Should we constantly request for classes to get nerfed?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Morwath.9817 said:

For me personaly, balance Anet should pursue, would be, where each class is viable in top levels of play and those classes can have builds viable in multiple roles. Like in GW1, you could really bring various setups and hillarious thing is, there was more guilds competing in GvG ladder back then, when GW1 had probably less than 1/10 of GW2 population than during e-sportz GW2 times.

 

I agree mostly...except the only issue is how does one understand "viability" in a game where all it's components are relative to one another. It's easy to say this kind of statement but it's not something that's possible to do in practice.

 

Again it's the same dilemma as asking how to balance Game of Life...how would you get these different configurations to do the similar "more balanced" behavior....how do you even do that really? There's not even a notion of numbers there to adjust... So it's not possible...not with nerfs or buffs or in any traditional way of thinking about game balance.

 

There is only one way and that's through touching game complexity. GW1 has more game complexity then GW2 and it's obvious to understand why that is the case. Many of this skills in gw1 interacted with many of the other skills in gw1 in many different and complicated ways. Gw2 simply does not have the same level of complexity. One such example of this complexity in GW1 is the HA Contagion Bomb. One could write a paper on how fascinating this comp was and how it behaved and looked like a cellular automaton or an ameoba. We simply do not have anywhere near this kind of dynamics in gw2...and it's honestly not hard to see why...things do not interact meaningfully with each other enough for it to happen.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Morwath.9817]

32 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

I agree mostly...except the only issue is how does one understand "viability" in a game where all it's components are relative to one another. It's easy to say this kind of statement but it's not something that's possible to do in practice.

 

Again it's the same dilemma as asking how to balance Game of Life...how would you get these different configurations to do the similar "more balanced" behavior....how do you even do that really? There's not even a notion of numbers there to adjust... So it's not possible...not with nerfs or buffs or in any traditional way of thinking about game balance.

 

There is only one way and that's through touching game complexity. GW1 has more game complexity then GW2 and it's obvious to understand why that is the case. Many of this skills in gw1 interacted with many of the other skills in gw1 in many different and complicated ways. Gw2 simply does not have the same level of complexity. One such example of this complexity in GW1 is the HA Contagion Bomb. One could write a paper on how fascinating this comp was and how it behaved and looked like a cellular automaton or an ameoba. We simply do not have anywhere near this kind of dynamics in gw2...and it's honestly not hard to see why...things do not interact meaningfully with each other enough for it to happen.

 

 

I agree. GW1 was more complex, as skills were not only more unique, but players had more viable choices. Often I feel like utility skills in GW2 are completly unbalalnced, where you got few viable choices, where rest if on trash level.

Also, Elites in GW2 are poorly designed and deserve reworks, as they don't open new builds themselves.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

21 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

I agree. GW1 was more complex, as skills were not only more unique, but players had more viable choices. Often I feel like utility skills in GW2 are completly unbalalnced, where you got few viable choices, where rest if on trash level.

Also, Elites in GW2 are poorly designed and deserve reworks, as they don't open new builds themselves.

 

Yep. Utilities, Elites, Weapons and Traits tbh...this is what should have been worked on over the past two years...reworks to mechanics to make these crappy skills meaningfully interact with other skills...in the same way that the config 2 automaton interacts meaningfully to produce complex behavior...instead we spent two years doing the opposite: Removing things, and nerfing things to the point where they can't meaningfully interact with anything. This is why I argue that balance hasn't gotten better, but got worse.

Edited December 26, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[FarmBotXD.1430]

4 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Ya, Totally agree. Especially about the waste of time part...it feels like CMC was robbed of 2 years of his life, by being given a task that's impossible to do, and then takes all the blame for not being able to do it. Likewise, we've all been robbed of builds, time, enjoyment and so on...and like you said, the punchline: It feels like a strange...absurd form of collective stupidity that lead us here to this point.

 

Idk thinking about it too much just makes me depressed and pretty sad...like there's no hope or something so I'm just gonna stop thinking about it. Just pray people eventually catch on.

lol what a drama queen.
CMC had a job, got paid for it, and kittened it up. 
It happens, time to move on with our lives man.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 hours ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

lol what a drama queen.
CMC had a job, got paid for it, and kittened it up. 
It happens, time to move on with our lives man.

 

alright sure if it's so easy then you go do it then.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

alright sure if it's so easy then you go do it then.

congrats on 2137 posts
also, amazing rebuttal, undefeatable argument 😄
imagine if everyone everywhere would say " well do it yourself " after kittening up.
go buy a strawberry flavoured milk but it tastes like banana? tough kitten, do it yourself then mate.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Just now, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

also, amazing rebuttal, undefeatable argument 😄
imagine if everyone everywhere would say " well do it yourself " after kittening up.

go buy a strawberry flavoured milk but it tastes like banana? tough kitten, do it yourself then mate.

 

Yea and balancing a game is not equivalent to making a strawberry flavored milkshake. That's the issue with folks like you that think it's so easy...

 

If you think its so easy go and balance the game ...if it's as easy as you say it is then you have the right to say whatever you want about cmc that he "just kittened up"...until then, I'll wait here just sippin' tea.

 

Imagine telling Elon Musk that going to Mars is so easy bro just build a rocket it go vrooom vrooom and if he dies it's cause he's stupid amiright?

[Axl.8924]

10 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Yep. Utilities, Elites, Weapons and Traits tbh...this is what should have been worked on over the past two years...reworks to mechanics to make these crappy skills meaningfully interact with other skills...in the same way that the config 2 automaton interacts meaningfully to produce complex behavior...instead we spent two years doing the opposite: Removing things, and nerfing things to the point where they can't meaningfully interact with anything. This is why I argue that balance hasn't gotten better, but got worse.

 

My issue is Sometimes ANET doesn't know what to do and starts messing with stuff that aren't the problem and leads to more problems when trying to fix stuff, leading to even more broken stuff that doesn't work properly.

[greedywholesome.9081]

23 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

My issue is Sometimes ANET doesn't know what to do and starts messing with stuff that aren't the problem and leads to more problems when trying to fix stuff, leading to even more broken stuff that doesn't work properly.

 

Yup, my thoughts exactly especially now that one person is in charge of the whole operation.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

12 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Yea and balancing a game is not equivalent to making a strawberry flavored milkshake. That's the issue with folks like you that think it's so easy...

 

If you think its so easy go and balance the game ...if it's as easy as you say it is then you have the right to say whatever you want about cmc that he "just kittened up"...until then, I'll wait here just sippin' tea.

 

Imagine telling Elon Musk that going to Mars is so easy bro just build a rocket it go vrooom vrooom and if he dies it's cause he's stupid amiright?

for someone that makes such long winded posts you dont seem to take time and read what others post eh?
never have I ever said balancing is easy. All I said he had a job, he kittened it up.
Thats all there is to it, we are all humans and we all make mistakes, I kitten up at my job too.
Its not about trying and failing because its part of progress but he tried, failed and gave up.
And with how he did it and what he says all I can do is laugh at his attempts.
Strawberry milkshake is closer to CMC then CMC is to musk so dont make such comparisons mate lol.
Hes the guy that says kitten like rev played by the best and best played to win, he the guy that made mirage 1 dodge to beta-test vindicator. He is the guy that put 300s cd skills, he is the guy that wanted to nerf all damage and sustain, and instead off butting global dmg debuff he went and wasted probably days going through every skill 1 by 1 and nerfing them, forgot like 20-30% of them and had to go through this kitten again untill he ran out of time and his bosses told him to kitten off and work one xpansion.

[Shieldbash.5304]

I think the real question is should there always be classes that are better then others? How Long has Guardians and Necros been OP?

 

Rangers were good 7 years ago, then nerfed immediately, now they sit at low mid pack. Whilst Guardians and Necros have been OP for what 5 years now?

[FarmBotXD.1430]

1 minute ago, Shieldbash.5304 said:

I think the real question is should there always be classes that are better then others? How Long has Guardians and Necros been OP?

 

Rangers were good 7 years ago, then nerfed immediately, now they sit at low mid pack. Whilst Guardians and Necros have been OP for what 5 years now?

can you imagine if mesmer was so OP there was 5 of them in each game?
there would be a nerf post every 10min created and whine would never end, the bias is real

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

for someone that makes such long winded posts you dont seem to take time and read what others post eh?
never have I ever said balancing is easy. All I said he had a job, he kittened it up.
Thats all there is to it, we are all humans and we all make mistakes, I kitten up at my job too.
Its not about trying and failing because its part of progress but he tried, failed and gave up.
And with how he did it and what he says all I can do is laugh at his attempts.
Strawberry milkshake is closer to CMC then CMC is to musk so dont make such comparisons mate lol.
Hes the guy that says kitten like rev played by the best and best played to win, he the guy that made mirage 1 dodge to beta-test vindicator. He is the guy that put 300s cd skills, he is the guy that wanted to nerf all damage and sustain, and instead off butting global dmg debuff he went and wasted probably days going through every skill 1 by 1 and nerfing them, forgot like 20-30% of them and had to go through this kitten again untill he ran out of time and his bosses told him to kitten off and work one xpansion.

 

You're just trying to backtrack and justify the context of what you said with "I make mistakes too" umm ya okay we all make mistakes every once and a while flipping burgers or shaking milkshakes or whatever...that's not the point...I spent a good portion of my energy here explaining, that balancing a game is probably an impossible task...in principle. What you are doing is trivializing the job he was given and that's why it's so easy for you to blame him when things go wrong.

 

Would you not agree... that if I give you a job that is impossible to do...you would say it is UNFAIR to blame you if you end up failing at that job right?

 

That's why the way you talk about CMC is insensitive where my criticisms are always constructive...because I'm not trivializing the job that he has...that's why my response : "Then do it yourself," is appropriate and it just keeps flying over your head.

 

Quote

Strawberry milkshake is closer to CMC then CMC is to musk so dont make such comparisons mate lol.

 

If anything it's Milkshake<Musk<CMC because at least we KNOW how to get to Mars with Newtonian mechanics...we know how to flip burgers and make milkshakes...but there is still no definite consensus or true understanding about diversity,  balance...complex systems and so on...there's also large reason to believe, that in order to have a real answer to these topics requires a Theory of Everything.

 

Another thing to understand is that I do not blame CMC or the community for the outcome of the February patch...the issue has, and always will be, the balance philosophy. Saying that CMC made mistakes cause he's bad at his job...implies that you are defending the balance philosophy; that it actually works but just wasn't executed properly...which trivializes the situation and makes it easier to blame him and ignore the actual problem: The philosophy.

Edited December 27, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[FarmBotXD.1430]

@Justice.2593
sorry if I didnt read everything you wrote, I just dont have energy to go through all that.
Also, balance is a destination but its all about the road to get there, I dont blame him for failing to get " true " balance, since its not possible, I blame him for making it worse then it was before he touched it.
We gave 4+ necros a game for over a year, we had a nade holo 1shoting people with a healing skill, we had permanently invulnerable condi rev, that carried silver players to high plat, we had birds 2 shoting people, we still have lich auto-attacking for upwards of 10k damage.
Bad classes remain bad and get nerfed, good classes remain good and at best get wrist slapped.
Its inexcusable and shameful. He made things worse, then made jokes about it.
It is absolutely fair to blame him for kittening up the balance worse then it was.
Its like paying someone to clean your house and come back to bigger mess then you left it, like sure you cant " perfectly " clean it but taking kitten in a living room is a step in the wrong direction.
Like you dont have to be a kittening genius to realize that buffing overpowered class is not the right way to balance things.
And its not like its been a month or 2 and we are waiting for him to finish his "grand plan" its been over a kittening year and its as kitten as he started

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

16 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

@Justice.2593
sorry if I didnt read everything you wrote, I just dont have energy to go through all that.
Also, balance is a destination but its all about the road to get there, I dont blame him for failing to get " true " balance, since its not possible, I blame him for making it worse then it was before he touched it.
We gave 4+ necros a game for over a year, we had a nade holo 1shoting people with a healing skill, we had permanently invulnerable condi rev, that carried silver players to high plat, we had birds 2 shoting people, we still have lich auto-attacking for upwards of 10k damage.
Bad classes remain bad and get nerfed, good classes remain good and at best get wrist slapped.
Its inexcusable and shameful. He made things worse, then made jokes about it.
It is absolutely fair to blame him for kittening up the balance worse then it was.
Its like paying someone to clean your house and come back to bigger mess then you left it, like sure you cant " perfectly " clean it but taking kitten in a living room is a step in the wrong direction.
Like you dont have to be a kittening genius to realize that buffing overpowered class is not the right way to balance things.
And its not like its been a month or 2 and we are waiting for him to finish his "grand plan" its been over a kittening year and its as kitten as he started

Again you spent yet another post trivializing the task he was given to do…equating it to “cleaning a house.” That “it doesn’t take a genius to balance the game.”

 

like I say yet again, if it’s SO trivial the you go do it yourself. You can clean your own house can’t you? Then go do it then.
 

If balance is as trivial as cleaning your house then go and balance the game

Until then I will sip this tea.

[Kuma.1503]

It's easy to blame CMC now, but remember, his balance philosophy, the forums, and the shadow discord's were very much aligned for the span of 2 years. 

There were very few buffs. The ones we got came in the form of reworks, such as the rework to sevenshot. 

The rest of the changes were almost exclusively nerfs and removals. If there was something the PvP community didn't like, it got nerfed. 

"Firebrand shouldn't be able to spam AoE's on node brainlessly and win"

Larger symbols removed on PvP. Heal skill butchered. Tomes  and sustain nerfed. 

 

"Condi Rev does too much damage and has too much sustain and is much too tanky with damage reduction"

Sustain nerfed. Torment duration and stack count reduced. Resistance duration heavily nerfed. Shield skills and core sustain traits nerfed. Later, resistance was reworked to no longer work against damaging condi's causing the spec to literally kill itself when using pain absorption.

 

"Nades do too much damage and are one shotting people"

Nades nerfed

"Bro they still deal too much damage"

Nades nerfed

"Hello I just got hit by 10k grenade barrage, why haven't you nerfed nades yet?"

Grenade barrage nerfed

 

"Fire weaver has too many evades and is too tanky for how much damage it does"

Burning and barrier generation reduced. Also obsidian skin was reworked into a far inferior version of itself. 

 

I could go on. Point being, every one of these changes was met with positive feedback from the forums. Following an immediate spell of amnesia where people forgot that CMC gave them exactly what they wanted and they would complain about the thing again because the nerfs didn't kill it, or they would complain about something else, saying CMC doesn't care or listen to them. 

I'd argue CMC actually did a very good job at accomplishing what he set out to do. The problem is that what he set out to do was a doomed mission from the start, and the community is what encouraged it in the first place. 

[FarmBotXD.1430]

12 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Again you spent yet another post trivializing the task he was given to do…equating it to “cleaning a house.” That “it doesn’t take a genius to balance the game.”

 

like I say yet again, if it’s SO trivial the you go do it yourself. You can clean your own house can’t you? Then go do it then.
 

If balance is as trivial as cleaning your house then go and balance the game

Until then I will sip this tea.

year 2021 is the year of whitekinights and simps
guess some of us have problem accepting reality, or maybe having 4-5 necromancers in each match is how its supposed to be.
heck, minionmancer wining mat must have been his grand design that took 1 year to come to fruition.
I bet my maid would make a better job of balancing then CMC

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

11 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

It's easy to blame CMC now, but remember, his balance philosophy, the forums, and the shadow discord's were very much aligned for the span of 2 years. 

There were very few buffs. The ones we got came in the form of reworks, such as the rework to sevenshot. 

The rest of the changes were almost exclusively nerfs and removals. If there was something the PvP community didn't like, it got nerfed. 

"Firebrand shouldn't be able to spam AoE's on node brainlessly and win"

Larger symbols removed on PvP. Heal skill butchered. Tomes  and sustain nerfed. 

 

"Condi Rev does too much damage and has too much sustain and is much too tanky with damage reduction"

Sustain nerfed. Torment duration and stack count reduced. Resistance duration heavily nerfed. Shield skills and core sustain traits nerfed. Later, resistance was reworked to no longer work against damaging condi's causing the spec to literally kill itself when using pain absorption.

 

"Nades do too much damage and are one shotting people"

Nades nerfed

"Bro they still deal too much damage"

Nades nerfed

"Hello I just got hit by 10k grenade barrage, why haven't you nerfed nades yet?"

Grenade barrage nerfed

 

"Fire weaver has too many evades and is too tanky for how much damage it does"

Burning and barrier generation reduced. Also obsidian skin was reworked into a far inferior version of itself. 

 

I could go on. Point being, every one of these changes was met with positive feedback from the forums. Following an immediate spell of amnesia where people forgot that CMC gave them exactly what they wanted and they would complain about the thing again because the nerfs didn't kill it, or they would complain about something else, saying CMC doesn't care or listen to them. 

I'd argue CMC actually did a very good job at accomplishing what he set out to do. The problem is that what he set out to do was a doomed mission from the start, and the community is what encouraged it in the first place. 

Couldn’t have said it better myself. The amnesia is real…According to FarmbotxD I’m apparently a white knight and a simp for CMC omegalol. Idk if I can fathom this moment right now. 

 

Crazy part is…that when things went wrong with a flawed philosophy the crowd wanted…the crowd then aims their pitch forks at cmc. mysterious how convenient this is for them.

 

What’s worse is that people still want more nerfs, more removals…I’m glad the “remove amulets phase” has cooled off a bit. The evil side of me wants to see all these amulets removed so that people can finally learn just how bad of an idea it actually is…but the good side of me wants what’s best for the game, not it’s destruction.