Warrior and Critical hit

[nuwanomura.5763]

Anet please rework arms so it can be used by condi and power without forcing the builds to intersect with trait and minors that just benefits one type of build.

[Infusion.7149]

While I would like arms to be reworked to not require crits, it isn't true that Arms is used on power builds. It's almost always run on condi builds exclusively.

Most power builds run strength , discipline, plus more recently tactics or defense after damage modifiers were added. That is part of why you won't see any builds other than condition berserker as a condi builds.

[nuwanomura.5763]

I know arms is not used in power build and thats the issue. i want more crit chance but if i take arms i have to take 2 condi minors as waste.

[nuwanomura.5763]

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

While I would like arms to be reworked to not require crits, it isn't true that Arms is used on power builds. It's almost always run on condi builds exclusively.

Most power builds run strength , discipline, plus more recently tactics or defense after damage modifiers were added. That is part of why you won't see any builds other than condition berserker as a condi builds.

 deep strikes and bloodlust are useless as power build and i must take them.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

59 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

While I would like arms to be reworked to not require crits, it isn't true that Arms is used on power builds. It's almost always run on condi builds exclusively.

Most power builds run strength , discipline, plus more recently tactics or defense after damage modifiers were added. That is part of why you won't see any builds other than condition berserker as a condi builds.

Plenty of off meta power builds run Arms. A lot of the OW BSW builds run Arms for Burst Precision. 

When I run my Sentinel Roamer I use Arms.

It's the meta condi tree, because it's the only condi tree while all the others augmentation power damage.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I agree with the OP; Arms needs to keep its hybrid identity but needs to offer more for power builds.

 

I currently use Arms fairly effectively on BSW in PvP, but there is a lot of lost value in the minor traits.

 

@nuwanomura.5763 here are some ideas for a better hybrid Arms tree:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/122719-dear-anet-please-re-work-arms/

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Plenty of off meta power builds run Arms. A lot of the OW BSW builds run Arms for Burst Precision. 

When I run my Sentinel Roamer I use Arms.

It's the meta condi tree, because it's the only condi tree while all the others augmentation power damage.

I'd consider any build running Sentinel to be an edge case, it is a niche use of the Arms traitline. It is far more likely someone would be running marauder in WVW if intending to do damage and let's not forget Bladesworn damage on burst (in PVP/WVW) is lacking as it is.

The shout bladesworn that was nerfed previously was running Berserker amulet with Soldier (Trooper) rune after all.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

35 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I'd consider any build running Sentinel to be an edge case, it is a niche use of the Arms traitline. It is far more likely someone would be running marauder in WVW if intending to do damage and let's not forget Bladesworn damage on burst (in PVP/WVW) is lacking as it is.

The shout bladesworn that was nerfed previously was running Berserker amulet with Soldier (Trooper) rune after all.

See CTS's statement above. There is a lot for Power within Arms. An extra 500 ferocity, +50% crit chance versus CC'd and now +25% crit versus defiant foes, and 100% crit on Bursts are all things that benefit Power Builds. Even Opportunist and Sundering Bursts benefit power builds. The only ones that don't are Wounding Precision, Blademaster, and Dual Wielding which benefits nobody at all and the minors. It's just mostly raw crit chance, which is useless if you already are crit capped, or vuln stacks which should be covered elsewhere by your party.

[Infusion.7149]

59 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

See CTS's statement above. There is a lot for Power within Arms. An extra 500 ferocity, +50% crit chance versus CC'd and now +25% crit versus defiant foes, and 100% crit on Bursts are all things that benefit Power Builds. Even Opportunist and Sundering Bursts benefit power builds. The only ones that don't are Wounding Precision, Blademaster, and Dual Wielding which benefits nobody at all and the minors. It's just mostly raw crit chance, which is useless if you already are crit capped, or vuln stacks which should be covered elsewhere by your party.

Have you considered the crit chance is for the bleeding on crits , condition damage bonus on crits, and to fully use viper/grieving type stats?
It's +100 ferocity from signets when traited, you'd need 5 signets to have a +500 ferocity bonus without waiting for cooldowns. Not to mention those are all conditional crit chances except for the one relating to bursts (Burst Precision). Unless you can keep something permanently CC-ed or something has a breakbar then you won't be using Unsuspecting Foe.

Anyhow I misinterpreted what the topic poster was getting at, but I don't see Arenanet changing the traitline completely just because people want to use it on a power build (perhaps Dual Wielding , Opportunist, and the Furious trait if they deem it to be worth changing). Save for Radiance on guardian, you are looking at a similar scenario on pretty much every class.
See Chaos on mesmer, Corruption on rev, Curses on necro, Firearms on engineer, Deadly Arts on thief (which is run on power builds despite the minor traits applying conditions), Earth traitline on eles (seeing how the minors are mostly defensive), and to a lesser extent Wilderness Survival on ranger (which is never run on power rangers unless it is in competitive modes for the prot) . Minor traits on a condition traitline are always condition focused.

That is not to say Calm the Storm's suggestions are not better for the traitline (I have not reviewed it in detail and some such as aegis on crit seem extremely unlikely), but I don't think it is likely that the entire traitline be changed unless Arenanet feels it is actually an issue.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Have you considered the crit chance is for the bleeding on crits , condition damage bonus on crits, and to fully use viper/grieving type stats?
It's +100 ferocity from signets when traited, you'd need 5 signets to have a +500 ferocity bonus without waiting for cooldowns. Not to mention those are all conditional crit chances except for the one relating to bursts (Burst Precision). Unless you can keep something permanently CC-ed or something has a breakbar then you won't be using Unsuspecting Foe.

The bleeds are very little duration for the on crit effect. Furious would be a better argument to make, but even power builds can use that extra adrenaline.

The signet trait also procs off of it's proc of Lesser SoM. Just attacking things will upkeep 300 ferocity for you with no actual signets equipped. UF is for burst windows, like Bulls -> WWA or 100B, or now if you are fighting a defiant foe.

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Anyhow I misinterpreted what the topic poster was getting at, but I don't see Arenanet changing the traitline completely just because people want to use it on a power build (perhaps Dual Wielding , Opportunist, and the Furious trait if they deem it to be worth changing). Save for Radiance on guardian, you are looking at a similar scenario on pretty much every class.
See Chaos on mesmer, Corruption on rev, Curses on necro, Firearms on engineer, Deadly Arts on thief (which is run on power builds despite the minor traits applying conditions), Earth traitline on eles (seeing how the minors are mostly defensive), and to a lesser extent Wilderness Survival on ranger (which is never run on power rangers unless it is in competitive modes for the prot) . Minor traits on a condition traitline are always condition focused.

Dual Wielding needs to be replaced, not for the sake of power builds, but because it has no purpose anymore. Opportunist is frankly weak and needs to be removed for something better. Furious is one of the better traits out there.

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That is not to say Calm the Storm's suggestions are not better for the traitline (I have not reviewed it in detail and some such as aegis on crit seem extremely unlikely), but I don't think it is likely that the entire traitline be changed unless Arenanet feels it is actually an issue.

The trait line needs to be changed because it is grossly out of date and is filled with traits that serve no real purpose. It is a traitline where all the bad warrior trait ideas ended up. There are a few good ones, but they are limited.

Burst Precision really should be a duration that is tiered on adrenaline use.

Signet Mastery is great, but getting on a mount clears all the stacks, which limits it to a great degree.

UF is great, against a foe with no stun locks or a defiance bar.

Wounding Precisions is boring AF, but is the only real condi trait in it's tier so is BIS by default. Ditto really for Blademaster, which is just more stats and CD reduction and nothing special. Furious is good for the adrenaline gain. Personally I would not mind it's stat bonus to be on expertise rather than on condition damage, and for gaining a stack to refresh the durations of existing stacks.

[Infusion.7149]

34 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The bleeds are very little duration for the on crit effect. Furious would be a better argument to make, but even power builds can use that extra adrenaline.

The signet trait also procs off of it's proc of Lesser SoM. Just attacking things will upkeep 300 ferocity for you with no actual signets equipped. UF is for burst windows, like Bulls -> WWA or 100B, or now if you are fighting a defiant foe.

Dual Wielding needs to be replaced, not for the sake of power builds, but because it has no purpose anymore. Opportunist is frankly weak and needs to be removed for something better. Furious is one of the better traits out there.

The trait line needs to be changed because it is grossly out of date and is filled with traits that serve no real purpose. It is a traitline where all the bad warrior trait ideas ended up. There are a few good ones, but they are limited.

Burst Precision really should be a duration that is tiered on adrenaline use.

Signet Mastery is great, but getting on a mount clears all the stacks, which limits it to a great degree.

UF is great, against a foe with no stun locks or a defiance bar.

Wounding Precisions is boring AF, but is the only real condi trait in it's tier so is BIS by default. Ditto really for Blademaster, which is just more stats and CD reduction and nothing special. Furious is good for the adrenaline gain. Personally I would not mind it's stat bonus to be on expertise rather than on condition damage, and for gaining a stack to refresh the durations of existing stacks.

If you compare the traits to other classes' they are largely within the same realm.
For example for your example of bleeding on crits (Bloodlust) see:

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharpshooter
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharpened_Edges
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Barbed_Precision

Furious has been changed in the recent past already (August 2022), but I think 25 stacks is unrealistic for most people. There's still an adrenaline payoff so I could see why Arenanet would hesitate to change it again.

Signet Mastery is inherently dependent on the build, otherwise you are looking at a damage bonus below 50% health on the target. 300 ferocity when below 50% health is +20% critical damage half the time, which is akin to +10% crit damage bonus. In WvW for a brief period we were running Signet of Fury to preload Arc Divider, but taking Arms would be unlikely due to minimal channeled blocks in largescale and more effects of aegis.

Dual Wielding tends to be irrelevant but not useless per say, if you think about the balance of builds that don't have quickness already. That makes it still usable on builds that are openworld or in competitive modes where quickness is harder to come by provided someone can make offhand axe/mace/dagger/sword work. I don't know if you remember but I even suggested a ferocity or some other bonus for when you have quickness already to make it more relevant in instanced content.

Considering Unsuspecting Foe was a trait that was changed in recent memory (November 29, 2022 patch) I don't think Arenanet is intent on changing it yet again.

The traits you call "boring AF" also exist in some fashion on other classes.

The reason why I am taking time to express this to you because I play every class and I know a few of you on the warrior forum are kind of in an echo chamber. Development time would be spent to completely overhaul the traitline and there are far more pressing issues than trying to use a traitline clearly labeled for conditions on a power build.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you compare the traits to other classes' they are largely within the same realm.
For example for your example of bleeding on crits (Bloodlust) see:

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharpshooter
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharpened_Edges
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Barbed_Precision

Furious has been changed in the recent past already (August 2022), but I think 25 stacks is unrealistic for most people. There's still an adrenaline payoff so I could see why Arenanet would hesitate to change it again.

Signet Mastery is inherently dependent on the build, otherwise you are looking at a damage bonus below 50% health on the target. 300 ferocity when below 50% health is +20% critical damage half the time, which is akin to +10% crit damage bonus. In WvW for a brief period we were running Signet of Fury to preload Arc Divider, but taking Arms would be unlikely due to minimal channeled blocks in largescale and more effects of aegis.

Dual Wielding tends to be irrelevant but not useless per say, if you think about the balance of builds that don't have quickness already. That makes it still usable on builds that are openworld or in competitive modes where quickness is harder to come by provided someone can make offhand axe/mace/dagger/sword work. I don't know if you remember but I even suggested a ferocity or some other bonus for when you have quickness already to make it more relevant in instanced content.

Considering Unsuspecting Foe was a trait that was changed in recent memory (November 29, 2022 patch) I don't think Arenanet is intent on changing it yet again.

The traits you call "boring AF" also exist in some fashion on other classes.

The reason why I am taking time to express this to you because I play every class and I know a few of you on the warrior forum are kind of in an echo chamber. Development time would be spent to completely overhaul the traitline and there are far more pressing issues than trying to use a traitline clearly labeled for conditions on a power build.

A few thoughts:

 

1) The fact that ANet has tweaked some things in Arms recently doesn't mean they can't or won't do further reworks in the future.  It may well have been within their current bandwidth to make small changes to the existing framework rather than re-invent the traitline like they did with Defense.

 

2) The fact that other professions have similar traits doesn't mean that "Arms is fine" or anything of the like.  At the end of the day, it's irrelevant what they have or what works for them; what matters is what works for Warrior (or whatever class we're focusing on).  And Arms is clearly suboptimal for most builds and most game modes.  That's why it remains a good candidate for future reworks.

 

3) You keep referring to Arms as a "condi trait line," but that is not true.  It is very clearly both condi AND critical hits--hence traits like Unsuspecting Foe, Burst Precision, Sundering Burst (which doubles its benefits on crit), and even signet mastery (whose stacking ferocity bonus applies only to, you guessed it, critical hits).  

As an aside, I think actually one of the weakest parts of Arms is the fact that it tries, in some places, to marry critical chance and conditions--e.g., Wounding Precision, Bloodlust, and Furious.  It is often suboptimal to force condi builds to invest heavily in precision, and it prejudices against gear types like Carrion, Dire, Trailblazer, etc.  That's not good design.

 

4) That's not how signet mastery works.  Each signet you use grants a buff stack of +100 ferocity; max 5 stacks.  The trait itself will proc "lesser signet of might" every 25s when you hit a target <50% health.  This means you can maintain 2ish stacks of ferocity buff even without running any signets.  This corresponds to about +14% critical dmg; this dmg buff persists regardless of whether or not your current target is above/below 50% health. 

 

5) I don't necessarily disagree that ANet could/should have other priorities when it comes to Warrior.  Fixing BSW and reworking sword and mace (and longbow and rifle and...) come to mind.  But Arms is up there.  If skillfully done, and especially if they incorporated some sustain/defensive mechanics within it, Arms could absolutely see play in competitive modes at the very least.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Signet Mastery is inherently dependent on the build, otherwise you are looking at a damage bonus below 50% health on the target. 300 ferocity when below 50% health is +20% critical damage half the time, which is akin to +10% crit damage bonus. In WvW for a brief period we were running Signet of Fury to preload Arc Divider, but taking Arms would be unlikely due to minimal channeled blocks in largescale and more effects of aegis.

It is a 1m long buff per stack. You carry it from fight to fight and can use SoM to prime it if you really want to. It isn't +300 ferocity only when a target is below 50% health. The only thing that Anet really needs to do to it is to have it not clear the stacks when you mount up.

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Dual Wielding tends to be irrelevant but not useless per say, if you think about the balance of builds that don't have quickness already. That makes it still usable on builds that are openworld or in competitive modes where quickness is harder to come by provided someone can make offhand axe/mace/dagger/sword work. I don't know if you remember but I even suggested a ferocity or some other bonus for when you have quickness already to make it more relevant in instanced content.

Except that core warrior has so much quickness access now that a 20% IAS trait that doesn't stack with it is de facto useless.

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Considering Unsuspecting Foe was a trait that was changed in recent memory (November 29, 2022 patch) I don't think Arenanet is intent on changing it yet again.

No, UF does not need to be changed, I did state that it is one of the good ones remember?

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The traits you call "boring AF" also exist in some fashion on other classes.

Yes, and Anet has stated that they are trying to move away from stat converter traits, because they are boring. That is one reason why Armored Attack got removed from Defense.

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The reason why I am taking time to express this to you because I play every class and I know a few of you on the warrior forum are kind of in an echo chamber. Development time would be spent to completely overhaul the traitline and there are far more pressing issues than trying to use a traitline clearly labeled for conditions on a power build.

Preaching to the choir at this point mate, because I play the other classes as well. Other classes are indeed in need of weapon and traitline overhauls and I want them to get attention as well. Necro Daggers and Staff. Guardian Hammer. Soulbeast MH Dagger. But leave that discussion to the mains of those classes as they will know best what is lacking, old, and no longer used.

There are a lot of things that need updating. But warrior went through a very long dry spell (go count the number of times that the warrior section was completely empty between Feb2020 and June2022) of barely getting touched until the past half year and they are still playing catchup with it. They need to update Arms, OH Dagger, OH Mace, OH Sword, Meditations, and to a lesser extent MH Mace, MH Sword, Kick, Throw Bolas, and the Armaments from BSW. Do any of us expect that right now, no. But that does not mean that the afore mentioned items are not in need of dev attention.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Arms needs:

Life Steal.

More ferocity bonuses in GM tier.

Dmg modifier "increase outgoing dmg to vulnerable foes" on Sundering Bursts.

And a minor about flanking/backstabbing granting Fury and or a dmg increase.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

As to what "Job" belongs to Arms:

When the traitlines gave stats, each gave a primary attribute, and a secondary attribute. The 4 primaries are Power, Precision, Toughness, Vitality. The profession Mechanic traitline affected the mechanic cooldown as its primary attribute.

Arms was the Precision primary line with condition as it's secondary attribute. Its identity has always been critical strikes first, condition damage second.

[eXruina.4956]

at the very least i wish they rework those minor traits so they would be beneficial to both power and condi builds. as they are at the moment, they don't really benefit power builds which make them dead traits.

 

warrior condition capabilities could use a boost as well honestly, i mean warrior is clearly power dps dominant across all specs. and in comparison to other condition specs warrior is clearly lacking.

 

thematically i could see space for poison on bladed and piercing weapons, and confusion on blunt weapons, as well as fear.

 

i also really, really wish they rework flurry into something more practical and usable.

Edited January 20, 2023 by eXruina.4956

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, eXruina.4956 said:

at the very least i wish they rework those minor traits so they would be beneficial to both power and condi builds. as they are at the moment, they don't really benefit power builds which make them dead traits.

 

warrior condition capabilities could use a boost as well honestly, i mean warrior is clearly power dps dominant across all specs. and in comparison to other condition specs warrior is clearly lacking.

 

thematically i could see space for poison on bladed and piercing weapons, and confusion on blunt weapons, as well as fear.

I can easily see Wounding Precision being changed to inflict Torment when you inflict bleed, or several stacks at once if you inflict a movement impairing condition. Maces I think, if confusion is brought back to warrior, should have it baked into the MH and OH.

[eXruina.4956]

42 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Life Steal.

i love this, i think lifesteal would be so awesome. 💪

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Some changes they could make to existing traits:

 

Burst Precision: 

Burst skills have 100% critical chance

Gain a stacking critical chance bonus for each bar of adrenaline spent (+5% crit chance per stack; max 4 stacks.  Stacks gained in the same fashion as adrenal healing/berserker's power = 1 +[bar of adrenaline spent])

 

Between providing sources of Fury (which has +25% critical chance thanks to the Arms minor) and the stacking crit chance buff, you could get +45% crit chance from the traitline, which is on par with the 40-50% Guardian gets from Radiance.

 

Unsuspecting Foe:

Cast Lesser signet of Fury when you disable a foe (CD 5s).

 

Lesser Signet of Fury:

Gain 10 Adrenaline

Gain +250 precision and ferocity for 4s.

 

This provides another dmg boost for power builds.  Also synergizes with Signet mastery.

[Zekent.3652]

Arms is literally just Firearms but worse.

[Infusion.7149]

Some observations I made yesterday since I can't remember the last time I played arms on a non-condi build:
You can keep 3 stacks of lesser signet of might up without equipping signets provided the target has a load of health or heals itself. This is not going to be more than 3 stacks of the ferocity buff realistically since even if you are fighting trash mobs there is a 25s internal cooldown.

I never said "Arms is fine", I said expecting an entire traitline when there are select traits that could use help is unrealistic.

The most Furious buff you can realistically achieve is around 20 stacks. It's heavily predicated on running multi-hit skills such as Flurry; without Berserker spec you aren't able to output large amounts of burning. As I stated above, the reason why I don't believe it will get any more changes is due to condi Berserker benchmark's current standing and the existence of a secondary effect on it (adrenaline). Of course lowering the number of total stacks and increasing their effectiveness would be good, but the August patch did this already by improving the per stack bonus from 10 to 15.

If you want to compare to Firearms for example, some of the warrior Arms traits are actually better (i.e. compare Bloodlust to Sharpshooter and Serrated Steel). The main difference is a ferocity bonus with fury on Engineer so the best equivalency would be an addition of a ferocity bonus while under quickness (as I suggested prior) to make quickness more relevant while using Dual Wielding. That way you would have two irrelevant minors only (Deep Strikes, BloodLust). In the meantime if using a power build you'd probably run Signet Mastery, Unsuspecting Foe  or Sundering Burst if lacking vuln, and Furious for adrenaline gain. It's still trying to shoehorn a condi traitline for power however, even if it's "critical chance and condi" and not just condi since you would need crit chance for all other hits against a target that doesn't have a defiance bar especially if you aren't a bladesworn. It doesn't exist in a vacuum and is competing with Discipline, Strength (5% crit chance inherently too), and most recently Tactics/Defense.

The way I could see Arenanet change up Arms is probably by swapping the positions of minors that are condi only. That is pretty much wishful thinking however.

Radiance is a special case since the ferocity bonus is inherent on the minor traits, but unless you are using  F1 on Dragonhunter the minor traits don't apply to power guardians since they only affect Virtue of Justice (i.e. 2 of 3 minor are irrelevant to power builds). Power guardians run 3-3-3 which gives resolution on heal, strike damage bonus under resolution (i.e. a 10% damage modifier), and 25%-40% crit chance under resolution with might application pulsed.

Looking at necro would show you that not every profession has a parity between power and condi (power necros are pretty bad). I would say that in most cases at least in PVE (nobody really runs condi in WVW and in PVP warrior doesn't have that much condition diversity for cover conditions) condi berserker is about on par with power berserker/spellbreaker (at least up until the change that buffed the damage) with the tradeoff being  berserker actually has use of a ranged weapon.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The signet from the trait also has it's CD reduced by the trait.