I feel IBS map design was a loss overall

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I've been thinking about putting this into words for some time, but hadn't got around to it.

 

Back when Icebrood Saga first started, I was one of the many advocates that the map design of previous seasons needed to be rethought. I was tired of so many maps, always having to keep up with them with each new story, and how it always felt like we left places behind without fully fleshing them out.

The map design in IBS was meant to fix this by releasing one map over two chapters, more similar to how LWS2 was designed. However, the more I thought about it the more I realised this actually made me dislike the season as a whole. It didn't bring me the kind of satisfaction I thought it would, because instead of feeling like the maps were getting doubled up on attention,  lore, etc, it felt like the expansion of each map took away from the original version, or even overshadowed it completely.

 

Take Drizzlewood for example. I like the north meta, but I also enjoyed the (slower) south meta immensely, and would've preferred it to stay as it was. However by combining both maps into one, the overall meta became too long and players asked for it to be shortened. As a result, south meta mostly got axed and went from a game of "capture and hold" to just "capture and move on", which severely reduced the fun to me and turned it into just a loot train. It has good gold per hour, but its no Silverwastes 2.0.

 

Bjora was affected similarly, once Drakkar was added players rarely stay around for doing Storms of Winter afterwards, and if players are doing it at all you likely have to find a different map and a different group in the LFG than the one that did Drakkar. This is because Drakkar is a world boss that players join and then leave, taking away from the overall impact of  the map as a whole.

 

The last factor is, I felt like the best season for map design was LWS3, not because the maps were exceptional--they were mostly small and only really had enough content to tell the story--but because they took us to many places and were very imagineable in their environments. We were literally able to go anywhere in Tyria and the devs weren't afraid to experiment, with each map being radically different from the last.

 

Meanwhile, Grothmar Valley, the one map we got that blends design aspects of all Living World seasons, is heralded as one of the best in the game.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Vayne.8563]

Okay this is a well thought out post. Great job.

I really loved Grothmar.   I didn't particularly like Bjora, but I certainly like the Drakkar meta better than the Storms meta. I mean, the Storms meta doesn't really make sense to me.  We build some siege, and we protect these areas during an attack, during which saboteurs run up with bombs, but the bombs don't actually damage the infrastructure, only the players, so they can be ignored. 

It's a long defense event, afterwards, no matter how well we do, the stuff we were defending blows up anyway. Which all leads to a boss that never actually really attacks us.  The whole thing just seems weird to me. It's certainly not satisfying.

The Drakkar meta on the other hand, feels like I'm actually fighting something that makes a difference.

 

On the topic of Drizzlewood, I too far prefer the south to the north.

 

My big thing with the maps that annoyed me the most was that I always complete maps when they come out, and I get a reward for it. But if I do that with the first half, I have to wait for the second half to complete the map, but I already got the reward for completing the first half, making completing the second half anti-climactic.

Yep, I think the half map strategy either needs to be abandoned or improved.

[Omega.6801]

They did the design right in Dry Top though. When the second half was reveiled, the sandstorm meta was just expanded to the first half. Given, people were used to have less things to do, so in the period where only the first halfwas available, it felt a bit boring.

However, I actually like the one new map per release model better. Either that or something like one map every two releases, but the second release just adds to the existing map things like vendors, previously hidden areas, events. Of course this is much harder to do without changing the feel of the maps original release...
I know exactly what OP is talking about with Bjora. The first  half feels as empty as it gets in GW2 and the drizzlewood south meta was more interesting before the north meta was added. Both maps are great, don't get me wrong. Bjora has a great feel and Drizzlewood is a great big experience beside being a gooldfarm once the experience wears off.

[Einlanzer.1627]

I agree with pretty much all of your points. The one thing I think is a potential issue is that too many map releases with too many meta events risks spreading the population too thin, which has arguably already happened more than is ideal.

Honestly, though, the right way to solve that is to mix up new content more than they historically have. For a few years now there has been an over-focus on Living World/story expansion and not enough focus on anything else including instanced content, WVW maps, and systems expansions. Even among new normal PVE maps, there should be a combination of meta-focused maps and more casual/exploration zones. It's just better for the game than releasing new meta PVE zerg after new meta PVE zerg - we kind of have plenty of that already and the addition of new should slow down.

Having rotating bonuses with different meta-oriented maps is also a good way to keep things dynamic and interesting. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Einlanzer.1627

[Gorem.8104]

I only did IBS like 2 months before EOD release and really? So on release you actually had to capture and hold the camps? That is rather interesting. I have been wondering why it seems you can just run and capture all points and just win the south meta without ever needing to transport like any yaks or defend much at all besides like, the moment you capture a point and do events around it. And why when I do try and do those events, no one shows up. That makes a lotta sense now that they had to change it due to tacking on the north meta. 

Dry Top works cause its short, it doesn't take a long time investment to do and you have everyone who is there running between events and then running and opening chests. Sometimes simple is good. The thing is really, the games gotten huge now and may need more people playing then it currently has to fill all possible meta maps. Having the last meta in EoD take 2 hours is not helping matters. People that used to be spread around may end up doing that then logging off now if they can only play for that time space. 

[Labjax.2465]

14 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Dry Top works cause its short, it doesn't take a long time investment to do and you have everyone who is there running between events and then running and opening chests. Sometimes simple is good. The thing is really, the games gotten huge now and may need more people playing then it currently has to fill all possible meta maps. Having the last meta in EoD take 2 hours is not helping matters. People that used to be spread around may end up doing that then logging off now if they can only play for that time space. 

And things like collections being tied to a number of metas is a double edged sword. On the one hand, it keeps people coming back for a long time. On the other hand, if the majority of active players have completed it and moved onto another collection from another meta, that leaves behind all the latecomers who need the meta completion to get their collection done and have to struggle to make it happen, while those who were there during peak times had a much easier time with it. (Which incidentally ties into all the discourse of late about spec difficulty and soloing content, or close to soloing it: ironically, it's the hardcore players who have been here the whole time who are less likely to need to do hard stuff with fewer people, while the less experienced newer or returning players are more likely to need to on account of stuff getting less attention from people being spread out and chasing the newest content.)

I don't have any proposed solutions, just adding to some thoughts about problems with this system. Personally, I've still been able to find people doing Dragon's Stand all these years later, so things aren't all in dire straits or anything. But I did see somewhat of a drop in participation when the expansion came out and I wouldn't be surprised if it stays lower now there is another major meta in the new xpac.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[KeoLegend.5132]

i want more Revisiting maps in next LW.

I had to return to Ember Bay to make a Legendary and it took 3 minutes browsing the map trying to find where the heck Ember Bay was. When i finnaly found it and got in i explored it again like it was the first time. It was great (altought Stresfull Jumping Puzzle for Mursaat Tokens, but w/e)

[Shiyo.3578]

12 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Meanwhile, Grothmar Valley, the one map we got that blends design aspects of all Living World seasons, is heralded as one of the best in the game.

By who? I don't even have the page for that zone because it's not worth the karma.