Buff Dueling in PvP - the weakest Mesmer traitline (3 simple changes)

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Dueling is the weakest Mesmer traitline in PvP, buffing it will improve Mesmer build options.

1. Revert Critical Infusion to 5s vigor, up from 3s.

2. Revert Master Fencer or buff the Fury duration.

3. Replace Desperate Decoy (just like you replaced the nerfed passive traits on other classes). I would suggest a trait that gives consistent movement speed. Maybe "shatters give 10s swiftness" or something. Every other roamer has access to movement speed (rev, thief, fa ele, soulbeast, etc etc etc).

 

None of this impacts PvE so it should be no problem to do.

Edited October 19, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[dead.7638]

I agree the swiftness or lack of swiftness is an issue.   Mesmer has two sources of swiftness and both are not used for roaming builds.   One being focus 4 and the other SoI.   SoI needs buffed to be more useful again, the chrono boon nerf basically made the skill obsolete.   The only real issue I see with giving Mesmer a consistent resource of swiftness (keep in mind many classes already abuse this) is rune of swiftness.   I see this rune being nerfed soon any how and issue resolved.   I would rather see chaos trait line being reworked with more swiftness added in.    Unless you’re using staff there rally isn’t any need to use this trait line and leaves it under used by a vast majority of players.

[dead.7638]

Fire work runes with the perma 25% is decent.   If anything I would like to see more ferocity in the dueling trait line to add more dmg to getting critical hits.   The current traits are okay.   But still not on par with other classes and Mesmer needs like at least a 15% boost in damage in some form or another.   Swiftness isn’t a major problem for me, blink can get you around any of the pvp maps fairly easily, just don’t waste it.

Edited October 22, 2022 by dead.7638

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

16 hours ago, dead.7638 said:

Fire work runes with the perma 25% is decent.   If anything I would like to see more ferocity in the dueling trait line to add more dmg to getting critical hits.   The current traits are okay.   But still not on par with other classes and Mesmer needs like at least a 15% boost in damage in some form or another.   Swiftness isn’t a major problem for me, blink can get you around any of the pvp maps fairly easily, just don’t waste it.

This thread is about PvP, firework rune doesn't exist so you are forced to use Lynx which puts you at a significant disadvantage to classes that can use other runes like Divinity.

The ferocity on the sword trait should indeed be buffed (it is much weaker than comparable weapon traits on other classes).

Edited October 23, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Moradorin.6217]

3 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

This thread is about PvP, firework rune doesn't exist so you are forced to use Lynx which puts you at a significant disadvantage to classes that can use other runes like Divinity.

The ferocity on the sword trait should indeed be buffed (it is much weaker than comparable weapon traits on other classes).

IMO it is again what Mirage and Mesmer has had issues with a long time. That is, split mode duality of the class. (Triality rly cause pve, pvp, wvw). The class suffers from the most trade off/split mode balannce inconsistency, right down to the many runes and sigils that got changed or removed to alter what the class can do in various modes. Meanwhile, in pve for the most part all seems fine so much of the player base that still uses the class really cannot grasp what the issue is and why we all say Mesmer sucks.... Its very frustrating for those enjoy playing all 3 modes on the same main Mesmer toon (or who used to). 

[dead.7638]

You’re asking for a buff to a trait line and more swiftness resource.   Like mentioned above all three game modes in a way affect each other when it comes to balancing.   You have to look at all three to understand why some things are being buffed while others are being nerfed.   

[dead.7638]

And for the record dueling is not the weakest trait line, imo chaos is.   Superiority complex is insanely strong, not weak at all.   Swiftness doesn’t even fit into the mechanics already working in dueling.   It’s based around fury and crit chance.   Learn the class before you want to make statements about why you think something needs changed.   If anything remove all the condi aspects out of the trait line for more useful buffs towards power builds.

Edited October 23, 2022 by dead.7638

[dead.7638]

Dueling discipline, sharper images, and ineptitude no longer function in this trait line and need reworked.   It’s a simple af fix but I doubt anything will ever change.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

27 minutes ago, dead.7638 said:

You’re asking for a buff to a trait line and more swiftness resource.   Like mentioned above all three game modes in a way affect each other when it comes to balancing.

You play with Phantasmal Fury in PvE because it gives more damage, so no, it wouldn't affect Mesmer's place in PvE. Desperate Decoy is a bad trait in both PvE and PvP so it is unclear why you are so against reworking it.

27 minutes ago, dead.7638 said:

And for the record dueling is not the weakest trait line, imo chaos is.  Superiority complex is insanely strong, not weak at all. 

Chaos is played on the "meta" condi chrono build. Sup complex is insanely strong; in PvE.

27 minutes ago, dead.7638 said:

Swiftness doesn’t even fit into the mechanics already working in dueling.   It’s based around fury and crit chance.  

Funny you should say that considering the trait I am suggesting to rework gives stealth, something which is more associated with Chaos. Also Dueling clearly has more aspects than what you are mentioning, for instance you are neglecting that it deals with evasion and with condition damage.

Also, the flavor text is "Dancing through the battlefield, swift as a fleeting memory"  which you could absolutely fit swiftness into.

27 minutes ago, dead.7638 said:

Learn the class before you want to make statements about why you think something needs changed. 

Absolutely hilarious that you think you have any mandate to say that. I am 1000% sure I know more about Mesmer than you will ever do in your entire life.

27 minutes ago, dead.7638 said:

If anything remove all the condi aspects out of the trait line for more useful buffs towards power builds.

Conditions have been a part of dueling since the release of the game, prior to june 23rd 2015 it used to give precision + condition damage.

"for more useful buffs towards power builds."

My suggestions ARE useful buffs to power builds, you absolute slug.

Edited October 23, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[dead.7638]

 

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Absolutely hilarious that you think you have any mandate to say that. I am 1000% sure I know more about Mesmer than you will ever do in your entire life.

you literally said nothing that whole paragraph

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Also, the flavor text is "Dancing through the battlefield, swift as a fleeting memory"  which you could absolutely fit swiftness into

Quickness would be more appropriate here

 

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

My suggestions ARE useful buffs to power builds, you absolute slug.

You suggested vigor….  and fury, which both are already easy af to upkeep.

[dead.7638]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Desperate Decoy is a bad trait in both PvE and PvP so it is unclear why you are so against reworking it.

Is actually important for mirage

[dead.7638]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Sup complex is insanely strong; in PvE.

It’s strong in pve wvw and pvp

Edited October 23, 2022 by dead.7638

[dead.7638]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Chaos is played on the "meta" condi chrono build

This is the reason Mesmer is hard to play past p2.   Condi virt is good because the players you’re against don’t know how to remove conditions.   Anyone in plat + can remove conditions.   Easy concept, easily avoided.   Giving power builds the basics that other specs basically get for free in terms of amount and duration of boons is needed.   But not the ones you’re suggesting are going to change anything.    Honestly swiftness is the last QoL I want to see for Mesmer.    Mesmer needs more base ferocity and power from trait lines in dueling and domination to even think about competing vs engi, ele, necro, guard, rev, thief.   I mean they are all out performing Mesmer with half the effort to zero effort when you look at mech and vind.

[dead.7638]

5 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Conditions have been a part of dueling since the release of the game, prior to june 23rd 2015 it used to give precision + condition damage

If you think about it the core traits.  Inspiration  and chaos provide a fair amount of sustain.   Chaos doubles in this category in sustain and conditions.   The stealth in dueling is part of your defense if you need it giving it some sustain as well.   Domination and dueling are geared towards power builds idk why you want to defend it having conditions based traits when it leans towards a power build with the amount of fury it gives you.   If you want to buff this we need more base ferocity.

Edited October 24, 2022 by dead.7638

[Mell.4873]

I feel like this comes down to your team composition especially in high level PvP. Whenever I have see Mesmer do well is because they can use there insane burst at the right time and not be outlasted by a support build.

To buff any part of the core traitline wont mean much since the main thing that a Mesmer relies on is their Elite Specialization traitline.
A diverse pool of Core traits and good solid Specialization traitlines is all Mesmer needs.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

16 hours ago, dead.7638 said:

you literally said nothing that whole paragraph

As did you when you said "Learn the class before you want to make statements about why you think something needs changed. " which is what I was directly responding to. Write relevant comments if you want relevant replies.

16 hours ago, dead.7638 said:

Quickness would be more appropriate here

We already have quickness in both domination and illusions.

16 hours ago, dead.7638 said:

You suggested vigor….  and fury, which both are already easy af to upkeep.

Total nonsense. The only way core Mesmer can keep up vigor and fury in PvP is by investing in both dueling and chaos and picking the Bountiful Disillusionment GM. In any other case, core Mesmer cannot keep up vigor and fury. Un-nerfing the fury and vigor would absolutely help power Mesmer, particularly core power Mesmer, pretending otherwise is deranged.

16 hours ago, dead.7638 said:

Is actually important for mirage

No

16 hours ago, dead.7638 said:

It’s strong in pve wvw and pvp

It is absolutely a good trait but not enough to carry dueling and not convincingly better than Deceptive Evasion or Ineptitude (which is a good thing).

16 hours ago, dead.7638 said:

This is the reason Mesmer is hard to play past p2.   Condi virt is good because the players you’re against don’t know how to remove conditions.   Anyone in plat + can remove conditions.   Easy concept, easily avoided.   Giving power builds the basics that other specs basically get for free in terms of amount and duration of boons is needed.   But not the ones you’re suggesting are going to change anything.    Honestly swiftness is the last QoL I want to see for Mesmer.    Mesmer needs more base ferocity and power from trait lines in dueling and domination to even think about competing vs engi, ele, necro, guard, rev, thief.   I mean they are all out performing Mesmer with half the effort to zero effort when you look at mech and vind.

Giving Mesmer swiftness allows it go Eagle runes instead of Lynx which increases its ferocity & damage which is what you are asking for. Or divinity to increase its survivability.

I agreed that the ferocity on Fencer's Finesse should be buffed.

Also, Mesmer (chrono) is outperforming Mech right now except if you are gold rating.

Quote

If you think about it the core traits.  Inspiration  and chaos provide a fair amount of sustain.   Chaos doubles in this category in sustain and conditions.   The stealth in dueling is part of your defense if you need it giving it some sustain as well.   Domination and dueling are geared towards power builds idk why you want to defend it having conditions based traits when it leans towards a power build with the amount of fury it gives you.   If you want to buff this we need more base ferocity.

I don't have any particular attachment to the dueling condition traits so I don't care to respond to that, however I want to point out that the trait in question (Desperate Decoy) is a really badly designed trait on top of being weak, because it interrupts your channels. For example, If you are casting heal and you get hit below 50% hp, your heal cast will get interrupted and you can die as a result.

Sidenote, it is a bit annoying & superfluous when you make ~5 comments in response to one comment.

Edited October 24, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

7 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I feel like this comes down to your team composition especially in high level PvP. Whenever I have see Mesmer do well is because they can use there insane burst at the right time and not be outlasted by a support build.

To buff any part of the core traitline wont mean much since the main thing that a Mesmer relies on is their Elite Specialization traitline.

And why is that? Because the core lines are incredibly weak.

 

[Moradorin.6217]

20 hours ago, dead.7638 said:

And for the record dueling is not the weakest trait line, imo chaos is.   Superiority complex is insanely strong, not weak at all.   Swiftness doesn’t even fit into the mechanics already working in dueling.   It’s based around fury and crit chance.   Learn the class before you want to make statements about why you think something needs changed.   If anything remove all the condi aspects out of the trait line for more useful buffs towards power builds.

Chaos gives damage mitigation, condid damage boost and also the only stab source/stealth duration buff traits. all of the dueling minor trait options are useless unless u are gona use a pistol condi build

[Mell.4873]

On 10/25/2022 at 1:28 AM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

And why is that? Because the core lines are incredibly weak.

 

Yes....? It is not a bad thing, in fact it something unique to Mesmer. It also doesn't make the Class weak since it does very well in every game mode and can be a Meta pick for some of them (WvW and End-Game PvE).

Edited October 25, 2022 by Mell.4873

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

22 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Yes....? It is not a bad thing, in fact it something unique to Mesmer. It also doesn't make the Class weak since it does very well in every game mode and can be Meta pick for some of them (WvW and End-Game PvE).

This forum in a nutshell, just jaw-dropping. Lmao.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

This forum in a nutshell, just jaw-dropping. Lmao.

Its not hard to understand, I for the longest time i hated the Core Traitlines since it felt like they made no sense. The stealth traits for example had no real application in PvE and were basically useless along with things like the interruption traits.

Then i took a step back and realized it was the Elite Specialization that made the Mesmer what it is, this is exactly why we almost never see Core being played outside maybe sPvP. With this in mind you can play almost any Traitline, yes even Inspiration on Virtuoso and basically suffer only a 4k dps loss on a Golem so even less in normal Open World.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Mell.4873