How can they actually fix Warrior? "Balance" Feedback Discussion

[Flapjackson.1596]

Warrior is a class that has always had problems in PvE:

1. It has always had a hard time with crit capping.
2. It has never had good options outside of DPS.
3. Its only party value has been CC (so easily covered elsewhere its barely mentionable) and banners (overcentralized, boring, and not meaningfully different in the playstyle from going DPS).
4. It has been very melee-focused.

 

The crit capping seems to be the easiest fix (outside of arms traitline memes).

Just buffing some rifle skills might make ranged power builds more viable.

 

What about expanding roles and party value? There are two things to fix here.

1. Warrior needs to have roles in PvE squads besides being a DPS
2. Warrior utilities, banners in particular, need to be touched up to make them more useful.

 

Regarding Issue 1:

The two clear avenues are boon support and healing. Shout healing is technically a warrior build that exists, but it isn't very competitive. Anet is trying to give boon support utility through banners (fantastic job Anet 🙃). A big issue is that banners and shouts both take up utility bar space. You can't effectively compress these roles due to this. There is also the issue that quickness access is given exclusively through core utility. If we assume that Anet wants war to be a quick provider (ignoring the reality of current uptime) exclusively through core utility, then any future elite spec can't provide alacrity (Because they want to keep the boons separate). That severely limits future design space.

 

If Anet wants to give warrior boon support and healing roles, then two things need to happen:

1. Shout healing should be a viable source of healing. It should have access to boons to compete with other supports, which means that 2-3 banners can't be the avenue of boons.
2. Anet needs to decide what to do with Warrior Elite Specs. Three DPS-focused specs is too rigid design. Spellbreaker lacks PvE presence. Giving it greater boon access could open up boon support without undercutting future specs.

 

Regarding Issue 2:

Banners are in their worst state ever. Picking them up is a terrible idea. Warrior's strength is in it's simplicity. Introducing something you have to pick up and carry around, even if the banners had skills, is not in the spirit of the class. Outside of deleting them from the game, my idea is to take away their focus as the source of boons. Instead, banners should become "territory where things can happen". What I mean by this is you can design traits and skills to operate around being inside a banner. It isn't terribly complicated, and it allows Warrior flexibility in what they can do while also giving them area control. For example, a warrior trait could allow shouts and warhorn skills to provide quickness inside of a banner. While I don't think that core warrior should be the source of these boons, it would be a more active, flexible improvement to the current focus on banner.

 

Feel free to share your own thoughts on warrior. We need a lot of perspectives here if we want the class to improve. Clearly, leaving the state of warrior up to limited perspectives has not helped. The devs do not understand this class. 

[Arewn.2368]

We don't need a lot of perspectives here. A lot of perspectives and myriad suggestions have been given for years. It's all there, ready for the devs consideration. And nothing to show for it.

 

What we need for warrior is one perspective. Just one. One developer on the the design team with an actual vision on what warrior should do.

Any vision.

At this point I dont care what feedback they listen to. They just need one guy on the team with a vision for warrior, and that will accordingly make comprehensive, well implemented, sensible changes to the profession to achieve that vision.

 

Anything is better then the whack-a-mole mess of 'who cares' development they have now.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Arewn.2368

[SolarizedRed.9254]

Here's an idea that I've posted elsewhere regarding fixing banners:

If they really want to stick to the mechanic of carrying banners, I can imagine a way to make them useful by adapting existing skill mechanics:

• First, make the banner utility skills act like Ranger spirts. Give warriors a new skill once placed to teleport the banner(s) to you and give another pulse of alacrity
• Next, reenable the old Banner skills and have them act like Tomes when picked up. Update the skills to give Warriors some strong support or DPS options.

Basically, choose between pulsing boons on group, or grabbing & consuming them to fuel stronger banner skills

[Flapjackson.1596]

2 hours ago, SourceRyan.7814 said:

Here's an idea that I've posted elsewhere regarding fixing banners:

If they really want to stick to the mechanic of carrying banners, I can imagine a way to make them useful by adapting existing skill mechanics:

• First, make the banner utility skills act like Ranger spirts. Give warriors a new skill once placed to teleport the banner(s) to you and give another pulse of alacrity
• Next, reenable the old Banner skills and have them act like Tomes when picked up. Update the skills to give Warriors some strong support or DPS options.

Basically, choose between pulsing boons on group, or grabbing & consuming them to fuel stronger banner skills

That's an interesting idea. My concern would be that it would implement a bit too much variety, making another Firebrand situation and making banner the only good pick for utilities. One thing I have considered is if banners should be rolled into just a single banner. Like a giga Battle Standard elite skill and you have some customization of it through traits (and through pick up skills like you said).

[eXruina.4956]

its not about how, its actually doing it. they are just literally not doing it.

they've been receiving feedback from the warrior community for years, feedback isn't going to do anything. their intentions have been made clear, their actions/inactions speaks for itself.

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[GKC.3851]

I have a hard time believing these new banners were actually playtested. Nobody is going to bring a warrior in that only provides might and fury or one that can't provide 100% quickness uptime. I don't think it was tried or thought of. I dont even think they were ran through a spreadsheet. So... lets try to work something out.

 

In organized PVE if you provide boons then you provide any fight specific utility. Its just how the numbers work. On the flip side if your build isn't specifically built to provide boons then you're not expected to bring anything except maybe some CC. If you're running a dps warrior and bring "For Great Justice" then you just committed a sin against the meta orthodoxy. Prepared to be kicked. Therefore if you're bringing a boon build then you're going to provide an essential boon (quick or alac) with good uptime. Bonus if it can be a healer or provide some encounter specific utility as well (stability). That's not a thing with warriors.

 

Another issue is that with support roles it needs to be viable in all encounters. There are situations where a firebrand can be out classed, but because the other supports are more niche that's what you're getting. In some encounters the banner mechanic is dead in the water. Nobody in their right mind would bring it. That would make the support warrior always a odd pick, like a quickness scrapper. Dont expect to see them.

[Drax.7308]

Im a new player and mi main caracter is warrior, everione is teling that warrior is a good dps or team suport bicose banners, 

But they don't now wath are toking abaut 

Did you try warrior roaming? 

Did you try warrior in HOT maps? 

Did you try warrior in pvp? 

Did you try warrior in competitive pvp? 

Mi point is did you try warrior as a solo player? 

People don't love warrior as a class, 

The love warrior as a partner for the bufs hi gives to their meta class, just in fractals and raids, i did warrior as class is mi main caracter i can tell you that wen you go alone you are garbage, 

Wath the wiki and arena net said abaut warrior: master of weapons, the stronges defens armor 

Warrior is not good with all weapost is just good with 2-or 3, the armour defense does not give the warrior enything

Warrior in this game does not have a rol

 

 

Thing a will change from warrior :

Instant weapond change that come with the class and not with build

 

Warrior is super slow, warrior needs more movment speed ore more dodges

 

An ability that reduces the condition damage

 

 

 

[oscuro.9720]

Clear establishment of differing espec roles instead of slowly merging all warrior specs into one role. More damage back into weapon skills after it was gutted along side CC damage, disproportionately nerfing warrior relative to other classes. Our defense line to actually provide defense like it used to before it was gutted. Diversity of traits in many lines that are filled with useless traits, to which numerous constructive solutions have been offered on the forums. Rework to hammer and mace after they were gutted and rendered next to useless with CC damage nerf, numerous of these have also been suggested. Berserker to not be horrible. Viable ranged weapons. Theres probably more, I just can’t remember everything rn.

If you want a more overarching idea; it’s the fact that warrior operates fundamentally differently than most other classes because of its limited mechanics. As such, what composes “balance” for warrior is quite a bit different. It also makes warrior’s balance very difficult, quickly swinging from extremely weak to massively OP. This is primarily because there’s not as many skills across which to spread utility and damage, so it can quickly become overkill. With other classes, it can be spread out over a large variety of skills and abilities, making the middle ground of balance wider than it is for warrior (and thief). 

Edited June 29, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Jzaku.9765]

6 hours ago, Flapjackson.1596 said:

Warrior is a class that has always had problems in PvE:

1. It has always had a hard time with crit capping.
2. It has never had good options outside of DPS.
3. Its only party value has been CC (so easily covered elsewhere its barely mentionable) and banners (overcentralized, boring, and not meaningfully different in the playstyle from going DPS).
4. It has been very melee-focused.

 

The crit capping seems to be the easiest fix (outside of arms traitline memes).

Just buffing some rifle skills might make ranged power builds more viable.

 

What about expanding roles and party value? There are two things to fix here.

1. Warrior needs to have roles in PvE squads besides being a DPS
2. Warrior utilities, banners in particular, need to be touched up to make them more useful.

 

Regarding Issue 1:

The two clear avenues are boon support and healing. Shout healing is technically a warrior build that exists, but it isn't very competitive. Anet is trying to give boon support utility through banners (fantastic job Anet 🙃). A big issue is that banners and shouts both take up utility bar space. You can't effectively compress these roles due to this. There is also the issue that quickness access is given exclusively through core utility. If we assume that Anet wants war to be a quick provider (ignoring the reality of current uptime) exclusively through core utility, then any future elite spec can't provide alacrity (Because they want to keep the boons separate). That severely limits future design space.

 

If Anet wants to give warrior boon support and healing roles, then two things need to happen:

1. Shout healing should be a viable source of healing. It should have access to boons to compete with other supports, which means that 2-3 banners can't be the avenue of boons.
2. Anet needs to decide what to do with Warrior Elite Specs. Three DPS-focused specs is too rigid design. Spellbreaker lacks PvE presence. Giving it greater boon access could open up boon support without undercutting future specs.

 

Regarding Issue 2:

Banners are in their worst state ever. Picking them up is a terrible idea. Warrior's strength is in it's simplicity. Introducing something you have to pick up and carry around, even if the banners had skills, is not in the spirit of the class. Outside of deleting them from the game, my idea is to take away their focus as the source of boons. Instead, banners should become "territory where things can happen". What I mean by this is you can design traits and skills to operate around being inside a banner. It isn't terribly complicated, and it allows Warrior flexibility in what they can do while also giving them area control. For example, a warrior trait could allow shouts and warhorn skills to provide quickness inside of a banner. While I don't think that core warrior should be the source of these boons, it would be a more active, flexible improvement to the current focus on banner.

 

Feel free to share your own thoughts on warrior. We need a lot of perspectives here if we want the class to improve. Clearly, leaving the state of warrior up to limited perspectives has not helped. The devs do not understand this class. 

I've been making detailed reworks focused specifically on providing utility to the core Warrior toolkit.

 

[Drax.7308]

Sorry guis, but a need to ask this, please

Is warrior the only class that, after they take it dawn and comes up again, will die in 15 seconds if hi not kill a player or a boss????!!!!! 

 

 

 

 

[Myror.7521]

@Drax.7308 It is infact warrior only (cause of a downstate skill) however no one used it cause of simply. Most of the time you cant kill an enemy player in that time but also cause you only get a 20% chance to not get killed in time while killing a player. Also in pve its even more useless since you get only a 100% safe not killed in times thing when you kill a champion xD

[Drax.7308]

And there is nothing you can do to not have this?????!!!!!!! 

20 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Drax.7308 It is infact warrior only (cause of a downstate skill) however no one used it cause of simply. Most of the time you cant kill an enemy player in that time but also cause you only get a 20% chance to not get killed in time while killing a player. Also in pve its even more useless since you get only a 100% safe not killed in times thing when you kill a champion xD

 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

2 minutes ago, Drax.7308 said:

And there is nothing you can do to not have this?????!!!!!!! 

 

Rework the trait to be usable, like some form of support trait for Discipline. 

But that's asking too much of anet. 

[Drax.7308]

11 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Rework the trait to be usable, like some form of support trait for Discipline. 

But that's asking too much of anet. 

If i don't use the discipline trait, it will hapend enwais? 

This is so dumb, bicose disciplin forms part of eny build in eny pages, disciplin is wath makes warrior run 25% faster with core weapons, also movment abilities break stunt, faster weapon swap, remove conditions wen you swap weapons, and with this stupid thing make the discipline trait a complete garbage

[Dadnir.5038]

Beyond dealing damage, warrior is a beast at providing might.

The issue is that currently there is 0 variety, be it core, berserker, spellbreaker or bladesworn the only thing they are "good" at is providing might and dealing damage.

In term of "role", the warrior is probably the blandest profession of the game.

So, how to "fix" warrior?

- Berserker: Add group quickness upon detonating a fire aura on King of fire.

- Spellbreaker: change revenge counter in such a way that it make full counter grant aegis and/or stability to your allies. Make guard counter grant protection to your allies as well.

- Bladesworn: Unshackable mountain now grant it's effect to up to 5 allies.

Simple and effective easy fixes. It's just a matter of giving a desirable "role" to each spec.

[GoguSpatzialu.7948]

19 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

- Berserker: Add group quickness upon detonating a fire aura on King of fire.

- Spellbreaker: change revenge counter in such a way that it make full counter grant aegis and/or stability to your allies. Make guard counter grant protection to your allies as well.

- Bladesworn: Unshackable mountain now grant it's effect to up to 5 allies.

Simple and effective easy fixes. It's just a matter of giving a desirable "role" to each spec.

berserker: Why would anyone play power then?
spb: Would be interesting, but mostly pve, where they can't compete in damage, and their other support is just inadequate.
bs: This could actually be good idea.

[Grim West.3194]

Start with getting rid of banners. They were always stupid mechanic, especially in an action game / pvp / wvw.

 

Warriors are about weapons, not flags.

[Dadnir.5038]

28 minutes ago, GoguSpatzialu.7948 said:

berserker: Why would anyone play power then?

Bladesworn can do it. In fact I'm pretty sure the devs want the warriors to dragonslash through the next few years. At least that's what the last patch seem to point out.

[Myxam.2790]

Warrior has several big issues facing it when it comes to 'fixing' it, that have existed more or less for its entire lifetime.

 

No Unique Gameplay

Warrior shares its core loop, and its measures for success as a profession with several other professions whose variations make them more successful (Mesmer, Necromancer, Druid Ranger, Specter Thief, Deadeye Thief,), with far less reliance on that loop than Warrior. All of its builds performance is tied up in Burst and aligning personal buff windows, making them keep several plates spinning to ultimately land in the middle of the pack when played perfectly. 

 

Deceptive Skill Floor

Warrior's performance ultimately rests upon aligning several windows at the correct time, knowing when its safe to do so, and having its mistake mitigation options tied up in places that compete for limited space in a build, making it punishing to newer players. Further, its not rewarded for this excess of effort that the likes of Firebrand, Mirage, Mechanist, Virtuoso, etc are in their simplicity.

 

Weak and Contradictory Identity

Following this, its identity as a class to newcomers is contradictory to its legacy, outsider expectation, and general perception of what it should be. The name and its history conjure a sense of a hardy frontliner who is hardy and efficient with its effort ( IE, Tanky and Simple to Learn), rather than what we have in the glass-jawed weapon master who needs to complete their sword technique in the flap of a butterfly wing. 

Historically (Guild Wars 1) Warriors' primary niche was in their effortless tankiness thanks to massive armor, health, and inherent damage reduction, a niche that it still maintains today in that game. Warriors should be simple, effective, and friendly to players. Warriors should be a natural choice for Tank and Bunker, not the ACTUAL last choice for these playstyles. 

 

Design Stagnated by Overreliance on Banners

For so long Warrior's decisions have revolved around the power of Banners in the game, from their days with the Blast Finishers in kit, up until Tuesday this week, those free stat blocks have informed and restricted the design teams' ability to expand Warrior's capabilities and capacity.

 

Solutions

Shift Warrior's potency out of its unique buffs and cook them in baseline. Push the affected traits and skills more towards making the Warrior robust and hardy by creating more effects like Might Makes Right, Hardened Armor, Adrenal Health. Offer the Warrior simple choices that give it utility and defense. A Warrior's goal in any fight should be to weather and beat down their challenges. 

 

Banners still need to be a worthwhile part of a Warrior's kit, make it so you can only have one per warrior on the field (by making summoning a new banner delete the old one), and their effects need to be something worth taking without being so overwhelmingly desirable as to inform the whole class.  Perhaps have Banner of Defense pulse Barrier, Banner of Discipline pulse a Lesser Signet of Might effect, perhaps Tactics gives a random temporary skill, and Strength pulses minor damage echoing or something. The value of Boons in such low amounts is pointless. Do not leave these with Party Quickness cooked in, do not leave it on Tactics or Warhorn either. You have made it very clear you do not want builds to have both and this will cripple your ability to expand Warrior's role in future. Spitballing something besides what we have now. See next post.

 

Elite Specializations should be where this is varied. Berserker needs a firm identity as a damage dealer, Spellbreaker as a Debilitator and Controller, and Bladesworn as a deliberate tactician. But again, the focus should be on readability, simplicity, and ease of use. A low skill floor should be Warrior's Bread and Butter, not its anathema. 

 

Closing

Effort should be Rewarded, I don't know how someone comes to the conclusion it shouldn't on y'all's team but they need a serious readjustment with game design, cultivating a skill, mastering adversity, and overcoming a challenge should be the desired emotional goal a Developer wants in their player. (D&D comparison) The existence of Wizards and Sorcerers doesn't displace the need for Fighters and Barbarians -- but choosing to pick the former over the latter still needs to be a worthwhile choice otherwise it won't be made.

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Myxam.2790
Banner Edit.

[Jzaku.9765]

17 hours ago, Myxam.2790 said:

Warrior has several big issues facing it when it comes to 'fixing' it, that have existed more or less for its entire lifetime.

 

No Unique Gameplay

Warrior shares its core loop, and its measures for success as a profession with several other professions whose variations make them more successful (Mesmer, Necromancer, Druid Ranger, Specter Thief, Deadeye Thief,), with far less reliance on that loop than Warrior. All of its builds performance is tied up in Burst and aligning personal buff windows, making them keep several plates spinning to ultimately land in the middle of the pack when played perfectly. 

 

Deceptive Skill Floor

Warrior's performance ultimately rests upon aligning several windows at the correct time, knowing when its safe to do so, and having its mistake mitigation options tied up in places that compete for limited space in a build, making it punishing to newer players. Further, its not rewarded for this excess of effort that the likes of Firebrand, Mirage, Mechanist, Virtuoso, etc are in their simplicity.

 

Weak and Contradictory Identity

Following this, its identity as a class to newcomers is contradictory to its legacy, outsider expectation, and general perception of what it should be. The name and its history conjure a sense of a hardy frontliner who is hardy and efficient with its effort ( IE, Tanky and Simple to Learn), rather than what we have in the glass-jawed weapon master who needs to complete their sword technique in the flap of a butterfly wing. 

Historically (Guild Wars 1) Warriors' primary niche was in their effortless tankiness thanks to massive armor, health, and inherent damage reduction, a niche that it still maintains today in that game. Warriors should be simple, effective, and friendly to players. Warriors should be a natural choice for Tank and Bunker, not the ACTUAL last choice for these playstyles. 

 

Design Stagnated by Overreliance on Banners

For so long Warrior's decisions have revolved around the power of Banners in the game, from their days with the Blast Finishers in kit, up until Tuesday this week, those free stat blocks have informed and restricted the design teams' ability to expand Warrior's capabilities and capacity.

 

Solutions

Shift Warrior's potency out of its unique buffs and cook them in baseline. Push the affected traits and skills more towards making the Warrior robust and hardy by creating more effects like Might Makes Right, Hardened Armor, Adrenal Health. Offer the Warrior simple choices that give it utility and defense. A Warrior's goal in any fight should be to weather and beat down their challenges. 

 

Banners still need to be a worthwhile part of a Warrior's kit, make it so you can only have one per warrior on the field (by making summoning a new banner delete the old one), and their effects need to be something worth taking without being so overwhelmingly desirable as to inform the whole class.  Perhaps have Banner of Defense pulse Barrier, Banner of Discipline pulse a Lesser Signet of Might effect, perhaps Tactics gives a random temporary skill, and Strength pulses minor damage echoing or something. The value of Boons in such low amounts is pointless. Do not leave these with Party Quickness cooked in, do not leave it on Tactics or Warhorn either. You have made it very clear you do not want builds to have both and this will cripple your ability to expand Warrior's role in future.

 

Elite Specializations should be where this is varied. Berserker needs a firm identity as a damage dealer, Spellbreaker as a Debilitator and Controller, and Bladesworn as a deliberate tactician. But again, the focus should be on readability, simplicity, and ease of use. A low skill floor should be Warrior's Bread and Butter, not its anathema. 

 

Closing

Effort should be Rewarded, I don't know how someone comes to the conclusion it shouldn't on y'all's team but they need a serious readjustment with game design, cultivating a skill, mastering adversity, and overcoming a challenge should be the desired emotional goal a Developer wants in their player. (D&D comparison) The existence of Wizards and Sorcerers doesn't displace the need for Fighters and Barbarians -- but choosing to pick the former over the latter still needs to be a worthwhile choice otherwise it won't be made.

 

Great post, I largely agree with the overwhelming majority of what you said - except for your banner suggestion. Pure passive pulsing with a strong effect should not be in the game. Banners should do something active on drop and flip over into another skill you have to actively time / think about using. Ludonarratively, Banners are Warrior's "Tactics" themed utility - they should be flavoured as something that requires thought to use. 

[VexOQ.2836]

It is not just this class. Just look how many options and depth you have in WoW classes and their abilities for every spec. And then check GW2