Specter: an already decent AoE Healer/support!

[Trianox.3486]

 

Adpt: Consume Shadows

Leaving Shadow Shroud consumes all remaining shadow force, healing nearby allies based on energy consumed. Allies that are fully healed receive the rest of the value in barrier.

 

Master, two choices:

Amplified Siphoning

Gain increased shadow force when hitting a foe with Siphon. Grant increased barrier when targeting an ally.

OR

Traversing Darkness

Heal allies in the area around you when you shadowstep. Gain shadow force for each ally in the radius. Wells grant alacrity on their initial impact.

 

Grandmaster: Shadesteps

Siphon now grants you barrier when targeting enemies and revives allies when targeting them. Shadowstepping breaks your barrier and grants it to nearby allies.

 

With the GM minor:

Gain barrier when you strike foes with a stealth attack. When you apply stealth to allies you also grant them barrier. This effect can only be received once and will reset when stealth is removed

 

Then, of course, you add SA Merciful Ambush (or Hidden Thief for stealth on Siphon) and Shadow Savior.

Interactions:
#1) Basically, Siphon on opponent followed by Stealth attack on ennemies pushes your barriers up, THEN you shadowstep

#2.a) the step in itself with Shadow Savior AND Traversing Darkness allows for relatively high heal, 

#2.b) the step in itself break your barrier and grant it/transfert it to allies

#3) Traversing Darkness allows up pump your Shadow Force if you land on your 3-4 allies, so then you go into Shadow Shourd, you can use 1-2 ability, then exit immediatly for a massive burst of healing again.

Add in a rune for healing or barrier, and that's even better.

Given all the short cooldown, you can rinse-repeat, WHILE doing condi-DPS, and of course you have your supporting Wells... and... yeah... pretty solid.

 

I ran open world with a bunch of random people, I was almost maxed out of Alacrity, and they were charged up with heal/barriers constantly... and I'd just target either the weaker/squishier of them or focus on the ennemies with some attacks... and it felt really good.
Numbers need to be run in a raid or fractal scenario to see if it still work decently. 

 

Conclusion?

Yep, Specter works totally good for 5 man support parties when traited correctly. I never ran into an initiative issues, but my DPS were not great given I was still trying to catch the Well rythm appropriately. My only issue is the Shadestep radius is 240 only, so you have to have people stacking... which really... is the WvW and high end PvE ways most of the time.

 

I "feel" numbers could be lower than some other classes in terms of support for 5 man parties? I'm not sure due to the limited testing, BUT the mobility, reactiveness and diversity of toolkit is actually quite solide, especially when you factor in the single target aspect to save one player, and the combination with Rot Wallow Venom.

 

In terms of utility, I'd ditch out one well to add blinding powder, or an actual venom, or shadow refuge, or something of the sort... I tried various combinations, and it felt a bit better than going full Wells.

 

Shadow Shroud do feel underwhelming on its own in the "supporting your tethered ally"... it's not that great... the "high impact" skills aren't that good, so you're not likely to do that many skills before jumping back out of shroud for the big Shadestep heal. So it does not feel optimal at all. Feels a bit like a wasted kit when used with Shadestep. But I adore the short cooldown, as it allows to quickly get back in if needed when you generate shadow force fast enough by being active enough...

 

I only wished with had an attribute set for:

Healing-Condi as major, and Expertise-Concentration minor, or Concentration-Vitality minor... and it would do wonder.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Trianox.3486

[Geoff Fey.1035]

When I was initially looking at the traits this kind of build is what came to mind. I'm glad to see it's taking effect in the actual game.

Also, remember that while your personal DPS may not be the greatest, with the sheer amount of barrier you're putting out, you're also giving 1 stack of Rot Wallow Venom every time you give allies barriers. In a condi-focused team that means you're essentially making every ally do increased condi-damage while you're also doing condi-healing.

The biggest issue is that either a) ANet will nerf the AoE capacity (they stated they went overboard with healing/barrier due to single target) or b) ANet will nerf the healing values themselves (to account for the AoE ability)

 

[Vidit.7108]

It's got some issues but I think you can pair it well with Healbrand or Quickbrand, even maybe a QuickScrapper. It's major flaw though keeping it from being the main high end fractal healer is no stability. There were a lot more close calls with it than I usually get on my healbrand though. Endless Night just doesn't provide great quickness upkeep in practice.

If they can fix the targeting problems on measured shot and some other skills it's got great potential.

[Trianox.3486]

27 minutes ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

The biggest issue is that either a) ANet will nerf the AoE capacity (they stated they went overboard with healing/barrier due to single target) or b) ANet will nerf the healing values themselves (to account for the AoE ability)

 

Yeah, this is my concern, it's really far from being overpowered whether you look at AoE or single target.

 

I'm all good tho if we have supreme 1-1 role, with a "decent" AoE role. 

 

 

27 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

It's got some issues but I think you can pair it well with Healbrand or Quickbrand, even maybe a QuickScrapper. It's major flaw though keeping it from being the main high end fractal healer is no stability. There were a lot more close calls with it than I usually get on my healbrand though. Endless Night just doesn't provide great quickness upkeep in practice.

If they can fix the targeting problems on measured shot and some other skills it's got great potential.

That's relevant experience, thank you!  I'm thinking that it's okay if it's not "TEH BEST", as long as it's close enough to other strong support, so that you actually have a choice based on personal (and or group) preferences when it gets to selecting your support.

A bit like when you choose your DPS for an encounter, there are 3-4 top choices, but also quite a few really decents one not too far behind. 

 

In terms of support, the fact a single build/class is 100% top for a given situation is fair, but not if other builds are at 70-50% the effectiveness behind. But I can take a 90%! 

I mean, there will always be optimal builds for very specific encounters, that's the nature of things... but other options should be somewhat viable, reliable and usable too by tweeking the playstyle.

I'm not a big fan of Druid, but it would be great of we had 1 top, and 3-4 viable support for each encounter, with then most other support lagging behind. But in reality, as of now, it's more like 1 top, and everything else underperform drastically. =/

 

Quite a few fixes yeah, and maybe some improvements too? Also wish Bountiful thief and such would work on Siphon to allies too...! 

[Sons.5493]

I made another post about it too, im glad ppl are realising that the aoe healing specter can provide is pretty good despite all the single target healing we have.

[Meridian.9103]

Let me shortly address the use of Support specter in WvW (large Scale):

WvW has a very defined meta, with each subgroup having exactly 2 supports: Firebrand and Scrapper. The firebrand providing insane defensive boon support with a bit of heal and cleanses, while the scrapper brings an insane amount of cleanses, good healing, some boons and important Utility (yes, scrapper support is broken, but that's not the point for now).

Specter in comparison brings mostly healing and barrier, a few , mostly offensive, boons and a bit of utility. So, who is it going to replace? You'll be either lacking cleanses or defensive boons in your subgroup, both ways will end up deadly.

On top of that, the single target mechanic is still part of Specter, using it is necessary to get the most out of that spec.

 

[Sons.5493]

2 minutes ago, Meridian.9103 said:

Let me shortly address the use of Support specter in WvW (large Scale):

WvW has a very defined meta, with each subgroup having exactly 2 supports: Firebrand and Scrapper. The firebrand providing insane defensive boon support with a bit of heal and cleanses, while the scrapper brings an insane amount of cleanses, good healing, some boons and important Utility (yes, scrapper support is broken, but that's not the point for now).

Specter in comparison brings mostly healing and barrier, a few , mostly offensive, boons and a bit of utility. So, who is it going to replace? You'll be either lacking cleanses or defensive boons in your subgroup, both ways will end up deadly.

On top of that, the single target mechanic is still part of Specter, using it is necessary to get the most out of that spec.

 

I think that's gonna be the real issue for specter, in wvw zerg fights it feels extremely underwhelming. I could see it working with the old meta where there was a very defined backline. That said last night I was roaming a doing some small scale fights and it was prolly the most fun I've had with thief since release, it was impactfull, it was fast paced and reactionary so I think ppl who enjoy those kinds of fights will really appreciate what specter brings to the table.

Maybe specter stacking on commander with a guardian for defensives and calling bombs with Mind Shock and the Elite, lots of cc.

Or backline ressbot, siphon with shape + shadow savior seems strong, i was able to pull some crazy reuses yesterday 

[Geoff Fey.1035]

2 hours ago, Trianox.3486 said:

Yeah, this is my concern, it's really far from being overpowered whether you look at AoE or single target.

Honestly they need to give a hard look at Firebrand before they look at nerfing Specter

[Lucinellia.9247]

It will be a workable support if the UI is made a little kinder for it and Endless Night priority is fixed.

 

The UI is very cumbersome. Having the target ally keybind target players instead of minis, clones etc would be a very positive step. I would also like to see the ability to move the raid frames to the side of the character model, so that the mouse doesn't need to be moved so much.

Currently, it doesn't work very well in raids for Quickness due to the limitations of Endless Night having proximity priority application. This needs to be fixed to prioritising players first. I think the amount of barrier and healing, and the amount of quickness and alacrity, will be fine with these changes given the difficulty maintaining other boons and the forced movement.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Posted this in the wrong thread. Please delete, mods.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Daegalus.8216]

I ran around for a while in WvW as specter, I did a very similar build and had great success. Mostly targeted our commander who was either a Scourge or a Guardian of some sort. Made them nearly unkillable if single target focused them, then spammed shadowsteps, and wells for condition and damage.

 

The default Apothecary set does higher barriers and heals, but the health is so low an squishy. Switching to Plague Doctor for PVP lowered my barrier numbers a tiny bit and my heals, but doubled my HP and survivability. Celestial might be a good one also.

 

I think in WvW we won't be "replacing" anything like firebrand or something, but we will be a hybrid that augments it.

 

Also not all groups run pure meta, there are a lot of smaller guilds and groups that let you run more things as long as you do your best and contribute and have good success with that. I think Specter will shine in smaller roaming groups of like 10-15 people, while in Zergs you will just spam shadowsteps and wells.

 

I was very successful, and I am nowhere near an expert or a great player. I am sure someone better than me will find an more optimized build that is even better than what I was running. I was also running Scepter/Pistol because I really liked the 3 ability for that combo. Never really used my other weapon set.

[Asum.4960]

To add my experience from some Fractals and CM's:

 

The good: 

It really felt like having a Support Scourge, Quickness Harbinger and Alac Chrono all in one spec. As long as people stacked tightly, it was pretty easy to keep everybody at 150% health (max health max barrier) permanently. Whenever anyone ate a lot of damage, coming back from split phases like at Siax etc., you can just dip in and out of Shroud and max heal/barrier everybody instantly again with Consume Shadows - which honestly I don't see how this Trait won't get nerfed. 

 

Otherwise, the constant Shadow stepping of Measured Shot and Wells is massive AoE healing through Traversing Dusk and Shadow Savior, and Endless Night massive AoE Barrier, even with fairly limited Healing Power investment (I ran Plaguedoctor Viper mix with Tormenting runes and Venom GM). 

Quickness upkeep is finnicky, but doable. Missing self-quickness didn't feel like a hinderance. 

Perma Alac, Fury, Swiftness, Regen, Vigor and some Might are easy ofc, and through Well of Bounty it also has decent Prot uptime. 

Pretty much the only thing missing is deliberate/timed Stab and Aegis, so pairing with a Quickbrand or even just cFB might be an option, but not mandatory. 

Shadow Steps+Shadow Portal/Xera Portal gives access to all the old support Chrono skips, speeding up general cleartimes.

 

The bad: 

First of all the Action Cam issues ofc for those that use it, it's pretty awful with Specter currently.

Continuing with bugs, the random teleport bug on Measured Shot, where rather than teleporting 900 range to the selected ally, it at times decides to seemingly teleport up to 1800 range in a completely random direction, including off cliffs, into lava, what have you. Slightly problematic.

The Shadow Step on Measured Shot, while important to trigger all the Traits (AoE healing, Shadow Force generation) is pretty annoying even when it doesn't random teleport bug, and makes it fairly annoying to line up the Quickness Beam follow up. I kind of wish it was a superficial short range or ground targeted shadow step instead, or frankly, if Scepter 2 was just wholly replaced by Measured Shot, with Endless Night just being the Sc/P Dual skill (with some nerf due to requiring half the Initiative to get to it), so they could be used independently. Across all builds, from solo play to DPS to Support, I've never seen a reason to use Shadow Sap anyway.

 

Now a peculiar problem I ran into that I didn't think about previously is that it's really awkward to track Breakbars and Boss Phase Threshholds while targeting and focusing on allies (as well as things like when you need to Rip boons via Bountiful Theft/Rending Shade for No Pain no Gain etc.). Especially since you obv don't run an Alacrenegade with it, CC is in short supply, and unless you know the fights really well, you'll have no idea when there's a Breakbar, etc. 

It's pretty clear the UI and gamesystems were not made with Ally Targeting in mind, and especially with Action Cam, even after the glaring bugs are fixed, it's going to be fairly challenging and extra keybind reliant to do so. 

A way to always have boss health bars on screen even when ally targeted, as well as robust ally targeting options (such as an ally priority Targeting mode for Action Cam) could go a long way. 

It might be worth considering to get rid of the ally targeting gimmick altogether and add an Fx flipover for the Support/Damage variants instead, with redesigned, small ground targeted, weaker but AoE's and beams for the support skills (a bit like Holy Strike/Grenades). 

While the direct targeting feels more personal as support, I'm not sure it's worth the hassle in a game clearly not designed for that. Either that, or they really have to lean into it with system and UI changes.

In conclusion:

If/when the glaring bugs are fixed, I can easily see this being a fantastic, if not overperforming, option for Solo Fractal support + 4 DPS. It won't carry as hard as a support duo like Alacren + Healbrand ofc, players do need to stack well and dodge CC's as well as provide some group Might and have more CC responsibility, but that aside it's incredibly solid (if clunky and skill intensive) and comes with both more Group DPS as well as vast Skipping access in capable hands.

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Asum.4960

[ledernierrempart.6871]

at least you can go right into the melee with a necrophage build (power, vita, condi and you can add some condi/toughness rune) since the shroud give you aoe stun, aoe fear with gap closer, aoe cleanse and aoe chill. + the 2 aoe attraction and daze wells which are, even if low range, nice ways to initiate a groupe fight.

despite the sceptre shortcoming in providing a good enough support/heal to replace scrapper or guard in WvW it will still have its place as an all in AOE CC role with some  heal with a low risk factor because of shadow step.
i can see scepters also be a thing in sPvP too since wells can do well (^^) for capture point zoning.

out of all the garbage and sub average spec they showed us, at least the new thief spec (and IMO the only decent spec so far) is decent and may require only some minor tweaks.

but the monotarget healing from the sceptre is not ideal. while other class can support AND attack at the same time the specter has to do either one or the other which is not ideal. a cool idea would have been piercing projectiles and beam that apply its effect on allies if they get hit (like druide staff healing beam) instead of having to monotarget like this.