Why PVE necros can't have nice things

[Axl.8924]

7 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I obviously am not saying let's just add nothing but change everyone's hp to identical numbers. 

What I'm saying is I don't like the concept of the second life bars. 

Due to the fact its tied to a sustain mechanic means it's been gradually nerfed in regards of its gain. Because it has a DR effect on it its drain has been rapid Nd for balancing then taking any damage also reduces its effectiveness. 

Necromancer has 0 active sustain to stack where harbingers in a weird place where they nerfed it and it was terrible then they buffed it and now its overpowered. 

I find the way harbinger and scourge progressed to not have second health bars but forms of active sustain and the ability to spend its points freely in dps or support instead of continously using as little as possible while upholding its boons by literally using 1 ability every now and then and auto attack spamming. 

Reaper is pure melee. It has limited mobility you don't have to strip its second health bar and say GG. You could give it active sustain and more damage realistically. 

Yoy could add damage to its core kit so it isn't trapped in hitting like a wet noodle prior shroud. There's plenty of ways to add sustain. Life leech (which is thematic to the proffession) is one of many examples. Aswell as bolstering its utility options. 

 

I think  harbringer was meant to be a squishy mobile class like eles

[Puck.3697]

20 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

I think  harbringer was meant to be a squishy mobile class like eles

It rly isn't though, properly played ones carry quite a bit of sustain with good management of its mechanic. 

[Axl.8924]

18 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

It rly isn't though, properly played ones carry quite a bit of sustain with good management of its mechanic. 

The issue is necromancers will never be on par with other super mobile classes i think partly because of identity of the necromacner itself and teh other because everyone and i mean everyone would have their pitchforks out if necros could escape every time and keep up with people. Harbringer wasn't meant to be taking blows like reaper with shroud.

Also they are unlikely to completely gut harbringer mostl likely what they will do is nerf harbringer in some way that nerfs core more and completely miss the mark or some small nerf to sustain.

Harbringer being the new elite ANET wants you to play it even if it means nerfing reaper and scourge more.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Axl.8924

[Puck.3697]

50 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

The issue is necromancers will never be on par with other super mobile classes i think partly because of identity of the necromacner itself and teh other because everyone and i mean everyone would have their pitchforks out if necros could escape every time and keep up with people. Harbringer wasn't meant to be taking blows like reaper with shroud.

Also they are unlikely to completely gut harbringer mostl likely what they will do is nerf harbringer in some way that nerfs core more and completely miss the mark or some small nerf to sustain.

Harbringer being the new elite ANET wants you to play it even if it means nerfing reaper and scourge more.

What yoy have to remember is harbinger is insanely busted, excruciatingly busted. In spvp right now it just absolutely tramples masses. 

It won't be intentionally gutted no, but it's going to get nerfed. The healing vs blight is just too high and it has made it sustain far too much damage but how much dmg it puts out in spvp. 

The issue is, as alot of people have already stated. 

The blight mechanic is not a easy one to Balance. 

Necromancer has nothing at core to support the needs of harbinger. So it's so reliant on everything harbinger itself brings that it's not going to be simple to fix. 

Your saying people with pitchforks. Bur I'm afraid they're already here, heaps of the playerbase is still continously screeching for harbinger nerfs. 

Harbinger needs more active sustain. So blight can player a lesser role defensive wise, because atm its going to get its healing nerfed or elixirs are gonna take some form of nerf and u less the 28th is gonna change reaper up massively, its going to leave necro is a state. 

Because of harbingers design realistically. When a player doesn't know how to use its blight properly it shows because half way through a duel it just gets one shot. 

Harbingers prolly one of the coolest designs in gw2, I primarily don't play one because I don't have faith anet won't over nerf it realistically. 

But I think Harbinger is a good example. 

Where using shroud you do use all the abilities it's not restricted in the same sense as reaper and feels great for doing so 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Axl.8924]

14 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

What yoy have to remember is harbinger is insanely busted, excruciatingly busted. In spvp right now it just absolutely tramples masses. 

It won't be intentionally gutted no, but it's going to get nerfed. The healing vs blight is just too high and it has made it sustain far too much damage but how much dmg it puts out in spvp. 

The issue is, as alot of people have already stated. 

The blight mechanic is not a easy one to Balance. 

Necromancer has nothing at core to support the needs of harbinger. So it's so reliant on everything harbinger itself brings that it's not going to be simple to fix. 

Your saying people with pitchforks. Bur I'm afraid they're already here, heaps of the playerbase is still continously screeching for harbinger nerfs. 

Harbinger needs more active sustain. So blight can player a lesser role defensive wise, because atm its going to get its healing nerfed or elixirs are gonna take some form of nerf and u less the 28th is gonna change reaper up massively, its going to leave necro is a state. 

 

What arenanet needs is a bigger team, or a solution to the mess it created without needing huge team a focus on on overhauling specs that are needing overhauls such as "Warrior" because every time they nerf something they gut it and leave it like that forever.

They have a bad tendency to just gut entire areas of specs with a chainsaw and leave anyone who plays that spec  not enjoying that spec.

World of warcraft has a team so even if they nerf something hard, at a later date they get back to it to fix it and make it better if overdone along with that principle that if you do something wrong eventually go back and fix it.

 

And as for this well it would be nice if they touched the sustain but not the DPS and maybe touch mobility up a bit since its meant to be mobile not have passive sustain.

[Dadnir.5038]

48 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

I think  harbringer was meant to be a squishy mobile class like eles

I think that's the issue: Players have prejudices over what Harbinger is meant to be.

Point is that despite having 2 movement skills on it's shroud, it's not more mobile than a reaper since the 2 mobility skills have longer CD compared to the single mobility skill of the reaper.

Also, despite not having the shroud and having a reduced health pool, the harbinger does have enough sustain and a gameplay (ranged mostly) that allow him to take advantage of the natural ability of the core necromancer to reduce incoming damage.

- The Harbinger is built to kite with a possible boon support role.

- On the opposite, the Reaper was built to stick to it's foes and keep them close.

- Scourge was built to control an area (area denial/survivability support).

None of them are especially supposed to be squishy, focused on condition damage/strike damage or whatever. It's all about their "job". Reaper push, Scourge control the area and Harbinger harass. (If we take other professions as example. Ranger: Druid support, Soulbeast harass and Untamed push. Guardian: DH control the area, FB support and willbender push... etc.)

[ZDragon.3046]

6 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

It rly isn't though, properly played ones carry quite a bit of sustain with good management of its mechanic. 

so like any other class including ele?

[Puck.3697]

23 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

so like any other class including ele?

Only by turning your bulk into a bunker. 

And that's the difference, for ele to be tanky your playing fire and your multi stating into defense at the cost of damage. 

Harbinger can total far more dmg with higher sustain in a singular build. 

You try use a build alike harbingers on ele and your going to go splat at a breathe of damage 

[ZDragon.3046]

8 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Only by turning your bulk into a bunker. 

And that's the difference, for ele to be tanky your playing fire and your multi stating into defense at the cost of damage. 

Harbinger can total far more dmg with higher sustain in a singular build. 

You try use a build alike harbingers on ele and your going to go splat at a breathe of damage 

 

Your whole point was when you play it properly a certain way which obviously includes building a specific way as well... 

If you build ele a certain for proper play wait it can be extremely and i mean extremely difficult to kill. You dont get this on glass cannon build bug harbinger on a glass cannon build when played correctly has roughly 13k hp or something like that maybe a bit less. You dont exactly take healing power or blood magic either so im not sure where the idea of this sustain comes from as you dont have hp protection or barrier.... I would like you to point out where all this sustain is if possible on builds that you would use to play it properly as a dps.

 

Like we already discussed 

Harbinger has no real defensive utility, no extra health, and loses maximum hp as an in built mechanic. Its trade off is literally everything people asked for with necro done right.... (because scourge was a total failure with the no health protecting shroud it elite spec that it tried to be) You in exchange gain alot of damage and a single extra mobility skill in your shroud kit. Thats it!

 

[Puck.3697]

14 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

 

Your whole point was when you play it properly a certain way which obviously includes building a specific way as well... 

If you build ele a certain for proper play wait it can be extremely and i mean extremely difficult to kill. You dont get this on glass cannon build bug harbinger on a glass cannon build when played correctly has roughly 13k hp or something like that maybe a bit less. You dont exactly take healing power or blood magic either so im not sure where the idea of this sustain comes from as you dont have hp protection or barrier.... I would like you to point out where all this sustain is if possible on builds that you would use to play it properly as a dps.

 

Like we already discussed 

Harbinger has no real defensive utility, no extra health, and loses maximum hp as an in built mechanic. Its trade off is literally everything people asked for with necro done right.... (because scourge was a total failure with the no health protecting shroud it elite spec that it tried to be) You in exchange gain alot of damage and a single extra mobility skill in your shroud kit. Thats it!

 

I'm not shaming what the specc is supposed to be. 

I'm stating that's its grossly busted, I.e over performing to what it's supposed to do 

[ZDragon.3046]

17 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I'm not shaming what the specc is supposed to be. 

I'm stating that's its grossly busted, I.e over performing to what it's supposed to do 

The sustain is over performing or the dps is over performing?

Kinda generally confused here now.  I mean in terms of dps goes ele cata builds are still outperforming it. Seems about right considering harbinger when played correctly on a dps build i just barley more tanky than an ele with max blight you are looking alike a 2-3 k hp difference.

Edited June 15, 2022 by ZDragon.3046

[Axl.8924]

2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Only by turning your bulk into a bunker. 

And that's the difference, for ele to be tanky your playing fire and your multi stating into defense at the cost of damage. 

Harbinger can total far more dmg with higher sustain in a singular build. 

You try use a build alike harbingers on ele and your going to go splat at a breathe of damage 

I mean Doesn't weaver have some stuff that allow it to sustain well from barriers? i forget

 

1 hour ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

The sustain is over performing or the dps is over performing?

Kinda generally confused here now.  I mean in terms of dps goes ele cata builds are still outperforming it. Seems about right considering harbinger when played correctly on a dps build i just barley more tanky than an ele with max blight you are looking alike a 2-3 k hp difference.

 

both probably. Shouldn't be 1 hit kills thats why chrono was nerfed and rangers and thief specs.

Small nerf to DPS and a nerf to the sustain type it has and replace that with mobility making it a more mobile class which is what it was supposed to be 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Axl.8924

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

The sustain is over performing or the dps is over performing?

Kinda generally confused here now.  I mean in terms of dps goes ele cata builds are still outperforming it. Seems about right considering harbinger when played correctly on a dps build i just barley more tanky than an ele with max blight you are looking alike a 2-3 k hp difference.

Are we really comparing a S tier pvp meta specc to a B tier barely any representation apecc? 

If catalyst was as good as harbinger. We would be meta aswell. Harbinger is stronger then cata in spvp 

[Puck.3697]

22 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

mean Doesn't weaver have some stuff that allow it to sustain well from barriers? i forget

It has a bunker fire weaver build yes however its not very good anymore. And a zerker harbinger will one shot it, yoy have literally another post talking on the fact harbinger will smash a ele into a floor if it attempted this. 

But harbinger is S tier and cata is B tier realistically if we are talking current meta charts. 

There's no situation u should be playing ele over a necro currently. 

But then again spectre and willbender are both S tier too.

22 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

both probably. Shouldn't be 1 hit kills thats why chrono was nerfed and rangers and thief specs.

Small nerf to DPS and a nerf to the sustain type it has and replace that with mobility making it a more mobile class which is what it was supposed to be 

 

sadly anet also suck at small nerfs... as we can tell with the fact chrono from a PvP Point of view is Beyond gutted in terms of capability. so i wont hold my breathe for it to get a reasonable nerf.

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[ZDragon.3046]

23 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Are we really comparing a S tier pvp meta specc to a B tier barely any representation apecc? 

If catalyst was as good as harbinger. We would be meta aswell. Harbinger is stronger then cata in spvp 

ok well pvp is a different story entirely i thought you were speaking pve still. 

 

in terms of pvp 

Harbinger still technically is a elite that has no active / hard defenses. By that I mean no blocks, invulns etc, its all soft stuff damage reduction / weakening your foes etc. It also lacks the hp protection that core and reaper have via shroud resource. Its technically still necromancer done right in terms of what the community has been wanting. Both necro players and non necro players have asked for a version of necromancer that did not have shroud protection and many times agin its been said that "i would be fine with them having more damage if they didnt have the second health bar" Anet presented that to us and now the damage is too much and too strong despite not having the health protection. (still many other classes out there that have stronger burst and damage potential just as high by the way.) The elite exlier if nerfed i can understand for what it does. Though at a base its technically still the most squishy spec of all the necromancer options thus it has the most potential damage of all the necromancer options. 

However, dont sell yourself short cata is quite popular despite not being a class that is built around countering boons.

You will never and i mean NEVER not see necromancer as a meta pick because its the only valid anti boon counter in the game. Anet builds necromancer around countering the benefits of boons via condition application and boon corruption. You could nerf harbinger and some version of necro is still going to be meta its not something you can get rid of unless anet does one of two things.

1 they create another valid anit boon elite spec that works just as well as necromancer does

2 they cull boons across the board on every class to the point necromancer is felt its not needed and even then it will probably still be a popular class among many choices.

EVEN on top of this it does not invalidate that there are very very annoying elementalist builds that excel in their own roles (support tempest being one of them for example) the amount of value that adds to a team when played properly on the correct build can literally carry a game. Will it do damage like harbinger does? No it wont. But thats not its role.. Flipping this around do you think harbinger can support as effectively as a tempest can? No it wont. But thats not its role. 

Do you see support tempest builds as much as harbingers or any other version of necro. No you dont but thats because necromancer and guardian are 2 edges of a single sword that define the game you can call them the OG balance factors if you want. One based on giving out boons the other based on taking them a way and no other classes have been reworked in a way that competes with them because that was more or less their unique job role. You will almost always see these two classes in every pvp match. To put ele or any other base class on the same level or into the same tier as these two classes would mean a rework of the entire base game and each of the professions to such a point it may as well be called gw3.

Edited June 15, 2022 by ZDragon.3046

[Puck.3697]

6 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

ok well pvp is a different story entirely i thought you were speaking pve still. 

 

in terms of pvp 

Harbinger still technically is a elite that has no active / hard defenses. By that I mean no blocks, invulns etc, its all soft stuff damage reduction / weakening your foes etc. It also lacks the hp protection that core and reaper have via shroud resource. Its technically still necromancer done right in terms of what the community has been wanting. Both necro players and non necro players have asked for a version of necromancer that did not have shroud protection and many times agin its been said that "i would be fine with them having more damage if they didnt have the second health bar" Anet presented that to us and now the damage is too much and too strong despite not having the health protection. (still many other classes out there that have stronger burst and damage potential just as high by the way.) The elite exlier if nerfed i can understand for what it does. Though at a base its technically still the most squishy spec of all the necromancer options thus it has the most potential damage of all the necromancer options. 

However, dont sell yourself short cata is quite popular despite not being a class that is built around countering boons.

You will never and i mean NEVER not see necromancer as a meta pick because its the only valid anti boon counter in the game. Anet builds necromancer around countering the benefits of boons via condition application and boon corruption. You could nerf harbinger and some version of necro is still going to be meta its not something you can get rid of unless anet does one of two things.

1 they create another valid anit boon elite spec that works just as well as necromancer does

2 they cull boons across the board on every class to the point necromancer is felt its not needed and even then it will probably still be a popular class among many choices.

EVEN on top of this it does not invalidate that there are very very annoying elementalist builds that excel in their own roles (support tempest being one of them for example) the amount of value that adds to a team when played properly on the correct build can literally carry a game. Will it do damage like harbinger does? No it wont. But thats not its role.. Flipping this around do you think harbinger can support as effectively as a tempest can? No it wont. But thats not its role. 

Do you see support tempest builds as much as harbingers or any other version of necro. No you dont but thats because necromancer and guardian are 2 edges of a single sword that define the game you can call them the OG balance factors if you want. One based on giving out boons the other based on taking them a way and no other classes have been reworked in a way that competes with them because that was more or less their unique job role. You will almost always see these two classes in every pvp match. To put ele or any other base class on the same level or into the same tier as these two classes would mean a rework of the entire base game and each of the professions to such a point it may as well be called gw3.

ah PvE, yeah catalyst is pretty good.

and elixirs do work as defensive ability really. they do provide quite abit of overall sustain to the proffession for sure tbh. sure if a idiot plays it and Starts spamming they'll become as Squishy as a Zerker ele.. but a well played one can defintly sustain a fair whack of Damage just by having some control over ur blight and knowing how to use it.

i would like to add though.. a Popular choice?.

u are aware, statistics on Wingman etc etc, put ELementalist as one of the Lower populated Proffessions + only like 3 prominent Eles Existing currently?

Ele is Pretty unpopular. because most regard it too Hard to play for the Reward of doing it well + the fact Most cant actually play it well at all.

 

[Axl.8924]

15 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

ok well pvp is a different story entirely i thought you were speaking pve still. 

 

in terms of pvp 

Harbinger still technically is a elite that has no active / hard defenses. By that I mean no blocks, invulns etc, its all soft stuff damage reduction / weakening your foes etc. It also lacks the hp protection that core and reaper have via shroud resource. Its technically still necromancer done right in terms of what the community has been wanting. Both necro players and non necro players have asked for a version of necromancer that did not have shroud protection and many times agin its been said that "i would be fine with them having more damage if they didnt have the second health bar" Anet presented that to us and now the damage is too much and too strong despite not having the health protection. (still many other classes out there that have stronger burst and damage potential just as high by the way.) The elite exlier if nerfed i can understand for what it does. Though at a base its technically still the most squishy spec of all the necromancer options thus it has the most potential damage of all the necromancer options. 

However, dont sell yourself short cata is quite popular despite not being a class that is built around countering boons.

You will never and i mean NEVER not see necromancer as a meta pick because its the only valid anti boon counter in the game. Anet builds necromancer around countering the benefits of boons via condition application and boon corruption. You could nerf harbinger and some version of necro is still going to be meta its not something you can get rid of unless anet does one of two things.

1 they create another valid anit boon elite spec that works just as well as necromancer does

2 they cull boons across the board on every class to the point necromancer is felt its not needed and even then it will probably still be a popular class among many choices.

EVEN on top of this it does not invalidate that there are very very annoying elementalist builds that excel in their own roles (support tempest being one of them for example) the amount of value that adds to a team when played properly on the correct build can literally carry a game. Will it do damage like harbinger does? No it wont. But thats not its role.. Flipping this around do you think harbinger can support as effectively as a tempest can? No it wont. But thats not its role. 

Do you see support tempest builds as much as harbingers or any other version of necro. No you dont but thats because necromancer and guardian are 2 edges of a single sword that define the game you can call them the OG balance factors if you want. One based on giving out boons the other based on taking them a way and no other classes have been reworked in a way that competes with them because that was more or less their unique job role. You will almost always see these two classes in every pvp match. To put ele or any other base class on the same level or into the same tier as these two classes would mean a rework of the entire base game and each of the professions to such a point it may as well be called gw3.

What about carapace and how it works along with protection from elixirs for harbringer?
 

Wouldn't you argue that counts as a defense'

[Puck.3697]

5 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

What about carapace and how it works along with protection from elixirs for harbringer?
 

Wouldn't you argue that counts as a defense'

Don't forget the masses of healing from converting blight via them 

[ZDragon.3046]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

ah PvE, yeah catalyst is pretty good.

and elixirs do work as defensive ability really. they do provide quite abit of overall sustain to the proffession for sure tbh. sure if a idiot plays it and Starts spamming they'll become as Squishy as a Zerker ele.. but a well played one can defintly sustain a fair whack of Damage just by having some control over ur blight and knowing how to use it.

i would like to add though.. a Popular choice?.

u are aware, statistics on Wingman etc etc, put ELementalist as one of the Lower populated Proffessions + only like 3 prominent Eles Existing currently?

Ele is Pretty unpopular. because most regard it too Hard to play for the Reward of doing it well + the fact Most cant actually play it well at all.

 

Elixers are not nearly as strong as instant mobility skills like lightning flash or blink. They are not as strong as break stuns that also provide stealth, evade frames, or blocks / invuln. As none of them do that. Yes some of them have defensive properties such as resistance or condition cleanse but those are soft defensive tools (you can consider condition cleanse a little closer to the harder side as it does remove the incoming damage) but none of them measure up to the previous things i listed. 

 

Ive been messing with harbinger and its not my preferred choice in pvp because im too used to having the hp from shroud. My mind set for almost 10 years has been be aggressive with shroud and passive when you don't have it up. You cant always default to this with harbinger as you can be easily blown up by any number of build options. 

In terms of popularity im not sure looking at the top 3 ele players is a good way of doing it. Im not a top player when it comes to pvp and I could be wrong but i dont think you are either. Why should you or me be looking at the top 3 ele players for confirmation on ho popular it is should we be considering the general population thats more likely to play around our skill level for how popular something is. I mean having done some pvp this weekend after a break i certainly saw more than 3 eles running around some of them playing very well on cata at that. The damage the can output with fire skills is actually impressive. (i wouldnt call it op) but its very impressive. 

[ZDragon.3046]

9 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

What about carapace and how it works along with protection from elixirs for harbringer?
 

Wouldn't you argue that counts as a defense'

toughness increases and protection is still soft defense. 

For clarification

Soft defense/passive defense is something that reduces your incoming damage but it does not stop the damage from coming in aka protection, toughness increases, barrier, shroud health etc.

Hard/active defenses stop or allow you to avoid damage entirely, burst condition cleanse, blocks, invulns, evade frames etc

I shouldnt need to say that avoiding damage is always better than reducing it. If you have the power to avoid a burst attack with a block or evasion skill to negate 100% of the incoming damage you should always do that before you try to reduce the damage and just take the hit. Necormancer really almost exclusively only has options to just take the hits which is why its base health is higher than ele/mesmer

Edited June 15, 2022 by ZDragon.3046

[Puck.3697]

9 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Elixers are not nearly as strong as instant mobility skills like lightning flash or blink. They are not as strong as break stuns that also provide stealth, evade frames, or blocks / invuln. As none of them do that. Yes some of them have defensive properties such as resistance or condition cleanse but those are soft defensive tools (you can consider condition cleanse a little closer to the harder side as it does remove the incoming damage) but none of them measure up to the previous things i listed. 

 

Ive been messing with harbinger and its not my preferred choice in pvp because im too used to having the hp from shroud. My mind set for almost 10 years has been be aggressive with shroud and passive when you don't have it up. You cant always default to this with harbinger as you can be easily blown up by any number of build options. 

In terms of popularity im not sure looking at the top 3 ele players is a good way of doing it. Im not a top player when it comes to pvp and I could be wrong but i dont think you are either. Why should you or me be looking at the top 3 ele players for confirmation on ho popular it is should we be considering the general population thats more likely to play around our skill level for how popular something is. I mean having done some pvp this weekend after a break i certainly saw more than 3 eles running around some of them playing very well on cata at that. The damage the can output with fire skills is actually impressive. (i wouldnt call it op) but its very impressive. 

How do u exactly add this up? 

Blinking away or lightning flashing way loses you the point I.e removes your teams win factor. Sustaining on point gives you points or denies the enemy win factor. 

In a game of chasing em down maybe. However this isn't. It's node fighting instant mobility is great for escape. But ele isn't a roamer. 

Yoy don't need to. Gw2 wingman and more gives you % of the playerbase who have done the content with every proffession. 

And elementalist never ranks highly. 

Also yes top players are. 

Average players tend to mimic pros choices (meta picks). It's very usual to copy cat

[ZDragon.3046]

2 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

How do u exactly add this up? 

Blinking away or lightning flashing way loses you the point I.e removes your teams win factor. Sustaining on point gives you points or denies the enemy win factor. 

Being able to survive and go else were or combat reset is often better than dying especially if you go down in a spot where you foes can bleed you out which takes you out of the game longer than just going to ooc reset (assuming you get away) it also lets you navigate the map in ways others who lack those options cannot.  None of the harbinger elixirs offer up utility like this. None of them offer good active defense either aside from the elite which just offers well a bit much. 

2 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

In a game of chasing em down maybe. However this isn't. It's node fighting instant mobility is great for escape. But ele isn't a roamer. 

Anything can be a roamer if you really want it to be might not be good at it but I see your point. But the mobility of something like lightning flash is not the only factor in the difference between ele's options and necromancers options. For example you can argue that wurm is close to blink value. but you cannot argue that anything is close to obsidian flesh as it just allows you to straight up ignore damage for a fixed period of time. Necro has literally nothing close to a tool like this. And thats just one extreme example when i speak on defensive tools and the difference between active and passive defense. Blinks are a small factor but can be used offensively and defensively. 

2 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Also yes top players are. 

Average players tend to mimic pros choices (meta picks). It's very usual to copy cat

Ok the last point of this has some value  but i still think you are underestimating how much ele is played in general matches. If i went a whole day of non stop play and never saw an ele on either team i would agree but even in ranked matches between what i play and what i watch some friends stream ele is generally popular showing up as tempest or cata. Maybe it was an off day and i just happened to see alot of them on those days. 

[Puck.3697]

8 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Being able to survive and go else were or combat reset is often better than dying especially if you go down in a spot where you foes can bleed you out which takes you out of the game longer than just going to ooc reset (assuming you get away) it also lets you navigate the map in ways others who lack those options cannot.  None of the harbinger elixirs offer up utility like this. None of them offer good active defense either aside from the elite which just offers well a bit much. 

thats just saying a Necro is Punished harder for being somewhere it should not be realistically.

we dont need to prove which ones better, harbinger or Catalyst. MATs / ATs, Pro teams and Meta do that for us.

Catalyst is Medicore in current meta standings.

Harbinger is Deemed a S Tier choice. I.E Overpowered I.E Meta.

[Puck.3697]

12 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Ok the last point of this has some value  but i still think you are underestimating how much ele is played in general matches. If i went a whole day of non stop play and never saw an ele on either team i would agree but even in ranked matches between what i play and what i watch some friends stream ele is generally popular showing up as tempest or cata. Maybe it was an off day and i just happened to see alot of them on those days.

i've played over 700 games this season alone. i dont underestimate it, i bounce between gold and plat are realistically and gone against even boyce etc etc

I do not see Catalysts Regularly at all, i'm very often the only ele in the team. i log on every day. i pvp every day, i do very little other then thatm realistically.

and im on Mixtures of hours.. sometimes at 6am.. other times after 5pm.. sometims throughout the day period.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Axl.8924]

51 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Being able to survive and go else were or combat reset is often better than dying especially if you go down in a spot where you foes can bleed you out which takes you out of the game longer than just going to ooc reset (assuming you get away) it also lets you navigate the map in ways others who lack those options cannot.  None of the harbinger elixirs offer up utility like this. None of them offer good active defense either aside from the elite which just offers well a bit much. 

Anything can be a roamer if you really want it to be might not be good at it but I see your point. But the mobility of something like lightning flash is not the only factor in the difference between ele's options and necromancers options. For example you can argue that wurm is close to blink value. but you cannot argue that anything is close to obsidian flesh as it just allows you to straight up ignore damage for a fixed period of time. Necro has literally nothing close to a tool like this. And thats just one extreme example when i speak on defensive tools and the difference between active and passive defense. Blinks are a small factor but can be used offensively and defensively. 

Ok the last point of this has some value  but i still think you are underestimating how much ele is played in general matches. If i went a whole day of non stop play and never saw an ele on either team i would agree but even in ranked matches between what i play and what i watch some friends stream ele is generally popular showing up as tempest or cata. Maybe it was an off day and i just happened to see alot of them on those days. 

 

One of the advantages is ranged Burst dps though on harbringer. If you can cc and necros are very strong at CC you can help prevent enemies from getting away plus you can literally vomit condies and you got medium range on harbringer.