We need multiple Fervent Forces [suggestion]

[Zergs.9715]

1. If you leave it where it is and "bring it down" you will have to blast it into oblivion to make other (honestly boring) grandmaster traits a valid alternative. 

2. If you move it into a minor traits, you will still be forced to "bring it down" significantly and no one will be happy

 

Instead, have all three grandmaster traits have some form of Fervent Force that would activate under different conditions for different builds (power/condi/cele/whatever)

 

By granulating it you make it easier to control. You can change value of cooldown and conditions under which the cooldown occurs on the overperforming build without ruining the fun for other builds. It's basically what you did to Firebrand. You split its Virtues into separate GM traits and I think it's for the best.

 

What would new cooldown conditions be? Well we have a ton of fun traits across all the professions so some of them could be adapted or reimagined into this concept.

[Beddo.1907]

Anet wants to remove the trait entirely since right now you are not playing Untamed, you are playing FF. your idea sounds like the opposite of a solution. 

[PolarBear.3961]

I like it.

[Zergs.9715]

43 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Anet wants to remove the trait entirely since right now you are not playing Untamed, you are playing FF. your idea sounds like the opposite of a solution. 

 

When everything is Fervent Force, than nothing is Fervent Force. All you're left with is Untamed.

[Vordrax.5243]

7 hours ago, Zergs.9715 said:

When everything is Fervent Force, than nothing is Fervent Force. All you're left with is Untamed.

Except they (and everyone) recognize that "lower all cooldowns by 4 seconds whenever you -perform common action-" is not a good ability. It's like when Vindicator had infinite dodge spam during which they were invulnerable and did crazy healing and damage for no apparent reason. It's just not well designed. It's a COOL ability for sure, it's a lot of fun to use, but it's poorly conceived and implemented.

 

Making it a minor trait and reducing its overall impact makes way more sense, and tying it to things that are related to the Untamed elite spec, such as proccing off of Unleashed Ambush. Keeping it as it is will make it impossible to balance Untamed meaningfully. You'll basically end up in the same boat as Elementalist, where the average player gets < 30% of the value out of the class, and 0.1% of players get all of the value, which is way higher than other classes, which means that the class gets nerfed so that only 0.1% of the population can perform at a playable level, and everyone else is left impotently complaining on the forums.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Vordrax.5243

[Mell.4873]

7 hours ago, Zergs.9715 said:

 

When everything is Fervent Force, than nothing is Fervent Force. All you're left with is Untamed.

Amazing idea and I have already come up with a few ideas:

 

Fervent Force

This can be left alone but add a slight cooldown increase to Path of Scars like removing the 20% cooldown reduction from the axe trait (replace it with something else). This would really prevent the one stun reset on Path of Scars which is why the 43k Snowcrow build exists.

Restorative Stikes

I like this skill but it could easily be a major trait instead and then corrupting vines could be the new grandmaster with everytime you remove/obsorb a boon(from pet) your would reset you cooldown by 4 seconds. 

Ferocious Symbiosis

This one is easy just provide a cooldown reduction like Alacrity along with the damage bonus. 15% cooldown reduction would really help power builds since they don't have as many stuns. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Kodama.6453]

Nope, Fervent Force should get replaced entirely. Everyone was calling out that this trait would be bonkers when they revealed it and it has proven true. It enables way too much stuff, suffocates every other viable grandmaster trait as long as you don't want them to also be absurdly OP, and it also goes entirely against the design philosophy which Anet plans to establish.

Fervent Force was a mistake, delete it and give Untamed something else while also improving the general tools the spec has available to make it worthwhile to play.

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Nope, Fervent Force should get replaced entirely. Everyone was calling out that this trait would be bonkers when they revealed it and it has proven true. It enables way too much stuff, suffocates every other viable grandmaster trait as long as you don't want them to also be absurdly OP, and it also goes entirely against the design philosophy which Anet plans to establish.

Fervent Force was a mistake, delete it and give Untamed something else while also improving the general tools the spec has available to make it worthwhile to play.

The problem is Untamed literally has nothing without something like Fervent Force. You already have very little reason to use Untamed over Soulbeast and the removal of Fervent Force will the nail in the coffin. I prefer the suggestion that the class mechanic of Untamed it tied to cooldown reduction much like how Soulbeast is all pet specific buffs now apply to Ranger.("Sic Em") 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Kodama.6453]

13 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

The problem is Untamed literally has nothing without something like Fervent Force. You already have very little reason to use Untamed over Soulbeast and the removal of Fervent Force will the nail in the coffin. I prefer the suggestion that the class mechanic of Untamed it tied to cooldown reduction much like how Soulbeast is all pet specific buffs now apply to Ranger.("Sic Em") 

And it got acknowledged by Anet. That Untamed has nothing else going for it currently is the only reason they don't immediately axe Fervent Force, but let it stay while they are trying to improve the elite spec in general before changing it.

Cooldown reduction is extremely powerful as a mechanic, because for most classes, cooldowns are the only form of resource in this game (exceptions are thief and revenant). Alacrity is the strongest boon in the game as a result. It's also the reason why Anet is currently moving away from cooldown reduction traits, because people tend to default for them as long as they are using the tool which is reduced in cooldown.

Fervent Force is the most potent cooldown reduction we have ever seen. Not only does it apply to every single part of your build, like alacrity, but it also is way stronger than the boon when it comes to the potential reduction AND you can have it on top of the alacrity boon.

Tying it to the class mechanic, like giving the cooldown reduction when using an ambush skill instead of just CC, might be possible. At least this way it would have a stronger limiter, but it should probably still get nerfed in that case (not 4 seconds of cooldown reduction, but 2 seconds or something like that). And I am still not convinced that this would be the right thing to do. As said, the general trend is currently to move away from cooldown reduction traits.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Zergs.9715]

10 hours ago, Vordrax.5243 said:

Except they (and everyone) recognize that "lower all cooldowns by 4 seconds whenever you -perform common action-" is not a good ability. It's like when Vindicator had infinite dodge spam during which they were invulnerable and did crazy healing and damage for no apparent reason. It's just not well designed. It's a COOL ability for sure, it's a lot of fun to use, but it's poorly conceived and implemented.

 

Making it a minor trait and reducing its overall impact makes way more sense, and tying it to things that are related to the Untamed elite spec, such as proccing off of Unleashed Ambush. Keeping it as it is will make it impossible to balance Untamed meaningfully. You'll basically end up in the same boat as Elementalist, where the average player gets < 30% of the value out of the class, and 0.1% of players get all of the value, which is way higher than other classes, which means that the class gets nerfed so that only 0.1% of the population can perform at a playable level, and everyone else is left impotently complaining on the forums.

Since you have multiple Fervent Forces spread across all GM traits you can also have them regulate different cooldowns.

One can be for example a cooldown for a weapons, second one a cooldown for utilities, third one a cooldown for pet abilities.

Like I said when you granulate the problem it is much more controlable.

[Kodama.6453]

8 minutes ago, Zergs.9715 said:

Since you have multiple Fervent Forces spread across all GM traits you can also have them regulate different cooldowns.

One can be for example a cooldown for a weapons, second one a cooldown for utilities, third one a cooldown for pet abilities.

Like I said when you granulate the problem it is much more controlable.

Anet is currently trying to move away from cooldown traits. Look how many utility type and weapon cooldown traits they have removed in recent patches.

[Levetty.1279]

On 11/16/2022 at 1:11 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

Anet wants to remove the trait entirely since right now you are not playing Untamed, you are playing FF. your idea sounds like the opposite of a solution. 

That is because Untamed is nothing. Hammer is bland, the rest of the traits barely do anything, new utilities are bland and weak, ambushes have such a long cd and are so unimpactful that people often forget about them, and the elite spec mechanic basically equates to a % damage buff.

On 11/17/2022 at 7:47 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

And it got acknowledged by Anet. That Untamed has nothing else going for it currently is the only reason they don't immediately axe Fervent Force, but let it stay while they are trying to improve the elite spec in general before changing it.

Unfortunately, they think small tweaks can fix a problem when the elite spec has no identity and is basically an extra core Ranger trait line.

[Mell.4873]

On 11/17/2022 at 8:47 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

And it got acknowledged by Anet. That Untamed has nothing else going for it currently is the only reason they don't immediately axe Fervent Force, but let it stay while they are trying to improve the elite spec in general before changing it.

Cooldown reduction is extremely powerful as a mechanic, because for most classes, cooldowns are the only form of resource in this game (exceptions are thief and revenant). Alacrity is the strongest boon in the game as a result. It's also the reason why Anet is currently moving away from cooldown reduction traits, because people tend to default for them as long as they are using the tool which is reduced in cooldown.

Fervent Force is the most potent cooldown reduction we have ever seen. Not only does it apply to every single part of your build, like alacrity, but it also is way stronger than the boon when it comes to the potential reduction AND you can have it on top of the alacrity boon.

Tying it to the class mechanic, like giving the cooldown reduction when using an ambush skill instead of just CC, might be possible. At least this way it would have a stronger limiter, but it should probably still get nerfed in that case (not 4 seconds of cooldown reduction, but 2 seconds or something like that). And I am still not convinced that this would be the right thing to do. As said, the general trend is currently to move away from cooldown reduction traits.

We shall see but again Soulbeast is Rangers best class so for anything else to take that spot would have to a buff. I guess the silver lining is if they do nerf Fervent Force we can still use Soulbeast otherwise the class in General would be dead.
They have sort of dug themselves a hole and they cant get out.

I still believe the easier fix is to change Path of Scars (20% increase cooldown while 20% increase in damage)

Edited November 19, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I legit hope every reply in this entire thread is PvE based.  They have to be.

Anyway, since I don't PvE and Untamed was built for competitive--IMO Fervent Force needs to be changed to a get out of jail free card like every other class has if it can't stay CD reduction. 

As example, if you land a CC then you get 3-6s of Aegis if pet unleashed or like 6s of vigor and 2-3s of superspeed if ranger unleashed.  Needs to apply on pet CC as well.  Can make an ICD of like 2s or something to prevent mad CC chaining giving you like 10s of superspeed lol.  

Edited November 19, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Levetty.1279]

Yes people talk about the mode that is actually played. 🙄