Healer DPS Hybrid the future of Instanced content

[Infusion.7149]

9 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I bit of both columns, for this truly to become a Meta we need both good DPS healing gear and also trait reworks. 

I feel like it's a bit of DnD approach, which is let Healers play the game aswell. Sort of original goal of Guilds Wars 2.

Specter is what you're looking for if you mean a pure DPS that also heals while DPS-ing in full viper. Ritualist geared specter also does the same thing (rthe healing is mainly from Consume Shadows which does not scale with healing power) and unlike a DPS in healing gear it actually loses far less damage. This is especially true since the triggers for torment don't rely on high crit chance. Per SC, this results in :

• Viper (default) : 100% damage and 100% Shadow Force / healing
• Carrion : 95% damage and 176% Shadow Force / healing
• Ritualist : 93% damage and 192% Shadow Force / healing

Some of the specs you are saying could be used as DPS healers are completely not conducive to it without major hits to damage (condi virtuoso requires massive amounts of crit chance which stops it from plaguedoctor, you'd need seraph gear ; power virtuoso could only use zealot's or marshal's ; vindicator needs to swap from archemorus which is a large damage loss since you also spend energy not using damage skills). The only things that would make sense in your original post are the tempest and untamed you mention, which are alacrity providers anyway; scourge would only be used in a carry and not in a normal group. Spirit of Nature doesn't heal for all that much if you aren't running healing power (merely 101) so it would be in a similar fashion as using blood magic on scourge but with less DPS loss especially on alac untamed, using water spirit on the other hand is a major hit to your pet's boons which is why you see it on alac untamed and not DPS untamed.

There is DPS healing gear already but for the obvious reasons the condi healers are far better:

• Plaguedoctor (no power or ferocity nor precision)  --- used previously on scourge
• Seraph (no power or ferocity so it is a condi DPS gear) --- a bit higher DPS variant of celebrand
• Marshal's (major healing power) --- no boon duration or expertise , used previously on scourges
• Shaman's (major vitality so it is of limited usefulness) --- this could be swapped to major condition damage or healing power if it is to be more useful, extra vitality is unlikely to be better than Plaguedoctor
• Zealot's (no boon duration) --- no ferocity whatsoever is a major damage loss (you trade all your ferocity for healing power)
• Crusader's (only useful if you crit cap without precision, has toughness)
• Magi's (no actual damage stats other than precision)
• Apothecary (has toughness instead of vitality, healing power major stat)

Edited January 23, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Specter is what you're looking for if you mean a pure DPS that also heals while DPS-ing in full viper. Ritualist geared specter also does the same thing (rthe healing is mainly from Consume Shadows which does not scale with healing power) and unlike a DPS in healing gear it actually loses far less damage. This is especially true since the triggers for torment don't rely on high crit chance. Per SC, this results in :

• Viper (default) : 100% damage and 100% Shadow Force / healing
• Carrion : 95% damage and 176% Shadow Force / healing
• Ritualist : 93% damage and 192% Shadow Force / healing

Some of the specs you are saying could be used as DPS healers are completely not conducive to it without major hits to damage (condi virtuoso requires massive amounts of crit chance which stops it from plaguedoctor, you'd need seraph gear ; power virtuoso could only use zealot's or marshal's ; vindicator needs to swap from archemorus which is a large damage loss since you also spend energy not using damage skills). The only things that would make sense in your original post are the tempest and untamed you mention, which are alacrity providers anyway; scourge would only be used in a carry and not in a normal group. Spirit of Nature doesn't heal for all that much if you aren't running healing power (merely 101) so it would be in a similar fashion as using blood magic on scourge but with less DPS loss especially on alac untamed, using water spirit on the other hand is a major hit to your pet's boons which is why you see it on alac untamed and not DPS untamed.

There is DPS healing gear already but for the obvious reasons the condi healers are far better:

• Plaguedoctor (no power or ferocity nor precision)  --- used previously on scourge
• Seraph (no power or ferocity so it is a condi DPS gear) --- a bit higher DPS variant of celebrand
• Marshal's (major healing power) --- no boon duration or expertise , used previously on scourges
• Shaman's (major vitality so it is of limited usefulness) --- this could be swapped to major condition damage or healing power if it is to be more useful, extra vitality is unlikely to be better than Plaguedoctor
• Zealot's (no boon duration) --- no ferocity whatsoever is a major damage loss (you trade all your ferocity for healing power)
• Crusader's (only useful if you crit cap without precision, has toughness)
• Magi's (no actual damage stats other than precision)
• Apothecary (has toughness instead of vitality, healing power major stat)

Love it, Specter is one of the classes I want to play around with next. 

Right now I'm mostly using Revenant but I want to return the Meduim armor classes since I have Legendary armor for them. 

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There is DPS healing gear already but for the obvious reasons the condi healers are far better:

• Plaguedoctor (no power or ferocity nor precision)  --- used previously on scourge
• Seraph (no power or ferocity so it is a condi DPS gear) --- a bit higher DPS variant of celebrand
• Marshal's (major healing power) --- no boon duration or expertise , used previously on scourges
• Shaman's (major vitality so it is of limited usefulness) --- this could be swapped to major condition damage or healing power if it is to be more useful, extra vitality is unlikely to be better than Plaguedoctor
• Zealot's (no boon duration) --- no ferocity whatsoever is a major damage loss (you trade all your ferocity for healing power)
• Crusader's (only useful if you crit cap without precision, has toughness)
• Magi's (no actual damage stats other than precision)
• Apothecary (has toughness instead of vitality, healing power major stat)

I was thinking that having something like an equivalent of Diviner that has healing power rather then concentration might go a long way. And possibly a similar equivalent to Ritualist for condi builds (maybe going healing power and condition damage as primary stats, vitality and expertise as secondary stats).

Ultimately, for a "DPS heal" to be practical, you would need:

1) A suitable stat set (see above);

2) Suitable performance - being able to expect similar performance from having healdps and two boondps to what you'd expect from a boonheal, a boondps, and a fulldps;

3) A specialisation that explicitly doesn't bring one of the high-demand boons, so ArenaNet can tweak the numbers so that the healdps is good enough to achieve criteria 2 without creating a boonhealdps monster that just raises the bar to achieving criteria 2. Vindicator and scourge both fit or have the potential to fit this criteria.

Players being open to it would be another consideration. I've ran into some ridiculously picky commanders. If criteria 2 could be achieved, though, than premade groups and less rigid LFG commanders could be in a position to say "okay, player A wants to play alacdps, player B wants to play quickdps, and player C wants to play healdps vindicator - cool, that's that subsquad sorted!" Most LFGs might stick to boonheal, boondps, and 3dps because that's easier, but that doesn't mean that the option to bring different configurations couldn't exist.

[Jobber.6348]

What you trying to run? Solid Ocean? 

[Vidit.7108]

You could buff inspiration's healing by about 300% and it would still be a deeply flawed hybrid dps/heal build for virtuoso that i wouldn't completely trust in my group.
I have to ask if you play healers in PvE and understand what your average static or PUG expects to get out of one.

This used to sort of exist back when the druid/chorno meta was around, the healer could be geared for healing and dps, players moved away from that when alacrity and quick got split. What you're asking for is three players to run some type of support and it gets very messy when you are putting a group together. Few people gear for pure healing and when they do it's to run a healer support that covers both subgroups. If your dps/healer suddenly decides to leave and you've built the rest of the group around one you're not getting a new one.

Also Anet doesn't really support doing this anymore. Balance Patches over the last several years have made playing hybrid dps/healers a lot harder than they used to be with much deeper trade offs. Most famously the Scourge nerf a few years ago and most recently the tome changes on firebrand have made running celebrand harder to master. Recent changes haven't been fostering this play style and while they could go in the opposite direction they've not shown they're going to any time soon. They probably expect the likes of vindicator to heal in other game modes and as soon as it becomes common in PvE it will get nerfed. DPS/Healers are more likely to be supplement healers than be relied upon, and where they are relied on it's in very experienced groups that need little healing.
 

[Jski.6180]

You cant just do a pure power dmg build in gw2 you have to have crit and crit dmg to have usefully power dmg so i do not think you will ever see an healing/power dmg build BUT you can do condi dmg healing to an nice effect. Condi only need condi dmg and maybe condi duration both of witch can come with healing power. The thing about condi dmg its much more class restives then power dmg so your traped with the class condi dmg type.

I cant for the life of me get an condi dmg/ healing tempest build to work right but that maybe more on my end then any thing else.

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

You cant just do a pure power dmg build in gw2 you have to have crit and crit dmg to have usefully power dmg so i do not think you will ever see an healing/power dmg build BUT you can do condi dmg healing to an nice effect. Condi only need condi dmg and maybe condi duration both of witch can come with healing power. The thing about condi dmg its much more class restives then power dmg so your traped with the class condi dmg type.

I cant for the life of me get an condi dmg/ healing tempest build to work right but that maybe more on my end then any thing else.

I never said you had to have amazing DPS just higher than the normal 5k a pure healer can get. 

If a Healer can porivide boons that's fine aswell but the resurrection bots we see are pretty amazing when they work. 

@Vidit.7108Another good reason to use Virtuoso is the ability to have 2 feedbacks for rezing on a very low cooldown. It's really is amazing on Pugs. 

[the krytan assassin.9235]

48 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I never said you had to have amazing DPS just higher than the normal 5k a pure healer can get. 

If a Healer can porivide boons that's fine aswell but the resurrection bots we see are pretty amazing when they work. 

@Vidit.7108

Im not sure what you mean with 5k dps on a healer. If i push my rotation abit on ele i can even reach that with full minstrel. My cele which i normally use for HAT (and can upkeep like 15k+ hps, only has 10-15% less healoutput then minstrel) can already deal ~14k dps on Golem. If you really want to push your dps you can get like 18k if you take fire traitline, some dps utilities and swap to leadership runes instead but thats at the cost of over 25% of your healing output, so not really worth it. Also when more healing is required your damage will drop quite fast since most healing weapons/stances etc dont provide decent dps at the same time. 

 

So in order to compete with that you'll need to be able to deal ~6k more dps in both scenarios to compete as a heal dps so around 13-20k dps depending on the amount of heals required. 

On top of that you still need to provide more then enough healing, so you need a considerable amount of healing gear, sigils, runes and traits. Last but not least is the boon uptime of the protective Boons. Most offensive supports provide barely any defensive boonsupport. The only 2 that i can think of are qcata and qherald.

And this still leaves you with the problem of regen. Its one of the most OP heals ingame, especially if you need to keep your party above 90% up for scholars. Unless you're able to upkeep regen without any boonduration you're going to lose out on ~300hps/party member. 

 

The only reason hscourge/plaguedoctor scourge works is due to its unique ability. If you can't provide such unique &overpowered ability like that, you'll simply be a suboptimal pick for heal if you can't provide alac/quick

 

 

[Jski.6180]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I never said you had to have amazing DPS just higher than the normal 5k a pure healer can get. 

If a Healer can porivide boons that's fine aswell but the resurrection bots we see are pretty amazing when they work. 

@Vidit.7108Another good reason to use Virtuoso is the ability to have 2 feedbacks for rezing on a very low cooldown. It's really is amazing on Pugs. 

You can be an dps boon support with out healing. The best boon duration is on divers gears that is dps gear. For pve its good though your going to be an glass caono.

There allways cele though your power dmg never going to out do your condi and support. I have tryed marshles mixed with cele for wvw roming it kind of works but the build more about self healing then healing others though you can still heal. I would love to see an power / healing power main crit chase / crit dmg off gear set and just trying to pull a "mages support build" that sadly not in the game.