Did Anet go bankrupt interms of ideas for cool elite specs?

[Mongk.2458]

EoD specs need a lot of tuning to be better. I still hope that they move the hammer orbs to the jade sphere or attunement itself.

Bladesworn made me retire my warrior, it is so clunky and I hate samurai fantasy, so not for me.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It's a patchwork of players idea... A chimera of some sort...

I don't even understand why there is only archemorus and saint viktor. After all, they wouldn't have been able to beat shiro without Vizu. Worse, they would have wiped the floor without her...

Maybe Vizu is where the 'death from above' move from.

But seriously, as I mentioned before, that move really doesn't seem to fit Archemorus and Viktor, and the pair are more part of Shiro's legend than being legend material themselves. Gameplay-wise, the two-legends-in-one mechanic is interesting, but adding the dragoon jump dodge does make it feel a bit like it has too much going on. Might have been better just doing one of those and saving the other idea for later.

And, generally speaking, I'd like to see revenant get another truly exotic legend like Glint and Mallyx rather than more 'here's this person who was a good fighter' legends.

[Zaret.1450]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It's a patchwork of players idea... A chimera of some sort...

I don't even understand why there is only archemorus and saint viktor. After all, they wouldn't have been able to beat shiro without Vizu. Worse, they would have wiped the floor without her...

the thing is, players didnt even give a bad idea, i mean we needed a good power dps, and ventary needed a lwgwnd to go with, because herald was dead at that time, so vindi covered that.

The quimera was made by anet alone, every player that knows rev a bit knows that pve power was dead and herald too, while in wvw herald was, and still is, pretty decent, so vindi just needed a gs, good skills for pve and good cc because power rev has literaly no cc in pve, they made us another wvw elite...see the problem, also rev itself is very clunky and its mecanic awfull.

If they realy did what players asked for, with a base knowledge as main players of a class has... well just look at engi and guardian, they can do it right, just looks like they dont like.

[Dante.1508]

On 8/1/2022 at 10:45 PM, yoni.7015 said:

I like most of the new specs. 

I like the new specs myself but i don't see them as very unique.. pretty much better versions of stuff we already had, hence they are creatively bankrupt or more like just lazy or no funding..

9 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It's a patchwork of players idea... A chimera of some sort...

I don't even understand why there is only archemorus and saint viktor. After all, they wouldn't have been able to beat shiro without Vizu. Worse, they would have wiped the floor without her...

Do you mean Nika the Assassin because shes the one that killed and did all the work.. the other two just finished him off...

Edited August 3, 2022 by Dante.1508

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Do you mean Nika the Assassin because shes the one that killed and did all the work.. the other two just finished him off...

No, it's Vizu. Nika is from the GW1 time period, two centuries afterwards.

[Dadnir.5038]

7 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Do you mean Nika the Assassin because shes the one that killed and did all the work.. the other two just finished him off...

Like draxynnic said.

But I made the same mistake when writing my post, I corrected it after verifying with the wiki. So I won't thow you a stone for that 😅

[Dadnir.5038]

14 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

If they realy did what players asked for, with a base knowledge as main players of a class has... well just look at engi and guardian, they can do it right, just looks like they dont like.

The playerbase is always divided about what they want. The ideas the playerbase suggest (mine included) are, more often than not, "arguable".

A large part of the engineer community was hellbent against a pet spec. In fact, only a minority wanted a golem spec.

 

As for blending healing support, greatsword and power damage into a canthan themed spec, my personal grip is on the choice of legend(s). For me they could have called the spec "minister", used the ministery of purity as a legendary ministery that managed to purge and heal the empire from the corruption that plagued it. (and yes, I don't think "legends" absolutely need to have been "living beings")

If the devs had listened to the community we would have had a GS wielding norn which wouldn't have made any sense within the canthan lore.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

As for blending healing support, greatsword and power damage into a canthan themed spec, my personal grip is on the choice of legend(s). For me they could have called the spec "minister", used the ministery of purity as a legendary ministery that managed to purge and heal the empire from the corruption that plagued it. (and yes, I don't think "legends" absolutely need to have been "living beings")

If the devs had listened to the community we would have had a GS wielding norn which wouldn't have made any sense within the canthan lore.

Well, not every elite specialisation has to be linked to the region. I know they like to do it for the flavour, but there's still the potential for something new to be developed in Tyria and then appear among those arriving in the new land. That's exactly what they did with the renegade, and even the vindicator technically isn't a native tradition, but the result of a Tyrian revenant learning to commune with the pair after arriving in Cantha.

With respect to legends not having to be living beings:

My perspective is that there are already several legends where what you're really doing is channelling a principle or abstract concept rather than the individual specifically. We can go full Jalis, even using a hammer, and we're fighting nothing like how Jalis did in life... but what we're really doing is channelling the collective dwarf spirit, for whom Jalis is the face because he's the one who completed the Rite of the Great Dwarf. We don't fight much like Kalla was supposed to either, but what we're really doing is channelling the spirt of the charr revolution, for whom Kalla was the figurehead. In Ventari's case, it's no coincidence that the legend powers resolve around the tablet, we're basically channelling his philosophies and the impact they've had on the sylvari. Even Alliance Stance could perhaps be said to be channelling a concept of reconciliation between warring parties.

So a hypothetical "Purity" stance would probably still have a historical figure as a 'face', but the skills provided could still be based more on what the MoP stands for rather than the specific fighting style of the figure used. There are a few possible options here, such as Reiko, Usoku, and Ashu. Reiko would possibly be better to avoid, since GW1 players will probably still associate her enough with mesmer skills that it might feel awkward to have a "Reiko" legend that isn't mesmery, but adult Ashu and Usoku are probably enough of a blank slate that they can just focus on cleansing and intolerance.

Heck, they could possibly even have still had the "dual stance" concept to represent the different faces of the MoP. 

[Zaret.1450]

20 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Well, not every elite specialisation has to be linked to the region. I know they like to do it for the flavour, but there's still the potential for something new to be developed in Tyria and then appear among those arriving in the new land. That's exactly what they did with the renegade, and even the vindicator technically isn't a native tradition, but the result of a Tyrian revenant learning to commune with the pair after arriving in Cantha.

With respect to legends not having to be living beings:

My perspective is that there are already several legends where what you're really doing is channelling a principle or abstract concept rather than the individual specifically. We can go full Jalis, even using a hammer, and we're fighting nothing like how Jalis did in life... but what we're really doing is channelling the collective dwarf spirit, for whom Jalis is the face because he's the one who completed the Rite of the Great Dwarf. We don't fight much like Kalla was supposed to either, but what we're really doing is channelling the spirt of the charr revolution, for whom Kalla was the figurehead. In Ventari's case, it's no coincidence that the legend powers resolve around the tablet, we're basically channelling his philosophies and the impact they've had on the sylvari. Even Alliance Stance could perhaps be said to be channelling a concept of reconciliation between warring parties.

So a hypothetical "Purity" stance would probably still have a historical figure as a 'face', but the skills provided could still be based more on what the MoP stands for rather than the specific fighting style of the figure used. There are a few possible options here, such as Reiko, Usoku, and Ashu. Reiko would possibly be better to avoid, since GW1 players will probably still associate her enough with mesmer skills that it might feel awkward to have a "Reiko" legend that isn't mesmery, but adult Ashu and Usoku are probably enough of a blank slate that they can just focus on cleansing and intolerance.

Heck, they could possibly even have still had the "dual stance" concept to represent the different faces of the MoP. 

i didnt play 1 so i know none of those names you said, as for the legend not needing to be a expansion themed legend, yeah youre right, but i think they just made arche and vicky because they wanted to, its just fanservice and even people that didnt play the gw1 have heard of shiro, arche and viky, so dunno.

as for legenda being more of an abstract concept... well all legends have some kind of duality there, shiro has jade winds, because he unleashe them, jalis made the ritual, ventary literaly has the tablet as a real thing, and kalla, well she was a charr, so vomanding a warband was what she should do being the leader, yes the concept is there, but the character that made the archievement is as important, becuse it is THEIRS, without them the sade winds, stone dwarfs, the ventary teachings, that wouldnt be there, even glint has some kind of sense, herald is a suport, and in a sense is the last help glint gives us in the form of, in this case rythlock, dunno if im explaining right.

[draxynnic.3719]

25 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

i didnt play 1 so i know none of those names you said, as for the legend not needing to be a expansion themed legend, yeah youre right, but i think they just made arche and vicky because they wanted to, its just fanservice and even people that didnt play the gw1 have heard of shiro, arche and viky, so dunno.

as for legenda being more of an abstract concept... well all legends have some kind of duality there, shiro has jade winds, because he unleashe them, jalis made the ritual, ventary literaly has the tablet as a real thing, and kalla, well she was a charr, so vomanding a warband was what she should do being the leader, yes the concept is there, but the character that made the archievement is as important, becuse it is THEIRS, without them the sade winds, stone dwarfs, the ventary teachings, that wouldnt be there, even glint has some kind of sense, herald is a suport, and in a sense is the last help glint gives us in the form of, in this case rythlock, dunno if im explaining right.

Shiro and Mallyx are different in that the majority of their skills are based on skills they actually had and used in GW1 (even if they changed quite a bit in going from being GW1 boss skills to GW2 player skills, and further still in later balancing). For Jalis and Ventari, though: Ventari never had a tablet following him around and healing people in life. The tablet was the last thing he did before he died, and Ventari didn't really have much impact on the world apart from the tree that he buried the tablet in happening to be sapient and destined to create a new species over a century after his death. Jalis - I assure you he didn't surround himself with spinning hammers, immediately create roads, and so on in GW1. These are, instead, associated with aspects of the dwarfs as a race, such as the road representing their skill at building (I'm pretty sure some of this was even laid out in HoT prerelease media).

In Kalla's case... yes, she was a leader in life, but you can bet she didn't summon her warband like they were ritualist spirits in life. You're essentially channelling the aspect of her that was the leader of the rebellion. F2 and F4 are leadership skills, and a leader needs underlings to lead, so you summon them as her legend skills. But there's also an aspect of "the uniter of the other legions except Flame". Pay attention, and you'll notice that her "warband" includes Ash and Iron Legion members as well as Blood, which is unusual for a charr warband even today, and Citadel Bombardment, the F3, is specifically invoking the combined power of the legions. The legend as a whole is channelling the revolution, and Kalla is the figurehead. 

There's a degree of duality in all of them, since you don't get to be a legend without having had a significant effect on the world (well, not until Viktor and Archemorus, who's only claim to fame was playing a part in killing Shiro who is the real legend, grumble grumble). But there are some where the majority of the skills associated with them are directly copying what they did in life - Shiro, Mallyx, Glint to a lesser extent, and I have to assume Viktor and Archemorus (apart from their elites, which are based on the relics made from their remains, which makes throwing the spear a bit... *shudders*). For others, though, the specific individual being channelled is pretty much just a medium through which you channel what they represent.

Something similar could, theoretically, have been done with the Ministry of Purity. Usoku is probably more likely to be the legend than Ashu (Ashu is genuinely fairly obscure, Usoku is... if you've played through EoD and you don't at least have an idea that he's linked to the Purity movement, you either skipped some dialogue or weren't paying attention), and because, like Kalla, he's a figure from in between GW1 and GW2, he's a bit of a blank slate. They could easily have built a legend around him invoking the ideals of the Ministry of Purity.

Personally, I'd have been more excited by a Zhu Hanuku legend. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Dadnir.5038]

12 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Personally, I'd have been more excited by a Zhu Hanuku legend. 

I wanted either of these:

- Ministry of purity 😉 (legendary ministry) -> Minister

- Hanasha coralfin (legendary naga) -> Sibyl

- Urgoz (Legendary forest spirit) -> Forest warden

- Kanaxai (legendary nightmare) -> Nightmare

- Zhu Hanuku (legendary kraken) -> ???

 

Or, just to truly be original, an asura that would have done something within cantha in between GW1 and GW2 timelines. There is no reason that asuras obsessed with killing dragon wouldn't have set up a secret lab or more in cantha to study the jade sea and look for dragons. (human, sylvari and charrs already have their figurehead, while I just can't imagine a good enough reason for a norn to go in cantha)

[Zaret.1450]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Shiro and Mallyx are different in that the majority of their skills are based on skills they actually had and used in GW1 (even if they changed quite a bit in going from being GW1 boss skills to GW2 player skills, and further still in later balancing). For Jalis and Ventari, though: Ventari never had a tablet following him around and healing people in life. The tablet was the last thing he did before he died, and Ventari didn't really have much impact on the world apart from the tree that he buried the tablet in happening to be sapient and destined to create a new species over a century after his death. Jalis - I assure you he didn't surround himself with spinning hammers, immediately create roads, and so on in GW1. These are, instead, associated with aspects of the dwarfs as a race, such as the road representing their skill at building (I'm pretty sure some of this was even laid out in HoT prerelease media).

In Kalla's case... yes, she was a leader in life, but you can bet she didn't summon her warband like they were ritualist spirits in life. You're essentially channelling the aspect of her that was the leader of the rebellion. F2 and F4 are leadership skills, and a leader needs underlings to lead, so you summon them as her legend skills. But there's also an aspect of "the uniter of the other legions except Flame". Pay attention, and you'll notice that her "warband" includes Ash and Iron Legion members as well as Blood, which is unusual for a charr warband even today, and Citadel Bombardment, the F3, is specifically invoking the combined power of the legions. The legend as a whole is channelling the revolution, and Kalla is the figurehead. 

There's a degree of duality in all of them, since you don't get to be a legend without having had a significant effect on the world (well, not until Viktor and Archemorus, who's only claim to fame was playing a part in killing Shiro who is the real legend, grumble grumble). But there are some where the majority of the skills associated with them are directly copying what they did in life - Shiro, Mallyx, Glint to a lesser extent, and I have to assume Viktor and Archemorus (apart from their elites, which are based on the relics made from their remains, which makes throwing the spear a bit... *shudders*). For others, though, the specific individual being channelled is pretty much just a medium through which you channel what they represent.

Something similar could, theoretically, have been done with the Ministry of Purity. Usoku is probably more likely to be the legend than Ashu (Ashu is genuinely fairly obscure, Usoku is... if you've played through EoD and you don't at least have an idea that he's linked to the Purity movement, you either skipped some dialogue or weren't paying attention), and because, like Kalla, he's a figure from in between GW1 and GW2, he's a bit of a blank slate. They could easily have built a legend around him invoking the ideals of the Ministry of Purity.

Personally, I'd have been more excited by a Zhu Hanuku legend. 

well i dont know about cantha and the in between story so, yeah there are prob netter legends out there.

What i meant about the legends is, yeah jalis didnt have hammers spinning around him (but it would have been awesome) , but in the end both the character, jalis, and the idea it represents, the dwarfs and the stone ritual, need to be both there, at least thats how i see the rev as of now, i personaly would have prefered if we got a no legend elite, just getting a classic skill bar where you can personalize your skills, taking skills from all 4 core legends and getting new skills based not on a legend but on the mist itself, the virtuoso kamehameha? give a mist kamehameha to rev, maybe a heal that transforms you in mist and makes you untouchable, kinda like warr or untamed heal, a couple more skills and you would have gotten a cool thing, also it could have been kinda a mix between ritualists and revenants, maybe giving 2 new weapons instead of 1, gs for dmg and a scepter to heal or smth

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 8/1/2022 at 8:37 AM, Rayko.9136 said:

Is it just me who finds the new elite specs extremely boring gameplay-wise except maybe for mechanist and spectre out of the expansions ES to date, did Anet staff ran out of ideas for cool new specs.

I find that EoD Elite specs are just added pew pew attacks with mostly same animations, the new necro is a proof of that ☹️.

Now I understand that some play this game to flex their damage and new rotations/meta and what not, but for me it's about having cool looking innnovative moves that stand out, I have Bezillion (I'm gonna get trolled for this word) of ideas for cool specs and move animations and what do we get instead? 5 potion skills? more wells? just to name a few, I hope that I'M IN THE MINORITY FOR PEOPLE DISSAPOINTED by the new specs because I frankly play expansions only for this reason.

I think they went bankrupt with the overall design, never mind the elite specs. gw2 never had a consistent framework or philosophy except: everybody has 10 skills, everybody has a healing skill and skills 1-5 are tied to the weapons. That's it. And their "philosophy" of what is essentially "no roles, but play styles", does not make any sense. Elite specs were just more convenient work-around for Anet because they were still struggling with the overall design and framework for the game.

As far as professions go, it's confusing. There's all this talk about "no roles, but play styles" yet elite specs clearly bring a different role and functionality to a class, not merely a "style" or flavor! It's like: the design intent does not match the practice. Also, there's no clear consensus among devs about what classes should do and what the game should be, never mind the players! Players, like myself at times, come into this requesting changes to professions based on RPG and class fantasy assumptions or just make up the roles as we go along due to the open-ended stats system.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

As far as professions go, it's confusing. There's all this talk about "no roles, but play styles" yet elite specs clearly bring a different role and functionality to a class, not merely a "style" or flavor! It's like: the design intent does not match the practice. Also, there's no clear consensus among devs about what classes should do and what the game should be, never mind the players! Players, like myself at times, come into this requesting changes to professions based on RPG and class fantasy assumptions or just make up the roles as we go along due to the open-ended stats system.

I don't think that's the contradiction you think it is. Elite specialisations having roles helps to limit how much can be done in a single build. The profession isn't locked to specific roles, but you need to choose an elite specialisation that fits the role you want to fill.

(Wouldn't surprise me, in fact, if alacrity spirits and quickness banners turn out to be a stopgap until they make elite specialisations to fill that capacity.)

[eXruina.4956]

i think it had more to do with making gains and profits amid covid-19. its a difficult time, and big companies have big overhead even when they're making money.

 

they probably just stopped sinking resources into further development of EoD, and shipped it to sell asap as the market was ripe and there was high demand from the gaming industry worldwide during lockdown.

 

it looked rushed and unfinished in comparison to HoT or PoF which come to me as more complete and quality expansions.

[ThunderX.6591]

Considering we switch from save So Won to kill So Won to kill the Void (but So Won die the same) and we reuse previous EOD maps for some story  near the end too, yeah, i think EOD was rushed, but at least, they give us a kind of completion on it (kind of similar to HOT expansion).

I would have preferred So Won surviving, maybe go "in retirement" but alive; the devs could have always sparked a new story from it, instead of "ending it all". Well, maybee they wanted to end the Dragon story in a definite way, their story, their choice, no?