Dps chrono needs more love.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

7 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Why make assumptions about me and what I may or may not do with your responses? 

because i want out of this discussion. i shouldnt have needed to write further just because you disagree, ive basically just repeated myself over and over, just pointed out where you said something wrong and made barely any new points from when i first posted. and now you respond with:

7 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

As to the actual suggestions, that seems like a lot of work.  Typically Anet will not make that many different changes to different traits and skills that affect multiple builds at the same time.  There are too many stacking changes that the numbers could go very wrong or take a long time to rebalance (given how quickly we see Anet making changes thus far).

Is there a simpler solution you can think of?

why did i even want to try if i was eventually going to be rebut with this? im just repeating myself (again) from the start: the main aim is just to remove cvirts crit reliance because its the sole reason stopping the crit chance from being moved (and theres little reason it should stay that way), to move it somewhere where it might do better. anet has never dealt with my specifics and i know that; in fact, ive was already here earlier two years ago or something trying to rip the crit chance from danger time to put into core with less issues. you know what happened? cvirt in betas and the first weeks of release (and jagged mind in competitive even now a year later) is your answer, you should know that was a flop (or do you not?)

im probably going have to explain further regardless - while designing virt, the balance team mustve known that mesmer was incredibly crit starved (its a fundamental problem! fix it at the source!) to put a crit chance trait into it. perhaps we were simply unlucky that they made it a minor trait, because from there they thought it would be a good idea to rope the condi line into it as well, which resulted in a dead line of traits upon release and only functions now thanks to bandaid fixes (2s -> 5s pve only, competitive is still 1s)

which leads to the next point, balancing things specifically is ridiculously easy through bandaid fixes but doing it properly seems to be incredibly hard. going back to the "just add more" approach, chrono can easily be buffed by slapping in some damage mod into flow of time, core mes by doing the same to some trait in illusions and mirage by increasing clone ambush damage by 100x. but what we end up playing into is that fact that every build suddenly needs its own set of overtuned traits and mechanics to function properly. for example, not only does it have access to plenty of unique stat boosts and damage mods, pvirt is also running own version of chronophantasma (phantasmal blades). compare this to the most optimised pmirage setup, traiting for virt is basically offering almost x2 the output. if they plan to make another power espec option, then on top of a 15% crit boost that should be unnecessary, they need to add in traits and mechanics worth +70-80% dmg, which is ridiculous. as with the last point of my previous comment, we often dont get full value from traits so it might be even worse

its balance spaghetti thats only getting more and more spaghetti, and my attempts to try to unravel it and put things where they need to be before it gets worse has been futile (shouldve done it back when it was only chrono and danger time). thats why i want out, the only thing i shouldve needed to say was that cvirt shouldve never been reliant on crit and that the crit boosts should be in core, not the especs. and now perhaps i should add that dmg traits should be updated to give their full value instead of bloating the class with more of them. thats my two main recommendations after observing mesmer pve balance for a few years now

[mungozen.2379]

15 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

im probably going have to explain further regardless - while designing virt, the balance team mustve known that mesmer was incredibly crit starved (its a fundamental problem! fix it at the source!) to put a crit chance trait into it. perhaps we were simply unlucky that they made it a minor trait, because from there they thought it would be a good idea to rope the condi line into it as well, which resulted in a dead line of traits upon release and only functions now thanks to bandaid fixes (2s -> 5s pve only, competitive is still 1s)

I agree that Mesmer is Crit starved.  I don't see that as an issue, I see it as a design choice.  Things not working at EoD launch was common across all professions and indicative that the developers were at best rushing and at worst indifferent to what they were releasing.  However, as they have fixed the new eSpecs we can see the design vision for them and given that Virtuoso has not had any real changes since launch, I think what we see is what they wanted us to get in terms of game play mechanics.

16 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

which leads to the next point, balancing things specifically is ridiculously easy through bandaid fixes but doing it properly seems to be incredibly hard. going back to the "just add more" approach, chrono can easily be buffed by slapping in some damage mod into flow of time, core mes by doing the same to some trait in illusions and mirage by increasing clone ambush damage by 100x. but what we end up playing into is that fact that every build suddenly needs its own set of overtuned traits and mechanics to function properly.

I would far prefer to see these overtuned traits in the eSpecs than the core traits.  By suggesting Dueling have Crit added to it, it becomes far stronger than other choices.  Many people here have commented that cVirt 'uses Dueling anyway' completely ignoring that Chaos cVirt comes in 1.5k lower DPS than Dueling (as per Snowcrows) but offers far greater OW survivability and is arguably stronger when not against a Golem or single target boss.

If Mesmer is intended to have lower Crit than other professions and they add extra Crit to the eSpecs that need it, it's a signal from the designers that they want to empower a Crit based build for that eSpec and not for the whole profession.  Similar to how Chrono had a monopoly on Alacrity until it was handed to Mirage but not the whole profession.  They could have moved Alacrity to Core and given all Mesmer builds access to Boonsharing Alacrity (slide that right into Inspiration why not?!?!).  But they didn't, because there was intent with their design that sharing Alacrity should be handled by Mirage and Chrono.

16 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

the only thing i shouldve needed to say was that cvirt shouldve never been reliant on crit and that the crit boosts should be in core, not the especs. and now perhaps i should add that dmg traits should be updated to give their full value instead of bloating the class with more of them. thats my two main recommendations after observing mesmer pve balance for a few years now

You did say that, and I disagree that cVirt shouldn't have been made Crit reliant.  It creates an interesting and different approach to building and playing this eSpec.  I believe that 100% Crit for no reason but DPS is a boring design choice, a stat sink, a tax.  I believe that 100% Crit that enables Triggered effects is an interesting design choice and tied into a Condi build in a non-traditional way puts this into a unique build category.  We have hundreds of Berserker builds running around, how many Crit capped Condi builds are there in this game?

 

[Noodle Ant.1605]

7 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

However, as they have fixed the new eSpecs we can see the design vision for them and given that Virtuoso has not had any real changes since launch, I think what we see is what they wanted us to get in terms of game play mechanics.

i think its more that they are averse to redesigning a possible design mistake and will only do so under a rework which they try to avoid unless they are bothered enough to do one (because they can just bandaid fix instead, its less effort)

Quote

They could have moved Alacrity to Core and given all Mesmer builds access to Boonsharing Alacrity (slide that right into Inspiration why not?!?!). 

thats a far more exaggerated comparison than crit chance but ok. on a slightly related note, i was reminded that any crit cap intending trait/design on mesmer is fundamentally flawed unless it also innately happens to grant fury to illusions as well or illusions are reworked to use the fury off from the mesmer (so they also crit cap)

Quote

I believe that 100% Crit for no reason but DPS is a boring design choice, a stat sink, a tax.  I believe that 100% Crit that enables Triggered effects is an interesting design choice and tied into a Condi build in a non-traditional way puts this into a unique build category.  We have hundreds of Berserker builds running around, how many Crit capped Condi builds are there in this game?

isnt crit capping on cvirt ultimately just to increase dps?

either way, there are a fair number of condi builds which are correctly "empowered" by crit chance but dont require it to function, including condi not-virt because sharper images (which i was content leaving as is). but its clear we disagree so lets just leave it at that

[Delta.1526]

10 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

on a slightly related note, i was reminded that any crit cap intending trait/design on mesmer is fundamentally flawed unless it also innately happens to grant fury to illusions as well or illusions are reworked to use the fury off from the mesmer (so they also crit cap)

 

Honestly this is absolute truth, illusions should really just snapshot the mesmer's crit chance and Phantasmal Fury should be something else, it's kind of the only option at the adept tier, despite Duelist's Discipline being rad as heck.

 

18 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

By suggesting Dueling have Crit added to it, it becomes far stronger than other choices.  Many people here have commented that cVirt 'uses Dueling anyway' completely ignoring that Chaos cVirt comes in 1.5k lower DPS than Dueling (as per Snowcrows) but offers far greater OW survivability and is arguably stronger when not against a Golem or single target boss.

 

Kinda seems like a lot of the pushback against Duelling getting Virt's crit chance comes from Chaos cVirt enjoyers, and that's fair enough. I wouldn't mind seeing 5% crit in Domination instead; it would be irrelevant for condi builds but excellent for power builds, and the minor traits there are pretty lacklustre -- Dazzling and Illusion of Vulnerability are basically the same thing. 

[zealex.9410]

On 8/29/2022 at 10:40 PM, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

I agree that Mesmer is Crit starved.  I don't see that as an issue, I see it as a design choice.  Things not working at EoD launch was common across all professions and indicative that the developers were at best rushing and at worst indifferent to what they were releasing.  However, as they have fixed the new eSpecs we can see the design vision for them and given that Virtuoso has not had any real changes since launch, I think what we see is what they wanted us to get in terms of game play mechanics.

I would far prefer to see these overtuned traits in the eSpecs than the core traits.  By suggesting Dueling have Crit added to it, it becomes far stronger than other choices.  Many people here have commented that cVirt 'uses Dueling anyway' completely ignoring that Chaos cVirt comes in 1.5k lower DPS than Dueling (as per Snowcrows) but offers far greater OW survivability and is arguably stronger when not against a Golem or single target boss.

If Mesmer is intended to have lower Crit than other professions and they add extra Crit to the eSpecs that need it, it's a signal from the designers that they want to empower a Crit based build for that eSpec and not for the whole profession.  Similar to how Chrono had a monopoly on Alacrity until it was handed to Mirage but not the whole profession.  They could have moved Alacrity to Core and given all Mesmer builds access to Boonsharing Alacrity (slide that right into Inspiration why not?!?!).  But they didn't, because there was intent with their design that sharing Alacrity should be handled by Mirage and Chrono.

You did say that, and I disagree that cVirt shouldn't have been made Crit reliant.  It creates an interesting and different approach to building and playing this eSpec.  I believe that 100% Crit for no reason but DPS is a boring design choice, a stat sink, a tax.  I believe that 100% Crit that enables Triggered effects is an interesting design choice and tied into a Condi build in a non-traditional way puts this into a unique build category.  We have hundreds of Berserker builds running around, how many Crit capped Condi builds are there in this game?

 

Tbf if one thing is intentional about mesmer thats the ramp up on dmg which then we have elite specs introduced that move out of that design (virtuoso). Crit starving mesmer, if its intented is smth new that arenanet decided since the july update because then they nerfed the crit without any real compensation. 

That being said im not sure what mesmer brings to counteract the need for building extra crit chance compaired to other builds.

[zealex.9410]

On 8/30/2022 at 5:20 PM, Delta.1526 said:

 

Honestly this is absolute truth, illusions should really just snapshot the mesmer's crit chance and Phantasmal Fury should be something else, it's kind of the only option at the adept tier, despite Duelist's Discipline being rad as heck.

 

 

Kinda seems like a lot of the pushback against Duelling getting Virt's crit chance comes from Chaos cVirt enjoyers, and that's fair enough. I wouldn't mind seeing 5% crit in Domination instead; it would be irrelevant for condi builds but excellent for power builds, and the minor traits there are pretty lacklustre -- Dazzling and Illusion of Vulnerability are basically the same thing. 

Why should it be an "instead" when for warrior they gave crit to both arms and strength when they realise their mistake? If they want to also make sure chaos virt isnt hit in the process they may as well keep the crit on virruoso and then give dueling (which is, again,the crit line) another 5%.

Unless we dont want the crit from virtuoso removed giving it to domi would hurt the condi build which isnt the goal here.

[Delta.1526]

5 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Why should it be an "instead" when for warrior they gave crit to both arms and strength when they realise their mistake? If they want to also make sure chaos virt isnt hit in the process they may as well keep the crit on virruoso and then give dueling (which is, again,the crit line) another 5%.

Unless we dont want the crit from virtuoso removed giving it to domi would hurt the condi build which isnt the goal here.

 

Oh, I meant put crit chance in Domination instead of Duelling, I think Virt's fury is fine as it is. Duelling is actually very similar to Arms in that is a mashup of crit, condi and power buffs. Difference is, Duelling is absolutely mandatory for Power builds due to Phantasmal Fury but cVirt can go with either Duelling or Chaos along with Illusions for comparable DPS, which is nice. Putting the crit chance in Domination would be the way to give it specifically to power builds and not upset the delicate balance between Duelling and Chaos for condi. *shrug*

[Yoci.2481]

Duelling is usually not used in most PvP/WvW power builds. Please consider other game modes except PvE when you propose changes.

[Josiah.2967]

I think they need to put the Crit chance in base class, so all the specs stay viable. I hate when one is mandatory in almost all situations. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Josiah.2967
Reaction made me realize I wasn't clear.