WvW Virtuoso GS/Staff

[Ombras.2853]

So, I just thought it would be nice to share something.

We all are aware of the issues Virtuoso has in pvp mode (both sPvP and WvW). I’m not going to repeat all of those, since I’m more focused on making it work somehow.

 

Playtesting it since the very beginning (beta included), I found out that most weapons are kind of garbage on it. Sword leap is excellent for movement… except you don’t want to close the gap with the opponent, but to focus on a ranged mode. Dagger is okaysh on a condi build, but gets outclassed by a lot of stuff because dagger 3 is garbage. Scepter without clones is “heeeh”. Scepter/Pistol isn’t a bad combo per se, but… but. I’ll stop at that.

 

What it REALLY works, and that’s imho a major selling point for Virtuoso, is Greatsword + ranged shatters + Blade Renewal chain. Now, you can say a lot of stuff about Virtuoso, but those are all STRONG options when it comes to have a flexible build that can easily switch gears between roaming and zerging. My issue so far has always been the “defensive weapon” choice. Sword/Sword is a lot of blocks, and then you die. Scepter/Pistol provides block and stun, and then you die. Well, I found out that Staff works surprisingly well in this regard. Yes, nothing new, we are aware of the fact it was used years ago yadda yadda. I wanted to point out how strong is blasting all your power dps stuff on the opponents, then switching to Staff in order to buy time and put distance between you and them or spam aegis, rinse and repeat. In short, what we should have had with Dagger (a way to distance ourselves from the opponent) is a role that Staff covered quietly nice.

 

About utilities. Signet of Illusion is a very strong option, and I can’t see myself not running it. It lets us spam more shatters when facing zergs and having additional blades for a better f4 in close fights. The elite skill is something you should prepare accordingly to the kind of fight you expect, so there isn’t much to say. As for the traits, I’m running Domination (GS trait), Illusions (ammo and better shatters are huge here), Virtuoso classic traits.  Marauder gear, Marauder Staff, Berserker Greatsword, a mix of Marauder and Berserker on trinkets. Still have to figure out the Sigils I want on weapons tho.

 

I’ve been running this build since a week ago, and my opinion of Virtuoso in WvW esponentially changed. You’re still a dog to Thieves, and this won’t change. Apart from that, it has been a really well-performing build in both zerging and roaming. Tags well opponents, deals huge burst damage and ambushes quite well, has decent mobility thanks to Blink and Staff. I’m honestly more happy than I thought I would be with the class. (Yes, doesn’t change the fact it has issue that HAVE to be exploited, but I also hate talking about black or white, without ever mentioning grey areas).

[Ombras.2853]

Given the recent improvements to GS and f4, the build has been performing quite well. You can now spam Blade Renewal without even taking the cool down in consideration, since it recharges fast, and with the Illusion traitlines you can now spam all your shatters as well, since you’ll never be out of them. It still has pretty darn nice vibes when you engage against any non-Thief opponent from distance, since you have a good burst and many ways to create distance between the two of you (GS push, Staff 2, you can even take the push skill if you really feel like it), on top of an improved sustain due to the above mentioned changes.

I will now test more intensively the condi version with Inspiration and Dagger/Pistol, but I’m pleasantly surprised by the way GS/Staff keeps working.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Glad that you're having success with it. Would love to see any vids if you record anything. I'm a bit newer to Mesmer and haven't really been able to get into staff gameplay on power (I think I still have residual hatred for the weapon from all the cele signet Mirages I have fought, lol). Surely I don't have enough practice on it, but I feel like my damage goes really limp when I'm on it. In theory, I can see the value of running it, but every time I try it I don't feel like I have success with it and quickly swap off of it. The port is really nice on it but I feel like I get more value out of the sword leap because of the juke potential with the return. Maybe just an L2P/practice thing?

 

Also, how do you feel you fare against Bladesworns with this build? At this point I feel like I'm more likely to win a Thief matchup than a Bladesworn matchup. I'm like hardcore struggling against them.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Ombras.2853]

The point about staff, compared to Sword Leap, is that you want to put distance between you and the opponent in the very moment you press the skill, since it’s a easy escape route when things go bad. The whole thing about “power Staff” is that you don’t really care about damage when you switch, cuz it’s your defensive set. As your defensive set, having backward leap + chaos aegis spam is very impactful, and remember that you are also upping your might for when you switch back to GS.

I’m also planning in trying Dagger/Pistol instead of Staff, but I should rework my skills at that point, since I’d have to substitute Signet of Illusion (which is insanely strong) with the push back skill (I never remember the name, sorry about that). And it’s something which doesn’t work against incoming small zergs, while a teleport makes you run away fast and smoothly.

As for the matchups, I think the difference in builds is non marginal. The few times I tried Cele Virtuoso I felt like I could handle thieves (not being on par, but handle them), on this build if you face a non Spectre you just want to run away. For real. I only played against medium level Bladesworns so far, and I never had issue with them, to be honest the toughest matchups have been Thieves and certain builds of Mechanists. I’d love to record something sooner or later, but for now my potato pc barely allows me to play the game 😄

[Za Shaloc.3908]

6 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

The point about staff, compared to Sword Leap, is that you want to put distance between you and the opponent in the very moment you press the skill, since it’s a easy escape route when things go bad. The whole thing about “power Staff” is that you don’t really care about damage when you switch, cuz it’s your defensive set. As your defensive set, having backward leap + chaos aegis spam is very impactful, and remember that you are also upping your might for when you switch back to GS.

I’m also planning in trying Dagger/Pistol instead of Staff, but I should rework my skills at that point, since I’d have to substitute Signet of Illusion (which is insanely strong) with the push back skill (I never remember the name, sorry about that). And it’s something which doesn’t work against incoming small zergs, while a teleport makes you run away fast and smoothly.

As for the matchups, I think the difference in builds is non marginal. The few times I tried Cele Virtuoso I felt like I could handle thieves (not being on par, but handle them), on this build if you face a non Spectre you just want to run away. For real. I only played against medium level Bladesworns so far, and I never had issue with them, to be honest the toughest matchups have been Thieves and certain builds of Mechanists. I’d love to record something sooner or later, but for now my potato pc barely allows me to play the game 😄

 

I appreciate the response! I will give it a go tomorrow to see if I can get a good feel for it.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Best options? Yeah.

Good weapons on Virt? No. 

The damaging skill on gs at range will hit only once. The only way to make this work is summon a phantasm right before gs2. 

Regarding staff is a defensive weapon without any damage without clones. 

Of course this is about roaming, why the heck would you even zerg as a Virt?! 

[Ombras.2853]

12 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

 

Of course this is about roaming, why the heck would you even zerg as a Virt?! 

Of course. It’s a roaming build designed for solo and small scale fights. You can also perform very well defending structures (including castle/keep). It has no reason to exist in open space zergs.

 

14 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Best options? Yeah.

Good weapons on Virt? No. 

 

 

Well, no. It IS a good weapon on Virtuoso. Has good burst, as the example you provided, but also tag potential from distance and GS4 with Domination trait is a powerhouse. GS5 is a nice push, GS3 is absolutely bonkers. 
 

16 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

 

Regarding staff is a defensive weapon without any damage without clones. 

 

Pretty much. You’ll be on GS most of the time, you switch to Staff when you need to recharge skills/keep yourself alive. It’s definitely not designed to do any real damage.

[rune.9572]

Why play that tho when a sicem ranger does the same but better, has a bot to annoy the target, better mobility, 600 more range, decent cleanse, stunbreak AND stab in like 3 skills.

Edited March 31, 2022 by rune.9572

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

24 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Of course. It’s a roaming build designed for solo and small scale fights. You can also perform very well defending structures (including castle/keep). It has no reason to exist in open space zergs.

 

 

Well, no. It IS a good weapon on Virtuoso. Has good burst, as the example you provided, but also tag potential from distance and GS4 with Domination trait is a powerhouse. GS5 is a nice push, GS3 is absolutely bonkers. 
 

Pretty much. You’ll be on GS most of the time, you switch to Staff when you need to recharge skills/keep yourself alive. It’s definitely not designed to do any real damage.

It isn't a good weapon due to, like I said, your gs2 will hit once at range if no phantasms are summoned (that being one of the reasons on clone specs you always combo gs2 into blink so it also bounce of yourself).

Thats one of the reasons Virt is such a mess, it is a ranged spec without any good weapons to stay ranged. 

[KeoLegend.5132]

1 hour ago, rune.9572 said:

Why play that tho when a sicem ranger does the same but better, has a bot to annoy the target, better mobility, 600 more range, decent cleanse, stunbreak AND stab in like 3 skills.

BECAUSE its boring as hell?

[Salt Mode.3780]

Fact that Virtuoso cant bounce blades on s2 is a huge damage nerf and burst loss unless you go blink in front of your target to bounce between you and the target. In which case there is no different then playing a core but you will not be able to follow up with a burst from your shatters.

[Ombras.2853]

20 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

In which case there is no different then playing a core but you will not be able to follow up with a burst from your shatters.

Specifically the damage from the GS, you mean? In that case, yes. But that’s it? It doesn’t play anything like core Mesmer. The Virtuoso traits still exist. Again, GS 3 and 4 are still really, really nice skills. And by that I certainly don’t mean that this build is perfect (far from it), but I don’t get the comparison.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Fact that Virtuoso cant bounce blades on s2 is a huge damage nerf and burst loss unless you go blink in front of your target to bounce between you and the target. In which case there is no different then playing a core but you will not be able to follow up with a burst from your shatters.

You can make it work by casting f1 and gs2 + blink when the blades are flying. But you've no set-up with F3 since F3 on Virt is kittening garbage, but like you said, it's just playing a wallmart core mesmer.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Salt Mode.3780]

8 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Specifically the damage from the GS, you mean? In that case, yes. But that’s it? It doesn’t play anything like core Mesmer. The Virtuoso traits still exist. Again, GS 3 and 4 are still really, really nice skills. And by that I certainly don’t mean that this build is perfect (far from it), but I don’t get the comparison.

Part of a mesmer's one shot is bouncing gs skill 2. If you look at your battle logs it will show the damage done. Not only is this important per bounce increase your might stacks while increasing vuln stacks to the target to finish off with a shatter. This is super huge for one shot mesmers as bouncing at range is unreliable and will focus other targets.

Oh I also forget to mention how much of a damage nerf this is to Virtuoso because gs s2 ignores projectile blocks, fact that there is no clones to bounce off of is another reason why its a huge damage nerf if you are playing from ranged.

The comparison is, Virtuoso is built and designed to be a ranged combatant, but in order for it to use gs skill 2 effectively you would need to blink in front of your target to capitalized on the might/vuln stacks as well as damage increase per bounce. Being put in close range however also puts you at a disadvantage compared to a core or chrono because your shatters are not instant, nor can you F3 daze into F1 combo. Compared to the fast pace on how core, chrono, and mirage can pull off, in a 1 v 1 match with core, chrono, and mirage a virtuoso will die before it can pull off it's combo. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Salt Mode.3780]

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You can make it work by casting f1 and gs2 + blink when the blades are flying. But you've no set-up with F3 since F3 on Virt is kittening garbage, but like you said, it's just playing a wallmart core mesmer.

Fact is when it summons 1 clone it was important to capitalize on that one clone, a normal combo would be blink gs s2 then daze for a final shatter, fact that there is no clones to do that also hinders the damage output. Back when we had the trait where daze turned to stun, how that trait will be missed.

[Ombras.2853]

48 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Part of a mesmer's one shot is bouncing gs skill 2. If you look at your battle logs it will show the damage done. Not only is this important per bounce increase your might stacks while increasing vuln stacks to the target to finish off with a shatter. This is super huge for one shot mesmers as bouncing at range is unreliable and will focus other targets.

 

I have nothing to disagree about this, and I’m aware of it as well.
Fact is, if you play Virtuoso like core we have already a problem imho.

This isn’t a one-shot build, being a roamer doesn’t mean bringing to the table the most offensive perks and trying to stealth-kill everything. Maybe you can, I’m not even excluding it, but it certainly isn’t the core of this build. You want to have an initial burst phase, followed by a bit of stalemate where you spam f4, aegis, put distance, Blade Renewal, resume the burst phase, and go on. If you don’t work towards this plan, everything falls apart. And the plan, so far, is working quite decently.

Nuff said, that’s not what I would bring in something like sPvP, because it works way better when the arena you’re moving in is huge. Again, the plan isn’t to one shot people out of nowhere, but having the potential to fight them on equal ground (bar thieves, kek) and slowly grind them out, while keeping: a) the mobility and reach to chase them if they try to retreat, b) the escape ability and the sustain to retreat yourself if more enemies show up, or simply the sustain necessary to fight vs multiple enemies when defending a position.

I believe GS is absolutely amazing on Virtuoso for what it provides on this build.

[Ombras.2853]

57 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Back when we had the trait where daze turned to stun, how that trait will be missed.

This. It would be a dream, perfect complement with a lot of our abilities.

[Salt Mode.3780]

35 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

I have nothing to disagree about this, and I’m aware of it as well.
Fact is, if you play Virtuoso like core we have already a problem imho.

This isn’t a one-shot build, being a roamer doesn’t mean bringing to the table the most offensive perks and trying to stealth-kill everything. Maybe you can, I’m not even excluding it, but it certainly isn’t the core of this build. You want to have an initial burst phase, followed by a bit of stalemate where you spam f4, aegis, put distance, Blade Renewal, resume the burst phase, and go on. If you don’t work towards this plan, everything falls apart. And the plan, so far, is working quite decently.

Nuff said, that’s not what I would bring in something like sPvP, because it works way better when the arena you’re moving in is huge. Again, the plan isn’t to one shot people out of nowhere, but having the potential to fight them on equal ground (bar thieves, kek) and slowly grind them out, while keeping: a) the mobility and reach to chase them if they try to retreat, b) the escape ability and the sustain to retreat yourself if more enemies show up, or simply the sustain necessary to fight vs multiple enemies when defending a position.

I believe GS is absolutely amazing on Virtuoso for what it provides on this build.

I mean at the end of the day GS in itself is our strongest weapon in all mesmer builds, its a full ranged weapon that cant get blocked by projectile hate. I dont recall any power build in competitive play NOT pickup GS, but that is also the issue with many of our other weapons including the dagger.