Dragon's End Meta - I Love It

[Nuunes.5046]

[Removed]

Edited July 29, 2022 by Nuunes.5046

[Erise.5614]

10 minutes ago, KurokouNekoki.7891 said:

Yet, outside changing the mechanics and rebalancing the event, as you suggested a few times before, what are YOU suggesting?

Personally I think I'd like for the timer to simply be removed or doubling or something like that. Keep all mechanics but make sure it completes consistently. Maybe tie additional rewards and some additional mechanics behind clearing speed so there is a nice learning curve and improvement over the next months. But making sure base line completion is possible early on and reasonably consistent.

So hardcore players can keep feeling great about themselves while everyone can have some feeling of progress, success and learning. 

Most mechanics are fine. The frustration of failing is the bad part.

But frankly, I'm not too concerned with finding solutions myself. It's not your nor my job to find a solution. I (happily) pay for this game so people working for ANet can do good work. So that's what I expect of them. Finding good solutions. 

I was just pointing out that shifting blame onto players like that isn't good. The blame is and ought to be 100% on ArenaNet. Complaining about "111111 pressers", "afkers", etc. is not looking at the problem right. It's an elitist attitude that has no place in open world.

If they build a dragonstorm style encounter of higher difficulty? Amazing! I'm happy for everyone who enjoys it! 

But open world is different. Every barrier you create to force them to play in a very specific way is an annoyance for many. There have to be options to decide yourself what and how you want to play. Barriers must be the other way around. With a low base level and additional challenge I get to add ontop of that. Not excluding people from core content with harsher and harsher rules or behavior or paying them to leave. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[KurokouNekoki.7891]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

Personally I think I'd like just a removal of doubling of the timer. Keep all mechanics but make sure it can be completed. Maybe tie additional rewards to speed or something like that. So hardcore players can keep feeling great about themselves while everyone can succeed.

Most mechanics are fine. The frustration of failing is the bad part.

But frankly, I'm not too concerned with finding solutions myself. It's not your nor my job to find a solution. I (happily) pay for this game so people working for ANet can do good work. So that's what I expect of them. Finding good solutions. 

I was just pointing out that shifting blame onto players like that isn't good. The blame is and ought to be 100% on ArenaNet. Complaining about "111111 pressers", "afkers", etc. is not looking at the problem right. It's an elitist attitude that has no place in open world.

If they build a dragonstorm style encounter of higher difficulty? Amazing! I'm happy for everyone who enjoys it! 

But open world is different. Every barrier you create to force them to play in a very specific way is an annoyance for many. There have to be options to decide yourself what and how you want to play. Barriers must be the other way around. With a low base level and additional challenge I get to add ontop of that. Not excluding people from core content with harsher and harsher rules or behavior or paying them to leave. 

Admitedly yeah, you ARE right in the fact anet hasn't addressed the "Toxic Inducing" behaviors yet, but that is the only "implication" that Anet has in this matter. Would they be more forceful in fighting that "tendency" I think would solve a lot of current issues both with the meta and out.

In a way, I did get you completely wrong from your previous posts.

But in a way, I think we ALL have a share of responsability in everything we do, interact with or enjoy.

- ANet not focusing on inforcing friendlier relations between the players.
- The Legitimate Trying Players for not reporting to ANet enough (apparently) about those, because of the "Shush and Smile" mindset.
- And the Trolls who just gets the win in the end for being terrible people (did not mentionned AFKers here btw).

[artar.2759]

At this point, I'm of a mind to just remove that phase altogether.  Just remove it.  The entire experience is already long enough and visually impressive and abrasive at the same time.  

- Pop the tail = remove some hp, cause it's a part of her still?  Don't understand why it doesn't.

- Remove the green circles and the wisp part.  Just pop up crystals, do the platform flush if not blocking with them, and move on.  That or pause the timer for this.  That way it is troll proof - either get through it fast and continue on, or a max of a couple mins to breathe if it is going to fail without failing the meta.

- The 2 and 3 sub bosses that pop up, don't make them need to be killed/kept together.

 

That solves the greens issues, the hp total issue people saying not enough time, and makes it more friendly to everyone without having to try to communicate that to a map when not everyone necessarily has map chat on.

[Caitybee.3614]

1 hour ago, kharny.3284 said:

just was offered money to leave the map....yea this is totally working as intended....

I called it, told you this happens now.

[Erise.5614]

14 minutes ago, KurokouNekoki.7891 said:

Admitedly yeah, you ARE right in the fact anet hasn't addressed the "Toxic Inducing" behaviors yet, but that is the only "implication" that Anet has in this matter. Would they be more forceful in fighting that "tendency" I think would solve a lot of current issues both with the meta and out.

In a way, I did get you completely wrong from your previous posts.

But in a way, I think we ALL have a share of responsability in everything we do, interact with or enjoy.

- ANet not focusing on inforcing friendlier relations between the players.
- The Legitimate Trying Players for not reporting to ANet enough (apparently) about those, because of the "Shush and Smile" mindset.
- And the Trolls who just gets the win in the end for being terrible people (did not mentionned AFKers here btw).

Sounds nice in theory but is fundamentally doomed. You prevent negative behavior not through enforcement and negative feedback. But rather by taking away opportunity or purpose. For example, when moderating a forum the best way to get abusive users to stop is not through bans but rather by unknowingly hiding their posts. The reason they post is because they want to know and see other people getting hurt by it. If you take away that feedback they usually stop fairly quickly.

Chat filters, forcing certain playstyles, etc. will only result in more people deliberately working against these systems, more people getting sensitive to these topics (because now it's officially enforced behavior. Anyone deviating is therefore bad) and you just have your next negative behavior spiral. All while punishing legitimate players who can't adhere to these standards or would prefer not to for lots of valid reasons. 

It's a nice dream but it does not work in reality. Punishing people for not acting right always has the opposite effect. You have to take away the reason for them to act that way and give people the tools to self police beyond that their own spaces (e.g. guilds or instanced content)

Edited March 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[ugrakarma.9416]

46 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

And it's completely normal for open world. After all, it's intentionally designed to be without any barriers at all. 

To casually meet people, group up, do something and split apart. Meta events are already pushing it in terms of design. They are excellent but need to be designed very carefully to not go against this core reality.

There are areas in the game deliberately designed for coordinated group content and with the tools to act against such behavior. Open world ain't that. And neither of these behaviors should have an impact on the outcome so long as a strong majority of people make an honest effort to contribute.

Neither wisps nor AFKers should make a difference. 

Protection against this means forced disconnects upon being AFK, forced disconnects upon doing the wrong thing, getting kicked if you don't do the right thing. And, wow! Look at that! We have a 50 man raid instance. Which honestly could be cool for people who like that sort of content. But it doesn't belong in the open world.

Designing anything even remotely approaching that is a very fundamental failure on ANets part. If not a fundamental misunderstanding of their own game. 

also force remove afkers in a 1hr preparation meta is another elitist non-sense, so i have stop to drink water and then "u lose everything". im near 40yo, i hardly tolerate 2hrs non-stop gameplay these days.

[Deihnyx.6318]

18 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

also force remove afkers in a 1hr preparation meta is another elitist non-sense, so i have stop to drink water and then "u lose everything". im near 40yo, i hardly tolerate 2hrs non-stop gameplay these days.

There's a middleground in everything. But yes, during the main fight you're not expected to afk and that's not an elitist behavior at all. For dragonstorm you would hear everyone complain about it, casual or not. And that's not a hard fight. The frustration comes from working for someone else, slowing down your own progress, while they make no effort to commit to something.
It is utterly disrespectful, simple as that.
 

[Widowmaker Z.4802]

1 hour ago, kharny.3284 said:

just was offered money to leave the map....yea this is totally working as intended....

This might be a way to make gold, go idle on the map and wait for an offer lol.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Widowmaker Z.4802
Spelling

[Erise.5614]

8 minutes ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

There's a middleground in everything. But yes, during the main fight you're not expected to afk and that's not an elitist behavior at all. For dragonstorm you would hear everyone complain about it, casual or not. And that's not a hard fight. The frustration comes from working for someone else, slowing down your own progress, while they make no effort to commit to something.
It is utterly disrespectful, simple as that.
 

It wouldn't be a problem if the game adapted appropriately. Not participating doesn't need to give rewards. Rewards can scale with duration of effort put in and the meta can scale with the number of active participants. Not down to 2 but maybe down to 40 or 50 people. 

Like, if it was an instanced map exclusively for the event. Sure. But there are things such as fishing (with map specific achievements) and pure jade (exclusive to DE) where people can legitimately not contribute and not have any ill intent. Or your baby crying in the room next door and you having to go for some amount of time. You don't know how long. Is it really right to strip a person like that from an hour or more of their time because of that? Or better yet, fail an entire map of 60+ people because of something silly like that? 

Open world has to adapt to the players. Not the other way around. If players need to adapt to the event there needs to be proper tools and it should be opt in. With nothing fundamental to the game locked behind it. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Deihnyx.6318]

20 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

It wouldn't be a problem if the game adapted appropriately. Not participating doesn't need to give rewards. Rewards can scale with duration of effort put in and the meta can scale with the number of active participants. Not down to 2 but maybe down to 40 or 50 people. 

Like, if it was an instanced map exclusively for the event. Sure. But there are things such as fishing (with map specific achievements) and pure jade (exclusive to DE) where people can legitimately not contribute and not have any ill intent. Or your baby crying in the room next door and you having to go for some amount of time. You don't know how long. Is it really right to strip a person like that from an hour or more of their time because of that? 

Open world has to adapt to the players. Not the other way around. If players need to adapt to the event there needs to be proper tools and it should be opt in. With nothing fundamental to the game locked behind it. 

Oh I agree with that. I do think the event needs to scale based on the number of active players, not max players in a map. I am specifically referring to "afking" while also being part of the event, which is sadly fairly common. Yes Anet should assume these players are gonna be there and no event should fail because of the 'worst' 10% players on a map, but we shouldn't "excuse" them if they don't even try.

And nobody will blame you for afking for the pre-events. The event itself is 20 minutes, not 2 hours.

At the end of the day though, it's ok after 10 years for a meta to be little bit more demanding than a boss from vanilla Tyria. We had these conversations since Auric Basin and it hasn't stopped. People do figure things out in time and the success rate goes up. Everyone gets the 20% buff from participating in events, everyone gets their jade bot buff and it's already a lot easier.

Anet tends to wait a few weeks to see what the actual success rate is (after people got used to the fight), then if it's still too low, they will balance it. I think this one will get some nerfing and there's been good ideas in this thread -freezing time during wisps feels like a good option similar to what the Teq fight does- but it shouldn't be a guaranteed win either, nothing like "doubling time" or "removing mechanics". They could also make it faster to retry to motivate people to learn the fight.

And If the turtle collection really is the concern, then i'm sure there can be alternative ways to get it. Then again people are quickly going to find out this collection has some more of that slightly more challenging content tied to it anyway.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Deihnyx.6318

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I don't want it to be nerfed, just rebalanced slightly.

 

Extend the duration of the timer by 4-5mins and most metas will succeed. There should be a risk of failing, but on average it should be like 10-15%, not 80-90% like it is now.

 

Look at Drakkar, its has a risk of failure but can usually be completed with coordination.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Lukian Darkblade.8012]

7 hours ago, KurokouNekoki.7891 said:

What is this? A School Expose?

Four kills, grats on them, but that also bragging when you know the state of things.

 

I really don't mean it as bragging but more to show that I do have experience in the fight and how much I've enjoyed it so far to continue attempting the fight. For every kill, we've had at least 1 loss. The other points in your post are valid but I really wanted to share how much I enjoy doing this meta event.

 

5 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

People keep saying greens are a tool for trolling and griefing. But really, they aren't. It truly seems to me ANet fully intended for every fight to include 3-4 minutes of wisps.

 

I definitely agree with you on believe ArenaNet intended on people doing wisps this long. I point out many times to my squads that complain about people griefing that as long as we all use complete the other mechanics and have high DPS, the wisp time doesn't matter.

 

3 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Get the idea this post was made to stir up reactions since it seems this person joined just to post it. 

 

I actually have posts from years ago but it seems so long ago that those are no longer tied to my account anymore. I didn't want to stir up reactions. I wanted to share how much I enjoyed the fight and hope that my insight could help others see the perspective from someone who does enjoy it. Unfortunately it feels like the post was made to be a joke with all of the "Confused" reactions and on top of that, reading the additional negativity in this topic so far just makes me want to remove the post.

 

2 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Four confirmed take downs.  How many fails?

 

I think in total I've had 5 or 6 fails? Give or take 1 but I do know it's close to even on how many kills.

 

1 hour ago, Liewec.2896 said:

but thats the thing, Anet hid the siege turtle mount behind this event, people don't want to hold out, we want our turtles dammit!

 

I definitely understand but that is also slightly my point. Seeing how ArenaNet has treated previous challenging content, this meta will almost definitely be balanced to make things easier for everyone. For now I just really enjoy everyone coming together to get the kill, but unfortunately many of the maps fail so it's all about making sure you get in with the right group or set one up yourself.

 

2 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

this meta will end like marionnete if they don't adjust, some "challenge hunters" will keep trying on first months, then, will be dead and empty.

 

This is why I believe the Turtle Mount is locked behind the meta event. Otherwise, why really come do the 1+ hours worth of work? This way, people should always be doing the event unlike places like Dragon's Stand but we will just have to see what the future brings.

[Erise.5614]

33 minutes ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

At the end of the day though, it's ok after 10 years for a meta to be little bit more demanding than a boss from vanilla Tyria. We had these conversations since Auric Basin and it hasn't stopped. People do figure things out in time and the success rate goes up.

How about you tell that to Doppelganger?

Everything got nerfed hard to become enjoyable. But what if ANet would stop making metas that need to get nerfed into the ground but rather focus on novelty, some mechanics but also focusing on high clear rates from the beginning? Wouldn't that be neat? That way they could even escalate difficulty slowly over time, introduce harder versions of the same events and so on. A nice, smooth progression curve.

As it stands, the meta is absurd and will get nerfed into the ground before soon. Simply repeating the cycle once again.

[Deihnyx.6318]

56 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

How about you tell that to Doppelganger?

Everything got nerfed hard to become enjoyable. But what if ANet would stop making metas that need to get nerfed into the ground but rather focus on novelty, some mechanics but also focusing on high clear rates from the beginning? Wouldn't that be neat? That way they could even escalate difficulty slowly over time, introduce harder versions of the same events and so on. A nice, smooth progression curve.

As it stands, the meta is absurd and will get nerfed into the ground before soon. Simply repeating the cycle once again.

"Enjoyable" is really subjective.
I do find that meta enjoyable, so do most people I play with. The frustration from losing doesn't necessarily mean not enjoyable, but winning after multiple defeats feels great.
On the contrary, I find faceroll types of meta (including dragonstand) not enjoyable. The success rate is 100% but mechanics can be ignored and then it becomes a matter of spamming buttons for 15 minutes.

Some people will have the exact opposite opinion, and that's fine. That's why we still have Dragonstand types of meta too.

As for "from the beginning", we're not at the beginning of the game. We're 10 years from that. Easy bosses were introduced already and mechanics have been added over time. It wasn't always smooth by any mean but fights got progressively more diverse and more demanding of players.

They did exactly what you're describing with varying degrees of success. And for every single new step there were players complaining. Teq was too hard at some point too, it even caused the creation of a specific guild just for that. Then Triple Trouble, Shatterer, Auric Bassin, TD... all were too hard at first.

And yes, some got some level of nerfing, I don't think anyone's really saying this EoD fight is perfect and shouldn't be balanced, but they are right to ask a bit more of players at this stage of the game. It just needs some tweaking after Anet gets a stable success rate in a week or two.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Deihnyx.6318

[Erise.5614]

27 minutes ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

"Enjoyable" is really subjective.
I do find that meta enjoyable, so do most people I play with. The frustration from losing doesn't necessarily mean not enjoyable, but winning after multiple defeats feels great.
On the contrary, I find faceroll types of meta (including dragonstand) not enjoyable. The success rate is 100% but mechanics can be ignored and then it becomes a matter of spamming buttons for 15 minutes.

Some people will have the exact opposite opinion, and that's fine. That's why we still have Dragonstand types of meta too.

As for "from the beginning", we're not at the beginning of the game. We're 10 years from that. Easy bosses were introduced already and mechanics have been added over time. It wasn't always smooth by any mean but fights got progressively more diverse and more demanding of players.

They did exactly what you're describing with varying degrees of success. And for every single new step there were players complaining. Teq was too hard at some point too, it even caused the creation of a specific guild just for that. Then Triple Trouble, Shatterer, Auric Bassin, TD... all were too hard at first.

And yes, some got some level of nerfing, I don't think anyone's really saying this EoD fight is perfect and shouldn't be balanced, but they are right to ask a bit more of players at this stage of the game. It just needs some tweaking after Anet gets a stable success rate in a week or two.

The difference is, that people looking for harder challenges can easily be accommodated by instanced content. 

Even metas could have instanced CM versions for people like you. With appropriate rewards and everything! I'm totally fine with that! 

What you're advocating for is just completely leaving people who want less than that behind. To run with an "eat or die" mentality. Only that "die" means they quit and harm the community, overall revenue and future of the game. So really, you're gambling that a very strong majority of people who you wanna "ask a bit more" of will eat it. And killing the spirit of GW2 in the process.

A game that's always been a safe haven for casual MMO players when others just do not support that kind of playstyle. 

Just to be clear. I'm saying your way of enjoying the game is valid and ought to be supported. You say the way I enjoy the game is wrong and should be killed. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Mark.2068]

That horrible and unbalanced meta must be nerfed.

Patetic content.

[ugrakarma.9416]

1 hour ago, Lukian Darkblade.8012 said:

This is why I believe the Turtle Mount is locked behind the meta event. Otherwise, why really come do the 1+ hours worth of work? This way, people should always be doing the event unlike places like Dragon's Stand but we will just have to see what the future brings.

but should remind that turtle is a near "cosmetic" mount, with a very niche use.

[Deihnyx.6318]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

Just to be clear. I'm saying your way of enjoying the game is valid and ought to be supported. You say the way I enjoy the game is wrong and should be killed. 

 

Now where did I say that?

Some people will have the exact opposite opinion, and that's fine. That's why we still have Dragonstand types of meta too.

Well I meant Dragonstorm actually, ugh these names confuse me. But Dragonstand works too anyway.

And actually, most of my friends left the game -because- raids were killed, and the strikes that replaced them were not anywhere close to the same experience (the new strikes are much better now admittedly but i doubt it brings everyone back with only 4 of them and no CM). And that's after killing dungeons too. WvW is almost in the same state as when HoT released, no new mechanics beside that one mount, no new maps in forever, and a lot of my guildies think about leaving.

And these are also people driving the game on social networks. It's not just toxic people.

No, the only thing that remains consistent is these meta events and open world. The large majority of the effort of Anet is on that. And here's there one meta that is slightly more demanding, sure, and not a week in we've already got people trying to kill it. I feel like while your probably don't mean it what you're asking kind of goes the other way around. Because there's really not much in terms of more challenging content.

At least give them a couple weeks to do their usual balancing. These events are really hard to get right with limited QA, I'm sure they will fix the few issues that makes it frustrating.

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Deihnyx.6318

[Erise.5614]

48 minutes ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

And actually, most of my friends left the game -because- raids were killed, and the strikes that replaced them were not anywhere close to the same experience

Well, fair enough. Let me give you a cheeky, slightly modified quote as answer to that. 

"Some people will have the exact opposite opinion, and that's fine. That's why we still have Raids too."

They aren't dead. They still exist. They just didn't release more. I know, this argument isn't in good faith. I'll get into why I suspect this to be the thing. But lack of updates for hardcore content isn't a good argument for preventing access at all to the only two player mount in the game. 

48 minutes ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

And these are also people driving the game on social networks. It's not just toxic people.

I don't believe any of those people are inherently toxic. It's the style of content that incentivizes certain behavior if you want to optimize your playtime. Considering it's aimed at a min/max crowd I seriously can't fault the vast, vast majority of people for how they behave. 
But I don't have to enjoy it either. I was worried when they added raids about hardcore content changing the dynamic within the community and it's just gotten worse in exactly the way I expected. It should, at the very least, remain clearly separated. With smooth paths towards harder content and metas as a judgement free training and learning ground. Where you can engage and understand more if you so choose and then branch out deliberately seeking harder content. Or not, if you don't want to. 

48 minutes ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

No, the only thing that remains consistent is these meta events and open world. The large majority of the effort of Anet is on that.

Two points on that. First of all, the amount of effort is clearly distributed proportionate to adoption. Open world metas are what sets GW apart. Hardcore content is what brings it in line with titles like WoW or FFXIV. What sets it apart is that explicit focus on casual enjoyment. It shows in its history and it shows in player adoption of content. 

But even so, ANet has always tried to push more and more hardcore content. Almost every new meta was an attempt at introducing higher difficulty. At requiring better usage of mechanics, more awareness, more everything. Dungeons, Fractals, Strikes. All attempts at smoothing out the curve towards hardcore content. Without understanding that it's really not the content itself that makes it unenjoyable. 

It's the entire dynamic. Of the gameplay, of the community, of organization and structuring your life around the game. 

I'm all for introducing CMs and sure, why not even harder content. CCMs or what not. Shorten timers, pump those HP and defiance numbers, reduce the margin of failure, add more rewards.

But the separation is important. To make it a deliberate choice to engage with it. 

The challenge ANet has to solve is making casual content enjoyable without drawing out the hardcore community behavior. It's not that these people are bad, it's just that it changes the entire game experience significantly. And that's what's driven me away every time I ended up taking a long pause. Having gotten in contact with these parts of the game and community too much. It burns me out quick and hard. 

48 minutes ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

At least give them a couple weeks to do their usual balancing. These events are really hard to get right with limited QA, I'm sure they will fix the few issues that makes it frustrating.

Seriously not ok when the headline mount and a key feature of my purchase is locked behind it.

If that's the expectation then the turtle mount should simply be a longer collection with time gates and the meta at the end. So people rushing for legendaries will figure it out and grind it immediately while casual players will join in a week or two later. 

And then remove the time gates throughout the next couple of months. Right now it's (miss)leading too many people into the event for a terrible experience. Being inherently frustrating and advertising the worst behavior the hardcore community has to offer. It's bad for every aspect of content. 

Let's hope it doesn't drive people away long term. I know it will stick out as one of the worst experiences I've had in this game for a long time.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Deihnyx.6318]

33 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Let's hope it doesn't drive people away long term. I know it will stick out as one of the worst experiences I've had in this game for a long time.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I'll simply say though that similar things were said for a lot of previous meta that are thoroughly enjoyed today. If AB didn't have the curve in difficulty and was still as bland as vanilla bosses I don't think it would be as highly regarded today.

The heart of your argument seems to be that this meta is trying to match some of the more challenging content such as raids. It's really not, it is a step up for sure but I doubt the intent was to be more than a Drakkar or a Triple Trouble (which also needs to be organized to succeed).

Like you said there should be smooth paths towards more challenging content. This is one of them, there needs to be some and it can't just be fractals which have their own... reputation, on top of being more and more irrelevant mechanics-wise.

Another thing also is that map wide meta with organized group have no CM equivalent right now. There could be? And that would make a difference, but there's not. The closest thing to this kind of organized mass group content is WvW, and we all know it's dying for lack of care even though it was one of the more innovative ideas of this game.

I understand the comparison with raid and "hardcore" with how things are right now, but again I doubt this was their intention to make it so difficult that only 5% of the attempts work. Pretty much everyone agrees that this needs tweaking, with  the wisps mechanics potentially wasting everyone's time and all, there is ground for improvement.

Regarding the mount I agree, I find strange that they did this way. Even more that the follow up collection include a strike and not necessarily the most straightforward. The meta doesn't have to be tied to the mount, I don't even see how it makes sense in the lore.
Then again, maybe the sticking crowd isn't that casual and there's more people wanting that type of content. It's hard to think outside of our bubbles and none of us really have the numbers.
I will say though regarding advertising that the gryphon was not advertised and people tried to nerf it all the same. Same happened with the Skyscale, which was a free addition.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Deihnyx.6318
typos and stuff... sorry

[Deihnyx.6318]

I'll just add that the few groups i've done it with on discord the ambience was simply amazing, maybe better than WvW, and absolutely not toxic like raids sometimes end up being. This was a very unique experience if you're not in large guilds, and this wouldn't have happened with low requirement type of meta.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Deihnyx.6318

[Erise.5614]

18 minutes ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

I understand the comparison with raid and "hardcore" with how things are right now

But that's the point in time they pushed a huge amount of excited casual players into it. Knowingly. 

 

18 minutes ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

I will say though regarding advertising that the gryphon was not advertised and people tried to nerf it all the same. Same happened with the Skyscale, which was a free addition.

But to be fair. That was about the way feeling too long. Not about any step being such a hard barrier. And they even explicitly responded, promising it'd be shorter. In hindsight they meant amount of steps and not playtime. Which still feels misleading. 

The issue really is that they intentionally made the event much harder than usual. Even explicitly stated so, expecting it to fail a ton initially. And binding the turtle behind an extremely difficult strike. Harvest temple is easily comparable to several of the more advanced raid bosses. I'm not even there and already dreading having to do it. 

It's an incredibly cheap and incredibly obvious way to get as many people as possible to play this hardcore content with a much higher engagement than is usual. Which in reality just means they will frustrate themselves much more than usual. And hopefully not more than they are willing to endure. 

That's why it was advertised so heavily. That's why it's locked by things that don't fit thematically. That's why this expansion and specifically DE are a thoroughly terrible experience to me and a lot of people in my social circle. 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Deihnyx.6318]

8 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

But that's the point in time they pushed a huge amount of excited casual players into it. Knowingly. 

 

But to be fair. That was about the way feeling too long. Not about any step being such a hard barrier.

The issue really is that they intentionally made the event much harder than usual. Even explicitly stated so, expecting it to fail a ton initially. And binding the turtle behind an extremely difficult strike. Harvest temple is easily comparable to several of the more advanced raid bosses. I'm not even there and already dreading having to do it. 

It's an incredibly cheap and incredibly obvious way to get as many people as possible to play this hardcore content with a much higher engagement than is usual. Which in reality just means they will frustrate themselves much more than usual. And hopefully not more than they are willing to endure. 

That's why it was advertised so heavily. That's why it's locked by things that don't fit thematically. That's why this expansion and specifically DE are a thoroughly terrible experience to me and a lot of people in my social circle. 

 

I don't know their QA team, but I can't imagine it being easy to QA massive multiplayer content like that and get it right immediately.

If anything with the patch that just released they're showing they want to reward mechanics done right more. And to me these changes make sense and should make a difference. I have no doubt that in a month when we revisit this thread this meta will have a much higher success rate.

I hope you come to enjoy it when it's refined a little bit more!

[Alcatraznc.3869]

12 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

People keep saying greens are a tool for trolling and griefing. But really, they aren't. It truly seems to me ANet fully intended for every fight to include 3-4 minutes of wisps.

 

Such mecanic work in instanced map like fractal, story mission, raid and strike because you have control or trust over other players. One player decides to troll ? boot him. A new player attempts that mecanic for the first time ? People will definitely be more chill and try to help him in the process. But as of right now we dont know whether those who are doing the wisp are genuinely new player or trolls who are just looking to sabotage the run. This really turn a run into frustration and salt.

 

Anet want us to do the wisp part and if I was a level designer and someone ignore a phase I worked on it, I would be mad. But even within this community which is overall pretty nice and chill, there are trolls who dont want other to win. 

 

For OW meta event, the wisp part should have been like this : everyone turns into a wisp and as long as X players manages to reach the top, the meta event continues. That way trolls cannot sabotage the run and new player can learn the mecanic without compromising the run.