Low scale Alterations to Warrior to (hopefully) make Spell Breaker viable in multiple roles in Competitive

[oscuro.9720]

Hey everyone! Spell is by far the most enjoyable spec in the game for me. However, it is not in the best state. As a competitive first player, this is sad, because it is such a well designed, smooth, and aesthetically pleasing specialization that fulfills a very important role; boon counter! Since the fall of Spell (2020 patch), the glut of boons has become even more prevalent, to the point that Spell can not keep up imo. This is a list of lower-scale changes to Warrior (some changes branch beyond just Spell, but most are on Spellbreaker) that would, hopefully, be sufficient to make Spell into a more effective boon counter in a variety of roles (namely, an effective support and duelist). 

 

Note: There are more extreme changes I could recommend (specifically in the utilities) that I will not cover in this post. This is focused on lower impact changes, with minimal reworks to actually executable skills. 

 

Dispelling Force

In addition to current effects, removing a boon from a foe grants you that boon. (basically all strips function as steals). 

 

Benefits: This is arguably the most critical change. The benefits of this are multi-fold. First, boon strips becoming boon steals grants boon priority to the strips. This means the highest impact boons (stability, aegis, protection) that are most problematic in fights are the first to go when Spell strips, making it a very strong counter to enemies stacking buffs. This creates more of a play-counter play to the current boon meta (and some form of boon counter play should be added to other classes, as it should not be solely dependent on Spellbreaker). Secondly, this gives spell a scaling level of proficiency based on the class they are playing. The more boons a class stacks to function, the more opportunity there is for spell to steal those boons to benefit itself and counter that class. This scaling level of proficiency is, imo, a beneficial gameplay strategy, as it doesn't overpower low-boon specs like boon stacking does presently, but effectively counters the boon heavy classes. 

 

Sun and Moon Style

Becomes Sun Style

Gain might when removing a boon from foes (1, 12s). ICD removed. 

 

Benefits: Current sun and moon style is meh at best. Gaining long duration might per boon removed helps to increase the damage output of spell and sustain (if traited) at the same time (what Sun and Moon Style was intending to do), but without being restricted to dagger. This gives a higher might generation potential if played well, and scales relative to the opponent faced (can't strip boons off of a boonless foe), which is, to an extent, the ideal situation for spell. 

 

Revenge Counter

The damage increase becomes a flat damage change to 1350 damage.

Condition copy becomes a condition transfer. 

 

Benefits: 1350 damage is enough to kill a Mesmer clone if it critically strikes with 200% Crit damage, which is, imo, just about the right value. It won't be oppressive to players (around 2200 damage) but won't be a complete wet noodle. The condition transfer is arguably the most critical aspect of this, as the condition copy is relatively useless. However, transfer gives a very useful, low CD clear for spellbreaker. This is something that can, depending on the build, be an issue for spellbreaker, as a lot of high-scale condi clear for warrior is baked into SiO, which restricts the accessibility behind a 75s CD. The key aspect here is that is functions on a real tradeoff, as the alternative GM traits are strong alternatives that fulfill different roles. This alteration to Revenge Counter gives a more diverse set of playstyles available for spell without, imo, outpacing the other GMs. 

 

Magebane Tether

Increase might per pulse from 1 to 2. 

Decrease duration from 8s to 7s

 

Benefits: MBT is, to an extent, under functioning. While it is the best GM presently, its still quite weak. IMO, the nerf, which took place in the 2020 patch, from 3 stacks to 1 in WvW and 2 stacks to 1 in PvP was excessive. The prior 2 stacks in pvp was functioning appropriately imo. Returning it to this state is important for creating a functional counter-spec. However, the total uptime under 2 stacks could be a concern for some (75% uptime is quite steep). reducing it from 8s to 7s would load it into a narrower window while giving a higher reward for having it up. 

 

Keen Strike

Replace might with 1 boon removed

 

Benefits: The might gen on this skill is useful, absolutely. However, building in sun style produces an alternative might gen, and the best function for spell is as a boon counter. 

 

Phalanx Strength

New function: Granting yourself a boon grants it to nearby allies for half the duration. 

 

Benefits: This gives spell breaker (and ore warrior, but we are focused on spell rn) the ability to better fulfill a boon support role. However, as with earlier mentioned abilities, this is a scaling boon support, predicated predominantly on boon strip to counter boon heavy groups by giving their boons to your group. Each steal, conducted while playing spell, will not jsut buff you, but buff your allies as well. 

 

This is a list of smaller changes that, imo, would give spell improved functionality in both the duelist and support role. As a competitive-first spec (which I think it should be), Spell should be not just playable, but a viable option across a diverse set of roles, and these changes help to solidify that, making it an integral counter to the largest power creep source in the game presently. 

 

[JTGuevara.9018]

(shakes head)...

Spellbreaker NEEDS to be buffed to strip boons again. (It's in the name!) Your changes are a pretty good start.

[oscuro.9720]

1 minute ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

(shakes head)...

Spellbreaker NEEDS to be buffed to strip boons again. (It's in the name!) Your changes are a pretty good start.

Yep, I believe additional changes are needed to the utilities and some traits, but those changes are far more intensive, and I wanted to avoid full reworks, since I dont think they are necessary to get it to a viable state. To make it a monstrous boon counter is another issue XD 

 

Thank you though 🙂 

[anbujackson.9564]

7 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Dispelling Force

In addition to current effects, removing a boon from a foe grants you that boon. (basically all strips function as steals). 

 

 

 

Phalanx Strength

New function: Granting yourself a boon grants it to nearby allies for half the duration. 

 

Benefits: This gives spell breaker (and ore warrior, but we are focused on spell rn) the ability to better fulfill a boon support role. However, as with earlier mentioned abilities, this is a scaling boon support, predicated predominantly on boon strip to counter boon heavy groups by giving their boons to your group. Each steal, conducted while playing spell, will not jsut buff you, but buff your allies as well. 

 

 

Dispelling force sounds really interesting and it would be an unique thing on spellbreaker. Especially when you need criticial boons like regen and prot which are thrown around in PvP right now anyway or?

PS sounds a bit too op. Especially combined with dispelling force.

[Hotride.2187]

Make dagger 2 and dagger bursts teleports while you're at it. Make loss aversion boonrip regardless of whether the CC lands (landing the ability should be enough); make it rip 2 boons instead of  the suggested stealing boons. You are already a stat check on war, you don't need boons on you; you need boons off your opponent.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[oscuro.9720]

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Dispelling force sounds really interesting and it would be an unique thing on spellbreaker. Especially when you need criticial boons like regen and prot which are thrown around in PvP right now anyway or?

PS sounds a bit too op. Especially combined with dispelling force.

The point of the combination was to synergize with Dispelling force TBH. The place I see it being actually broken is with Winds of Disenchantment, particularly in wvw. Perhaps slapping a 1s ICD on Dispelling force would clean that up. The other option would be to set a hard cap on the duration dhared through Phalanx Strength. The current might share is a set value of 5s on Phalanx Strength, perhaps having individual caps for each boon (stability: 1s, aegis: 2s, protection: 2s, so on and so forth)?

 

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Make dagger 2 and dagger bursts teleports while you're at it. Make loss aversion boonrip regardless of whether the CC lands (landing the ability should be enough); make it rip 2 boons instead of  the suggested stealing boons. You are already a stat check on war, you don't need boons on you; you need boons off your opponent.

Why would you make dagger leaps teleport? That's not really helpful. Dispelling Force (i think you meant Dispelling force, not Loss Aversion) working if the CC lands, not actually stuns is poor design imo. Adding more rip is definitely an easy fix, but doesn't build anything long term for spell viability. War being a "stat check" is pretty irrelevant in the current state of the game. Should it be taken into account? Certainly! Its already taken into account by warriors lack of profession mechanic utility and minimal mitigation through profession mechanics (full counter was a very proficient means of bridging the gap in sustain that had been built by POF launch). Now, I do agree to an extent, with higher base stats, boon access shouldn't be on par with other classes. It isn't presently, and wouldn't be with these changes. What this is presenting is a conditional, skill required manners of countering high-boon output classes by increasing your viability in scale with the opponents boon output provided you are capable of actually landing strip abilities. By making it a conditional access to boons, it better promotes play and counter play against the current boon meta, and prevents warrior from falling prey to the oppressive aspect of boons, which is providing massive advantage over low-boon uptime classes. Instead, it performs similarly to how it does now vs specs that have minimal boon output, and performs significantly better against high-boon uptime classes. 

 

As for "you don't need boons, you need boons off your opponent", I would argue warrior presently needs both. Boon uptime massively outpaces base stats in the current balance of the game, providing much higher benefits. Warrior needs a combination of reducing the boons on an opponent, which I would argue it does proficiently at the moment, but not enough to keep up with current re-application rates, and boons for itself to counter boon heavy specs. When boon application is predicated on steals rather than self-application, it doesn't produce the same issue that boon heavy specs have presented in the past; railing over lower boon uptime or viability specs. A good example of that was boon beast, a spec that had higher stats than warrior, and significantly higher boon uptimes through self application. 

What warrior also needs is a more reliable way to clear stability, which is quite prevalent atm. Landing a strip that clears 3 boons, and hoping that it takes the stability out of the 5 boons presently on the target when the skill is extremely telegraphed is becoming a liability. having priority assigned via steals also helps a more proficient means of being able to viably counter stability spam. 

 

Once again, it creates multiple viable roles that are presently fulfilled by other classes with self-boon output. Instead of just putting boon output on warrior to give it the same tools as everyone else, which I think would be problematic, implementing it in a counter-based manner it helps to mitigate the potentially oppressive aspects of warrior having the same boon access as other classes, even ones that are similarly a "stat check". 

 

Its also worth noting, this also creates a different counter to Spell, which would be corruption. Stealing boons runs the risk of corruption hitting Spell quite hard when, prior, it had minimal effect because warrior doesn't maintain boons well. There's parts of this that I would agree, if haphazardly implemented, or if the numbers are not further considered and tested, could very well be broken. Anbujackson brought up one of the very reasonable places it could break quite quickly. The other is in interaction with specific utilities, which can be addressed with small checks and balances imo. However, I do not view dispelling force, alone, granting boon steal instead of boon rip as being a broken aspect of these suggested changes, and I have not seen an argument for it being such, given the current state of warrior. 

 

You are free to disagree, I just felt that expounding upon the counters to your argument that warrior doesn't need boons because its a "stat check" was somewhat important to make, because stats definitely don't make up for boons in the present state of the game 🙂

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Dispelling Force gaining the ripped boon is great, it should not have a CD.

Phalanx Strength would have to be a set duration.

[oscuro.9720]

16 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Dispelling Force gaining the ripped boon is great, it should not have a CD.

Phalanx Strength would have to be a set duration.

Yes, when writing it I was unsure how to handle phalanx. I knew I wanted it to function with all boons, but wasn’t sure I t should be %duration or set values. I’m thinking something like; 

 

Alacrity: 1s

Quickness: 1.5s

Stability: 1.5s

Aegis: 2s

Protection: 2s

Vigor: 3s

Resistance: 3s

Resolution: 4s

Regeneration: 4s

Fury: 4s

Might: 5s

Swiftness: 5s

[Hotride.2187]

11 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Why would you make dagger leaps teleport? That's not really helpful.

Leaps dont land and dont track, teleports do. Even just swiftness on your target and running in a straight line is enough to make both leaps not land, to not mention superspeed. Also its hard to chase targets that do have ports e.g. in conquest.

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Dispelling Force (i think you meant Dispelling force, not Loss Aversion) working if the CC lands, not actually stuns is poor design imo.

In a game where stab is infrequent, sure. In a game where 50% stab/evade/block uptime is the norm, it'd be fine. Ripping stab on dagger burst means you have to land it, smart opponents know to dodge it even in its current state. If it rips stab they'll save a dodge for it.

Quote

Warrior needs a combination of reducing the boons on an opponent, which I would argue it does proficiently at the moment, but not enough to keep up with current re-application rates

Plain and simple, you dont boonrip enough, at least in wvw. This is no proficiency. Even with absorption sigil and frequent interrupts most boon builds vomit out boons faster than you rip them. Stealing them with the sigil also doesnt help, you live longer but still cant down them.

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A good example of that was boon beast, a spec that had higher stats than warrior

Not without boons; you rip the might, prot and regen and delete them. The problem is you cant rip them due to having to CC them.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Hotride.2187