Turtle collection was a mistake...

[Erise.5614]

I believe ANet made two very big mistakes with the turtle and the experience into EOD. Neither having much to do with Dragon's End. Which was and still is messed up in a few ways, though that's frankly not unexpected.

1. Story leading into Dragon's End.
   Yes, storytelling wise it makes absolute sense. But by pushing players through the story into Dragon's End it means there is a very high chance it's the first non story content player will experience. Sure, catching a fish here or collecting an insight there. But realistically, most players will play the story and end up in Dragon's End. However, as epic finale that has some challenge associated with it, it doesn't serve this purpose. It shouldn't be the first thing most players do.
2. Meta's always need fixing.
   Not necessarily nerfing. Sometimes yes, but DE seems to mostly need two things fixed. Wisps (already happened) and what the boss does. Tail and break bar simultaneously are a problem. It takes away a huge opportunity for DPS with nothing you can do to avoid it. It's just RNG. Random attack selection, one of which making the boss invulnerable for a significant amount of time means some groups can have significantly less time available. These are real issues that can be fixed and make the fight much more pleasant if not genuinely epic. 
   There's difficulty issues with new metas, sure. But there were also lots of crashes, bugs, broken mechanics or exploits. That make it needlessly harder to understand the strategy and succeed regardless whether or not everyone plays excellent or not. Regardless of difficulty. 

The combination of these two created a frustrating experience for many people. I'm not sure if ANet deliberately built this frustration in or if they never thought about what it means that completion rates will start out really low when putting the turtle collection behind it. But it's a big problem.

 

My suggestion would therefore be to change the collection in the following ways asap:

1.  It should be unlocked when you play the second last story instance that leads you into DE.
   You can fail it once but immediately have the new goal of getting your turtle and leave DE for the time being. Less chance to build up frustration with such a long meta event.
2. Add another phase to the collection at the end.
   The first steps of the collection are fine. But after you have geared up your turtle and finished all current steps, turn the final step into a triumphant finale. Make Dragon's End the last and final step of the collection. 

 

Why? Why these changes and how does it make things better? 

By giving people something else to do right before attempting DE it takes away incentive to try over and over. Hardcore players will end up grinding it first and can figure out the mechanics and strategies. ANet has more time fixing the fight and can ensure that more casual players have at least the experience they intended. Not necessarily easy but stable and working as intended. 

And on the other hand. It puts the harder content last. By leading players through all other metas and some strikes first it gives everyone time to get more familiar with their new elite specs and offers more time for returning players to get into the game again. Before requiring completion. Turning Dragon's End into the triumphant finale it appears to be intended as. Rather than a frustrating road block right after story and initial exploration. Aka about a quarter through the new expansion content. 

[Gibson.4036]

A selling point feature of the expansion should not be gated behind a challenging meta and strike mission. Especially when it was billed as being on par with aquiring the roller beetle.

Moving the order around will not change this.

[Einsof.1457]

3 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

A selling point feature of the expansion should not be gated behind a challenging meta and strike mission. Especially when it was billed as being on par with aquiring the roller beetle.

Moving the order around will not change this.

100% Disagree. By your logic, everything that isn't your daily log-in bonus is gated. And even that, is kind of gated because you have to go through the process of logging in. Dragons end is NOT hard. The strike mission is NOT hard. Cleared that strike mission with 4 people on the ground for 80% of the fight. It has NO enrage, and no complicated mechanics. The turtle is the carrot on a stick to get people to try new content. This is a good thing and something the community has been BEGGING for for a very long time and is most welcome. 

[Gibson.4036]

4 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

100% Disagree. By your logic, everything that isn't your daily log-in bonus is gated. And even that, is kind of gated because you have to go through the process of logging in. Dragons end is NOT hard. The strike mission is NOT hard. Cleared that strike mission with 4 people on the ground for 80% of the fight. It has NO enrage, and no complicated mechanics. The turtle is the carrot on a stick to get people to try new content. This is a good thing and something the community has been BEGGING for for a very long time and is most welcome. 

If they'd been up front about that, I'd concede your argument.

But they specifically said it would be equivalent to unlocking the roller beetle.

I'm not asking for it to be handed out on first log-in. I've done the skyscale collection people moan about. I've done achievements that are regularly complained about. I have no problem with GoBs.

I'm just asking for ArenaNet to stand by what they said.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Einsof.1457]

7 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

If they'd been up front about that, I'd concede your argument.

But they specifically said it would be equivalent to unlocking the roller beetle.

I'm not asking for it to be handed out on first log-in. I've done the skyscale collection people moan about. I've done achievements that are regularly complained about. I have no problem with GoBs.

I'm just asking for ArenaNet to stand by what they said.

I get it. It feels like a rug pull to some people, but that doesn't mean it's bad design or anything. It is meant as a motivator.  Having a reason to do the new content/strikes is a very good thing.

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Gibson.4036]

Just now, Einsof.1457 said:

I get it. It feels like a rug pull to some people, but that doesn't mean it's bad design or anything. It is meant as a motivator. 

 

No, it's bad business practice. And it sucks.

They were on the right track to introduce difficulty levels for strike missions. It's good to find a way to ramp players up into harder endgame content. It'd be fine to throw some shinies in to entice poeple.

But you don't hype up a new mount, say it's going to be similar in aquisition to a previous mount, and then require things no other mount in the game so far required to get it. That's deceptive.

[Alcarinque.9842]

4 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

I get it. It feels like a rug pull to some people, but that doesn't mean it's bad design or anything. It is meant as a demotivator. 

 

There, i fixed it for you... 
;)

[Einsof.1457]

6 minutes ago, Alcarinque.9842 said:

There, i fixed it for you... 
😉

Speak for yourself haha. As soon as I learned the turtle was behind the meta, I jumped in and learned as much as I could and got it done. It motivated me hard. I wasn't planning on doing strikes til a bit later and guides were out but i needed strike #3 to do the final turtle collection so i hopped in with a bunch of also fresh people and we learned the fight and got it down. It motivated me, I made some friends in the process, and I have a cool new mount to play around with. Arenanet did a great job.  This is an MMORPG and should be played as such. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Gibson.4036]

8 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Speak for yourself haha. As soon as I learned the turtle was behind the meta, I jumped in and learned as much as I could and got it done. It motivated me hard. I wasn't planning on doing strikes til a bit later and guides were out but i needed strike #3 to do the final turtle collection so i hopped in with a bunch of also fresh people and we learned the fight and got it down. It motivated me, I made some friends in the process, and I have a cool new mount to play around with. Arenanet did a great job.  This is an MMORPG and should be played as such. 

Nice strawman argument.

My kids and I play with each other and other players all the time. That doesn't mean they do instanced group content or will be welcome at an event with low tolerance for players who don't participate at a high level.

[Einsof.1457]

1 minute ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Nice strawman argument.

My kids and I play with each other and other players all the time. That doesn't mean they do instanced group content or will be welcome at an event with low tolerance for players who don't participate at a high level.

Great! I hope you guys have fun in whatever content you decide to do. If you don't want to improve then that's not really arenanet's issue. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Gibson.4036]

Just now, Einsof.1457 said:

Great! I hope you guys have fun in whatever content you decide to do. 

We have been, but ANet misleading us has definitely diminished the joy of a new expansion.

[Erise.5614]

45 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

A selling point feature of the expansion should not be gated behind a challenging meta and strike mission. Especially when it was billed as being on par with aquiring the roller beetle.

Moving the order around will not change this.

I am not sure about the 3rd strike mission either. Maybe just the first two. They have some mechanics but aren't all that punishing serving as ok introduction to instanced content without being a real barrier.

And honestly, I don't expect DE to end up that much more challenging that Dragon's Stand or Dragonstorm. In two to three weeks time that is (with another set of fixes or rebalancing from ANet and the community getting better).

The collection could have accounted for that to some degree and therefore reduced the barrier that players actually experience to something anyone can reasonably do. Making sure they have the time to get the meta into a good state before the majority of players will want the content locked behind it. 

[Erise.5614]

16 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

We have been, but ANet misleading us has definitely diminished the joy of a new expansion.

Just ignore Ensof. He's basically trolling and has been for a few days. The exact kind of person because of whom I mostly avoid raids or any form of remotely challenging instanced content. 

Nothing useful will come of any replies. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Redfeather.6401]

It should have been advertised differently for transparency.

[Einsof.1457]

22 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

We have been, but ANet misleading us has definitely diminished the joy of a new expansion.

I also did not expect it to be that hard to get. I expected it to be handed out in story, but that doesn't mean I couldn't adapt to the challenge presented in front of me and have a good time doing it. 🙂 

[Gibson.4036]

6 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

I also did not expect it to be that hard to get.

Right? Why would you have, when they specifically said it wouldn't?

[Einsof.1457]

1 minute ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Right? Why would you have, when they specifically said it wouldn't?

No idea. But my reaction was that of pleasant surprise, rather than anger. I am happy for challenging content and rewards that motivate me to improve. 

[Peterson.5172]

1 minute ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Right? Why would you have, when they specifically said it wouldn't?

where did they say that? can you post a link?

[Gibson.4036]

8 minutes ago, Peterson.5172 said:

where did they say that? can you post a link?

In the live stream about the turtle they were clear they were aware that people were concerned we were going to have another skyscale quest to unlock the turtle, and reassured the community that unlocking it would be equivalent to unlocking the roller beetle.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Erise.5614]

16 minutes ago, Peterson.5172 said:

where did they say that? can you post a link?

It's also mentioned in the the announcement they did in collaboration with PCGamer 4 days before the reveal on their own youtube channel here

Quote

Still, ArenaNet says it won't overuse specific content that can only be accessed with a Siege Turtle. This is in part because players will have to do some work to acquire it. ArenaNet says the quest to unlock the Siege Turtle will be longer than the Raptor or Springer, but (thankfully) shorter than the Griffon or Skyscale—instead pointing to Season 4's Roller Beetle as a comparable quest.

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Einsof.1457]

To be fair, they said comparable. This could mean any number of things. In a sense, I think they are right. The turtle is not a huge series of collections like griffin or skyscale, and is not a complete gimmie like raptor, or springer. It's in between. Roller beetle fits the bill. 

[Shaaba.5672]

2 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Speak for yourself haha. As soon as I learned the turtle was behind the meta, I jumped in and learned as much as I could and got it done. It motivated me hard. I wasn't planning on doing strikes til a bit later and guides were out but i needed strike #3 to do the final turtle collection so i hopped in with a bunch of also fresh people and we learned the fight and got it down. It motivated me, I made some friends in the process, and I have a cool new mount to play around with. Arenanet did a great job.  This is an MMORPG and should be played as such. 

That's a cool experience for you. My computer is a potato and doesn't render some of the big tells that you need to react to in the meta. I didn't realize what was killing me until I saw videos on it - there's a tail swipe? huh.

Yeah, that's my problem and I'm fine with it. It's not worth it to me to update my computer for a game - that's not my priority.

Step outside your own experiences and try to see it through other people's situations. Some people have physical issues that limit their cap. Some players are dealing with ping that severely hampers some parts of the game. Some, like me, don't have a computer that renders the game perfectly in all situations. Some people have really bad internet connections - not all of the country/world has the same quality available. To add to that, I am 50+, so my reflexes aren't what they used to be, and I am far from the oldest person I've met playing this game. I can do challenging content solo, but I hesitate in high end group content with a lot of things that need to be rendered because I don't want to be the weak link.

So yeah, pushing people into challenging content is a nice goal and all, but it's really not ever going to be a thing for everyone, and that's ok. If they wanted the mastery to be more of a trophy for higher end-content, then they should have marketed it that way. Right now I'm feeling that the masteries are pretty meh and having one yanked out from under me feels even worse. It's not that I super want the turtle, but since it's taking up a mastery slot, I feel kind of cheated. They should have made it a "secret" mount and made a new mastery line.