Asura and Humans Spellcaters

[Alexander.5796]

So, been reading the lore for a while and seems magic was always on Tyria but humans were naturally adept because of the gods and Abaddon.

 

This makes me question: Are Asura actually better magic users than humans? How did they got magic? Was magic always there or was it given to the humans and it somehow spread?

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Asura rarely use magic directly. You're confusing spellcasting vs. arcane energy as a power source. Its one thing to channel flames from your hands to burn something, and another thing entirely to build a flamethrower.

 

Some Asura magic users do exist (like Zojja) but for the most part they rely on machinery like the Charr. The only difference is the power source: Asura use arcane energy while the Charr burn wood and oil for steam power, and both have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

The Human Gods did have their own kind of magitech in Orr but very little of it remains. Humans have a bit of steam tech too like the Watchknights, but for the most part rely on good ol fashioned spellcasting to get everything done. (Until later at least, but I won't spoil the story here.)

Edited September 24, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Alexander.5796]

2 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Asura rarely use magic directly. You're confusing spellcasting vs. arcane energy as a power source. Its one thing to channel flames from your hands to burn something, and another thing entirely to build a flamethrower.

 

Some Asura magic users do exist (like Zojja) but for the most part they rely on machinery like the Charr. The only difference is the power source: Asura use arcane energy while the Charr burn wood and oil for steam power, and both have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

The Human Gods did have their own kind of magitech in Orr but very little of it remains.

So an Elementalist Asura from Dynamics or Statics doesn’t exist in general? 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

2 minutes ago, Alexander.5796 said:

So an Elementalist Asura from Dynamics or Statics doesn’t exist in general? 

Its possible, but traditional spellcasters are much more likely to be from the College of Synegetics as they'll be the ones most likely trying to understand the Eternal Alchemy.

[Alexander.5796]

11 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Its possible, but traditional spellcasters are much more likely to be from the College of Synegetics as they'll be the ones most likely trying to understand the Eternal Alchemy.

What about the council who are all a magic class? Or that we saw an Asura rising a golem in the intro with magic? 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Alexander.5796

[Kalavier.1097]

51 minutes ago, Alexander.5796 said:

So an Elementalist Asura from Dynamics or Statics doesn’t exist in general? 

I think he is misreading your question.

Yes, Asura spellcasters exist. Infact I'd say they probably have more adult users then say humans.

Are they better? In their minds, yes. Asura love to spread propaganda that they are the smartest and all. They use magic to fuel their tech and science in a lot of ways, and often layer extra steps into everything (and a lot of technobabble) to prove they are smarter then their peers.

They had magic like everybody else does, naturally. Though they've been known to sometimes tap into questionable magic founts to fuel their tech (Primordus, the exploded reactor from fractals, etc).

An Asura spellcaster may have an edge on typical humans, given how they have much more freedom to focus their studies and practice in a field/krewe compared to how humans can hit a range of schooling levels or free time to practice and get better with spells, and sometimes humans learn some spells as children but never actually use magic as an adult.

Given how we are talking about spellcasters directly, this hits more of the former part of that then the latter. A noble-born necromancer for example, will have a lot more time and chances to study and practice magic, compared to a street-rat who is struggling to get food and shelter and may only have some old book to teach them magic, or a mentoring older street-rat.

[Alexander.5796]

2 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I think he is misreading your question.

Yes, Asura spellcasters exist. Infact I'd say they probably have more adult users then say humans.

Are they better? In their minds, yes. Asura love to spread propaganda that they are the smartest and all. They use magic to fuel their tech and science in a lot of ways, and often layer extra steps into everything (and a lot of technobabble) to prove they are smarter then their peers.

They had magic like everybody else does, naturally. Though they've been known to sometimes tap into questionable magic founts to fuel their tech (Primordus, the exploded reactor from fractals, etc).

An Asura spellcaster may have an edge on typical humans, given how they have much more freedom to focus their studies and practice in a field/krewe compared to how humans can hit a range of schooling levels or free time to practice and get better with spells, and sometimes humans learn some spells as children but never actually use magic as an adult.

Given how we are talking about spellcasters directly, this hits more of the former part of that then the latter. A noble-born necromancer for example, will have a lot more time and chances to study and practice magic, compared to a street-rat who is struggling to get food and shelter and may only have some old book to teach them magic, or a mentoring older street-rat.

Ah, many thanks. Yeah, thinking about Zojja, Hronk, Flax, Kazz and many others and the council who have a Magic using professions it indeed struck me as weird for them to say that they don’t cast spells but thanks for responding to me.

 

So from this I am to take that Asura understand magic much better and both cast spells and use it in their tech that it becomes difficult to distinguish what is magic because they constantly use and cast it, unlike humans. 

[Kalavier.1097]

6 minutes ago, Alexander.5796 said:

Ah, many thanks. Yeah, thinking about Zojja, Hronk, Flax, Kazz and many others and the council who have a Magic using professions it indeed struck me as weird for them to say that they don’t cast spells but thanks for responding to me.

 

So from this I am to take that Asura understand magic much better and both cast spells and use it in their tech that it becomes difficult to distinguish what is magic because they constantly use and cast it, unlike humans. 

An Asura spellcaster is not automatically better then a human one, but they could have an edge. It's varied by individual.

[Alexander.5796]

3 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

An Asura spellcaster is not automatically better then a human one, but they could have an edge. It's varied by individual.

And they are common in all Colleges, right? 

[Serephen.3420]

Considering how powerful mesmers like Queen Jenna, Kazmir and necromancers like Livia are. I'd say the only edge Asuran have or had was mechanical/technical. Humans have somewhat fallen from where they once were, they are more akin to how elves may be seen in other stories as an elder race. Humans are also not originally from Tyria which is also interesting. 

Though with Cantha in the picture now, it could mean that humanity starts to regain lost ground. 

[Kalavier.1097]

9 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Considering how powerful mesmers like Queen Jenna, Kazmir and necromancers like Livia are. I'd say the only edge Asuran have or had was mechanical/technical. Humans have somewhat fallen from where they once were, they are more akin to how elves may be seen in other stories as an elder race. Humans are also not originally from Tyria which is also interesting. 

Though with Cantha in the picture now, it could mean that humanity starts to regain lost ground. 

I mean, Jennah and Kasmeer aren't even in the same bracket of power levels.

Spellcasters like Jennah are the extreme rarity among any race. Quite literally.

[squeegee.4320]

12 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Livia

It's kind of cheating when you are the only person alive who still rolls more than one profession and also have a reality-altering staff.

[Alexander.5796]

14 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Considering how powerful mesmers like Queen Jenna, Kazmir and necromancers like Livia are. I'd say the only edge Asuran have or had was mechanical/technical. Humans have somewhat fallen from where they once were, they are more akin to how elves may be seen in other stories as an elder race. Humans are also not originally from Tyria which is also interesting. 

Though with Cantha in the picture now, it could mean that humanity starts to regain lost ground. 

But what does this mean? I do not mean if Asura are more powerful than human, I mean if there are common spellcasters and if they are powerful?

Edited October 7, 2022 by Alexander.5796

[Serephen.3420]

8 hours ago, Alexander.5796 said:

But what does this mean? I do not mean if Asura are more powerful than human, I mean if there are common spellcasters and if they are powerful?

Asura are known for their engineering and technical knowledge, not their magical prowess. That's what I mean.

 

The two races have very different applications and views of magic. It's hard to truly compare them. In magi tech Asura have a head start, but with traditional spell casting humans have more experience. 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Serephen.3420

[Alexander.5796]

20 minutes ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Asura are known for their engineering and technical knowledge, not their magical prowess. That's what I mean.

 

The two races have very different applications and views of magic. It's hard to truly compare them. In magi tech Asura have a head start, but with traditional spell casting humans have more experience. 

I understand this, yet you find many of the Asura in the questline use magic, including the entire Arcane Council and the memebers of your Krewe and it's not just a Synergetics things, characters like Hronk, Pokka, Kazz and others cast magic and in GW1 they are refered to as "scientists and spellcasters". So...what is that about? 

It's about that Asura research their magic and need to study spells and also adapt them into their tech and humans it's more like an inherent thing?

Edited October 8, 2022 by Alexander.5796

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

19 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I mean, Jennah and Kasmeer aren't even in the same bracket of power levels.

Spellcasters like Jennah are the extreme rarity among any race. Quite literally.

I would disagree about the first part. Kasmeer is a pretty powerful spellcaster, and it's not like Jennah is that powerful. Honestly, her strongest spells ever displayed (an illusion of Kralkatorrik and the bubble around DR) were multi-person works - the former she had Anise's assistance, another powerful mesmer, and the latter was prepared beforehand with guardian magic visually mixed in.

But everything we see Kasmeer do, like taking down the Tower of Nightmares' illusion, or spamming time warps like no tomorrow, or having 5+ illusions up at the same time, she did solo. I'm sure Jennah could do the same, but probably not much more, without others' assistance.

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I would disagree about the first part. Kasmeer is a pretty powerful spellcaster, and it's not like Jennah is that powerful. Honestly, her strongest spells ever displayed (an illusion of Kralkatorrik and the bubble around DR) were multi-person works - the former she had Anise's assistance, another powerful mesmer, and the latter was prepared beforehand with guardian magic visually mixed in.

But everything we see Kasmeer do, like taking down the Tower of Nightmares' illusion, or spamming time warps like no tomorrow, or having 5+ illusions up at the same time, she did solo. I'm sure Jennah could do the same, but probably not much more, without others' assistance.

Jennah and Anise also froze every living being in Ebonhawke in place with that illusion, making the branded see the city as branded and there was nothing more to fight there(while also producing the illusion of Kralkatorrik so convincing the branded left to follow it). Jennah also instantly killed several white mantle individuals simply by pointing at them and using her magic, as well as entirely casually shattering the magic binding her and the commander in place during the same instance.

Kasmeer took down the Tower of Nightmares illusion, but it wasn't like she brute force dispelled the entire thing. She detected a crack/weakness in the spell, hit that and the entire thing fell apart. She describes it as a poke in the right place.

As for the latter but, I call that under the "gameplay/lore split" such as necromancers having multiple flesh golems at once. We know it's possible, just not to players. The Risen mesmer disguised an entire unit of Vigil soldiers as a risen mob to the eyes of the commander and a mortar group after all, and the disguise itself wasn't really brought up as a crazy feat. And the Risen who had the illusion of the party at the mansion.

Jennah is also stated to be the most powerful Mesmer alive by devs, as I recall. Kasmeer is good, but she isn't top of the class. It's just kasmeer is much more often in a spot where she actually flex and use her powers, where Jennah is not.

edit: It's not that Kasmeer isn't powerful, but that Jennah/Anise have been described as upper level mesmers across all five races in the Tyria area. Using Jennah (or Livia) as an example of human spellcasters vs Asura ones is a weird one, as they aren't typical to a human spellcaster.

14 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Asura are known for their engineering and technical knowledge, not their magical prowess. That's what I mean.

 

The two races have very different applications and views of magic. It's hard to truly compare them. In magi tech Asura have a head start, but with traditional spell casting humans have more experience. 

I'm not really sure where the first part comes from? Asura have always been described as magically adept, with a chunk of that put into golems/magic-tech. The Asura had magical ability and magic-tech, where the Charr were the opposite, preferring phsyical power and non-magical tech.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[Dib.4612]

On 9/24/2022 at 5:58 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Asura rarely use magic directly. You're confusing spellcasting vs. arcane energy as a power source. Its one thing to channel flames from your hands to burn something, and another thing entirely to build a flamethrower.

 

Some Asura magic users do exist (like Zojja) but for the most part they rely on machinery like the Charr. The only difference is the power source: Asura use arcane energy while the Charr burn wood and oil for steam power, and both have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

The Human Gods did have their own kind of magitech in Orr but very little of it remains. Humans have a bit of steam tech too like the Watchknights, but for the most part rely on good ol fashioned spellcasting to get everything done. (Until later at least, but I won't spoil the story here.)

So you mean that all the Asura player characters, perhaps with exception to the Engineer class, are not consistent with the rest of the world? 

[Alexander.5796]

 

6 hours ago, Dib.4612 said:

So you mean that all the Asura player characters, perhaps with exception to the Engineer class, are not consistent with the rest of the world? 

I think this part is clearly wrong, seeing the majority of important Asura are spellcasters who also use Magitech. I mean, the Council, The members of the Krewe, pretty much nearly all Asura you meet are spellcasters. 
 

You could consider most Asura as a mixture of Scholar Class and Engineer due to the inventions, sadly player characters are limited. 

[Eponet.4829]

On 10/8/2022 at 10:50 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I would disagree about the first part. Kasmeer is a pretty powerful spellcaster, and it's not like Jennah is that powerful. Honestly, her strongest spells ever displayed (an illusion of Kralkatorrik and the bubble around DR) were multi-person works - the former she had Anise's assistance, another powerful mesmer, and the latter was prepared beforehand with guardian magic visually mixed in.

But everything we see Kasmeer do, like taking down the Tower of Nightmares' illusion, or spamming time warps like no tomorrow, or having 5+ illusions up at the same time, she did solo. I'm sure Jennah could do the same, but probably not much more, without others' assistance.

 

Something to keep in mind is that mesmer strength is more of an approximation than a hard scale. There isn't really a hard and fast progression path, so what one mesmer can do, another might not be able to.

 

Since they're the two we have the most information on, both the player character and Kasmeer have access to things that the other doesn't. e.g. Kasmeer can open portals at short range where the player character needs to physically walk to where s/he wants to open a portal, while the player character can manipulate time by a few seconds.

[Kalavier.1097]

On 10/12/2022 at 12:36 AM, Eponet.4829 said:

 

Something to keep in mind is that mesmer strength is more of an approximation than a hard scale. There isn't really a hard and fast progression path, so what one mesmer can do, another might not be able to.

 

Since they're the two we have the most information on, both the player character and Kasmeer have access to things that the other doesn't. e.g. Kasmeer can open portals at short range where the player character needs to physically walk to where s/he wants to open a portal, while the player character can manipulate time by a few seconds.

Also the fact we've been told that canonically higher end mesmers tend to disguise/hide what they can actually do, for sake of PR/preventing people from being able to make counter-spells/measures.