Current generally best WvW roaming/duelist build?

[Sahne.6950]

27 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

With all that said, FA scepter/focus Weaver is one of the scariest builds for me to encounter in WvW. Not saying that the build is better or even good because objectively speaking it seems to have many more flaws, but I kitten my pants when I see them because I know that at any second I can be 100-0'd before I can blink. Honestly I really respect people that use this build because it seems to have an extremely high skill ceiling. When I have given Fire Weaver a spin in the past, I could still win a lot of my fights despite my lack of experience, but when I have tried FA Weaver, I totally crumble. That sort of thing gives me personal incentive to want to try it.

Unfortunately the golden days of FA are in the past :C

i started playing Gw2 as a Freshair ele and i have not touched anything else for almost 4 years(i am that guy that plays one thing and one thing only:D ) ... i always thought every class was that hard.. but i was 16 and stupid at that time... Now almost 10 years later i can say that i have become pretty good at FA^^(no im not playing it exclusive anymore.. i stopped back in the day when i noticed how ridicilously EZ Ranger is in comparison) BUT.... unfortunately i have to say it has seen better days. the overall damage nerf that happend and the recent -5% damage nerf on that one weaver trait is was put the last nail in the coffin for me... i rarely touch my FA nowadays... *Sad legendary sceptre noises*

its not that its bad... other things that run around in WvW have just become so cheesy and some can straight up oneshot you :C

nontheless, and i think we can all agree on that, seeing someone that makes FA work is awesome and i have mad respect for them!

Edited February 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Za Shaloc.3908]

39 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Unfortunately the golden days of FA are in the past :C

i started playing Gw2 as a Freshair ele and i have not touched anything else for almost 4 years(i am that guy that plays one thing and one thing only:D ) ... i always thought every class was that hard.. but i was 16 and stupid at that time... Now almost 10 years later i can say that i have become pretty good at FA^^(no im not playing it exclusive anymore.. i stopped back in the day when i noticed how ridicilously EZ Ranger is in comparison) BUT.... unfortunately i have to say it has seen better days. the overall damage nerf that happend and the recent -5% damage nerf on that one weaver trait is was put the last nail in the coffin for me... i rarely touch my FA nowadays... *Sad legendary sceptre noises*

its not that its bad... other things that run around in WvW have just become so cheesy and some can straight up oneshot you :C

nontheless, and i think we can all agree on that, seeing someone that makes FA work is awesome and i have mad respect for them!

 

Haha oh yeah I am in total agreeance with you. FA has been hit really really hard over the years, so I guess that is part of what impresses me about those who can play it well. I have been trying to learn core power Mes lately and struggle to find motivation to when 75% of what I run into now is Cele. Would like to try the same with FA but sadly it just doesn't seem to be the right environment for it anymore. 

 

(Sorry OP for the slight derailment.)

Edited February 1, 2022 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Rodril.1385]

I've recorded some of my yesterday's duels on water weaver, so you can see how it works:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nljleoa2w80j44b/gw2_wweaver_duels.mp4?dl=0

Unfortunately, i did not meet other weavers (actualy seeing them less than warriors). Fights are chaotic, but you can see, how water carries me through mistakes. I would not say this build does 60% less dps, than fire weaver, rather 30% less, ha ha. Overall, i think, it is viable.

I do have problems with durable builds with good sustain (trailblazer mirage, condi necro), i never die to them tho - fight becomes endless, and i prefer to leave.

 

[Sahne.6950]

4 hours ago, Rodril.1385 said:

I've recorded some of my yesterday's duels on water weaver, so you can see how it works:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nljleoa2w80j44b/gw2_wweaver_duels.mp4?dl=0

Unfortunately, i did not meet other weavers (actualy seeing them less than warriors). Fights are chaotic, but you can see, how water carries me through mistakes. I would not say this build does 60% less dps, than fire weaver, rather 30% less, ha ha. Overall, i think, it is viable.

I do have problems with durable builds with good sustain (trailblazer mirage, condi necro), i never die to them tho - fight becomes endless, and i prefer to leave.

 

you dont have to have problems with durable builds if you would use fire 😄 fire carries you the same way as water does because it is actually more sustain... please read my posts. i explained EVERYTHING you need to know. 

I am happy that you are having fun with your waterweaver tho!

i used to love it! I was using some celestial stats mixed with Marshal stats! you should give that a try.

considering the videos.... im not even sure where to start...... BROoO For real those clips.... awww its so hard to watch.... in ALL OF THE VIDEOS combined  your enemys, all together, cleansed 3 conditions at best! everything you applied went for its full duration... that you are not seeing that for yourself is kind of sad... but it was noobs 100% or people with 0 cleanse...  FOR REAL LOOK AT IT XDDD  they dont cleanse a single condition. You are managing to stack 6 posionstacks on some dudes... just from your doom sigil....

you are winning these fights because you are better then your opponents! it is very obvious that you outskill them hard.... what is not obvious is that you are winning because of your build... your damage is pathetic to say the least... but your enemys dont cleanse.. they dont stunbreak and they sit in your pyrovortexes for some weird reason....  All im seeing here is poopoo dmg between 300 and 900 conditicks...  oooh and that one mighty 1.2k damage tick on the downstate dude.....  idk man 😧

YOU CAN KILL PEOPLE WITH IT! BUT THEY WOULD HAVE DIED TO ANYTHING ELSE TOO!

that engie... standing on the same spot throwing the grenades AROUND YOU..... he was not even hitting anything xD you use pyrovortex and he runs into it and just stays in it......where do you find these people....

COME ON! that is no proof for your build being viable or good, that is at best proof for you being good.

you are playing really good... if you would use the firebuild you would be a beast.... they both have roughly the same playstyle only that starfire has alot more resources, damage|healing|barrier|fireaurauptime -> damage,might|cleanse is arguably the same...

Starfire has more damage/second 

Starfire has more health+barrier/second 

Current generally best WvW roaming/duelist build?

 remember the title?

yours works... but is it the best? 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[fuzzyp.6295]

15 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i think it boils down to water giving you a slightly better cleanse (on paper), but you are loosing ALL OF YOUR BARRIER, some healthgain and about 60% of your damage.... TOOOTALLY made that number up 😄

Celestisal Weaver pumps out enough Barrier and Sustain through its own Healing Power that you really don't need Lesser Stone Resonance and even the Invigorating Strikes. And if you're running Water specifically, you will have better overall sustain with heals meaning that, sure while you'll lose a bit of barrier thats really not make or break on a build but you'll get more damage which any build using Water needs. You still have much higher sustain than on Fire Weaver builds, albeit as incoming heals as opposed to straight up barrier.
 

15 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

whereas with the watersetup you poop them out passively and cant really say: OH KITTEN I HAVE 7 DIFFRENT CONDIS ON ME, BUT IT DOESNT MATTER HERE COMES THE CLEANSE..... You-are-cleansing-one-condition-at-a-time.... You kindof poop them out passive allthe time, which leads to you wasting some, while also taking some time to cleanse a bigger condi burst....

Thing is with water this "Oh no, 7 different condis on me" situation doesn't happen as often as it does on Fire does because you are constantly cleansing. Water builds don't allow you to get a built up on conditions because you have so many different ways to cleanse and unlike the Detonate Aura cleanse, there is no cool down and less restrictions on using it.

EDIT: and in the event where it does happen,  say if you're condi bomed when you're in Air/Fire and had just used your detonate aura so thats on cool down... well thats 3 seconds or so till you get back to fire for your first aura and then another 3 seconds to wait till you can detonate it. Even if you Flamewall -> Polaric Leap for an Aura then swap to Fire, thats only two condis cleansed out of 7. Water may have a lot of single cleasnes, but it has a lot more freedom to access them whereas Fire cleanse are really locked around Fire and the Detonate Aura. It may be more overall for Water to 'do' to cleance a condi bomb, but its not as though its difficult. Fire is nicely packed behind its one attunement, which is both a benefit and can be a hindrance if you're caught in a bad part of your rotation.

 

15 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

also you have to be in non damaging attunements (water,air) to cleanse... wheras the auracleans is possible from every attunement besides earth i guess... but that has earth 4, earth 5  and the passive barrier dualattack from fire/earth so it helps tank thru some condis aswell. -> Easy access to condicleanses in EVERY attunement!

Uhh, Air as a non-damaging attunement lol? Yes, swapping into Water does suck and one of the benefits Fire has over it. But Air is certainly not a non-damaging attunement, even more if you're running a build that uses Air since you'll have tons of access to Fury. (Unless you're specifically referring to the combo of Water/Air? I'm not sure if you mean Air in general or what.)

Water has cleansing in every attunement through Dual Attacks meaning you're never don't have a cleanse on you.  And yeah, Earth 4 and Lava Skin both work for Water builds too. It's not as if Water builds don't go into Fire ever.

 

15 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Comet (Daze gives Regen with Elemental Lockdown)

 you are kind of using weird things to make your point valuable...  you are aware that you have to be in double water for that to procc? 

We can also now look at Fire Cleansing options: but this time we do it right 😛

Fire Aura (Fire 5) + transmute ->3
Attune to Fire + the free transmute everytime -> 3 cleanse every swap to fire
Leap through Fire Field (so we'll count this as a x2 for Fire and Air 2) + transmuting it -> 1+1+2+2=6
Dodge in Water Attunement 

there is some flaws buddy....  your argumentation about cleansing is weird... it doesnt work like that (it does on paper but a real situation would be diffrent)

So what double attuning doesn't happen? Whenever I run Water builds I double attune when I need Aqua Siphon for an extra heal.  But even if you take out the 'double attunemet' for Aqua Siphon and Daze, there is still more options for cleansing in that build than Fire.

EDIT: Also, Elemental Lockdown works by giving you the boon based on the attunement when the disable occurs, not cast. This means if you cast comet in Fire/Water, then swap to Water/Fire as the casting animation plays and before the daze hits it will work no problemo. This is very doable giving its animation time. When it connects, you get Regen from both swapping to water AND will proc a second regen with lockdown. Double cleanse and not double attunement need ^_^

Funny enough this also means that other CC's like Gale if cast in Water/Air will give regen and Gale Strike can cleanse up to three conditions if you time your animation with attunement swapping. (Swift Revenge, Water Attunement Swap, Elemental Lockdown) More cleanse for water oh my!

Also, did I not say that Fire gets 13 cleanses? Lol 🙃

At the end of the day, it comes down to what I mentioned early. Water offers more sustain cleanses over longer period of time making it the better option if you want to build a bunker focused build and Fire offers better burst cleanses without the trade off of damage. But let me be clear: I was never disagreeing with that fact in that post and wasn't trying to suggest that Fire is somehow less useful at cleansing.  I also agree with you in that Fire is the better option for roaming and just over all when compared to Water builds at the moment. It's a nice change of pace from the literal years of being locked behind Water. Fire may have overall less cleanses, but as you explained in your post, it does its job much more effectively than Water does at the moment.

The only thing I was only disagreeing with was you saying that water only had cleanses on Attuning to Water, Air and Air Autoattack which was absolutely wrong and misleading. Water has many, many more ways to cleanse and keep cleansing. That doesn't mean its better though.

Edited February 1, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295
Explained how Elemental Lockdown works a bit better.

[fuzzyp.6295]

10 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

Haha oh yeah I am in total agreeance with you. FA has been hit really really hard over the years, so I guess that is part of what impresses me about those who can play it well. I have been trying to learn core power Mes lately and struggle to find motivation to when 75% of what I run into now is Cele. Would like to try the same with FA but sadly it just doesn't seem to be the right environment for it anymore. 

 

(Sorry OP for the slight derailment.)

If you're interested in Fresh Air you should absolutely play it. Unlike Sword Weaver, which is locked before the elite, Fresh Air exists on every Elementalist spec and has always been a viable option for Ele. While I don't know if Catalyst Fresh Air will be a thing, its never a bad thing to invest in learning. I would say that if you take the time to learn to use Fresh Air you would actually become a better roamer because of it. Fresh Air has one very, very big leg up on Sword Weaver and that is its not held back by its range.

If you (or anyone) if interesting in playing scepter though and aren't sold on the idea of Fresh Air, Scepter Lightning Rod can be extremely fun to play around with as well. It's also a bit more forgiving (but slower) than Fresh Air.

Also, Fresh Air is definitely the better build if any roamer who wants to gank squirreling pugs in zergs, which can be very cathartic for an Ele.

Edited February 1, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[Sahne.6950]

12 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Also, Elemental Lockdown works by giving you the boon based on the attunement when the disable occurs, not cast.

 

OHH nice! i did not know that^^

TODAY I LEARNED!

 

So what double attuning doesn't happen?

i dont think i ever double attuned on purpose ever... i always thought its a nono on weaver.... because you are loosing valuable buffs. at best i doubleattune to fire for the 3 to deliver the final blow... but even that is rare. TODAY I LEARNED AGAIN!

 

Air as a non-damaging attunement?

attunements in order of how much damage they can push out:  Fire>Earth>Air>Water

normally i burst with fire and earth -> primordialstance...    but obviously Fire+Air is one of the strongest combinations. but Air alone has doodoo damage on a full cele build, especially if you cant stack up to 25 might easily or you combine it with water... . Air is mostly Mobility/CC in my books. It obviously holds pyrovotex when combined with fire, but outside of that its not really damage heavy.

 

sure while you'll lose a bit of barrier thats really not make or break on a build

im not sure about that one.... you are having over 5k barrier on you at times in a fight... while on the waterbuild you have NON... not even a single fart of barrier.... its make or break for me.

 

You still have much higher sustain than on Fire Weaver builds

 but why do you think that?  you have more hp+barrier/second and that is a fact.... you have to explain to me how and why you would have more sustain with water.... you are loosing ATLEAST 12-15k barrier in any fight that is longer then 20 seconds.... Stoneresonance alone is 6k barrier and it proccs in every fight....  where do you get all the healing from to compensate that? from the switches to water? HELL NO they dont even make up for not having barrier on dodgeroll. soothing mist? that is worth 1 dodgeroll every 10 seconds... so you are not getting it from that aswell.... FOR REAL if you have any proof for what you are saying i will believe you. but on paper when mathing it out you dont have more sustain. You have more healing that is true... but if we consider barrier aswell it is not even close....

i can imagine if you excessively use water:  Water-Attunementx-Water-AttunementY-Water-Attunement Z-Water.......  you MIGHT come close to the sustain because you heal around... 1.6k or something on every swap. But even when completely spamming water it is close at best! And in any normal fight you would not spam water that much... While you are getting the full sustain from fire just thru using your dodgekey and stances... aka you dont have to camp water or anything...

Water alone is ALOT MORE SUSTAIN then fire... but if we look closer you are missing alot of your other sustains like the arcane trait or the 2 in weaver to make it work... so overall it is less sustain...  just try facetanking someone with the 2 builds(obviously use all the tools you have to defend yourself; get a guildmate or something and go to armistice and check it out). You will very quickly notice that there is little to no difference... if any the Fireweaver build will feel safer because of the barrier.   BEEN THERE DONE THAT.

If you would take water WITH the barrier traits... then you have alot more sustain.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[fuzzyp.6295]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

So what double attuning doesn't happen?

i dont think i ever double attuned on purpose ever... i always thought its a nono on weaver.... because you are loosing valuable buffs. at best i doubleattune to fire for the 3 to deliver the final blow... but even that is rare. TODAY I LEARNED AGAIN!

Well to be completely fair, double attuning isn't something that you should strive for. Like you said, Cauterizing Strike on Fire is pretty good. And if you are running power focused (Marauder/Beserker), Quantam Strike can actually shred through opponents, don't sleep on it. Aqua Siphon is probably not worth aiming if you're running Fire since Fire Weavers have really no reason to go into water outside of Riptide -> Vortex, but the heal can be pretty fat if you're running more defensive stats and don't mind staying in water longer (or need to for heals).

The only irredeemably bad double attune is Rust Frenzy. Nothing about that move saves it.

 

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Air as a non-damaging attunement?

attunements in order of how much damage they can push out:  Fire>Earth>Air>Water

normally i burst with fire and earth -> primordialstance...    but obviously Fire+Air is one of the strongest combinations. but Air alone has doodoo damage on a full cele build, especially if you cant stack up to 25 might easily or you combine it with water... . Air is mostly Mobility/CC in my books. It obviously holds pyrovotex when combined with fire, but outside of that its not really damage heavy.

If you're running Fire Celestial then yeah, Air isn't the best when compared to Fire and Earth since Celestial really shines with that extra condition damage. But if you run more power focused (Marauder/Crusader/Beserker) Air can be a pretty heavy hitting spec, even with sword. I've seen some really fat numbers with my old Marauder Sword builds. But it depends on how you trait things yeah.

 

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

sure while you'll lose a bit of barrier thats really not make or break on a build

im not sure about that one.... you are having over 5k barrier on you at times in a fight... while on the waterbuild you have NON... not even a single fart of barrier.... its make or break for me.

Fair enough. Having lived through the old core D/D days, I don't particularly feel barrier is necessary, but I totally get the value from having it and why its a great thing to have. I personally don't run Bolstered Elements in Fire Weave build because I think its just overkill with Invigorating Strikes (EDIT: Well that and Lesser's disgusting 70 second icd. might as well not even have it).

Which yeah, actually, I feel like this whole back and forth makes it seem like I'm trying to champion the wonders of Waters, meanwhile I only play Fire Weaver nowadays lmao.

 

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

You still have much higher sustain than on Fire Weaver builds

 but why do you think that?  you have more hp+barrier/second and that is a fact.... you have to explain to me how and why you would have more sustain with water.... you are loosing ATLEAST 12-15k barrier in any fight that is longer then 20 seconds.... Stoneresonance alone is 6k barrier and it proccs in every fight....  where do you get all the healing from to compensate that? from the switches to water? HELL NO they dont even make up for not having barrier on dodgeroll. soothing mist? that is worth 1 dodgeroll every 10 seconds... so you are not getting it from that aswell.... FOR REAL if you have any proof for what you are saying i will believe you. but on paper when mathing it out you dont have more sustain. You have more healing that is true... but if we consider barrier aswell it is not even close....

It might be a misunderstanding between what I consider sustain and how I phrased it here.

I consider sustain to be more focused on keeping your HP up and stable, which Water does in spades as opposed to Fire and its barrier which keeps it HP safe to begin with.  Water has basically near perma regen and soothing mist both of which should be healing you for around 3,000+ every 10 seconds, in addition to the 1,600~  heal you get when you swap into water. Your insane amount of cleanses also means condi chip damage is non-existance, so unless you're condi bombed with 5+ condis at once, you've basically reduced the overall damage any move that uses supplemental condi damage. (Similar to how condi eats away at barrier on Fire Weaver keeping them safe). Between that and Elemental Refreshment to reduce direct damage of incoming attacks, you have the recipe to keep your HP nice and stable.

Fire has plenty of sustain if you count Barrier, yeah, but its a different form of sustain and not what I was thinking when I wrote that statement. I should have probably made it more clear. My b.
 

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Water alone is ALOT MORE SUSTAIN then fire... but if we look closer you are missing alot of your other sustains like the arcane trait or the 2 in weaver to make it work... so overall it is less sustain...  just try facetanking someone with the 2 builds(obviously use all the tools you have to defend yourself; get a guildmate or something and go to armistice and check it out). You will very quickly notice that there is little to no difference... if any the Fireweaver build will feel safer because of the barrier.   BEEN THERE DONE THAT.

I've played both Water Weaver and Fire Weaver for years now on and off. I've honestly found them to be about the same in terms of survivability, even if you don't take any of those barrier traits. The major difference was that Fire could offer what Water did without losing all of its damage.

Edited February 2, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[Sahne.6950]

3 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I consider sustain to be more focused on keeping your HP up and stable

I consider sustain like that:  how much Damage / Time can you take while still maintaining your health, or even regenerating some back. And i think that is exactly how you perceive it aswell. For that equation it doesnt matter if you sustain that damage via Barrier,Regeneration,or straight up damage mitigation.

Fire has plenty of sustain if you count Barrier, yeah, but its a different form of sustain and not what I was thinking when I wrote that statement.

Why does that not count? :0 barrier is temporary health... there is literally no diffrence, besides that you can stack barrier ONTOP of you actual healthbar, but it runs out after a few seconds. While receiving damage they both act in the EXACT same way. barrier is also not affected by posion.... there is alot of reasons why barrier is actually more valuabe then the same ammount of healing. it even helps to protect your truehp when recovering said HP. Barrier=HP on steroids 😄

3 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I've honestly found them to be about the same in terms of survivability, ......  The major difference was that Fire could offer what Water did without losing all of its damage.

 

That was my point all along.  altho i am still 100% sure that fire has the edge over water in terms of survivability -> Barriertraits.

should be healing you for around 3,000+ every 10 seconds

okey lets math it out for you^^  that is 300hp/second.    dont forget that you have THE SAME REGEN on fire aswell(swap to water gives regen also and it has the same strength as on water build cuz you have same healingpowerstat)... so we take away half of that because fire has it aswell. so we are at 150-200hp/second from soothing mists that you have extra from water. so we are comparing 150-200hp/second and 1600 on waterswap to ALL the barrier that you can get on fireweaver.... In my books fire offers more or atleast a comparable level of sustain...  i personally would rather have the barrier! that 1600 on swap is comparable to one single dodgeroll... it is less than 1 blast of your waterfield... All of the things above dont even outweight  stoneresonance  proccing.... it is honestly not that much. but having around 2-5k barrier on you that tanks complete hits and eats condis.... AHHH i would go with fire ANY DAY!! You are overhealing SO MUCH when healing is all you have when facing incoming damage. Naturally you are going to overshoot with healing alot giving it even less value. Arguably barrier can run out too but most of the time you dodge,aka create barrier, when you are about to receive damage, so you get 100%of the value most of the time(atleast when playing right). same goes for stances giving barrier... you pop them WHEN GOING in. you cant heal beforehand so you dont really have that extra layer protecting your true healthbar. So in a way you are living more dangerous. you also have to go into a defensive rotation more often, because as soon as you drop below ~70%HP you have to do something about it. Fireweaver has to do the same, BUT while receiving the same amout of damage: lets say 1 single 5000 Damage hit, the waterbuild is at 70% the fireweaver will still be at 90% or something, because all they did was hit your barrier!  Remember there is nothing protection your hp bar... while also sitting at around only 19-20k hp.. as soon as you get hit with something you have to stop being aggressive and heal. No regen in this world will help you sustain a Burst from a ranger or something. whereas having 5k extra hp(barrier) on you will. i hope you understand what i mean with that.^^

The Cherry on top for me is that you can heal from 0 to a 100 with fire... just do that tripple blast combo in your waterfield....  For me there is no need to have even more healing thru watertraits when you can already burstheal yourself to full on a 15 second CD....  no need to stack into healing anymore when you have all the tools to burstheal you to full on a regular.

If you want Water to succeed Fire in terms of survivability you have to take more Marshal pieces instead of going full cele, because water will scale alot from the Healingpower. On full Cele the barriers outweigh the healing from Soothingmist and waterswap.

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[AliamRationem.5172]

Just figured the conversation regarding fire weaver and barrier could use a quick video example.

Reapers probably don't expect you to fully eat spin-to-win, but my 9k+ barrier said why not?

[Sahne.6950]

43 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Just figured the conversation regarding fire weaver and barrier could use a quick video example.

Reapers probably don't expect you to fully eat spin-to-win, but my 9k+ barrier said why not?

YES!!! ty buddy! LOOK AT THAT BARRIER!!!! to reach the 9k barrier that he is having you would have to switch 6 times in and out of water to get the same value from the waterswap.... and that is only working while you are not at full HP. There is no soothing mist that outweighs ALL OF THAT! he is exactly playing what i said earlier is the best thing to play in a 1v1 scenario... LOOK AT IT XDD it is STUPID how much barrier he has.... whereas the waterbuild has non. he would have for sure died without his barrier. All the regeneration and posible healing doesnt safe you when under heavy pressure, aka while getting bursted. BUT BARRIER DOES! Barrier allows you to react to a burst before it is happening which lets you tank thru it. BUT YOU CANT PREHEAL... you can only react to damage AFTER you have taken it... and sometimes that is simply to late.

Is it worth missing all of that for some poopy soothingmist??? i think not... and it is not even remotely close...

Edited February 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[fuzzyp.6295]

4 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Why does that not count?

I said it didn't count because I wasn't thinking about it when I wrote that statement. It was an incorrect phrase on my part, not that it isn't sustain and corrected my terminology. 

 

4 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

okey lets math it out for you^^  that is 300hp/second.    dont forget that you have THE SAME REGEN on fire aswell(swap to water gives regen also and it has the same strength as on water build cuz you have same healingpowerstat)... so we take away half of that because fire has it aswell. so we are at 150-200hp/second from soothing mists that you have extra from water. so we are comparing 150-200hp/second and 1600 on waterswap to ALL the barrier that you can get on fireweaver....

Fire Weaver enters Water to heal themselves up only, you have only one access to regen. If it gets stripped or you don't enter water, then you don't have any passive heals coming in at all other than from your Signet. If that regen gets tore from Water Weaver, its fine because basically anything they do will eventually lead to them reapplying Regen.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your comparisons with Barrier as to why its better, but you are vastly underestimating the usefulness of having the 3,000 HP floating around every 10 seconds in addition to your regular heals (which, as you said, is at about the same level of Fire Weaver.)

29 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

YES!!! ty buddy! LOOK AT THAT BARRIER!!!! there is no soothing mist that outweighs ALL OF THAT!

I mean do you not see where that barrier is coming from?  It's from the utility skill Stone Resonance...being used in a row twice...  which is not by any means a Fire Weaver only skill. If you wanna throw that on a Water Weaver build you'd only make them stronger. I've been trying to discuss this with the idea that we'd be using full cantrips (which is not really ideal nor how I would run a Water Weaver).  I wasn't even trying to consider the cantrip regen in the above ~3,000 heals because you still get so much regen from just Woven Stride and Swift Revenge.

Stone Resonance on Water Builds is fantastic and you get a lot more use out of it because Water doesn't have barriers.

You could also like, I dunno, dodge? Aliam is a great roamer I've fought mutiple times before so I know they know what they're doing. But they also had two dodges remaining during the entire Soul Sprial. A Water Weaver would have dodged instead of eating it.

EDIT: A better way to show this off would be to point at the barrier that comes up from Lesser Stone Ressoance after the spin to win at around 20s. THAT shows the benefits of Barrier. Atleast when compared to Fire Weaver v Water Weaver barrier.

Edited February 2, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[AliamRationem.5172]

21 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

YES!!! ty buddy! LOOK AT THAT BARRIER!!!! to reach the 9k barrier that he is having you would have to switch 6 times in and out of water to get the same value from the waterswap.... and that is only working while you are not at full HP. There is no soothing mist that outweighs ALL OF THAT! he is exactly playing what i said earlier is the best thing to play in a 1v1 scenario... LOOK AT IT XDD it is STUPID how much barrier he has.... whereas the waterbuild has non. he would have for sure died without his barrier. All the regeneration and posible healing doesnt safe you when under heavy pressure, aka while getting bursted. BUT BARRIER DOES! Barrier allows you to react to a burst before it is happening which lets you tank thru it. BUT YOU CANT PREHEAL... you can only react to damage AFTER you have taken it... and sometimes that is simply to late.

Is it worth missing all of that for some poopy soothingmist??? i think not... and it is not even remotely close...

Well, hang on.  You're presenting this as if water weaver can't also trait barrier and slot stone resonance.  I think the point was more why give up what you really need (damage!) when you don't have to?  I love it when high-burst builds like trap guard and reaper pull me into their burst.  I just barrier up and chew through their shroud/health. 

They aren't defending themselves because they expect you to be the one who has to defend.  For that purpose, the more damage the better because as soon as they realize they're losing that exchange they'll start playing defense and your damage window closes.  You want to make those windows count and fire does a much better job of it.  The sustain is obviously quite strong for both builds.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

25 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I said it didn't count because I wasn't thinking about it when I wrote that statement. It was an incorrect phrase on my part, not that it isn't sustain and corrected my terminology. 

 

Fire Weaver enters Water to heal themselves up only, you have only one access to regen. If it gets stripped or you don't enter water, then you don't have any passive heals coming in at all other than from your Signet. If that regen gets tore from Water Weaver, its fine because basically anything they do will eventually lead to them reapplying Regen.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your comparisons with Barrier as to why its better, but you are vastly underestimating the usefulness of having the 3,000 HP floating around every 10 seconds in addition to your regular heals (which, as you said, is at about the same level of Fire Weaver.)

I mean do you not see where that barrier is coming from?  It's from the utility skill Stone Resonance...being used in a row twice...  which is not by any means a Fire Weaver only skill. If you wanna throw that on a Water Weaver build you'd only make them stronger. I've been trying to discuss this with the idea that we'd be using full cantrips (which is not really ideal nor how I would run a Water Weaver).  I wasn't even trying to consider the cantrip regen in the above ~3,000 heals because you still get so much regen from just Woven Stride and Swift Revenge.

Stone Resonance on Water Builds is fantastic and you get a lot more use out of it because Water doesn't have barriers.

You could also like, I dunno, dodge? Aliam is a great roamer I've fought mutiple times before so I know they know what they're doing. But they also had two dodges remaining during the entire Soul Sprial. A Water Weaver would have dodged instead of eating it.

EDIT: A better way to show this off would be to point at the barrier that comes up from Lesser Stone Ressoance after the spin to win at around 20s. THAT shows the benefits of Barrier. Atleast when compared to Fire Weaver v Water Weaver barrier.

The issue stems from the design of sword.  It's designed to work against stationary targets.  No thought seems to have been given to how easily exploitable that is in PvP.  We aren't warriors with ready access to a multiple gap closers and hard CC on demand.  Outside of Gale, our hard CC is extremely limited and fairly ineffective, practically speaking.  This makes using dual attacks to deal damage pretty much impossible, yet that is where the damage is supposed to come from by design.

Both water and fire (sword) weavers struggle with this.  It's not about how much damage you can deal on paper or against a potato who wants to stand right in front of you while you tee off.  You can almost never deal enough damage with sword because you're forced to rely on a variety of low-damage effects and (if you're lucky) wear them down and then land the wombo combo off gale for the finish.

So, if your sustain is superior in either case, what's going to finish more fights will be bumping up the damage.  More pressure is what you need and it's not damage-on-paper, it's how much damage you can deliver in the short windows a smart opponent will allow.

If weaver had better mobility and control it could actually deliver damage more consistently and it wouldn't need such ridiculous levels of sustain.  In that scenario, the choice makes more sense.  I might actually need the things that water offers and can afford to give up some damage for it.  Currently, I am just not seeing it.  It's hard enough to finish fights with fire weaver.

[Sahne.6950]

59 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Well, hang on.  You're presenting this as if water weaver can't also trait barrier and slot 

Doublepost

Edited February 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

53 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Well, hang on.  You're presenting this as if water weaver can't also trait barrier and slot stone resonance

They actually cant if they want to have a way of cleansing with water.  They have to use 2 diffrent traits in weaver to gain regen from swiftness and to gain swiftness from dualattacks. Without that the build would lack a way of reliable cleansing compared to the fireweaver.

[Sahne.6950]

2 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I said it didn't count because I wasn't thinking about it when I wrote that statement. It was an incorrect phrase on my part, not that it isn't sustain and corrected my terminology. 

 

Fire Weaver enters Water to heal themselves up only, you have only one access to regen. If it gets stripped or you don't enter water, then you don't have any passive heals coming in at all other than from your Signet. If that regen gets tore from Water Weaver, its fine because basically anything they do will eventually lead to them reapplying Regen.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your comparisons with Barrier as to why its better, but you are vastly underestimating the usefulness of having the 3,000 HP floating around every 10 seconds in addition to your regular heals (which, as you said, is at about the same level of Fire Weaver.)

I mean do you not see where that barrier is coming from?  It's from the utility skill Stone Resonance...being used in a row twice...  which is not by any means a Fire Weaver only skill. If you wanna throw that on a Water Weaver build you'd only make them stronger. I've been trying to discuss this with the idea that we'd be using full cantrips (which is not really ideal nor how I would run a Water Weaver).  I wasn't even trying to consider the cantrip regen in the above ~3,000 heals because you still get so much regen from just Woven Stride and Swift Revenge.

Stone Resonance on Water Builds is fantastic and you get a lot more use out of it because Water doesn't have barriers.

You could also like, I dunno, dodge? Aliam is a great roamer I've fought mutiple times before so I know they know what they're doing. But they also had two dodges remaining during the entire Soul Sprial. A Water Weaver would have dodged instead of eating it.

EDIT: A better way to show this off would be to point at the barrier that comes up from Lesser Stone Ressoance after the spin to win at around 20s. THAT shows the benefits of Barrier. Atleast when compared to Fire Weaver v Water Weaver barrier.

100% agree with everything you said! I rly didnt think of the regen from the weaver traits at all! And i am aware that he was using stoneresonance. I suggested it aswell. I Was talking about that specific build or with lightningflash for casual roaming. 

But dont we all agree that there is very little reason to play waterweaver compared to fire besides going for a fullbunkerbuild? And at that point you would be betteroff going full minstrel or support tempest even. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

Wtf my phone keeps Posting. Im sorry

Edited February 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Wtf my phone keeps Posting. Im sorry

Lol

 

Well I'm enjoying the discussion so keep posting hahaha

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

Okay thoughts on this:

Fire/air/weaver.

Middle,  middle, bottom for air. 

You lose some protection, but the weakness can help make up for it. You lose some healing from the dodges but you deal more damage with lightning rod. More offense in the form of vulnerability, damage (lightning rod), and fury uptime but less healing due to dodges not healing. You also have superspeed when attuning to air, which means you can potentially skip the speed runes and go for Flock or something that gives some hp to make up for that loss.  

 

Obviously doesn't work well against stability but Stab usually only lasts a few seconds anyway on roamers, if the have any at all 

Edited February 2, 2022 by SlitheSlivier.1908

[Sahne.6950]

you are loosing reduction to attunmentswaps from arcane..

not sure about this one unfortunately. never played it or anything like it. but missing arcane is a big no in most builds.

if you ask me lightning rod on sword weaver is not good... you dont have alot of ways to CC as someone mentioned earlier. and lightningrod in general is not in a good spot at the moment.

if you want something fun to mess around on ele you should try 70%cele/30%marauder dagger/focus tempest. Fire/Earth/tempest. Then you take both of the ways of cleansing from fire and earth and add antitoxin rune ontop(Antitoxin if you want to troll|Rune of speed will be better overall here too cuz you can kite while overloading). Your damage will be rather p00p00 but it is VERY hard to kill you! If you take the bottom middle trait in tempest you will have some pretty nice selfsustain, but are rather exposed to CC when overloading. condibuilds can literally not hurt you at all! i had some weird moments where 3 condimirages where on me and they could not do anything. if your feeling funky you can swap earth with water at any point and become the supporter of the group. It is not a good build by any means but one you can have fun with and support the peeps around you at any time. If you put in some marauder pieces you will hurt a bit either! more marauder = more damage! I have gotten alot of kills with it and people will be rather surprised when dying to it^^

Also.. i dont know his name unfortunately... but some guy is uploading ele STAFF roaming videos at the moment.. he is oneshotting people with it and i tried that build aswell... VERY unforgiving but it works actually! maybe give that a shot aswell! he posted all of his builds under the video! both work

 

KEEP IN MIND ITS JUST FOR FUN! and no comparison to the OP Metabuilds that are dominant atm.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

13 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

you are loosing reduction to attunmentswaps from arcane..

not sure about this one unfortunately. never played it or anything like it. but missing arcane is a big no in most builds.

if you ask me lightning rod on sword weaver is not good... you dont have alot of ways to CC as someone mentioned earlier. and lightningrod in general is not in a good spot at the moment.

You have 4 tho 1 is in water. You get 2 more if you bring earth shield, which is actually pretty fun. 

[Sahne.6950]

hmm alright but still.

THE TRAIT ITSELF   is pretty garbage atm and not worth it really....

ANet butchered it unfortunately

The whole air trait is not really in a good spot same goes for water....

Air is only worth it on your traditional sceptre build IN MY OPINION...

same goes for water... outside of aurashare it doesnt have much use at the moment.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

4 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

hmm alright but still.

THE TRAIT ITSELF   is pretty garbage atm and not worth it really....

ANet butchered it unfortunately

The whole air trait is not really in a good spot same goes for water....

Air is only worth it on your traditional sceptre build IN MY OPINION...

same goes for water... outside of aurashare it doesnt have much use at the moment.

Fair fair. I kind of like air but it def has drawbacks, possibly too many to use it instead of arcane. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

24 minutes ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

Fair fair. I kind of like air but it def has drawbacks, possibly too many to use it instead of arcane. 

That's pretty much been my experience as well.  Air seems like it should work pretty well and it does.  It's just seems to me that arcane performs better and even more than that it just feels better.  Evasive arcana is one of my favorite traits and the attunement swap cooldown reduction is really nice, too.  Even if water, earth, or air can work (they can!), I'd really need them to be clearly better performers to give up arcane.

Still, it works pretty well and you can make a build of it.