Long-Term Vision for Profession Balance

[Franc.8240]

Hello,

This was in the profession post by Grouch on June 30th. Found here.

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The next major professions update is slated for October 4 (reminder that release dates are subject to change). A public preview of that update and its design goals will be given well in advance. As promised, prior to that release we’ll also share the long-term vision for Guild Wars 2 profession balance and how it applies to PvE, PvP, and WvW.

 

I know that the profession update kind of split between competive game modes and pve. Just wondering when we might see this long-term vision since it is not on the new road map.

 

I would love to see what is the goal with each profession and their elite specs. What each specs identity is intended to be, how close they are currently to this identity, and what changes are being discussed for the specs that might not properly align with this. 

 

Thank you! 

[kharmin.7683]

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-fall-and-winter-roadmap-2022/

[Franc.8240]

That road map does not mention this. 

[draxynnic.3719]

Probably the November patch? Tomorrow's patch was supposed to be more PvE-oriented, but it ended up being too bug to finish, so they focused on the PvP side and put a lot of it back.

[Franc.8240]

I found my answer in the September 9th post by Grouch found here.

 

Quote

The October 4 balance update was originally planned to be our final ‘major’ balance update of the year.  However, we’re changing course a bit now that its focus has shifted to addressing issues in competitive play. We’ve added an additional balance update to our schedule for November 29, and with this update we’re aiming to get back to having our major balance updates include changes for all game modes, rather than a focus on a single area. Cal and team will share the updated balance philosophy with you prior to that release’s balance preview. 

 

It looks like this is referring to what I'm asking for. I just hope there is more about the identity of each profession and spec and their purpose in a group activity. 

[otto.5684]

On 10/4/2022 at 8:05 AM, Franc.8240 said:

That road map does not mention this. 

this is not hard to figure out. Mesmer, as an example. Chrono power dps + support. Mirage condi dps + alacrity and might. Virtuoso power + condi dps. What else are you expecting? Even in pvp, this is not far off from how builds perform (if they work).

[Franc.8240]

11 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

this is not hard to figure out. Mesmer, as an example. Chrono power dps + support. Mirage condi dps + alacrity and might. Virtuoso power + condi dps. What else are you expecting? Even in pvp, this is not far off from how builds perform (if they work).

 

Sure it can be boiled down to damage type and buffs. I'm hoping for more about the identity of the professions and specs in terms of what kind of support or utility they(anet) want these specs to bring to the table. How this support fits their theme but is also relevant to gameplay. Also maybe information on how the different traitlines and perks can be selected for different utility. 

 

I'm not looking to see what's already live. I'm looking for what their goals are moving forward. What is the philosophy or reasoning behind class design and balance decisions. 

[Gwynnion.7364]

To be honest, the current balance team's philosophy seems to be: 1) buff the classes they or their influencer friends personally like and play, 2) change some random things or nudge numbers around elsewhere to make it seem "fair," 3) punish any profession or spec they, their influencer friends, or enough random people here or on Reddit personally dislike, and 4) occasionally backtrack when their favoritism becomes a little too obvious.

Other than that, they've been pretty clear they think there should be no difference in effectiveness between easy specs and complicated ones, if they don't punish the complicated ones outright for pulling off a combo they don't approve of.  They don't know how to fix the "all boons, all the time" current state of play so they've made boons easier to get, but only for some specs.  They don't know how to balance around certain professions and specs so they either ignore or break them.  They're pushing for homogeneity over class identity, but some classes are obviously more equal than others. 

They keep talking about mixing up the meta so specs like Firebrand aren't so dominant but then they don't give anyone else the tools to compete and they kick down other specs that are supposedly overperforming.  They don't fix bugs or make changes to classes that have languished for years.  Some of their changes are frankly nonsensical because they apparently don't play those professions.  Like, I understand limited resources but come on, guys.

[Franc.8240]

I think the balance philosophy you mentioned is changing with the change in leadership. 

 

Things like the entire "all boons, all the time" dynamic are very complicated to change. It would require a lot of rebalancing for the whole game and people would either see severe difficulty increases or decreases depending on how it's done. But this is something that could be explored once there is an understanding on profession vision. This would help the balance team be more comfortable with balancing specs to accommodate for whatever decision they decide to make on the "all boons" balance used in end game content. 

 

I think a proper public guideline for how each profession is intended to work will serve as a solid building block for how to rebalance and rework. Understanding the intended purpose of every traitline and utility skill might help with how they should be balanced. Again this is the "vision" of the profession. NOT what is currently in the game. We can easily boil down most specs and pick the best traitlines/weapons by looking at numbers. 

[Gwynnion.7364]

I mean, sure, but aside from being slightly more responsive to feedback in the case of changes to very popular specs, I've yet to see much difference.  They drop a preview, which invites feedback, and then say, "Oops, we're locked in by our timetables.  Maybe we'll fix it next time."  Unless it makes a lot of people very unhappy and then hey presto, they suddenly have the resources to walk things back.  So we'll see.

The boon situation is very complicated but again, their solutions are haphazard and unequal.  They clearly think some classes should spray boons in all directions constantly while others should just sit there and be happy with some fury, maybe.  And then they don't give "selfish" specs anything to compensate, so they are often neglected and ignored.  They know, e.g., WvW is highly dependent on Firebrands and Scrappers but they don't seem to want to make other specs competitive enough to break the status quo either.

My impression is they have no sense of profession or spec identity and the roles they want them to fulfill outside of that familiar status quo, in part because they keep recruiting players who bring their biases to bear, and no one seems to understand or care how all the professions are supposed to fit together holistically.

For example, they made Specter as a thief support spec to open up new roles and opportunities for the profession, and then they seemed to resent Specter for doing stuff thief "isn't supposed to do" like healing or giving boons.  And Specter was poorly designed in the first place, with obvious problems that were pointed out and ignored in the betas.  Not a lot of people play thieves, apparently, and their primary experience seems to be being annoyed by them in PVP or 1:1 in WvW, so the team felt comfortable smacking Specter down.  Now it's not clear what the point of the spec is and I don't think the devs really know or care.

[Franc.8240]

Yeah I agree with what you're saying. That's why I really think a proper profession balance philosophy or vision should be priority number one for the balance team (as well as the team working on maybe new specs or something for the expansion). It's the baseline for everything in the game from class design to balancing specs for boss content and knowing what you're expecting from a class in PvP or WvW. 

 

Thank you for the conversation Gwynnion! I think the more people that get involved with what they want to see in a constructive way (without being toxic and rude to devs) is really important in helping anet speak with the community. 

[Gwynnion.7364]

Yeah, it would be best if they explained what roles they want each spec to fill and then gave them the appropriate tools while ideally maintaining class identity.  Also ideally, each spec should be able to do a couple of different things instead of being pigeonholed into one role the way Druid was.  The problem, I think, is they would need to give some specs way more tools than are currently at their disposal to keep up with those that are already meta.  That and they don't seem to know how to balance different approaches to the same problem, e.g., healing or group stability, and they seem to prefer heavy-handed top-down changes when it's often a couple of traits that are the problem.

[Franc.8240]

I completely agree. Spec identity and then within that spec different triatlines allowing for different builds and sometimes just slight changes to utility depending on the encounter. Like for example needing high single target dps for bosses and then changing a trait to give a little more cleave or aoe or something for more efficient ad clear. 

[Gwynnion.7364]

Currently, though, I'd be hard pressed to say what they're thinking.  Like, what's the point of Catalyst?  It's yet another melee elementalist spec.  It was supposed to be less "selfish," but it was poorly designed for that and then they nerfed it when people started abusing its quickness.  Why did Virtuoso need distortion?  Now I have three invulnerability buttons on a ranged spec that was already pretty survivable!  Did Vindicator really need two dodges and didn't they realize all those endurance-oriented traits were going to be a problem with it?  Is Mirage really still so powerful it can't have its second dodge back in PVP / WvW?  How was Specter supposed to work in the first place as primarily a single target ally support, which the game doesn't really do?  Why nerf some forms of sustain, and from only some specs, but not others?  Why only in PVE and not competitive?  Meanwhile, does Mechanist really need to be able to do everything and easily, even if it's not technically "the best" at them all?  There's no rhyme or reason to it, and it just smacks of favoritism.

[Gwynnion.7364]

And it's frustrating because there are a lot of specs that barely get played in high end content, many of which would be vastly improved by some basic quality of life changes.  You can also see places where they could make specs more competitive with each other, but changes like tweaking Mantra of Concentration and Mantra of Liberation aren't enough to dethrone Firebrand all by itself.  And I don't think they want to anyway.

[Franc.8240]

Yup all things that are being done before we have a solid vision for profession balance. They may have something internally but it has not been public to us yet and doesn't seem to be showing results in these patches yet. 

[Gwynnion.7364]

Right.  And I understand their hesitation about making major changes.  (Arguably, that's why they should have public test servers, but okay, resources.)  Except when they make drastic changes for no apparent reason at all.

Ultimately, my concern is this balance team, like the one before it, is balancing around the idea that x, y, and z specs should just be The Best and everyone else is an also-ran.  And I think that's a bigger concern than trying to balance around theoretical DPS numbers or what have you because even when specs are theoretically competitive by that metric, they get slapped down for some other unrelated reason.

[Franc.8240]

4 minutes ago, Gwynnion.7364 said:

balancing around the idea that x, y, and z specs should just be The Best and everyone else is an also-ran.

 

I don't know if this is the intention or if they are worried about nerfing those things and upsetting players. It's too complicated to make changes and buffs for other classes currently so it seems like they are just picking different things to buff/nerf and see what sticks.

 

I'm sounding like a broken record but another reason to have this vision solidified and made public is so that they can use it to point to when people ask why a change was made. Every balance decision should be looked at as "does this align with our vision of this profession and what it is supposed to bring to the table in this game mode". 

[Gwynnion.7364]

Agreed.  And I respect their decisions to buff certain specs and weapons, to bring things up for other classes instead of knocking down, e.g., Firebrand when there aren't great sources of group stability available elsewhere. If something is way overperforming, by all means, nerf it.  But most of the time, other specs need to be brought up, not down.  

But they're not consistent about it and they seem reluctant to make anything else on par with those top classes.  And I don't know if that's favoritism or just they can't escape the player culture of, "Well, Firebrand has always done this.  Why do we need someone else to do that role instead?  Just play Firebrand / Mechanist / whatever."

And sometimes they rework things in ways that don't make sense, that don't let a class bring anything anyone else can't already do (e.g., the Warrior banner rework), or that don't target the actual problems with a spec but only cause more problems, which suggests they fundamentally don't understand how some professions and specs work.

[Xenesis.6389]

Can't wait to see all the follow up complaints about specs not being the "best" at their "intended" "roles", and it all falling on deaf ears cause boon spam is all that matters to them. 🤭

Edited October 6, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

6 hours ago, Gwynnion.7364 said:

They don't know how to balance around certain professions and specs so they either ignore or break them.  They're pushing for homogeneity over class identity, but some classes are obviously more equal than others.

They keep talking about mixing up the meta so specs like Firebrand aren't so dominant but then they don't give anyone else the tools to compete and they kick down other specs that are supposedly overperforming.  They don't fix bugs or make changes to classes that have languished for years.  Some of their changes are frankly nonsensical because they apparently don't play those professions.  Like, I understand limited resources but come on, guys.

100,000% this. This is so spot on it hurts

Edited October 6, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054