For the team to think about since WvW will be getting updates.

[Swagger.1459]

Ranger, and any of its build and weapon options, are not ideal for wvw play outside of roaming solo or in small groups. There are way better options to contribute to any larger scale scenarios. 
 

Now, anyone who has followed the forums for years will see the complaints about Ranger being less useful. This has been going on since launch. We’ve had thousands of threads asking to make improvements in these areas, but nothing. 

 

2015 HoT brought Druid and Staff. It’s subpar for larger scale play. Druid is still a clunky design overall. Weapon is useless for larger scale play. There are better profession options for larger scale play than Druid.

 

2017 PoF brought Soulbeast and a Dagger. Nobody uses a dagger in wvw, it’s useless in that environment. Soulbeasts have become the roaming LB pew pew class, that’s about it. It was supposed to be a hybrid build, but most use it for power builds. 

2022 EoD will, yet again, bring another spec and weapon less desirable for any large scale play. There are also way better options for roaming builds. 

 

So, 10 years later, and now that WvW will get some updates, nothing will change. We will still have a subpar set for larger scale play. Untamed looks like it won’t be anything except another pve build.

 

I’m not sure how to say this without being disrespectful, but it doesn’t seem like anyone has had their finger on the pulse of the Ranger community. I mean, the team heard the calls for an AoE hammer build, but that’s it. Nothing else. Thousands of threads, some even official anet threads as well, over the past 10 years begging and asking for improvements to pets and pet issues, various weapons, build types… Nothing much came of those honestly and we all know it.

 

Having said all of that, this new Untamed spec could be a turning point for the team and for players. However, that’s going to mean thinking outside of the pve box that this class has been in for a decade. 
 

Thanks for reading! 

 

Edit- Let me bring up a realistic question… Why would I want to play an Untamed front line hammer spec and eat all the incoming damage, when I could instead play a Rev hammer build from the safety of mid to back line and pump out more AoE damage while passively buffing my teammates with Facets?
 

Don’t forget, Rev will also have higher damage coefficients, not have to invest traits into a pet that’s useless for large scale play, and will definitely have a niche where their contributions are meaningful. And a squad having to choose a spot on the team between an Untamed hammer player and Rev hammer player is a no brainer. Rev in this case wins hand down because it offers more survivability, more damage, and more team buffs. What does the Untamed really offer? 
 

And we can compare and contrast all sorts of other profession builds and weapons against anything the Ranger offers, and the Ranger will always fall short. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Swagger.1459

[anduriell.6280]

16 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Ranger, and any of its build and weapon options, are not ideal for wvw play outside of roaming solo or in small groups. There are way better options to contribute to any larger scale scenarios. 

I wholeheartely resonate with your post. Just an small correction. 

Soulblast is only good for solo roaming or +1 surprise pewpew attack. It does bring nothing of consecuence for the team.  Druid does not work period. Core same. 

The rest is spot on. The general desing for the untamed in another subpar PvE spec for botting in openworld. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

What even is this topic 😂.

Just some protips...dagger stacks quickness and makes for a nightmare cele roamer, druid brings immob / kiting out the rear, and soulbeast in general is very dangerous if they know how to use more than #2 on the LB.

Untamed design is unfortunate but who knows where it lands when the nuke all the PoF specs in about a month or so here.  

[Beddo.1907]

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Just some protips...dagger stacks quickness and makes for a nightmare cele roamer,

Bold of you to assume you can catch up to anyone with dagger.

[ZeroSkitzo.5403]

I don’t disagree but not all classes can play all game modes at the highest level. 
My biggest question is how could anet make ranger viable in zerg play when the biggest issue is the ai dying/how would you build a zerg spec? That’s basically where SLB comes in with merging and being able to res pet that way. 

[Shagie.7612]

4 hours ago, ZeroSkitzo.5403 said:

I don’t disagree but not all classes can play all game modes at the highest level. 

Of course, but Untamed is quite literally meant to be the remedy to that problem for this class.

It has not met that goal. What then, has it really accomplished in terms of new things for ranger?

[ZeroSkitzo.5403]

5 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Of course, but Untamed is quite literally meant to be the remedy to that problem for this class.

It has not met that goal. What then, has it really accomplished in terms of new things for ranger?

Maybe in anets mind, it’s met the goal as best they could get to the goal. I know you’re not OP and maybe he’s done this but rather than complain and compare to other classes, why not provide potential solutions/ideas to get untamed closer to zerg friendly?

[Beddo.1907]

18 minutes ago, ZeroSkitzo.5403 said:

why not provide potential solutions/ideas to get untamed closer to zerg friendly?

Because it would lead to a whole ranger class rework since it has has 3 issues:

1. You lose a lot of raw stats in return for pet doing some work and since pet melts in zerg that's just pure stat and trait value loss (even if it doesn't it leads to point 2).

2. Pet takes boons and healing that other players need way more (there was something about stealth but I can't remember it rn)

3. Ranger as is doesn't have much team support that's useful in pvp/wvw content. Even druid which is a support class isn't good at it which says a lot.

[anduriell.6280]

20 hours ago, ZeroSkitzo.5403 said:

Maybe in anets mind, it’s met the goal as best they could get to the goal. I know you’re not OP and maybe he’s done this but rather than complain and compare to other classes, why not provide potential solutions/ideas to get untamed closer to zerg friendly?

Anet has plenty of feedback, from some small tweaks to full on reworks. Ranger subforums has always had  plenty of those, just have a quick glance in the first 3 pages. 

None of it (well not none but very few suggestions like reducing barrage CD from 30s to 20s) has been taken into account. All the times they listened and were able to implement it has been the best changes for ranger they have done so far. Sadly that is a very rare occurence. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Lazze.9870]

On 12/9/2021 at 4:03 PM, Swagger.1459 said:

2015 HoT brought Druid and Staff. It’s subpar for larger scale play. Druid is still a clunky design overall. Weapon is useless for larger scale play. There are better profession options for larger scale play than Druid.

 

Not really, except from the second skill being pure trash. If druid was better built in other areas, the staff in its current iteration would be fine.

 

On 12/9/2021 at 4:03 PM, Swagger.1459 said:

2017 PoF brought Soulbeast and a Dagger. Nobody uses a dagger in wvw, it’s useless in that environment. Soulbeasts have become the roaming LB pew pew class, that’s about it. It was supposed to be a hybrid build, but most use it for power builds. 

 

Soulbeast would have been fine with a good weapon. Dagger obviously didn't fix that. It works as a hybrid, not sure why that's even something to bring up as power is king in large scale.

 

On 12/9/2021 at 4:03 PM, Swagger.1459 said:

2022 EoD will, yet again, bring another spec and weapon less desirable for any large scale play. There are also way better options for roaming builds. 

 

As with druid, the weapon isn't the problem. Hammer is pretty decent, the mechanic is the problem because we're back to using the hopeless pet again (more useful than core, way worse than permamerged soulbeast).

[anduriell.6280]

13 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

As with druid, the weapon isn't the problem. Hammer is pretty decent, the mechanic is the problem because we're back to using the hopeless pet again (more useful than core, way worse than permamerged soulbeast).

I agree the pet and how the mehcanic is implement is very unfortunate, but the dual aspect hammer is a total miss on how it is implemented. 

One side deal all the CC while the other need the CC to deal the damage. The skills are the same but the cooldown is shared. Whoever thought this was a good a idea do not play with the class at all or hate the ranger class. 

[OGDeadHead.8326]

4 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

One side deal all the CC while the other need the CC to deal the damage. The skills are the same but the cooldown is shared. Whoever thought this was a good a idea do not play with the class at all or hate the ranger class. 

Yeah, again completly missing the mark, and synergy goes out the window. This is the spec that is in conflict with itself.

[Lazze.9870]

7 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

but the dual aspect hammer is a total miss on how it is implemented. 

 

It's implemented badly, but they're on to something in terms of what it is supposed to do and it's still a decent weapon in its current form for the wvw format. Unlike the dagger, this is a weapon Anet likely wants to see perform well outside of PvE (or one can hope, it should be). The reason Untamed fails in wvw is almost entirely on the dumb pet holding this class back yet again.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 12/10/2021 at 7:28 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

Bold of you to assume you can catch up to anyone with dagger.

 

Not really an assumption, I do it all the time.  There is more to WvW than spamming rapid fire from 1200 lol

[Beddo.1907]

44 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Not really an assumption, I do it all the time.  There is more to WvW than spamming rapid fire from 1200 lol

There is also more things to kill than npcs.

I'd like you to enlighten me how do you manage to keep up with classes that use range.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

There is also more things to kill than npcs.

I'd like you to enlighten me how do you manage to keep up with classes that use range.

 

Stealth? We also have a second weapon set available so it's pretty easy to outrange anyone aside from other rangers...

 

So can either run something like dagger / WH and LB, or if you don't want LB then run axe / WH + dagger / dagger (or torch if you want to try hybrid condi).  You could also slot in GS to have a block and even more gap closing abilities.  Doing any of these also makes you super tanky because just take NM and you have every boon (+perma quickness due to dagger).  

 

Only downside to dagger is the condi split is pretty useless, as even in cele build you are going to want the power scaling off it.  But, it's nowhere near unusable.  

[Beddo.1907]

1 minute ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

But, it's nowhere near unusable.  

Well obviously it not unusable, but it's not a very good pick.

Power/condi split aside, there is low utility in it and the dash while you have 2 charges it's only 400 range with a bit too long cd.

While you might like it, I personally think it's underperforming in comparison to alternatives. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Well obviously it not unusable, but it's not a very good pick.

Power/condi split aside, there is low utility in it and the dash while you have 2 charges it's only 400 range with a bit too long cd.

While you might like it, I personally think it's underperforming in comparison to alternatives. 

 

Underperforming I can agree with, it's just the OP's 'useless' quantifier got to me.  Dagger and MH Sword both need some sort of attention to compete with GS IMO.  

[Shagie.7612]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Dagger and MH Sword both need some sort of attention to compete with GS IMO.  

It's kinda crazy that Dagger 3 isn't an evade for that very reason, honestly.

Maybe they thought that would feel too similar to sword or something.

[latlat.4516]

Tl;dr; I mostly agree with the fact that ranger needs a big rework for the untamed to become meta in WvW large squads. Soulbeast will also remain the better option for solo/duo roaming. However, I can def. see play for the e-spec in 5-15 players groups.

 

I agree with the "sentiment" of the post.

BUT

On 12/9/2021 at 4:03 PM, Swagger.1459 said:

weapon less desirable for any large scale play.

the hammer as it is designed with the untamed is actually the best weapon for large scale play available for the ranger. It's less dangerous to use than the off hand axe, and is more cleaving than the greatsword.

 

On 12/9/2021 at 4:03 PM, Swagger.1459 said:

There are also way better options for roaming builds. 

Indeed there are, but the untamed brings the corruption gameplay to the ranger, which is king for 5+ group roaming, where the SB starts to lose in performence. 

 

On 12/9/2021 at 4:03 PM, Swagger.1459 said:

Why would I want to play an Untamed front line hammer spec and eat all the incoming damage, when I could instead play a Rev hammer build from the safety of mid to back line and pump out more AoE damage while passively buffing my teammates with Facets?

The role of rev's hammer and the ranger's are not the same at all. The build you should be comparing the untamed to is the spellbreaker. The untamed actually brings more cc than the damage version (while needing less external condi cleanse support) and more damage than the support version.

 

But if we're talking about power coefficients with the rev, you're comparing a 1k2 auto-attack with a 0.6 coefficient with a melee attack chain with a 0.8/1/1.2/1.7(for the ambush,). The rev h2 and h3 have 1.15 and 1.2 coefficients while the damage versions on the untamed for the same skills are 1.25 and 0.3+1.3. 

If you are comparing things that are actually comparable (so, with the spellbreaker) : 

You can build your spellbreaker with either power (so marauder/berserker) or minstrel. The weapons to be considered into account are the MH sword, the OH axe and the greatsword for damage and the hammer/horn for cc and support.

I didn't have arcdps installed during the beta so I couldn't accurately measure the strip speed of the ranger, but I guess it's more constent and less bursty than the warrior's. Also, there's the possibilty to use these strips from a distance (up to 1k5) if you're timing your projectiles off the blocks and the reflect. At this role, the only advantage of the SpBr is to bring the winds of disenchantment - but let's be honest, this skills will always justify one in your squad. Other than that overwhelming advantage for the spellbreaker, choosing one class over the other is a matter of preference of the commander

I won't go much into details as for why you could choose an untamed over a spellbreaker, but it mainly amounts to the fact that you don't need to choose between cc and damage and can actually bring both at the same time. 

On 12/9/2021 at 4:03 PM, Swagger.1459 said:

And we can compare and contrast all sorts of other profession builds and weapons against anything the Ranger offers, and the Ranger will always fall short. 

This is the real problem of the untamed. The core class has great (near godlike) options for self-sustain but brings nearly nothing to the table for a squad except barely viable damage and immobs. The pet is not that interesting seeing how fast it dies (well, at least unleashed abilities didn't seem to go away with a death pet, and it seems unleashing the pet resurects it). The only force of the untamed is that it can now bring a little bit of every offensive role in a squad without many compromises.

[Beddo.1907]

5 minutes ago, latlat.4516 said:

the hammer as it is designed with the untamed is actually the best weapon for large scale play available for the ranger. It's less dangerous to use than the off hand axe, and is more cleaving than the greatsword.

But it doesn't do off hand axe damage burst and better cleave than greatsword is not enough to make it overall better choice (praise busted maul damage).

10 minutes ago, latlat.4516 said:

Indeed there are, but the untamed brings the corruption gameplay to the ranger, which is king for 5+ group roaming, where the SB starts to lose in performence. 

If you want corruption in team you would still take Necro over Ranger. (Even more so with the current pet unleash skill AI)

18 minutes ago, latlat.4516 said:

This is the real problem of the untamed. The core class has great (near godlike) options for self-sustain but brings nearly nothing to the table for a squad except barely viable damage and immobs.

True.

19 minutes ago, latlat.4516 said:

The pet is not that interesting seeing how fast it dies (well, at least unleashed abilities didn't seem to go away with a death pet, and it seems unleashing the pet resurects it).

I don't remember unleashed skills working on dead pet or revive on unleash.

20 minutes ago, latlat.4516 said:

The only force of the untamed is that it can now bring a little bit of every offensive role in a squad without many compromises.

Yes "a little bit" and doing everything but not great is not better than doing 1-2 thing good. In the end you bring in the pet that eats boons, heals and other effects that squad needs and then dies.  And ever while dead it's a downside since your squad can't do stealth plays and you lose a lot of stats.

I'm afraid Ranger will never be good in WvW outside of roaming since the whole class is selfish and Druid is more or less in it's final form.