Yet another acrobatics suggestion thread (yay!)

[nopoet.2960]

There's not an acrobatics thread on the first page so I'm here to remedy that.  I tried to think through traits that would play well with other specs and expand the theme already present.  What do you guys think?

 

Minor Adept:  (no change) Expeditious Dodger - Gain swiftness upon dodging.

Major Adept:  

1. (new) Momentum - Your next attack after using a weapon skill that moves you (including shadowsteps) will refund 1 initiative (3 second cooldown)
2. (udpated) Vigorous Recovery - Gain bonus healing power. Gain vigor when using a healing skill.
3. (no change) Pain Response - Gain regeneration and remove damaging conditions when struck while below the health threshold.

Minor Master: (no change) Feline Grace - Gain vigor upon successfully evading an attack.

Major Master:

1. (new) Gear Shift - Swapping weapons also swaps your power and condition damage stats for 12 secs (8 sec cooldown)
2. (no change) Swindler's Equilibrium - Successfully evading an attack while wielding a sword or spear recharges Steal. Swords and spears deal increased damage.
3. (updated) Catching Shadows - Gain endurance and Dark Aura when you shadowstep.

Minor Grandmaster: (no change) Endless Stamina - The effects of vigor on you are enhanced. Gain bonus concentration.

Major Grandmaster:   

1. (new) Acceleration - Gain 1.5 seconds of quickness and alacrity when you use a utility skill
2. (no change) Upper Hand - Gain initiative and regeneration when you evade an attack.
3. (updated) Don't Stop - Controlling effects remove swiftness but while you have swiftness you are immune to there effects. When you gain swiftness, lose a movement-impairing condition
4. (updated) Ineffable Balance - While you have swiftness; push, pull, launch, sink, and float are converted to stun.  When you gain swiftness lose a movement impairing condition.
5. (updated) Don't Stop - When you gain swiftness, lose a movement-impairing condition.  Gain stability periodically while you have swiftness.

Edited December 20, 2022 by nopoet.2960

[FrancisN.9276]

Or we can change the design philosophy of Acrobatics into something "non-selfish" like giving boons (quickness/alacrity) to teammates.

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, FrancisN.9276 said:

Or we can change the design philosophy of Acrobatics into something "non-selfish" like giving boons (quickness/alacrity) to teammates.

Quickness is basically ruled out for thief to get added to core in AoE.

Specter already can provide alacrity in AoE, giving acrobatics as a core trait line access to AoE quickness would mean that specter could provide both boons in AoE at the same time, which is something that Anet generally forbids to happen (hence why chronomancer got their grandmaster traits reworked so quickness and alacrity share are on 2 seperate grandmaster traits; a chronomancer can provide either quickness or alacrity, but not both).

@nopoet.2960there are many suggestions I like in this thread, but 2 in particular seem kinda busted and need you to look at them again in my opinion.

On 12/11/2022 at 3:58 PM, nopoet.2960 said:

(new) Gear Shift - Swaping weapons also swaps your power and condition damage stats for 12 secs (8 sec cooldown)

This trait would probably become a major problem in competitive game modes. It allows your build to have both, power damage and condition damage pressure, while just having to invest into power damage basically.

Which would make defending against a build using that trait extremely hard, because if you encounter an enemy who can defend well against power damage then you just use your condition damage set and if you encounter someone with lots of condition cleanse, then you use your power damage set.

Especially for a master tier trait, this seems way too powerful and lacking counterplay.

On 12/11/2022 at 3:58 PM, nopoet.2960 said:

(updated) Don't Stop - Controlling effects remove swiftness but while you have swiftness you are immune to there effects. When you gain swiftness, lose a movement-impairing condition.

This trait.... basically makes swiftness work like stability, if I understand that correctly? Considering how much access there is to swiftness, I think this might make thief specs (especially daredevil) too resilient against CC.

[Chips.7968]

I hear the sound of splinters... oh it's a dead horse. Wait, WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO IT?!?!?!!!!

 

I have to admire optimism. Though optimism isn't the usual word 😄😄 (I should point out, it took years to fix a few 300s cooldown traits. They've only just gone "Tah DAH!!!" with the acro update. 

I'd not be holding my breath anything further will change on that line before 2042. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Chips.7968

[nopoet.2960]

On 12/13/2022 at 2:57 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

@nopoet.2960there are many suggestions I like in this thread, but 2 in particular seem kinda busted and need you to look at them again in my opinion.

So here's my take on it.  Specing into acrobatics is never going to be optimal because it's primarily  defensive.  With the exception of some specter builds thieves are expected to deliver damage and a lot of it.  So the question is how do we make acro good enough that people would actually us it but not so good that it becomes a problem. 

 

To my mind  Gear Shift simply adds flexibility to create different weapon combos; staff/shot bow could be a thing for instance.  I don't think it adds power so I don't see how it could be overpowered .  Like I said before you are making a pretty serious trade off by going into acro at all.

 

I agree my suggestion to Don't Stop will make thieves resilient to ccs.  That's actually the point.  This one trait in this defensive spec should have the potential to change the way you play your thief.  Again remember your job as a thief is max dps.  This trait doesn't help you get there but it could add some variety to your play style.  

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, nopoet.2960 said:

To my mind  Gear Shift simply adds flexibility to create different weapon combos; staff/shot bow could be a thing for instance.  I don't think it adds power so I don't see how it could be overpowered .  Like I said before you are making a pretty serious trade off by going into acro at all.

In my opinion, it does add power.

This trait allows you to run a hybrid damage build without the penalty which usually comes with such builds: having to split up your stats, therefore having less of the individual stats.

Instead of having to spread your available stats across power and condition damage both, you can invest everything into power as if you are running a pure power build, but then the trait converts the power into condition damage and therefore you get both stats for your weapons without having to split the stats.

And in competitive, I think this can be a pretty big deal. Usually, if you run a power build, there will be other builds able to defend well against that, making you less effective. If you run a condition build, you will struggle against builds with lots of condi cleanse. The advantage of hybrid builds is that they can use the weak spot of both enemy types but at the cost of having the components deal less damage than if you run a builds purely focused on one damage type. Your trait removes that downside and makes it work fully for both damage types.

2 hours ago, nopoet.2960 said:

I agree my suggestion to Don't Stop will make thieves resilient to ccs.  That's actually the point.  This one trait in this defensive spec should have the potential to change the way you play your thief.  Again remember your job as a thief is max dps.  This trait doesn't help you get there but it could add some variety to your play style.  

There is something as too much, tho. Giving thief some more options against CC is totally fair and understandable, but having something as spammable as swiftness work functionally as stability is concerning.

[nopoet.2960]

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

...Instead of having to spread your available stats across power and condition damage both, you can invest everything into power as if you are running a pure power build, but then the trait converts the power into condition damage and therefore you get both stats for your weapons without having to split the stats...

I don't know man.  Your argument against Gear Shift just makes me want it more.  You make it sound so cool.  

Don't Stop might be over done but I still think we need something of that caliber to move folks into acro.  It's just going to continue to be ignored otherwise and not really provide and build diversity.

[nopoet.2960]

Ok @Kodama.6453 Updated Don't Stop in the op based on your feedback.  Still too much?

[Venport.3925]

I actually like the idea to give thief some cc resistance with don't stop, but how about this:

- Don't Stop: when you grant swiftness, grant 3s stability (1 stack)

Applies to swiftness given to allies and maybe could be more stacks/longer duration if necessary 

[Chips.7968]

4 hours ago, Venport.3925 said:

I actually like the idea to give thief some cc resistance with don't stop, but how about this:

- Don't Stop: when you grant swiftness, grant 3s stability (1 stack)

Applies to swiftness given to allies and maybe could be more stacks/longer duration if necessary 

Grant swiftness to whom/where? After all, first minor in acro gives swiftness on dodging, and dash gives swiftness on dodge. Steal gives swiftness if traited (thrill of the crime) or lesser haste, as can various runes (fireworks), haste and other sources.

So is this "any" grant, or only to allies (is that just thrill of crime) or... find it weird if *only* on granting to allies.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Chips.7968

[Kodama.6453]

7 hours ago, Venport.3925 said:

I actually like the idea to give thief some cc resistance with don't stop, but how about this:

- Don't Stop: when you grant swiftness, grant 3s stability (1 stack)

Applies to swiftness given to allies and maybe could be more stacks/longer duration if necessary 

Give this trait an individual cooldown per target and this is golden.

[nopoet.2960]

7 hours ago, Venport.3925 said:

I actually like the idea to give thief some cc resistance with don't stop, but how about this:

- Don't Stop: when you grant swiftness, grant 3s stability (1 stack)

Applies to swiftness given to allies and maybe could be more stacks/longer duration if necessary 

We can work with this!  How about: Periodically grants Stability when you have swiftness.  

I'm thinking 3 seconds of Stability every 8 seconds.  There is a necro trait that does something similar with protection.  It's not full coverage like I want but I could live with it.

Who has doubletap's number to let him know we fixed accro?

[Venport.3925]

16 hours ago, nopoet.2960 said:

We can work with this!  How about: Periodically grants Stability when you have swiftness.  

I'm thinking 3 seconds of Stability every 8 seconds.  There is a necro trait that does something similar with protection.  It's not full coverage like I want but I could live with it.

Who has doubletap's number to let him know we fixed accro?

To be more clear: my intent is for thief to be able to gain stability when it gives swiftness, and provide stability to allies that are granted swiftness from that thief, though I do think the pulsing could perhaps add consistency (though I think it would have to only pulse for the thief, since that would get a little op otherwise)

So maybe something like 
1. Swiftness is applied through a use of one of the thief skills/mechanics that grant it (thrill of the crime, acro dodges, daredevil dodge, or haste if people are crazy enough to use that on a regular basis)
2. For each target that recieved a stack of swiftness, give them 3s of stability
3. While the thief has swiftness, gain stability at a set interval (Perhaps this could be slotted onto a minor trait to keep things clean, and since self stability is a bit less broken)

[nopoet.2960]

23 hours ago, Venport.3925 said:

To be more clear: my intent is for thief to be able to gain stability when it gives swiftness, and provide stability to allies that are granted swiftness from that thief, though I do think the pulsing could perhaps add consistency (though I think it would have to only pulse for the thief, since that would get a little op otherwise)

Oh, I didn't grasp the ally buff part.  I think it's a neat idea but I don't think that fits the theme for core thief.  Something like that would have to show up in the form of a elite spec.

I'm going to update the original post one more time.  With the words Don't Stop - When you gain swiftness, lose a movement-impairing condition.  Gain stability periodically while you have swiftness.

I imagine the stability part working like this:  Gain 8 seconds or Stability after having Swiftness for 8 seconds.  A bit a of a buff from what I wrote before but I can dream.

Edited December 20, 2022 by nopoet.2960

[Venport.3925]

22 hours ago, nopoet.2960 said:

Oh, I didn't grasp the ally buff part.  I think it's a neat idea but I don't think that fits the theme for core thief.  Something like that would have to show up in the form of a elite spec.

I think its worth being critical of the original theme of the core thief; and even breaking that to a degree, because leaning into that too heavily did lead to us pretty much only ever having roles as dps and not really much else, though I could perhaps see an argument of watering down what the intent of the specific traitline is to be a bit better

[Noko Anon.9154]

Move Signets from Critical Strikes to Acrobatics. The +25% movement speed, extra power, and condition cleansing would all suit Acrobatics thematically better than they currently do with Critical Strikes. Have Acrobatics choose to either enhance the group's mobility by pulsing swiftness, play a kiting / roaming role by having selfish resistance or, to play offensively, a means of reliably inflicting cripple on enemies. Differentiate it from Daredevil by letting DD not have access to swiftness or resistance. Instead, let DD provide reliable vigor and reward timed evasions with energy / initiative for dueling. Give DD personal quickness on an internal cooldown when performing key interrupts for dueling. Let DD share a short-duration vigor (1-2sec) with nearby allies, and give a trait option to grant allies quickness (1sec) when granting them vigor. Let DD keep the long dodge, extra dodges, and snare removal as roaming tools.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

On 12/18/2022 at 3:57 PM, nopoet.2960 said:

We can work with this!  How about: Periodically grants Stability when you have swiftness.  

I'm thinking 3 seconds of Stability every 8 seconds.  There is a necro trait that does something similar with protection.  It's not full coverage like I want but I could live with it.

Who has doubletap's number to let him know we fixed accro?

Hes in our thief only guild but not logged in on that account in a month. U can always tag him here lol