got anything else going on.

I believe Rotscale was canonically killed by Kieran Thackeray, during the Beyond content.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, Delta.1526 said:

I don't think the reason we had to stop him eating Kralkatorrik was anything to do with Balthazar being somehow incapable of replacing an Elder Dragon.

As far as we know the human gods are unable to serve as replacements for the Elder Dragons because the human gods do not release magic back into the world as Elder Dragons do, they simply horde it in themselves. Letting Balthazar take Kralk's power would not only remove a large portion of the world's magic, but also remove one of the beings cycling it.

 

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So I was a bit hyperbolic overall because the apparent disregard to Season 3, PoF, and Season 4's explciit and reoccurring statement of "we cannot kill any more Elder Dragons without replacements" has been effectively ignored until ANet began backtracking with the post-IBS Taimi dialogue (which barely mentions the topic by simply asking "maybe Aurene can't replace all Elder Dragons after all" which was never once brought up at any point of the story with absolutely zero effort to find additional replacements until we pass where it should be, per S3->S4, at the point of "oh kitten it's too late").

This ignoring that we got a replacement with Aurene. So it wasn't ignored, they just gave us the thing we were missing previously as part of the conclusion to a multi-year storyline going back to LWS2, which was setting Aurene up to do just this. Aurene, as an Elder Dragon capable of cycling the world's magic, didn't exist until the very last second of LWS4's storyline. So they were not wrong up until that point. In the content following that point(IBS) we did have a replacement in Aurene. So it wasn't an issue, or at least as much of it, during that storyline.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

On the matter of Balthazar itself, that conflict was still done pretty kitten shoddily because as you mention, that notion of Balthazar wanting to kill all the Elder Dragons came halfway into Path of Fire, which itself was part 2 of the Balthazar plotline.

This ignoring that Balthazar wanting to kill the Elder Dragons and take their power was literally his whole reason for stealing Taimi's machine, and attempting to use it on Primordus and Jormag in "Flashpoint" back in LWS3. Which was still the first part of Balthazar's storyline.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

In Flashpoint, specifically when we first antagonize Balthazar, the only reason we had to fight him was literally "so the guy calling himself the ancient mursaat Lazarus who has been draining the White Mantle of their funds to establish an Anti-Elder Dragon mercenary army is in fact not Lazarus". Instead of talking it out after literally zero hostility from "Lazarus" the Commander instead creates an impromptu trap to forcibly reveal "Lazarus"'s true identity. And this is what sparked the issue.

We didn't even know at that moment - because Taimi was in "act first, questions and explanations later" aka Caithe mode at the time - that we couldn't kill another Elder Dragon.

This ignoring that the guy using a fake disguise to manipulate an army of religious fanatics, while also building up an army of private mercenaries, and who already caused a massive quasi nuclear explosion of magical energy with the Bloodstone, is obviously not on the level, and up to no good.

Might as well argue that when a neighboring nation is building up a massive military force near your border, and you do a recon expedition to find out their true intent, that you are the one who instigated hostilities that started the later war between your nation and theirs. No, that isn't how that blame works. Good people don't do the things Balthazar/Lazarus did. Its his fault for the way he acted. We just did due diligence in trying to find out who we were working with, and why they were lying to us. Had we not, Balthazar would have done the same thing he did anyways, we would have just been unprepared for it.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Now, later on, the issue indeed became a case of "if Balthazar kills an Elder Dragon the world dies" - but as we see, we killed more Elder Dragons and the world in fact did not die. Nor does it show any signs of dying - otherwise, I'm pretty sure Taimi would have told us of this, and our first map in EoD won't be an idealic Shing Jea with no major conflict (per the stream, that map takes place before the metaphorical kitten hits the allegorical fan). This means that if Balthazar did kill Jormag and Primordus in S3, he wouldn't have destroyed Tyria after all. Taimi's last minute discovery after we antagonized Balthazar for no reason other than the identity theft of criminals (something the Commander does on a regular basis, btw) ended up being false.

This ignoring that the only time we kill an Elder Dragon, after Taimi points out that killing more elder Dragons would doom the world, is when Aurene is at the stage of development to take in the Elder Dragon's magics, and serve as their replacement. So we have yet to kill more Elder Dragons without having a replacement since that comment was made. Even then, the doom of the world doesn't have to be instantaneous. It could be a long term degeneration. It could take a decade or more for all we know. No timeframe was given on how fast the world would die. Shing Jea being fine doesn't mean jack about the world not being doomed.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Which means we could have allied ourselves with Balthazar as he offered, prevented the open massacre of Elonian innocents because he'd have the Pact and mercenary forces to work with and thus not need to make an army out of slaves, and would have simply noped out of Tyria once he got his strength back - maybe human Commanders would have an issue with Balthazar going after the other gods, but the other four race Commanders wouldn't give a flying dolyak about that.

This ignoring that allying with a fanatic who has already made it clear he doesn't care what happens to those around him(the Bloodstone explosion), consistently lied to everyone(from the White Mantle to the Commander), and was perfectly fine with allying with the Inquest, hiring evil mercenaries, and committing the atrocities he did in Elona, is obviously not the right way to go.

Balthazar only cared about getting his revenge on the gods ASAP. He point blank states he doesn't give two flips what happens to Tyria, or its people. He wouldn't have waited around for the Commander to get Aurene into a position where she could absorb Kralkatorrik's magic, and replace him in the cycle, so the world doesn't end. Not to mention, letting Aurene get to that point and do that in the first place totally negates Balthazar's plan of taking the magic for himself so he can fight the gods.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Of course there's the possibility that Aurene has somehow become the solitary pillar that stabilizes The All and somehow regulate all magic that drove the other Elder Dragons insane. But this is never hinted at nor implied in all of S4, IBS, or the postmortem dialogue.

This ignoring the final story instance of LWS4, where Kralkatorrik specifically mentions Aurene has the ability to take in all the conflicting magics in such a way that prevent the same sort of torment that he, and presumably the other Elder Dragons suffer from. Kralk going so far as to call Aurene the first her of kind due to this fundamental difference.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Which means that for all we players know, we could have worked with Balthazar, and Balthazar's personality was twisted from Athena with minor anger issues in GW1 to Ares with minor being-honorable issues in GW2 for absolutely no reason.

This ignoring everything above.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Hi Sajuuk,

For someone who complained about me 'following' them, you sure are responding to my posts a lot.

Bye Sajuuk.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

On 10/25/2021 at 8:04 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Hi Sajuuk,

For someone who complained about me 'following' them, you sure are responding to my posts a lot.

Bye Sajuuk.

I know this may be hard for you to grasp, but just because someone replies to a post you made doesn't mean they are doing it because you personally made it.

Had literally anyone posted the same I would have made the same response because it would be just as demonstrably wrong as it was when you made it.

Get over yourself.

[Dawanarth.4601]

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I know this may be hard for you to grasp, but just because someone replies to a post you made doesn't mean they are doing it because you personally made it.

Hey, I made this post 😞

[The Greyhawk.9107]

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I know this may be hard for you to grasp, but just because someone replies to a post you made doesn't mean they are doing it because you personally made it.

Had literally anyone posted the same I would have made the same response because it would be just as demonstrably wrong as it was when you made it.

Get over yourself.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I know this may be hard for you to grasp, but just because someone replies to a post you made doesn't mean they are doing it because you personally made it.

Had literally anyone posted the same I would have made the same response because it would be just as demonstrably wrong as it was when you made it.

Get over yourself.

Hey Sajuuk,

Just because you have a different interpretation of dialogue or opinion of how a what if scenario would go, does not make others who disagree with you demonstrably wrong.

And just because people don't bother to keep voicing their disagreement past the second or third response, doesn't mean they agree with you or that you're correct; similarly, just because they have enough tolerance to keep discussions going and point out the contradictions in your statements that begin after the fifth post, doesn't mean they have it out for you.

Bye Sajuuk.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

On 10/27/2021 at 10:44 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Just because you have a different interpretation of dialogue or opinion of how a what if scenario would go, does not make others who disagree with you demonstrably wrong.

No one ever implied this, yet another of Konig's famous string of straw mans.

What makes what you said wrong is that its directly contradicted by the game itself, not that I disagree with you on it. I disagree with you on it because the game point blank proves you wrong, but thats another matter entirely. You are confusing two different situations as one, and are saying that someone disagreeing with you that a certain food is good or not, is the same thing as someone disagreeing with you making a comment about the sky being naturally pink with purple polka dots.

 

On 10/27/2021 at 10:44 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And just because people don't bother to keep voicing their disagreement past the second or third response, doesn't mean they agree with you or that you're correct; similarly, just because they have enough tolerance to keep discussions going and point out the contradictions in your statements that begin after the fifth post, doesn't mean they have it out for you.

No one said this either. Yet another straw man. Why are you so hellbent on resorting to this tactic over all others I wonder?

There is a difference between someone constantly replying to you, and someone deliberately stalking you on other websites as you self admitted to doing. Ironic, you constantly try to claim I have it out for you, but you're demonstrably the ones showing more tendencies to having out for me...

[Narcemus.1348]

Can we limit personal arguments to Direct Messages so that topics can remain open for whatever the OP was hoping to discuss? No one wins when two posters derail a topic for an ego trip...

[Kayberz.5346]

On 10/25/2021 at 11:24 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

Of course there's the possibility that Aurene has somehow become the solitary pillar that stabilizes The All and somehow regulate all magic that drove the other Elder Dragons insane. But this is never hinted at nor implied in all of S4, IBS, or the postmortem dialogue.

This is blatantly false though

Kralkatorrik literally tells aurene in the last episode of season 4 that she is different and the first of her kind, he specifically says how her magics do not torment her and are in harmony within her unlike himself 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

This is blatantly false though

Kralkatorrik literally tells aurene in the last episode of season 4 that she is different and the first of her kind, he specifically says how her magics do not torment her and are in harmony within her unlike himself 

But as far as we know, that doesn't affect the All at all (heh). In Season 3, Taimi differentiates the issue of magic overflow and The All's balance. In Season 2, we're told The All is about the Elder Dragons and some spiritual realm they're connected to, while in PoF when we tell Taimi that Kralkatorrik is getting stronger she says that will further the destabilization of the Elder Dragon balance.

All this hints that the overflow of magic != the balance of the All, and in turn that the conflicting magics being in harmony or tormenting != capable of balancing the All alone.

Is it possible? Sure.

But this is never hinted at nor implied in all of S4, IBS, or the postmortem dialogue.

Just like how it was never stated through all of IBS that the Commander and company believed Aurene could balance The All alone and wouldn't need other replacements - their view was never implied nor hinted, until Taimi's postmortem dialogue implying that "oh hey, maybe she can't balance the All by herself given she couldn't take in all that magic".

Edited November 10, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kayberz.5346]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

But as far as we know, that doesn't affect the All at all (heh). In Season 3, Taimi differentiates the issue of magic overflow and The All's balance. In Season 2, we're told The All is about the Elder Dragons and some spiritual realm they're connected to, while in PoF when we tell Taimi that Kralkatorrik is getting stronger she says that will further the destabilization of the Elder Dragon balance.

All this hints that the overflow of magic != the balance of the All, and in turn that the conflicting magics being in harmony or tormenting != capable of balancing the All alone.

Is it possible? Sure.

But this is never hinted at nor implied in all of S4, IBS, or the postmortem dialogue.

Just like how it was never stated through all of IBS that the Commander and company believed Aurene could balance The All alone and wouldn't need other replacements - their view was never implied nor hinted, until Taimi's postmortem dialogue implying that "oh hey, maybe she can't balance the All by herself given she couldn't take in all that magic".

I dont think its fair to say that they just "dropped" the whole plot of the magic becoming unstable in both tyria or The All, its not like the commander and company explicitly did what we did because we thought it was the best idea and wouldn't be a problem, we kinda were forced to do "something" because once jormag and primordus were both becoming increasingly more powerful and active it became clear that unless we stopped them immediately that both of them would destroy tyria regardless.

 

The commander and company were basically forced to wing it and come up with the best plan they could on the spot that seemed to have the best chance of solving the immediate threat of jormag and primordus. I dont think anyone involved was confident it was going to work out, which is evident in the dragonstorm where Taimi is surprised that the plan is actually working and Aurene is clearly being overwhelmed by the magic she is absorbing. We were in a situation where we didn't have time to come up with a better plan with less risk, either jormag/primordus would destroy tyria or we would "possibly" destroy tyria  if our plan didn't work, we choose the option with at least a chance of saving tyria and luckily for us it actually worked.

Its also fair to note that its still possible Aurene cant handle all the magic herself, its clearly stated that a lot of the magic went elsewhere, so it is entirely possible that had the magic not been siphoned away from Aurene that the plan would not have been successful 

 

Edit: random unsubstantiated speculation,  but ive thought about the possibility that the reason the world hasn't been getting increasingly unstable after kralkatorriks death is because  all the dragons that have died since mordremoth have all had their magic immediately siphoned by something which prevented it from wildly dispersing  across tyria. When Balthazar died his magic was immediately taken by kralkatorrik and Aurene. When kralkatorrik died the magic was immediately taken by Aurene, when Primordus and Jormag died their magic was immediately taken by Aurene and whatever it was that took the rest (most likely DSD or Canthan tech), so the amount of ambient magic in tyria theoretically hasn't increased significantly since mordremoths death.

Also as a side note, the number of elder dragons alive at any given time has been an even number after Mordremoths death which may or may not have an effect on the balance of The All

Edited November 10, 2021 by Kayberz.5346

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

I dont think its fair to say that they just "dropped" the whole plot of the magic becoming unstable in both tyria or The All, its not like the commander and company explicitly did what we did because we thought it was the best idea and wouldn't be a problem, we kinda were forced to do "something" because once jormag and primordus were both becoming increasingly more powerful and active it became clear that unless we stopped them immediately that both of them would destroy tyria regardless.

The commander and company were basically forced to wing it and come up with the best plan they could on the spot that seemed to have the best chance of solving the immediate threat of jormag and primordus. I dont think anyone involved was confident it was going to work out, which is evident in the dragonstorm where Taimi is surprised that the plan is actually working and Aurene is clearly being overwhelmed by the magic she is absorbing. We were in a situation where we didn't have time to come up with a better plan with less risk, either jormag/primordus would destroy tyria or we would "possibly" destroy tyria  if our plan didn't work, we choose the option with at least a chance of saving tyria and luckily for us it actually worked.

Pretty much this.

Throughout the first part of IBS's story the Commander and friends were trying to stop Bangar from awakening Jormag, which would have prevented the need to deal with the whole replacement thing in the first place. After that failed, and Jormag woke, Primordus woke shortly thereafter, and both dragons went on what is probably the single largest invasion of the world by the Elder Dragons. Their armies were rampaging all over Tyria from Brisban, to the Centaur Homelands, all the way to Ebonhawke. Even the Pact, with assistance from the armies of the five major races, and many of the smaller races, were having a hard time fending off the dragon's armies.At the same time, the dragons were getting more powerful, Primordus through burning things, and Jormag via freezing people, making these attacks progressively worse.

The whole situation was unsustainable as is. Unless Jormag and Primordus were dealt with right then their armies would overrun Tyria, and everyone would be dead anyways, so the whole "but what about the balance!" thing really didn't matter right then.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Narcemus.1348]

I can't help but feel like there is truth to both sides of this argument. In the end, Icebrood Saga was a half or quarter implemented storyline that was super rushed by the end which left a lot to be desired. The first four chapters were incredibly deep and exciting content that sadly only had the opportunity to introduce the situation before we cut through the whole meat of the  story and rushed to the conclusion. There were a lot of plot points that I can only assume were supposed to come up over the course of this Saga and I can only assume that the balance of the All was going to be one of those points. I don't know if we were going to find others to help Aurene balance the All, or if we were merely going to have a series of adventures/dialogues showing that Aurene can balance everything on her own. Sadly we will never know. And while all points currently seem to lead to Aurene and maybe one other balancing the All, it has sadly not at all been a major point in the story. No cut scenes, missions, or any of the content that your average player would see deals with the problem that was pretty heavily shown to be a problem in the second to last episode in Season 3. I mean in that episode we watch fire and ice fighting each other until they are extinguished and then the entire world shatters. This was then later repeated by a vision from the Eye of Janthir. With this many resources put into showing us that this was a problem, there should have been at least that many resources put into showing that the problem was resolved.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 11/10/2021 at 12:25 PM, Kayberz.5346 said:

I dont think its fair to say that they just "dropped" the whole plot of the magic becoming unstable in both tyria or The All, its not like the commander and company explicitly did what we did because we thought it was the best idea and wouldn't be a problem, we kinda were forced to do "something" because once jormag and primordus were both becoming increasingly more powerful and active it became clear that unless we stopped them immediately that both of them would destroy tyria regardless.

 

-words-

Rather than "dropped" I'd say "ignored until they felt forced to focus on it".

 

And the thing about the whole "forced to wing it" thing is that it doesn't take long to just say a single sentence. The forced killing of Jormag and Primordus would have felt easily 10x better if they had slipped in one sentence or two that was basically just saying "Killing them might worsen the world, but if we don't kill them here and now then Tyrian civilization will definitely be destroyed, so we don't have any other choice but to hope for the best."

The problem is that they never once talk about that. The closest we get is Aurene's worries of balance, but all indication is that this is about the balance of power between Jormag and Primordus rather than the balance of The All or of overflowing magic, and while it's possible it's one and the same, just like Aurene being capable of replacing everyone it's never clarified.

Similar to why and how Dragon's Watch and co. could so easily lure both Primordus and Jormag to Anvil Rock, equilateral their power, and why the two care so much about these two champions (Ryland and Braham) when they have very literally in the "this actually happened" and not in the "this actually didn't happen but I am equating to this" sense gone through nearly a hundred champions by this point in the plot since Eye of the North.

It's so barely touched on that we don't know why it's the way it is (or in this case, why the Commander never bothers to specify that The All's balance is a continued possible issue), only that it apparently is that way (in this case, that The All's balance is apparently not really an issue anymore - or it is and no one cared until after the issue went zooming past the waving red flag).

 

Now admittedly a huge part of this is as @Narcemus.1348 says and is a direct cause of the haphazard shortening of the last four releases into one four-part-megaepisode and if they had just given those four releases the proper time and development that they needed then the clarification might have wormed its way in - either through better editing parses, or through more content to exposition it all out. I would argue up and down against certain individuals' claim that IBS: Champions did indeed get all it wanted out and there would have been effectively nothing but two largely loreless maps and the centaur plot added if Champions had a full team working on it as four distinct episodes, and that EoD had ultimately ruined IBS' plot and Aurene's own character with how she does a sudden 180 after spending 3 parts of Champion worrying about the Balance before going "okay time to kill".

[Psientist.6437]

For the Elder Dragon plot, Icebrood is the important act 2 into act 3 transition. This section is normally extremely dense as themes and motivations are made concrete. It is also where we traditionally see the hero gain and test new powers. It is also common for the false mentor to appear. A centaur plot could have provided Jormag with victims and made the Asuran plot unnecessary. The last 4 episodes could have been stuffed with lore and emotional content. I doubt Aurene's new powers would be fully clarified, but that is not a requirement or engaging writing. How Aurene explorers her powers will tell us about her. That is the point. 

Or not.

In season 4, the Commander dies defending Elder Dragons because active Elder Dragons are less of a threat to Tyria than the total destruction Tyria. In Icebrood, we kill 2 Elder Dragons because one of them says we can.

Or not.

Aurene's transformation is a blatant Deus ex bio-essentialism that can not be ignored. Her transformation can not be an un-fired Checkov's gun. It is a center stage explosion. The main cast must be aware of the implications. Rather than organically use a combination of show and tell, theatrics and exposition, the studio decided to stuff the center stage explosion into a mystery box. Maybe we would have seen the main cast admit they knew the potential existed. At the very least, we would have needed to see the main cast confirm the potential for success was high enough to take the risk. We could have sided with Jormag and staged a plan to kill Primordius, only to have the plan go wrong and both Dragons die. That would have forced the most dangerous plan on us while we only planned for the least dangerous. The motivations and expertise of the main cast would have been protected.

Writer's can't use the "balance of X" device without invoking the structure of the device. The balance of X device is quantifiable, that is the point of the device. The hard version of the device invokes the necessity of opposing symmetries: Light and Dark, Good and Evil, Hot and Cold, Life and Death, Ying and Yang. The soft version invokes the necessity of particular ingredients like Earth, Air, Water and Fire.  

The Elder dragon plot is based on the ancient theme and device combination of domesticating personifications of nature. I do not want to watch the product of that domestication be trapped in an opposing symmetry. I don't want to watch her give up her personification, which is a real possibility. The plot has made it clear that personification, the physiological vulnerability to mental illness, of Elder Dragons is the threat. I want Aurene to survive and find a family on her own terms. That could include a family in the All. However, an All family, the requirement for, or advantage provided by, multiple Elder Dragons does not conform to the balance of X device. I am not just being pedantic. The need for friends or family is not the same thing as the need for friends or family of a specific type.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Psientist.6437

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

18 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I would argue up and down against certain individuals' claim that IBS: Champions did indeed get all it wanted out and there would have been effectively nothing but two largely loreless maps and the centaur plot added if Champions had a full team working on it as four distinct episodes, and that EoD had ultimately ruined IBS' plot and Aurene's own character with how she does a sudden 180 after spending 3 parts of Champion worrying about the Balance before going "okay time to kill".

The maps wouldn't have been loreless, nor was Champions largely loreless.

Also, Aurene only does a 180 at the end because Braham had just seemingly sacrificed his entire existent to become Primordus' champion, as part of a play to bring both dragons down, and didn't want to make his sacrifice meaningless by not helping. Also, Jormag had proven itself completely insane, and utterly unwilling to eve TRY to be reasoned with, totally torpedoing Aurene's chances of bringing the situation to any other conclusion. They go over this in the plot.

5 hours ago, Psientist.6437 said:

In season 4, the Commander dies defending Elder Dragons because active Elder Dragons are less of a threat to Tyria than the total destruction Tyria. In Icebrood, we kill 2 Elder Dragons because one of them says we can.

Well no.

We die in Path of Fire because Balthazar was trying to kill Kralk, and we had nothing to restabalize the balance if Kralk died. in IBS we have something to replace Elder Dragons(Aurene) and only kill Primordus and Jormag because their invasion of central Tyria was getting worse, and if we didn't do it now they would have destroyed all life in the planet anyways. We literally had no other choice in the situation.

Context is for kings.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

20 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The maps wouldn't have been loreless, nor was Champions largely loreless.

The two maps we would have gotten would have been the Centuar Homelands, with Primordus' invasion, and Dragonstorm, where we kill the two dragons. And neither Arah story mode for Zhaitan, Dragon's Stand for Mordremoth, or Dragonfall for Kralk, had much in the way of new narrative developments.

 

 

 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The two maps we would have gotten would have been the Centuar Homelands, with Primordus' invasion, and Dragonstorm, where we kill the two dragons. And neither Arah story mode for Zhaitan, Dragon's Stand for Mordremoth, or Dragonfall for Kralk, had much in the way of new narrative developments.

Yes and? Wait..... are you confusing story with lore? Story =/= lore, and you can be story lite and not be lore lite. And the final battle map being story lite =/= the map before it in the Centaur Homelands being lore lite either.

I swear, you grasp and the weakest of straws, don't seem to want to actually read anything people write, and just love conflating random unrelated things together.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

38 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Yes and? Wait..... are you confusing story with lore? Story =/= lore, and you can be story lite and not be lore lite. And the final battle map being story lite =/= the map before it in the Centaur Homelands being lore lite either.

I swear, you grasp and the weakest of straws, don't seem to want to actually read anything people write, and just love conflating random unrelated things together.

The funny thing is that I just quoted you verbatim from when you were responding in a conversation about worldbuilding plot (aka lore) in the maps involved.

In other words, I did to you, exactly what you did to others.

 

But still, it's hilarious about how you complained about me following and always responding to you and conflating random unrelated things, when you're constantly responding to me first.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086