Gw 2 definition of Necromancer absolute bloated mess

[CafPow.1542]

14 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

If we break down why Reaper only auto attacks in Shroud its Because it Spam stacks Self Might. you get quickness for just being in shroud and its attacks chunk down its Life force faster. Maybe its time to encourage More of the Reapers Shroud abilities to be used comparitively to now

but how, if i may ask?

i mean in a pure dps aspect, you are right.

 

but besides benchmarking on a Golem: where are those fights?

you have a (dearly needed) mobility skill on R-shroud 2. i'd rather have the range increased and it does no damage at all than raising it's damage.

you have strong CCs on 3 and 5 with additional aspects (damage-reduce and chill-modifier) which is way more valuable than "another DPS Button".

 

or if i may state it the other way:

if i press 1-2-3, 1-2-3 or if i press 1-1-1, 1-1-1 doesn't make a difference skillwise.

but having different abilities that are needed for different situations is way more interesting and valuable.

 

but maybe i misunderstand your point a little bit.

[Ausar.9542]

On 3/26/2022 at 9:01 AM, Carnage.6751 said:

Hello I'm a veteran mmo player wasted many years by playing other mmos like Wow ,Metin 2 ,Silkroad list goes on...

And as a edgy boi I always liked Necromancer class.Evil theme,blood,gore and zombies,resurrection and stuff.

İn every mmo they have played like glass canoon.Good magical abilities,debuffs and sustain.

But in case on GW 2 some clever designer took this idea and said ;"You know what?What if we double down on it.What if we give them everything."

Necromancer class in this game my absolute most hated design ever.Because of how bloated and unfun to play againts.You giving them aoe fear,lifesteal,minions all this condition damage but still not enough .Lets give a second life bar  and attack speed steroid which turn to fight immediately and makes them a bullet sponge kitten.

People who gonna defend necros gonna say "oh its ez just peel from far,dont get near him ,cc and stuff" but there is an issue in PVP.This is an objective base game and as long you don't enter to circle and secure to point you losing point and İT stays there.Soaking damage,waiting you to get close so it can turn to leach form and destroy you.And plus even in downstate it lifesteals.I remember in one game I downstate to necro with inch of my hp.İt downstate me with basic attacks leech me and get back again.

Because of this every time I played necro I feel like scum.But unfortunatelly for Legendary backpack I have to.Maybe A-net should balance to classes seperately for pvp and pve.So mode they overperform that doesn't ruin to other modes.

 

Sorry for grammar.

 

you must not been around in the vanilla game. Necromancer was trash and not accepted to group play.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Ausar.9542 said:

you must not been around in the vanilla game. Necromancer was trash and not accepted to group play.

Actually, necro wasn't accepted in group play at that time because people making groups were ignorant because they based their assessments on excel spreadsheets instead of actual play. It had nothing to do with being trash. ... sort of like why some groups continue to exclude it today. 

As for the 'bloated mess' of class definition ... still never prevented anyone who plays it from enjoying the class. People shouldn't be playing classes they don't enjoy so they don't have to make threads like this one. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, necro wasn't accepted in group play at that time because people making groups were ignorant because they based their assessments on excel spreadsheets instead of actual play. It had nothing to do with being trash. ... sort of like why some groups continue to exclude it today. 

As for the 'bloated mess' of class definition ... still never prevented anyone who plays it from enjoying the class. People shouldn't be playing classes they don't enjoy so they don't have to make threads like this one. 

Nope Obtena. In the vanilla game the necromancer wasn't accepted because:

- It was low on power cleave and, in general, very low on strike damage.

- The bosses were dead before he could apply enough conditions to be effective with condition damage.

- His blast finisher were/are aweful QoL-wise.

- It didn't have fire field.

- It's best strike damage skills were dark field which covered the fire fields that everybody wanted to build might.

- His access to swiftness had the tendency to put him in combat and reveal him in groups that were heavily abusing stealth to skip trash mobs.

- Using evade skills against a boss that had it's back to a wall was the best option on mostly available to elementalist and warrior.

- The bosses were ripping through shroud like a torch through butter.

- He also didn't have projectile hate nor was he providing any boons or stealth to his allies.

From everyone point of view, it was just a frail dps that was impending the smoothness of the dungeon/fractal run while dealing below average damage and needed a long wind up to even achieve that.

To put it simply:

- Thief was the stealth pilar (Mandatory for skipping trash mobs)

- Warrior was providing might and fury (sometime banner) while dealing good damage.

- Elementalist was providing might, fury, swiftness, healing field, conjured weapon while dealing high damage.

- Engineer had a similar efficiency than warrior but lacked evade skill and banner.

- Mesmer was a high end alternative to thief for trash mob skipping and could cheese some encounter with reflect.

- Guardian could cheese some encounter with reflect as well but had the tendency to fart light field which was impending might gen.

- Ranger had people sticking to longbow and abusing PBS ruining the runs more often than not. Those peoples and the fact that the pet was "pushing" the target while auto attacking were the main reason ranger wasn't welcome in the vanilla end game.

- Necromancer... Well I already wrote the list above... It had literally nothing for him (no survivability, no support, no damage, no mobility). The only thing you could do with the necromancer was build him for heal support in a game where nobody wanted a heal support (and it sure healed pretty well).

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Nope Obtena. In the vanilla game the necromancer wasn't accepted because:

- It was low on power cleave and, in general, very low on strike damage.

- The bosses were dead before he could apply enough conditions to be effective with condition damage.

- His blast finisher were/are aweful QoL-wise.

- It didn't have fire field.

- It's best strike damage skills were dark field which covered the fire fields that everybody wanted to build might.

- His access to swiftness had the tendency to put him in combat and reveal him in groups that were heavily abusing stealth to skip trash mobs.

- Using evade skills against a boss that had it's back to a wall was the best option on mostly available to elementalist and warrior.

- The bosses were ripping through shroud like a torch through butter.

- He also didn't have projectile hate nor was he providing any boons or stealth to his allies.

From everyone point of view, it was just a frail dps that was impending the smoothness of the dungeon/fractal run while dealing below average damage and needed a long wind up to even achieve that.

To put it simply:

- Thief was the stealth pilar (Mandatory for skipping trash mobs)

- Warrior was providing might and fury (sometime banner) while dealing good damage.

- Elementalist was providing might, fury, swiftness, healing field, conjured weapon while dealing high damage.

- Engineer had a similar efficiency than warrior but lacked evade skill and banner.

- Mesmer was a high end alternative to thief for trash mob skipping and could cheese some encounter with reflect.

- Guardian could cheese some encounter with reflect as well but had the tendency to fart light field which was impending might gen.

- Ranger had people sticking to longbow and abusing PBS ruining the runs more often than not. Those peoples and the fact that the pet was "pushing" the target while auto attacking were the main reason ranger wasn't welcome in the vanilla end game.

- Necromancer... Well I already wrote the list above... It had literally nothing for him (no survivability, no support, no damage, no mobility). The only thing you could do with the necromancer was build him for heal support in a game where nobody wanted a heal support (and it sure healed pretty well).

I'm assuming when we say 'vanilla' here, we are talking about dungeons. When we talk about necro being 'accepted' in group play, we are talking about teams that pushed meta. In vanilla GW2, the only predominant requirement to be meta ... was DPS. That DPS was LARGELY determined by people with Excel spreadsheets since there was nothing available to check actual ingame DPS. Yes, Necro lacked those things you list, but what people disregarded was that most players were not able to execute those meta build toolsets effectively in the first place, so meta was a useless construct to the majority of the playerbase. 

Really, people just fell in the trap that if someone played a meta build, their performance MUST be better than anything else they could play. That's just ignorant. I always loved the irony that in MOST cases when someone played a meta build, their performance was WORSE than if they would have played a build they were familiar with. The fact is that necro was a VERY average-player friendly build and most people performed better with it than whatever meta build the pushers wanted to shove at them. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

the only predominant requirement to be meta ... was DPS.

Nope, DPS wasn't the "only predominant" requirement.

The meta was the team comp that had the ability to finish the path the fastest and dps, while important, wasn't the sole requirement to achieve such result. Being able to stack might through blast/fire field was an important requirement, being able to swiftly move from point A to point B was an important requirement, being able to stay stealthed without aggroing 100 adds was an important requirement, ... etc. That was true for both dungeon paths and fractals.

Like I said, the necromancer was failing all the checks. You could complete a dungeon path or a fractal with necro(s) in your team but the drawback was that it forced you to go through a lot of trouble that you wouldn't have gone through without. Which obviously made him not welcome.

The dps itself wasn't that much of an issue since the elementalist could provide strong tools in the form of conjured weapons (frostbow, lightning hammer and fiery greatsword) to compensate. With HoT the nerf to the damage of the skills with a set number of impacts destroyed the conjured weapon usefulness. Raids and new fractals made stealth, and thus the inability of the necromancer to stay stealthed, obsolete to skip mobs. Dedicated healers providing easily might, swiftness and fury removed the reliance on water, lightning and fire fields.

The vanilla game was a very different environment for the various professions where DPS wasn't the most important thing to take into account. I'm not saying it wasn't important but that wasn't the only thing the meta focused on in PvE.

Edit: Warrior was welcome in PvE and it didn't need to be stellar at the game to achieve top result. Phallanx strength, strength runeset and a GS, that was all you needed to outdps, outsupport and outsurvive the 'average player friendly" necromancer. I've tried every dungeon path with most professions and necromancer was one of the worst experience in the vanilla game, it was far from being "average player friendly".

Edited May 1, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Obtena.7952]

37 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Nope, DPS wasn't the "only predominant" requirement.

The meta was the team comp that had the ability to finish the path the fastest and dps, while important, wasn't the sole requirement to achieve such result. Being able to stack might through blast/fire field was an important requirement, being able to swiftly move from point A to point B was an important requirement, being able to stay stealthed without aggroing 100 adds was an important requirement, ... etc. That was true for both dungeon paths and fractals.

Like I said, the necromancer was failing all the checks. You could complete a dungeon path or a fractal with necro(s) in your team but the drawback was that it forced you to go through a lot of trouble that you wouldn't have gone through without. Which obviously made him not welcome.

The dps itself wasn't that much of an issue since the elementalist could provide strong tools in the form of conjured weapons (frostbow, lightning hammer and fiery greatsword) to compensate. With HoT the nerf to the damage of the skills with a set number of impacts destroyed the conjured weapon usefulness. Raids and new fractals made stealth, and thus the inability of the necromancer to stay stealthed, obsolete to skip mobs. Dedicated healers providing easily might, swiftness and fury removed the reliance on water, lightning and fire fields.

The vanilla game was a very different environment for the various professions where DPS wasn't the most important thing to take into account. I'm not saying it wasn't important but that wasn't the only thing the meta focused on in PvE.

Edit: Warrior was welcome in PvE and it didn't need to be stellar at the game to achieve top result. Phallanx strength, strength runeset and a GS, that was all you needed to outdps, outsupport and outsurvive the 'average player friendly" necromancer. I've tried every dungeon path with most professions and necromancer was one of the worst experience in the vanilla game, it was far from being "average player friendly".

That's fair, but I'm not here to argue all the reasons Necro wasn't meta. There are lots of them, they were relevant at different points in the game, they were relevant to the top performing players.
 

The point I'm making here is that Necro wasn't excluded because it was 'trash', because it wasn't trash depending on the scenario. People just convinced themselves it was because they didn't understand how the game worked.  

Edited May 1, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

57 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

because it wasn't trash depending on the scenario.

The only scenario where it wasn't trash was WvW zerg, thought.

[XECOR.2814]

sometimes some people are so wrong that it isnt worth replying to them.