ArenaNet is leaving money on the table by only producing outfit-tech pieces

[Sarandiel.2906]

I'm not here to rehash u/Zarielzariel's history of skin monetization (definitely worth a read if you haven't - I learned a lot) posted to Reddit this weekend, but I'd like to rectify a few shortcomings of that discussion in the hopes that we can produce ideas and feedback which are actually actionable to ArenaNet, not just grumbling. I also think that this is worth discussing where and when ArenaNet actually reads, not just on reddit on a weekend.

Edit: based on comments, it's clear that I do need to summarize the post, as it's relevant context.
They start out by noting how the game launched with a monetization scheme that included armor sets on the gemstore and note how easily said sets (Krytan, Rampart, Trickster etc) easily mix and match with in-game armor due to having the same fit and cutoff points (this is referred to as "Era 1") as well as how nicely they dye.
They note how the game moved away from this (completely - nothing new since 2014, they're just reselling the same old armor sets made in 2012-2014) with the release of the outfit system (referred to as "Era 2"), and how gemstore skins now are produced using something other than the armor system, as they are bulkier and don't fit as well as ingame skins (though with EoD, some ingame skins use this too) do. The OP calls this "outfit-tech armor" - but in exchange, can be used on any weight.
They note how this at first was used carefully and cleverly in a way so as to disguise its' limitations and provide examples.
Finally, they note how this careful and clever use of "outfit tech" for skins has lately disappeared ("Era 3") in exchange for using bulk and bling to cover up the fact that outfit tech skins can't fit with armor properly due to the differences between weights, and provide some examples of recent exceptions (such as the medium foefire legs) and how much better they fit.
Their post finishes with a call for ArenaNet to do better.

 

The first interesting tidbit about that thread isn't so much the discussion as the insane number of awards being thrown around, both on the OP, the post which inspired it, and the comments- presumably by silent whales. I went through the thread(only that one, not the previous one), looked up the icons, and have the costs (in Reddit coins) here:
Note: Coins  are included with reddit premium ($6/mo, including 700 coins) or are sold individually for $2/500, although there are discounts for purchasing larger quantities. Some awards also include coins, so it's possible to get coins without spending $, but quite difficult to get any significant amount, as the awarded amount is always much less than the cost. Bear in mind that reddit awards do absolutely nothing. So any money spent on this is literally being thrown away, making it even more insane.
Ternion All-Powerful : 50,000 - 1
Platinum - 1800 - 15!!
Gold - 500 - 44!!!!!
Helpful (Pro) - 500 - 1
Wholesome (Pro) - 500 - 1
To The Stars - 325 - 1
Table Slap - 325 - 1
Rocket Upvote - 300 - 1
Original - 250 - 1
Giggle - 200 - 1
Stonks Falling - 200 - 2
Helpful - 150 - 6
Wholesome - 125 - 4
Masterpiece - 100 -1
Burning Cash - 100 - 3
Silver - 100 - 1
Take my energy - 50 - 4
Ally - 50 - 2
All-Seeing Upvote - 30, but can only be awarded by Reddit Premium members - 79!
Note that OP says they handed out a good number of the all seeing upvotes, so presumably not all are from non-OP (who is naturally biased due to being the person who created the thread in the first place) sources.
Wholesome Seal - 30, but can only be awarded by Reddit Premium members - 1
Narwhal of Approval - 30, but can only be awarded by Reddit Premium members -1

I've never seen a reddit thread like that before. That's an insane amount of money just flushed down the toilet. Presumably, said whales would be willing to spend much more in exchange for in-game skins given that they actually get something in exchange, which is why I thought this was worth bringing to ArenaNet's attention.

I also noticed that there seemed to be a lot of love (as always) for the cultural armor (not the IBS shaman outfits built using outfit-tech), but nobody who wanted "new cultural" to be exclusive to specific races. OP and several commenters all talked about producing "optimized for one, available to all" sets, which seemed like a decent idea to me, and the detail and care that went into it came up multiple times as to why people still love it ten years later.

I've also collected the suggestions from comments below, but I'd be really curious to see what you think Anet could do to bring back quality while still getting the ROI they need, because frankly I don't think I saw any real winners in the suggestions. I don't have any myself, but I figure the wisdom of the crowd will be smarter than me.

(I don't see this as something which should be merged into the gemstore request thread, as this is not so much a request as much as meta-analysis and feedback, but feel free to correct if I'm wrong)

Edited July 5, 2022 by Sarandiel.2906
added context as requested

[Sarandiel.2906]

Note that I'm only linking to things which got a reasonable number of upvotes and/or that contributed to the conversation. I'm also not linking to specific "I want this skin/this skin idea" (though I agree that we could use less covering stuff for guys) threads or general hate on outfits.

Thread on the lack of new Sylvari plant-y pieces (though there's some love for the Maguuma skins)

Thread expressing appreciation for the new trend of pieces with and without effects (2)

Possibility of mirroring asymmetrical armor to satisfy those who don't like it? (2)

Dislike for everything recent being flashy (several links - including the post which inspired that thread).

Notes on freelancers

Not everyone dislikes the chopped up outfits

"Outfits are good for alts and newbies"

OP's suggestions:
"

1) Release "collections" of mixed armor like they do mount skins. This could be a way to satisfy flashy and non-flashy fans alike - simply put both in one set. A random ticket for 400 gems, guaranteed for more (600? Has to be more than the outfit-tech kitten), and bundle packs discounting the whole set.

2) Sell full sets for a specific weight again - I'd guess the pricetag would need to be somewhere around 2500-3000 gems. Nasty, but when they cost more to produce and have a smaller audience than the piecemeal outfit-tech gear (which, remember, a set of costs 3000), that dev cost has to be paid somehow.

edit: 3) Sell single pieces - but of a specific weight as noted by Zanji_Hawke

"
Thoughts that an overreliance on post-processing in newer maps was devaluing less obvious skins?

New skins feel same-y?

Suggestion to sell outfits' heads separately or include them with the outfit.

What GW2 can learn from FFXIV's skin monetization

Thoughts on the 2015 commitment:
"

Really, we have only ourselves to blame for the reduced frequency of new armor sets in the game. I remember when Anet added a few new sets to the gemstore every major patch. It eventually caused a community uproar because people were tired of armor only being added to the gemstore and not as ingame rewards. Anet responded, and in typical Anet fashion of always pivoting between extremes, made us a promise that going forward armor sets would be ingame rewards only. What we didn't know is that promise meant we'd see new armor sets MUCH less frequently. That's probably why they went so hard on Outfits, they had to make their money off cosmetics somehow.

Now we only get new armor sets from expansions and sometimes living world, but if the bulk of the new armor sets end up being underwhelming (as was the case with EoD imo) then you're out of luck til the next expansion/LW release with armor.

"

Invisible armor pieces besides the boots for slots which can be hidden?

Edited July 5, 2022 by Sarandiel.2906
more info

[Danikat.8537]

I don't understand the point of this post. You said you didn't want to rehash the post you linked to (which itself is apparently a re-working of another reddit post?) but other than that your post seems to be mainly about some sort of monetisation scheme reddit has introduced. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with GW2.

Other than that all I can get from it is that you're asking for new cultural armour skins, which aren't race-specific. If that's it then that's fine I suppose (but probably more suited to one of the existing suggestion topics) but I feel like I'm missing something here.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Danikat.8537

[Sarandiel.2906]

1) To note how unusual the reaction to said post was

2) To ask for actual suggestions. That thread (it's not a rehash of another thread - here's the one OP said they were inspired by, which is anti-bling rather than anti-outfit-tech) has very few - a lot of agreement, but no real suggestions. OP has some ones which are mediocre IMO. I figured that by explicitly asking for suggestions, we could do better than they did.

[Ashen.2907]

So the OP is about reddit cred? Doesnt seem related to the title.

[Sarandiel.2906]

Okay, clearly some rehashing of what the post I linked to says is necessary context for y'all to understand. Edit incoming.

[Sarandiel.2906]

16 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

So the OP is about reddit cred? Doesnt seem related to the title.

Edited with a quick summary of the reddit post. Better?

[Ashen.2907]

Not sure I can agree with the suggestion that more current gemstore armor piece skins dont mesh well with existing armor as I have seen some used to very good effect. It really reads as if the OP of the reddit thread just doesnt care for the trend towards flashiness in gemstore skin options. I completely empathize with that sentiment and would extend it to mounts, weapons, and so on.....but that doesnt make the sentiment any deeper than, "I dont like this style."

Edited July 5, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Sarandiel.2906]

46 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I don't understand the point of this post. You said you didn't want to rehash the post you linked to (which itself is apparently a re-working of another reddit post?) but other than that your post seems to be mainly about some sort of monetisation scheme reddit has introduced. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with GW2.

Other than that all I can get from it is that you're asking for new cultural armour skins, which aren't race-specific. If that's it then that's fine I suppose (but probably more suited to one of the existing suggestion topics) but I feel like I'm missing something here.

Essentially, I feel like the OP's suggestions mostly suck (only one that's any good is the one about doing skins like mount packs), and almost nobody else actually made suggestions. Agreeing that there's a problem is great and all, but it's not nearly as helpful as suggesting potential solutions. So I'm looking for suggestions as to how ArenaNet can make armor skins more often and recoup the increased investment.

[Sarandiel.2906]

2 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Not sure I can agree with the suggestion that more current gemstore armor piece skins dont mesh well with existing armor as I have seen some of used to very good effect. It really reads as if the OP of the reddit thread just doesnt care for the trend towards flashiness in gemstore skin options. I completely empathize with that sentiment and would extend it to mounts, weapons, and so on.....but that doesnt make the sentiment any deeper than, "I dont like this style."

Having read both that post and the one that inspired it, I think that's true of some people (including u/Xuldar, who apparently inspired u/Zarielzariel), but I don't think that's their main thrust. This sentence is a pretty good explanation.

 

Quote

We still get plenty of blingy ones, but even these feel half-assed. Whether you like bling or not, this ain't it, chief.

 

[mythical.6315]

I believe that they make more money from doing outfits over armor sets. This is because outfits take significantly less time to create as they don’t have to create like 30 variations. 

[Cuddy.6247]

There's already a gemstore request thread that's stickied. What's the issue?

[Sarandiel.2906]

1 minute ago, mythical.6315 said:

I believe that they make more money from doing outfits over armor sets. This is because outfits take significantly less time to create as they don’t have to create like 30 variations. 

I totally agree that outfits are much cheaper to create, but given how almost no non-newbies use outfits on their most played characters, it seems as though by only producing outfits, ArenaNet aren't able to monetize a significant proportion of the playerbase. Clearly, at least some of those people have money, given the number of awards on said post.

[Ashen.2907]

6 minutes ago, Sarandiel.2906 said:

Having read both that post and the one that inspired it, I think that's true of some people (including u/Xuldar, who apparently inspired u/Zarielzariel), but I don't think that's their main thrust. This sentence is a pretty good explanation.

 

 

You see, "feels half assed," translates directly to, "I dont like it." Again, I sympathize. Wanting to spend money on cosmetics for your character but finding that the options available dont suit your taste is unpleasant. Suggesting items that he would want to spend money on, keeping in mind that ANet has said that full armor sets are off the table, seems like a better idea than the complaint.

[mythical.6315]

7 minutes ago, Sarandiel.2906 said:

I totally agree that outfits are much cheaper to create, but given how almost no non-newbies use outfits on their most played characters, it seems as though by only producing outfits, ArenaNet aren't able to monetize a significant proportion of the playerbase. Clearly, at least some of those people have money, given the number of awards on said post.

It could be for a number of reasons including the one you’ve been saying. Players could also simply not like the outfits at all and wouldn’t have bought them if they were armor sets. People could also not want to spend money on the game as far as these sets go. There really isn’t just one reason. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Sarandiel.2906]

1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said:

You see, "feels half assed," translates directly to, "I dont like it." Again, I sympathize. Wanting to spend money on cosmetics for your character but finding that the options available dont suit your taste is unpleasant. Suggesting items that he would want to spend money on, keeping in mind that ANet has said that full armor sets are off the table, seems like a better idea than the complaint.

Given the fact that ArenaNet said that in 2015 and has been putting new full armor sets on the gemstore since 2021, that's clearly no longer the case.

And I'm not referring to the design(some of the new stuff I actually think are really well designed), I'm referring to the limitations of the underlying technology.

Essentially, ArenaNet did individual pieces using outfit tech, avoiding full sets until 2021, but has now gone back on that. Given that they're producing full sets, why not make them using armor tech, not outfit tech. My take (along with almost 400 people on reddit - this isn't just me) is that, while armor tech limits the market for anything produced, there are ways around that (see the monastery set) and outfit tech itself also limits the market for anything produced.

[Sarandiel.2906]

3 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

It could be for a number of reasons including the one you’ve been saying. Players could also simply not like the outfits at all and wouldn’t have bought them if they were armor sets. People could also not want to spend money on the game as far as these sets go. There really isn’t just one reason. 

Given that there's multiple comments with hundreds of upvotes explicitly saying that they wish outfits were cut up and would have bought them if so, I don't think outfits' design being unappealing is the problem.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Sarandiel.2906
fixed poor grammar

[Ashen.2907]

7 minutes ago, Sarandiel.2906 said:

but given how almost no non-newbies use outfits on their most played characters

I would love to see support for that claim.

I have a counterpoint that lacks non-anectdotal evidence too. ANet sees the various relevant statistics and, with this information, has continued to prioritize outfits over armor sets in the gemstore. 

Remember that was players who requested that armor sets be earned in game rather than bought in the gemstore.

[mythical.6315]

Just now, Sarandiel.2906 said:

Given that there's multiple comments explicitly saying that they wish outfits were cut up and would have bought them if so with hundreds of upvotes, I don't think outfits' design being unappealing is the problem.

I never said it was. There are multiple reasons why current costume sets are not being used and it isn’t necessarily just for a singular reason either. 

[mythical.6315]

Can we define armor tech and outfit tech?  The linked Reddit thread didn’t do a good job of it and is referring to individual pieces as being outfit tech. If we going to use those designations in this thread then they need to be defined. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Ashen.2907]

6 minutes ago, Sarandiel.2906 said:

Given the fact that ArenaNet said that in 2015 and has been putting new full armor sets on the gemstore since 2021, that's clearly no longer the case.

And I'm not referring to the design(some of the new stuff I actually think are really well designed), I'm referring to the limitations of the underlying technology.

Essentially, ArenaNet did individual pieces using outfit tech, avoiding full sets until 2021, but has now gone back on that. Given that they're producing full sets, why not make them using armor tech, not outfit tech. My take (along with almost 400 people on reddit - this isn't just me) is that, while armor tech limits the market for anything produced, there are ways around that (see the monastery set) and outfit tech itself also limits the market for anything produced.

Have anything to support the claim that new armor pieces, or sets, are created using the outfit system rather than the armor system?

[Farohna.6247]

Isn't this just the same old complaint/comment about please sell the outfit pieces separate or allow for them to be mixed/matched with existing gear?  

Not being a reddit fan, what the heck is a silent whale in context?

[Sarandiel.2906]

3 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I would love to see support for that claim.

I have a counterpoint that lacks non-anectdotal evidence too. ANet sees the various relevant statistics and, with this information, has continued to prioritize outfits over armor sets in the gemstore. 

Remember that was players who requested that armor sets be earned in game rather than bought in the gemstore.

Given that my second post links explicitly to discussion of the 2015 commitment, I'd certainly hope that I remember that.
I don't have statistics on usage and neither do you. What I do have is the reception of said reddit thread and counts of awards and dollars, which isn't as much as I'd like, but it's more hard evidence than you're presenting. Nothing either of us say will sway ArenaNet if the stats go strongly against it - but - to quote my statistician friend, the same data can present many different pictures. I'm simply trying to provide some context as well as gather suggestions - which I've noticed you have yet to provide either.

[Sarandiel.2906]

8 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Isn't this just the same old complaint/comment about please sell the outfit pieces separate or allow for them to be mixed/matched with existing gear?  

Not being a reddit fan, what the heck is a silent whale in context?

No - while I'd prefer that to outfits on a personal level, that's not what either I or the OP are talking about. Current gemstore skins are made using a different system from armor in order to allow them to work easily on all weights, and it shows.

Silent Whale: Same idea as a black lion chest whale, but as a lurker on Reddit. They often don't post a lot, instead awarding posts they agree with.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Sarandiel.2906
more context

[Sarandiel.2906]

12 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

Can we define armor tech and outfit tech?  The linked Reddit thread didn’t do a good job of it and is referring to individual pieces as being outfit tech. 

Outfit Tech: Whatever ArenaNet does in order to use the exact same skin on all three weights with no changes.
Armor Tech: Used by normal skins. You'll note that these are much more slim-fitting unless the former is a pure particle effect. A particularly interesting example of this is the (non-gemstore) monastery set, which looks the same on all three weights, but has different cut points on each and fits closely, unlike anything I'd consider to be "Outfit Tech". OP also noted the foefire medium leggings as a recent gemstore example of the latter.