Mesmer should have had Modal and Ground-Targeted Skills

[Swagg.9236]

Preface - By "modal," I mean to say:  "A skill that has two (or more) unique applications or outcomes depending on conditional circumstances in which it is used."

One of the reasons why a lot of mesmer weapons feel like they're unwieldy or lack impact is mainly because they either always require a target, or the design of a skill foremost (or solely) requires that it yield a clone somehow.  To this end, Mesmer, in many cases, is an EXTREMELY one-dimensional class.  It would be a lot more versatile, flexible and creative if it employed more modal and ground-targeted abilities which would not only allow the player to operate without necessarily selecting  a specific target, but also build resources (i.e. clones) and impact the field in a free-form and more unpredictable manner.  The tools for this sort of design paradigm already exist in the game:  mainly the ammo system and skills similar to Guardian's [Merciful Intervention].  In effect, many clone-based skills (or just skills in general), could do double-duty by not only gaining ammo counts but also providing the Mesmer with movement, support or misdirection options simply in how a skill is used with relation to the user or a potential target.

For instance, in the case of Merciful Intervention, it teleports the user only if there is a valid target within the reticle upon activation.  This sort of design could be employed for a lot of Mesmer skills by means of possibly summoning a clone to attack a target if there is one present within a ground-targeting reticle; and if there is no target, it might teleport the Mesmer or create some alternative effect at the area (or even at the Mesmer's position).  This could also be possibly applied to range values (i.e. one effect may trigger over another should the target reticle be within or outside of a defined range from the user).  This is a way to compress and combine effects into more flexible and interactive weapon bars (and even utilities) rather than letting a lot of current weapons languish.  To think about this sort of thing even further, it's possible to just turn phantasms into single-use summons that activate their ability and then maybe grant the Mesmer a short-duration, stackable bonus which just generate a clone on successful strike to an enemy (ala Thief venoms applying effects on hit).

All in all, Mesmer is pretty fun (certainly flavorful at least), but just needlessly clunky for no real reason (which means it eventually becomes desperately addicted to on-demand invulnerability or stealth triggers just to get anything done--which is also just a symptom of the meta in general).  If we really wanted a fluid, engaging and unique sort of combat experience, there's almost no other alternative than to create a lot of modal abilities for the class while ideally converting a lot of its target-dependent skills into ground-target, free-aim abilities.

[Swagg.9236]

Alright, so why wouldn't you want an Illusionary Leap that creates a clone only if there is a valid target (even if the target is stealthed) within a 180 radius, and would otherwise just teleport the user to the target location (while creating a clone at the user's initial location if the player had a selected target)?  That's an example of a modal mesmer skill.  Why would you prefer the way it works now?

[OriOri.8724]

14 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Alright, so why wouldn't you want an Illusionary Leap that creates a clone only if there is a valid target (even if the target is stealthed) within a 180 radius, and would otherwise just teleport the user to the target location (while creating a clone at the user's initial location if the player had a selected target)?  That's an example of a modal mesmer skill.  Why would you prefer the way it works now?

A target in stealth does not exist as far as your targeted skills care. This change would be pretty broken, as it would allow sw3 to tell you if an enemy in stealth is next to you or not, which defeats the purpose of stealth.

[Kondor.2904]

1 hour ago, OriOri.8724 said:

A target in stealth does not exist as far as your targeted skills care. This change would be pretty broken, as it would allow sw3 to tell you if an enemy in stealth is next to you or not, which defeats the purpose of stealth.

Not arguing in favor of changing the skill functionality, but there's already stuff in the game that not only  lets you know if the target is near you, but actually tracks their location, like mirage's axe. 

[Swagg.9236]

On 11/2/2021 at 3:53 PM, OriOri.8724 said:

A target in stealth does not exist as far as your targeted skills care. This change would be pretty broken, as it would allow sw3 to tell you if an enemy in stealth is next to you or not, which defeats the purpose of stealth.

If that's all you're worried about, then rest assured that there is no way that a mechanic acknowledging a target's presence within a specified area hardly affects a stealthed target.  This isn't TF2 where a shimmer would allow somebody to track a careless stealthed target; GW2 allows stealthed targets to more or less be as clumsy as they want without any real downside so long as they don't outright die (despite being completely invisible).  If nothing else, modal, ground-targeted skills only make the Mesmer more flexible by allowing them to exercise a semblance of agency with their build instead of just waiting for targets to pop up again (or defaulting to matching stealth with stealth while forcibly stalling out any sort of PvP interaction).  They hardly take away any agency from the guy who can be instantly invisible on demand.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Swagg.9236

[Levetty.1279]

On 11/2/2021 at 8:53 PM, OriOri.8724 said:

A target in stealth does not exist as far as your targeted skills care. This change would be pretty broken, as it would allow sw3 to tell you if an enemy in stealth is next to you or not, which defeats the purpose of stealth.

Good, literally every skill should do this.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Good, literally every skill should do this.

No, that's not good. The idea that you can use a skill WITHOUT executing that skill as a radar to detect INTENDLY stealthed people is absurd. I get it, stealth hate is strong ... but it's not a reason to allow such a thing to happen. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

49 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

but it's not a reason to allow such a thing to happen. 

Stealth exists.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Stealth exists.

Not sure what your point is ... I know stealth exists and it's INTENDED to exist. So again, the idea that you can use a skill WITHOUT executing that skill as a radar to detect INTENDLY stealthed people is absurd

[Levetty.1279]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Not sure what your point is ... I know stealth exists and it's INTENDED to exist. So again, the idea that you can use a skill WITHOUT executing that skill as a radar to detect INTENDLY stealthed people is absurd

No, literally every skill should do that.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

No, literally every skill should do that.

 Clearly, what you think SHOULD happen doesn't, so it's not very relevant to the discussion in the first place. What you think should or shouldn't do doesn't change the fact that the idea that you can use a skill WITHOUT executing that skill as a radar to detect INTENDLY stealthed people is absurd. I mean, I guess you don't know about skills that reveal? If you do, I guess you ignored those skills to make your claim of what should happen?

Again, stealth hate isn't a reason to do what you say should happen. 

As for modal vs. target skills ... hard to say how this would really work. As a concept, I guess it could but it would be difficult to implement to get the intended effects I would think. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Swagg.9236]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 Clearly, what you think SHOULD happen doesn't, so it's not very relevant to the discussion in the first place. What you think should or shouldn't do doesn't change the fact that the idea that you can use a skill WITHOUT executing that skill as a radar to detect INTENDLY stealthed people is absurd. I mean, I guess you don't know about skills that reveal? If you do, I guess you ignored those skills to make your claim of what should happen?

Again, stealth hate isn't a reason to do what you say should happen. 

As for modal vs. target skills ... hard to say how this would really work. As a concept, I guess it could but it would be difficult to implement to get the intended effects I would think. 

In the first place, the relationship between "forced reveal" skills and stealth is extremely contrived and parasitic.  Having a universal way to "soft" detect stealthed targets (i.e. reveal them without entirely breaking stealth instantaneously)--or at the very least allowing non-stealthed targets to have some agency and take independent actions against stealthed targets outside of just running away, guessing with defensive cooldowns, finding a no-teleport spot, or popping their own stealth--promotes much more engaging interaction between players.

All that aside, I'm not even proposing anything like that.  I'm straight up just laying out a format for skills to provide a predictable but flexible outcome for a user without necessarily requiring a selected target.  It'd be like hitting a stealthed target with an AoE pulse right now; there's no reason that said AoE pulse necessarily has to result (or would even consistently result) in the stealthed player's death.  If anything, it's often incredibly easy to negotiate field hazards while in stealth.

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

In the first place, the relationship between "forced reveal" skills and stealth is extremely contrived and parasitic.  Having a universal way to "soft" detect stealthed targets (i.e. reveal them without entirely breaking stealth instantaneously)--or at the very least allowing non-stealthed targets to have some agency and take independent actions against stealthed targets outside of just running away, guessing with defensive cooldowns, finding a no-teleport spot, or popping their own stealth--promotes much more engaging interaction between players.

Sure ... that's why there are reveal skills ... so again, the idea that poster had was absurd and clearly, irrelevant to your thread to begin with. 

Quote

All that aside, I'm not even proposing anything like that.  I'm straight up just laying out a format for skills to provide a predictable but flexible outcome for a user without necessarily requiring a selected target.  It'd be like hitting a stealthed target with an AoE pulse right now; there's no reason that said AoE pulse necessarily has to result (or would even consistently result) in the stealthed player's death.  If anything, it's often incredibly easy to negotiate field hazards while in stealth.

That's fair. I'm not against skills with dual intent, I just don't see it being easy to do or control for a player. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 Clearly, what you think SHOULD happen doesn't, so it's not very relevant to the discussion in the first place. What you think should or shouldn't do doesn't change the fact that the idea that you can use a skill WITHOUT executing that skill as a radar to detect INTENDLY stealthed people is absurd. I mean, I guess you don't know about skills that reveal? If you do, I guess you ignored those skills to make your claim of what should happen?

Again, stealth hate isn't a reason to do what you say should happen. 

As for modal vs. target skills ... hard to say how this would really work. As a concept, I guess it could but it would be difficult to implement to get the intended effects I would think. 

Yeah but on the other hand literally every skill should reveal stealth.

[Obtena.7952]

46 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Yeah but on the other hand literally every skill should reveal stealth.

No, that doesn't make sense. It's not the way it 'should be' it's just the way you want it to be. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that doesn't make sense. It's not the way it 'should be' it's just the way you want it to be. 

I agree, it should be like that.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

I agree, it should be like that.

So now you agree with me the game should be the way Anet makes it and the way you imagine it is irrelevant? OK ... not sure what you were disagreeing with me earlier then. 

Again, the skills that reveal stealth ... are reveal skills, so no, not every skill should do that ... the reveal skills do that. The idea we have non-reveal skills as a way to reveal stealth players is absurd. I mean, if some of the skills can be dual mode and one mode reveal, sure, that's OK. I don't see a problem with that. I don't think it's particularly easy to wield the kinds of skills the OP is proposing, but it could happen. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So now you agree with me the game should be the way Anet makes it and the way you imagine it is irrelevant? OK ... not sure what you were disagreeing with me earlier then. 

Again, the skills that reveal stealth ... are reveal skills, so no, not every skill should do that ... the reveal skills do that. The idea we have non-reveal skills as a way to reveal stealth players is absurd. I mean, if some of the skills can be dual mode and one mode reveal, sure, that's OK. I don't see a problem with that. I don't think it's particularly easy to wield the kinds of skills the OP is proposing, but it could happen. 

Yes every skill in the game should reveal stealth, glad we both agree.

[Obtena.7952]

22 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Yes every skill in the game should reveal stealth, glad we both agree.

No, I NEVER agreed with that. At this point, you are just being dishonest as I have been very clear about my position on that. Don't tell me things I clearly never said. 

Again, if you want more stealth reveal skills, I don't see why such a think can't be incorporated into this modal skill idea with actual reveal skills but to be clear, I am NOT advocating that every skill in the game should reveal stealth and clearly, Anet doesn't believe that either, considering they went out of there way to create specific skills to reveal. I believe revealing stealth on every skill in the game is some of the most ridiculous and poorly thought out idea I've ever heard in fact. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Swagg.9236]

On 11/8/2021 at 6:55 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... that's why there are reveal skills ... so again, the idea that poster had was absurd and clearly, irrelevant to your thread to begin with. 

That's fair. I'm not against skills with dual intent, I just don't see it being easy to do or control for a player. 

The problem with reveal skills is that they are not universally distributed and available without excessive opportunity cost.  There is no natural way to combat stealth, and it is entirely possible to hard counter a player with stealth in a manner that provides that player with effectively zero recourse.  That's not fair or skillful; it boils down to rock-paper-scissors at that point.

And it should not be difficult whatsoever for the average human being to grasp the idea of an ability generating a conditional outcome based on where or over which target it is utilized.  Something like "get Effect A if your reticle is within 600 units of you; Effect B if reticle is beyond 600 units from you" MIGHT--MAYBE--POSSIBLY COULD BE a LITTLE bit confounding to read, but it would take very little experimentation to realize what the potential results and possibilities of using such a skill could be.  The key is more in natural use of the skill rather than excessive text detail.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Swagg.9236

[Jables.4659]

I'm a fan of ground-targeted abilities when they are used sparingly on a particular class and a lot of thought is put into which skills are ground-targeted.  Sword 3 and Staff 2 are perhaps the only Mesmer abilities that wouldn't be made explicitly worse by becoming ground-targeted.   Chronomancer shield 5 is the perfect example of a random skill becoming ground targeted for no reason at all.  Prior to the change, you looked in the direction you wanted to send the shield and you sent it with the click of a button.  Now, you have to point your mouse cursor in the direction you want to send the shield, but if your character isn't looking in that direction, the skill fails and goes on a 4 second CD.  If you can only cast it in the direction your character is facing and it has a preset motion and range, why the kitten did they go out of their way to make that pointless change?  Its not as bad as the new Arcane Thievery, but holy kitten, who is signing off on this stuff?

In response to the OPs comment about Mesmer skills always requiring a target or needing to create a clone, I'd like to point out that there are only 2 non-phantasm Core Mesmer skills that require a target to activate.

The skills are Sword-3 and... Arcane Thievery.  

GS-1, Sc-3, and the counter attack on Sw-4 and Sc-2 are all direct-to-target but can still be activated without one (Trident 2 and 5 are the same IIRC).

 

Edit: I forgot about Mirror Images.  It needs a target.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Jables.4659

[Obtena.7952]

On 11/10/2021 at 10:40 PM, Swagg.9236 said:

The problem with reveal skills is that they are not universally distributed and available without excessive opportunity cost.  There is no natural way to combat stealth, and it is entirely possible to hard counter a player with stealth in a manner that provides that player with effectively zero recourse.  That's not fair or skillful; it boils down to rock-paper-scissors at that point.

I agree ... but that's no reason for ANYONE to advocate ALL skills should reveal players. That's just absurd. That's just stealth hate and there isn't a reason for it because stealth isn't going away and no one is stupid enough to think that's a reasonable suggestion in this game where stealth is an intended state. 

Quote

And it should not be difficult whatsoever for the average human being to grasp the idea of an ability generating a conditional outcome based on where or over which target it is utilized.  Something like "get Effect A if your reticle is within 600 units of you; Effect B if reticle is beyond 600 units from you" MIGHT--MAYBE--POSSIBLY COULD BE a LITTLE bit confounding to read, but it would take very little experimentation to realize what the potential results and possibilities of using such a skill could be.  The key is more in natural use of the skill rather than excessive text detail.

Again, agreed. I don't see a problem with 'dual model' skills except on the player management side. If some of those skills have 'reveal' on them, I also don't have a problem with that. In fact, we have some skills (Mesmer GS Auto) that kind of do that ... I don't have a problem with seeing more of these things. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Swagg.9236]

On 11/12/2021 at 12:22 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

I agree ... but that's no reason for ANYONE to advocate ALL skills should reveal players. That's just absurd. That's just stealth hate and there isn't a reason for it because stealth isn't going away and no one is stupid enough to think that's a reasonable suggestion in this game where stealth is an intended state. 

Again, agreed. I don't see a problem with 'dual model' skills except on the player management side. If some of those skills have 'reveal' on them, I also don't have a problem with that. In fact, we have some skills (Mesmer GS Auto) that kind of do that ... I don't have a problem with seeing more of these things. 

Stealth's main problem is that it definitely serves a more flavor-over-function """role""" in GW2, and it constantly clashes with the natural state of most other gameplay by putting everything into a very polarizing, binary gamestate:  generally one of "Oh, I guess I have to guess what to do now because my target is now invisible and can attack at will" or "My target has gone invisible; I must now go invisible too because it basically lets me stall out longer until my best cooldowns come back."  That's not engaging or interesting gameplay; it's literally a flowchart mentality, and it only works if both participants have access to skills that generate or interaction with stealth.  However, because the only way to consistently interact with stealth is to just outright remove it, the whole dynamic revolving around stealth itself means that you're left with a rock-paper-scissors dilemma rather than anything remotely resembling creative player thinking and agency.  tl;dr:  Stealth is bad because it restricts what players can do, and it doesn't mesh with 95% of GW2's gameplay--which is why we have "this button removes stealth" skills rather than player-utilized techniques to soft-counter stealth on the fly.  Moreover, I NEVER said that all skills should outright reveal players; stop putting words in people's mouths.

With respect to the "player management side" of what you call "dual model" (just use the word "modal") skills, like I've already said, there SHOULDN'T BE an issue.  It's literally just a natural learning curve of using the skill and getting a feel for distances within the game itself.  You shouldn't be afraid of a skill model just because the model isn't built entirely on tooltips spoonfeeding a user every exact element of a skill's potential interactivity with enemies or the environment.  Less is more.

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Stealth's main problem is that it definitely serves a more flavor-over-function """role""" in GW2, and it constantly clashes with the natural state of most other gameplay by putting everything into a very polarizing, binary gamestate:  generally one of "Oh, I guess I have to guess what to do now because my target is now invisible and can attack at will" or "My target has gone invisible; I must now go invisible too because it basically lets me stall out longer until my best cooldowns come back."  That's not engaging or interesting gameplay; it's literally a flowchart mentality, and it only works if both participants have access to skills that generate or interaction with stealth.  However, because the only way to consistently interact with stealth is to just outright remove it, the whole dynamic revolving around stealth itself means that you're left with a rock-paper-scissors dilemma rather than anything remotely resembling creative player thinking and agency.  tl;dr:  Stealth is bad because it restricts what players can do, and it doesn't mesh with 95% of GW2's gameplay--which is why we have "this button removes stealth" skills rather than player-utilized techniques to soft-counter stealth on the fly.  Moreover, I NEVER said that all skills should outright reveal players; stop putting words in people's mouths.

With respect to the "player management side" of what you call "dual model" (just use the word "modal") skills, like I've already said, there SHOULDN'T BE an issue.  It's literally just a natural learning curve of using the skill and getting a feel for distances within the game itself.  You shouldn't be afraid of a skill model just because the model isn't built entirely on tooltips spoonfeeding a user every exact element of a skill's potential interactivity with enemies or the environment.  Less is more.

Stealth is a fun mechanic when its short, problem starts when you have kitten-fest like thief being able to maintain 100% stealth uptime and constantly re-stealthing or wvw joke of 50man invisible army clashes.
Mesmer stealth from both torch and SoM is cool to both combat and use. ( kitten chaos stealth extension ) 
IMO blasting smoke fields should not stealth, or at the very least, stack to 6s MAX
Or maybe introduce hard cap, no class can maintain stealth for longer then 9s.
Deadeye as a class would have a build in mechanic to extend it slightly.
 

[Swagg.9236]

2 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Stealth is a fun mechanic when its short, problem starts when you have kitten-fest like thief being able to maintain 100% stealth uptime and constantly re-stealthing or wvw joke of 50man invisible army clashes.
Mesmer stealth from both torch and SoM is cool to both combat and use. ( kitten chaos stealth extension ) 
IMO blasting smoke fields should not stealth, or at the very least, stack to 6s MAX
Or maybe introduce hard cap, no class can maintain stealth for longer then 9s.
Deadeye as a class would have a build in mechanic to extend it slightly.
 

The fundamental issue with stealth, is that it is, in no part, a true aspect of any sort of holistic gameplay dynamic; at its core, nothing more a stalling mechanic.  For instance, taking stealth out of the Mesmer off-hand torch would not at all affect how that skill's gameplay loop ultimately resolves:  you'll still have to get in close to a target and then follow nearby so that The Prestige can yield the best results.  At the end of the day, stealth is just there for flavor.  Same thing for Thief in most cases:  Thief's general strategies and attack patterns wouldn't drastically change if it suddenly didn't have stealth tomorrow (it would probably just be less effective overall).  In fact, there was a very long period during which Thieves often went without a lot (or any) stealth because they would just make up for it by evading and teleporting each time they would engage a target (sword/X was a huge meta for a while prior to HoT).

Whether or not you realize it, "fun" is not the word when describing "short-duration" stealth, but rather "tolerable."  People will "tolerate" stealth if its under 3s or so--but it is certainly not fun, mainly because stealth still instantly, with effectively no effort, puts the ball in the court of the stealth-user.  It's a protracted break-target mechanic that is often paired with teleports or evasion; there is no true soft-counter technique for that except randomly guessing with cooldown baits and random dodges (which are EXTREMELY punishing if the opponent wiffs while the stealth-user just has to continue to play passively without any input).

While I agree that, obviously, the most egregious abuse of stealth is within the scope of extremely prolonged stealth and mass stealth, nobody, at the end of the day, is going to truly say that stealth is universally fun.  Either the user is having fun because the user is in effective total control of the situation, or the opponent is able to grit their teeth without gashing their jaw to pieces because the stealth doesn't last so long that it either burns out the opponent's entire defensive rotation or allows the stealth-user to literally walk across the entire map before becoming visible again.  It's an extremely one-sided mechanic.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Swagg.9236